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Author Topic: Was Jesus Omniscient?  (Read 7520 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: July 06, 2010, 11:26:32 PM »

Was on another Christian Forum and was participating in a discussion on the authorship of Genesis. There were a few Protestants that were saying Jesus said specifically that Moses wrote Genesis. Then there were other Protestants that argued that he may have, but that we know better today...

I posted a reply to which one Protestant reacted to, and it got me to thinking, what is actually the Orthodox position on Christ, was he omniscient? Did he know all things? Did he not know all things? Was it both (a mystery! Smiley)? What as Orthodox should we affirm since this is essentially a Christological thing...
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2010, 11:51:04 PM »

Our Lord Jesus Christ said He was not omniscient, hence the Orthodox position is that our Lord Jesus Christ was not omniscient.

Regarding Jesus' words about Genesis, you must show me the quote. Jesus talked about the Law of Moses, but I doubt He explicitly stated that Moses wrote entire the book of Genesis in particular. Moses received the Law and passed it to the Jews. Jesus said that the Law prophesied Him, and this is explainable. Secondly, you might be able to refer to "books of Moses" as a title even if Moses didn't write them himself. The ancients apparently accepted ghost authors as legitimate way of authoring things. Hence, the Gospel of Matthew, which in Russian might be more accurate- they call it the Gospel "according to Matthew," ie. what Matthew passed on.
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2010, 11:51:38 PM »

Was on another Christian Forum and was participating in a discussion on the authorship of Genesis. There were a few Protestants that were saying Jesus said specifically that Moses wrote Genesis. Then there were other Protestants that argued that he may have, but that we know better today...

I posted a reply to which one Protestant reacted to, and it got me to thinking, what is actually the Orthodox position on Christ, was he omniscient? Did he know all things? Did he not know all things? Was it both (a mystery! Smiley)? What as Orthodox should we affirm since this is essentially a Christological thing...
Yes, look at the Creed.  Christ is part of the HOly Trinity.  These are exactly the issues that were discussed and argued and settled at the first Ecumenical Councils.
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2010, 11:54:11 PM »

Our Lord Jesus Christ said He was not omniscient, hence the Orthodox position is that our Lord Jesus Christ was not omniscient.
Could you please provide a source for this?

I'd always assumed that Christ had all the attributes of God, including omniscience, even while on earth. He was still fully divine, after all.
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 12:25:45 AM »

I should clarify: I expect that now that Jesus is with His father in heaven He knows all things. Is there any indication that the saints who are with God are not omniscient? If the saints are not omniscient in heaven, then it seems possible that Christ isn't, but I expect that God tells them everything.


However, the OP was asking about Jesus' words that supposedly referred to Moses' authorship. And when Christ said that He is not omniscient, He was on earth.

The question seems interesting, Apples, and I want to ask you about it. Why should we assume that Christ knew everything when He was on earth? God knows everything, so Christ must know it if He is God? What do you think of that logic?

IreneOlinyk: Do you believe this, that if the Trinity is true, then Christ must have known everything?


One way to get around this is to say that God the father is the source, while Christ is His arm and Word. God spoke, and there was light. If God does not have time, how can Christ say that there can be any actions of which He, Christ does not know? How to get around this metaphysical problem? Perhaps the Word Christ was referring to had not yet been spoken, so Christ, living on earth, did not yet know when they would be? This seems like a satisfactory answer. However, it only applies to the particular verse I know, and critics have claimed there are others.

In other words, I can explain how Jesus can be God's Arm and not know things that have not yet happened when he was on earth, but I don't know if Jesus showed that he did not know the past, or how I would explain it. For example, when he was 13 he learned from rabbis. Why would he have to do that if he already knew the Holy Word? Maybe just to get a better sense of how the teachers of it thought? But he would have already been in heaven, and should have seen this.

Consequently, it seems that Jesus' knowledge was very limited compared to God the father's I am afraid.
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2010, 12:30:54 AM »

However, the OP was asking about Jesus' words that supposedly referred to Moses' authorship. And when Christ said that He is not omniscient, He was on earth.
But when did He say that? Is that in the Bible or any Tradition?

The question seems interesting, Apples. Why should we assume that Christ knew everything when He was on earth? God knows everything, so Christ must know it if He is God? What do you think of that logic?
I don't see anything wrong with that logic.
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2010, 12:37:05 AM »

However, the OP was asking about Jesus' words that supposedly referred to Moses' authorship. And when Christ said that He is not omniscient, He was on earth.
But when did He say that? Is that in the Bible or any Tradition?

The question seems interesting, Apples. Why should we assume that Christ knew everything when He was on earth? God knows everything, so Christ must know it if He is God? What do you think of that logic?
I don't see anything wrong with that logic.

OK, but if Jesus did not in fact know everything, would it mean He was Not God? Would it be significant evidence against Christ's divinity? I hope not.
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2010, 12:48:43 AM »

Their quotes were:
John 7:19
John 5:46
Matthew 19:8

Saying that these quotes suggest or say Christ said that Moses wrote Genesis...

I kind of thought that Christ is both omniscient and not and that we ought to leave it at a mystery, but I wanted to wait until I actually heard what the consensus was.
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 01:01:29 AM »

Their quotes were:
John 7:19
John 5:46
Matthew 19:8

Saying that these quotes suggest or say Christ said that Moses wrote Genesis...

I kind of thought that Christ is both omniscient and not and that we ought to leave it at a mystery, but I wanted to wait until I actually heard what the consensus was.

Thanks.

John 7:19 Has not Moses given you the law?   
This doesnt say Moses wrote the book of Genesis.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jesus told his apostles that the Law of Moses concerned Him. Consequently, Moses writing about Jesus in the Law doesn't technically mean Moses wrote the entire book of Genesis.

Matthew 19:8 :He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives.
Does modern scholarship claim that Moses had nothing to do with writing the divorce law?

Unfortunately, none of the verses say Moses wrote the entire book of Genesis, although I think John 5:46 suggests that Moses wrote some of it.



Quote
I kind of thought that Christ is both omniscient and not and that we ought to leave it at a mystery, but I wanted to wait until I actually heard what the consensus was.

If Jesus is at God's right hand in heaven, then maybe He does know all things in heaven. On earth He said he doesn't know all things, so He did not know all things. When Christ was on earth, in a way He was still in heaven, because heaven is eternal.

However, I am not certain that He knew all things when in heaven either. It seems He would, but then I am getting confused again why He did not on earth. Maybe being human limited his faculties before the resurrection. Sorry, I am confused.



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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 01:26:06 AM »

I kind of thought that Christ is both omniscient and not and that we ought to leave it at a mystery, but I wanted to wait until I actually heard what the consensus was.

So, some sort of superposition?
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2010, 01:28:54 AM »

I kind of thought that Christ is both omniscient and not and that we ought to leave it at a mystery, but I wanted to wait until I actually heard what the consensus was.

So, some sort of superposition?

Again, it's a mystery Smiley

"In the tomb with the body... In hades with the soul... in paradise with the thief... on the throne with the Father wast thou oh Christ, filling all things"
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 01:39:39 AM »

I kind of thought that Christ is both omniscient and not and that we ought to leave it at a mystery, but I wanted to wait until I actually heard what the consensus was.

So, some sort of superposition?

Again, it's a mystery Smiley

"In the tomb with the body... In hades with the soul... in paradise with the thief... on the throne with the Father wast thou oh Christ, filling all things"

True, but doesn't answer whether Christ was omniscient in heaven, and why he wouldn't be omniscient on earth if he was in heaven.
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2010, 01:42:33 AM »

Mark 5:30
    Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

Mark 13:32
    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 01:47:54 AM »

However, the OP was asking about Jesus' words that supposedly referred to Moses' authorship. And when Christ said that He is not omniscient, He was on earth.
But when did He say that? Is that in the Bible or any Tradition?

The question seems interesting, Apples. Why should we assume that Christ knew everything when He was on earth? God knows everything, so Christ must know it if He is God? What do you think of that logic?
I don't see anything wrong with that logic.

OK, but if Jesus did not in fact know everything, would it mean He was Not God? Would it be significant evidence against Christ's divinity? I hope not.
Maybe this is just my Catholic upbringing speaking, but something about God the Son not being omniscient just seems wrong to me.

Did any of the councils address this?
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2010, 01:48:53 AM »

Mark 5:30
    Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

Mark 13:32
    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Regarding Mark 5, I always understood (that is, regarding Orthodox teaching) that he actually knew who touched him, but asked for the sake of the Apostles (or was it the woman? I can't remember).
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2010, 02:10:15 AM »

Mark 5:30
    Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

Mark 13:32
    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Regarding Mark 5, I always understood (that is, regarding Orthodox teaching) that he actually knew who touched him, but asked for the sake of the Apostles (or was it the woman? I can't remember).

I am not sure how it would help the apostles, but maybe it would help the woman because she would have to speak up. The explanation is acceptable to me, although it seems that at first glance He implies that He doesn't know.
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2010, 02:55:28 AM »

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ said He was not omniscient, hence the Orthodox position is that our Lord Jesus Christ was not omniscient.

My dear rakovsky, the feast of the Raising of Lazarus is perhaps the clearest in showing Christ's omniescence. Here are some selections from the Vespers and Matins of this feast, which not only refer to the miraculous resurrection of a man dead for four days, but proclaim the mystery of the equal humanity and divinity of Christ:

O Fountain of wisdom and foreknowledge, You asked the companions of Martha when You came to Bethany: Where have you laid My friend Lazarus? Shedding for him tears of tender love, You called to him in Your compassion and raised him by Your voice, though he was four days dead; for You are Giver of life and Lord.

In the beginning You brought all creation out of nothing, and You know the secrets of our hearts; and now as Master You foretold the falling asleep of Lazarus to Your disciples.

O Christ, You became man, taking human nature from the Virgin, and as man You asked where Lazarus was buried, although as God You were not ignorant of this.

Displaying Your two energies, O Saviour, You made manifest Your two natures: for You are both God and man.

Though You are the Abyss of knowledge, You asked where they have laid the body of Lazarus. For it was Your purpose, O Giver of Life, to raise him from the dead.

Going from one place to another as a mortal man, You have appeared circumscribed; but, as God uncircumscribed, You fill all things.

O Lord who works miracles, standing in Bethany by the tomb of Lazarus, You shed tears for him in accordance with the law of nature, confirming the full reality of the flesh which You have taken, O Jesus my God.

The sisters of Lazarus stood beside Christ and, lamenting with bitter tears, they said to Him: “O Lord, Lazarus is dead.” And though as God He knew the place of burial, yet He asked them, “Where have you laid him?” Coming to the tomb, He called Lazarus that was four days dead; and he arose and worshipped the Lord who had raised him.

Foreknowing all things as Creator, You warned the disciples at Bethany, saying: “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep today.” And, though You were not ignorant, You asked: “Where have you laid him?” Weeping as a man, You prayed to the Father; You called Your friend Lazarus from hell, O Lord, and raised him when he had been four days dead. Therefore we cry to You: Accept, O Christ our God, the praise we dare to offer, and count us all worthy of Your glory.

You prayed to the Father, not because You are in need of any help, but to fulfil the mystery of Your Incarnation; and so, almighty Lord, You raised up a corpse that was four days dead.

Co-eternal with the Father, the Word that was revealed from the beginning as God, now offers prayers as man, though it is He that receives the prayers of all.

You are my might, O Lord, You are my power; You are my God, You are my joy. You were not separated from the Father, yet You have visited our poverty. Therefore with the Prophet Habakkuk I cry to You: Glory to Your power, O You who loves mankind.

As true God You knew of the falling asleep of Lazarus and announced it beforehand to Your disciples, giving them a proof, O Master, of the infinite power of Your divinity.

You who are by nature uncircumscribed was circumscribed in the flesh; coming to Bethany, O Master, as man You weep over Lazarus, and by Your power as God You raise him on the fourth day from the dead.

As mortal man You asked where Lazarus was buried; as Maker, You raised him from the dead by Your royal command. Hell was afraid of him when he cried out to You: “Praise the Lord and exalt Him above all for ever.”

As a mortal, You search for Lazarus; as God, You raise him by Your word, though he was four days dead. Therefore we sing Your praises forever.

As man You pray to the Father, as God You raise Lazarus. Therefore, O Christ, we sing Your praises forever.

You walk and weep and speak, my Saviour, showing the action of Your human nature; and, revealing Your divine nature, You raise Lazarus.

In ways beyond words, my Master and Saviour, You have brought about my salvation by the free will exercised in each of Your two natures.

O Christ, who is the Resurrection and the Life of man, standing by the tomb of Lazarus You have confirmed our faith in Your two natures, O forbearing Lord, proving that You were born from the pure Virgin as both God and man. For as man You asked, “Where is he buried?” and as God by Your life-giving command You raised him from the dead on the fourth day.

You have granted to Your disciples, O Christ, tokens of Your divinity, but You have humbled Yourself among the crowds, wishing to conceal it from them. Foreknowing all things as God, You have foretold to the apostles the death of Lazarus; yet at Bethany, when in the presence of the people, you have as man asked where Your friend was buried, being ignorant of this. But then You raised him four days after he was dead, and so he rendered manifest Your power as God. O almighty Lord, glory to You.


Why do I quote the hymnody of the Orthodox Church? Because it is what is read, chanted and sung in every single Orthodox church, and because it reflects and proclaims what the whole Church teaches and believes. If folks only made the effort to become familiar with the treasure which is Orthodox hymnography and iconography, a great number of "big" questions would be answered, and a lot of time and effort would be saved.
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2010, 03:14:09 AM »

LBK,

Thanks for your post about the song.

I don't see how we can say that Christ was omniscient when he was on earth when he so clearly and word for word states to the apostles that he did not know when the world would end, but that the Father knew this.

Hal
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2010, 03:32:38 AM »

LBK,

Thanks for your post about the song.

I don't see how we can say that Christ was omniscient when he was on earth when he so clearly and word for word states to the apostles that he did not know when the world would end, but that the Father knew this.

Hal

Indeed we can say, and must say, as Orthodox Christians, that Christ is omniscient, otherwise He could not be fully God as well as fully Man. There are other instances in scripture where it is clear that Christ knows all, yet chooses to limit the manifestation of His full omniscience and divinity to that which those mere mortals around Him can bear. Two obvious examples come to mind: His Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, and the passage in John 16:

12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2010, 03:41:50 AM »

Jesus knew everything:

Jesus said a third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that Jesus asked him a third time, “Do you love me?” and said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you.” (John 21:17)

but He ignored some of His knowledge:

But as for that day or hour no one knows it – neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son – except the Father. (Mark 13:32).

He will do the same on the Day of Judgment: He will not KNOW some of His disciples:

Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!’ (Matthew 25:11-12)
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2010, 10:24:48 AM »

Just a quick disclaimer to my post.  I think it's important to say that I personally believe that whenever we start talking about this sort of thing, we must understand we are going to be using human words, language and logic to attempt to express something that is essentially beyond our capabilities to "explain". So much of what I am personally going to say, and words that I use should be seen as more metaphor, allegory or just a downright failure to express subjects like "what was there before time began?" etc... Anyways, I only say that because what I'm about to say is going to really sound silly if taken absolutely literally.




True, but doesn't answer whether Christ was omniscient in heaven, and why he wouldn't be omniscient on earth if he was in heaven.

Exactly "when" are you talking about Christ being omniscient in heaven? (see how silly that sounds if taken literally?  Grin)

Do you mean NOW?  As in post Resurrection/Ascension? Or do you mean before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth?

I ask because I think it's important to know what one means when they say "Christ". In our age when most people talk about "Christ" they are they are talking about Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah (Christ) who was born, walked, lived, ate, drank, got a runny nose, probably had allergies, preached the Sermon on the Mount, died by Crucifixion, and if one is a Christian, was Resurrected 3 days later, then Ascended into heaven.

Or to put another way, when people talk about "Christ" they mean "Jesus"...Heck even some atheists refer to Jesus as "Christ" just because that's the terminology used to speak of Him.

So when you say, but doesn't answer whether Christ was omniscient in heaven, and why he wouldn't be omniscient on earth if he was in heaven. when are you talking about Christ being omniscient in heaven? I ask because I feel there is an important distinction to make, but I don't want to make it until I'm clear what it is you're refering to. (so as not to jump the gun and say something, when in fact you didn't mean what I thought you meant...)

Or put another way, just to clarify the point so I can clarify any future reply I might make. Wink


Thanks . . . .

NP



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« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2010, 10:48:29 AM »

Maybe this is just my Catholic upbringing speaking, but something about God the Son not being omniscient just seems wrong to me.

Did any of the councils address this?

Yes, the Christological Councils addressed this issue, along with many of the writings of the fathers for a couple of centuries (at least). This issue/question and how to express it is exactly what the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Councils really dug into. And IMO it's simply not as simple of an answer as some make it out to be. IMO the shortest answer to the question of "was Jesus omniscient" is yes and no! But then we come to the point issue I addressed in my disclaimer to my first reply, is that from there on it gets mightly tricky to talk about this stuff without sounding downright absurd if we take what others say literally, but then also it gets tricky to discuss this because of various issues within Church history where phrases and explanations were so easily misunderstood . . . and I think that misunderstanding can be true today as well. But if you want a brief answer I think it's appropriate to say "yes and no, it's a mystery" and to leave it at that. Because in reality I think most people, even theologians don't truly understand how any of this can be, and in a way that's kind of the point. It shows our ignorance of God, and makes us realize we do NOT know everything, and cannot know everything....the problem is of course we often think we CAN know everything and thus we demand others know we know, and well...things go bad from there. That's why Apophatic is so important to Orthodoxy. True, the Orthodox Councils have said a lot about this topic, but in the end even they only define what must be defined, and there was at least an attempt to keep speculation at a low. Anyways . . . . if one wants more technical and precise discussions well . . . . it's going to probably lead to more in depth, and possibly heated discussions. Partly because I don't see how one can address this without invariably getting around to Chalcedon and the Tome of Leo which is not appropriate for this particular forum. (though just a mention in passing is certainly acceptable)

Which actually, and this is the only reason I bring it up,  since you have a Catholic background, the Tome of Leo might be a good starting point for you. It's a more technical document, and makes a lot of sense especially to those with a more scholastic/western way of thinking about these types of questions. It's not perfect, nor is it the final say in such matters, but it might be a good place for you to begin, with the understanding that it is really a beginning. But it might make sense out of this question for you personally, which is why I am recommending it, even though I'm fully aware of it's weaknesses.


NP


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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2010, 11:47:41 AM »

I would say that when Christ said he doesn't know when the end will be, that this is not an issue of him being omniscient, but rather it's a part of his position in the Holy Trinity. As he said, only the Father knows, so the Father will be the one to send him.
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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2010, 12:03:53 PM »

Let's not forget the possibility that St. Mark and St. John represent different theological interpretations of the life of the LORD. They were both collecting information and couching them in a narrative which they were writing has fallible humans, albeit with "the guidance of the Holy Spirit", but how are we to even know what that phrase means? Does it guarantee perfection? How much human error is able to creep in?

There are clearly discrepancies and contradictions in between the gospels in their specifics, but Mark might represent an earlier theology of the LORD, where his Human nature comes through in more instances, while in John his Divine nature is highlighted.

All that I'm saying is that for St. Mark, Jesus might not have known everything, and for St. John, he might have. Why must we assume a total cohesion between the accounts, without contradiction or error on the part of either author? Perhaps one has it right, and one has it wrong.

By the way, NorthernPines, excellent post.
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2010, 05:46:05 PM »

Let's not forget the possibility that St. Mark and St. John represent different theological interpretations of the life of the LORD. They were both collecting information and couching them in a narrative which they were writing has fallible humans, albeit with "the guidance of the Holy Spirit", but how are we to even know what that phrase means? Does it guarantee perfection? How much human error is able to creep in?

There are clearly discrepancies and contradictions in between the gospels in their specifics, but Mark might represent an earlier theology of the LORD, where his Human nature comes through in more instances, while in John his Divine nature is highlighted.

All that I'm saying is that for St. Mark, Jesus might not have known everything, and for St. John, he might have. Why must we assume a total cohesion between the accounts, without contradiction or error on the part of either author? Perhaps one has it right, and one has it wrong.

By the way, NorthernPines, excellent post.

The problem with this is that the Evangelist is quoting Jesus' explicit statement that some things He did not know at the time He made the statement. Mark and John might have had different Christologies, but that doesn't matter if Jesus explicitly said those things. By the way, I think some of the statements that Jesus knew all were made by the apostles' to Jesus. They might have been expressing their own belief and faith, but that does not mean their words were infallible when they said it.

Besides, it could be true that Jesus knows all things, EXCEPT for certain things.
For example, Jesus said "a wicked generation seeks a sign but no sign will be given them"
And in another place Jesus said "a wicked generation seeks a sign but no sign will be given them EXCEPT the sign of Jonah the prophet."

Consequently, Jesus could know all things ... EXCEPT for the time when the world would end.




Yes, Northern Pines' post was very well thought out.
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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2010, 05:48:40 PM »

I would say that when Christ said he doesn't know when the end will be, that this is not an issue of him being omniscient, but rather it's a part of his position in the Holy Trinity. As he said, only the Father knows, so the Father will be the one to send him.

Omniscient means to know everything. You are right that God the Father knows it because He would send the Word, but the Word did say that he did not know when it would be, hence there are some things that the Word did not know, and He is not all-knowing. I don't see how we can get around it.
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« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2010, 05:53:32 PM »

Indeed we can say, and must say, as Orthodox Christians, that Christ is omniscient, otherwise He could not be fully God as well as fully Man.
This reasoning is one excuse I think people who reject Christ point to.



Quote
There are other instances in scripture where it is clear that Christ knows all, yet chooses to limit the manifestation of His full omniscience and divinity to that which those mere mortals around Him can bear. Two obvious examples come to mind: His Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, and the passage in John 16:

12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Correct here Jesus limited what He chose to reveal to the disciples. That doesn't mean that he knew everything.

When Jesus says he did not know some things, he said more than just that he wasn't going to reveal some things, he said He did not know some things. That's what He said!
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« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2010, 06:12:28 PM »

Jesus knew everything:

Jesus said a third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that Jesus asked him a third time, “Do you love me?” and said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you.” (John 21:17)
There were such assertions by the apostles to Jesus. They might have been expressing their own belief and faith, but that does not mean their words were infallible when they said it. On the other hand you would be right that Jesus appears to endorse them because he doesn't deny them.

Besides, it could be true that Jesus knows all things, EXCEPT for certain things.
For example, Jesus said "a wicked generation seeks a sign but no sign will be given them"
And in another place Jesus said "a wicked generation seeks a sign but no sign will be given them EXCEPT the sign of Jonah the prophet."

Consequently, Jesus could know all things ... EXCEPT for the time when the world would end.


Quote

He will do the same on the Day of Judgment: He will not KNOW some of His disciples:

Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!’ (Matthew 25:11-12)

Here He is using "know" in a poetic sense, as in to recognize. Their souls were isolated from Him, so He doesn't recognize them. If you take it to mean know, or literally have knowledge of their existence, while they exist and stand before Him, then it appears He doesn't literally know some things.


Quote
but He ignored some of His knowledge:

But as for that day or hour no one knows it – neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son – except the Father. (Mark 13:32).

Why is that saying he IGNORED the knowledge? He said he doesn't know.
When we use the term omniscient, don't we mean all-knowing, that he knows everything.
Or are you saying that Omniscient means that the person, on their own, CAN know everything, whether he ignores it or not, or actively thinks of it or not?

If Omniscient means that you have the POWER to know everything, then Christ appears omniscient, and you could say that he chose to ignore this ability in Mark 13:32.

But if Omniscient means literally that you do know everything, then Mark 13:32 seems to say Christ wasn't omnisicent.


Perhaps this is the best explanation, along with the possible explanation that Jesus allowed for EXCEPTIONS to things He said.

However you define "omnisicient" though, it still seems contradictory to say that He knows everything if He says He doesn't, unless you mean "know" in two different senses of the word.
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« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2010, 06:13:21 PM »

Notice, that despite Jesus does not know when the world will end, He knows exactly what will happen then, since He is the source of the Book of Revelation.

I think that we must take this issue in view of Jesus theantropic nature. God is immortal, but Jesus died (even if temporarily). God is everywhere, but Jesus occupied a limited space. So, there *are* human limitations to Jesus human nature.

It is revealing, then, that this very human kind of knowledge (when something will happen), for being something completely from within time, is beyond human nature. Human nature, even the one that exists in Jesus, cannot know this because, at least for now, human nature exists within time, while to know that you must see from outside time.

When someone talks to Jesus physically, you talk to Him as the Second Person, the human-God being. He manifests His Father fully, but not all at once, because He is "existing" in time.

There are things that are in Him and are proper of God, but that cannot be properly actualized in His human nature due to the limitations of this created nature. So, although He *is* omniscient as God, those kinds of knowledge that are unachievable by human nature remain so. His human nature cannot express certain attributes that are exclusive of His divine nature. His kenosis is indeed a very radical one.
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« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2010, 06:32:58 PM »

Notice, that despite Jesus does not know when the world will end, He knows exactly what will happen then, since He is the source of the Book of Revelation.

I think that we must take this issue in view of Jesus theantropic nature. God is immortal, but Jesus died (even if temporarily). God is everywhere, but Jesus occupied a limited space. So, there *are* human limitations to Jesus human nature.

It is revealing, then, that this very human kind of knowledge (when something will happen), for being something completely from within time, is beyond human nature. Human nature, even the one that exists in Jesus, cannot know this because, at least for now, human nature exists within time, while to know that you must see from outside time.

When someone talks to Jesus physically, you talk to Him as the Second Person, the human-God being. He manifests His Father fully, but not all at once, because He is "existing" in time.

There are things that are in Him and are proper of God, but that cannot be properly actualized in His human nature due to the limitations of this created nature. So, although He *is* omniscient as God, those kinds of knowledge that are unachievable by human nature remain so. His human nature cannot express certain attributes that are exclusive of His divine nature. His kenosis is indeed a very radical one.

Very good explanation. He was not omniscient while on earth, he did not exist in all places while on earth, and He even died, all of which contradict attributes we ascribe to God.

People who reject Christ point to these attributes, but it appears that just as God is all powerful, he might have had the power to limit himself when he incarnated.
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« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2010, 06:51:27 PM »

Quote
he did not exist in all places while on earth

I don't think this is correct...

"In the tomb with the body, in hell with the soul, in paradise with the thief, on the throne with the Father, wast thou oh Christ filling all things"

Again, Christ was contained in a human body, yet was also everywhere present & filling all things.

Christ was indeed also omniscient, while also limited.

Just because he had a human body doesn't mean he was not omniscient. He is still in his human body, yet he is still omniscient. Christ is still fully God and fully Man...
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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2010, 07:11:05 PM »

Quote
he did not exist in all places while on earth

I don't think this is correct...

"In the tomb with the body, in hell with the soul, in paradise with the thief, on the throne with the Father, wast thou oh Christ filling all things"

Again, Christ was contained in a human body, yet was also everywhere present & filling all things.

Christ was indeed also omniscient, while also limited.

Just because he had a human body doesn't mean he was not omniscient. He is still in his human body, yet he is still omniscient. Christ is still fully God and fully Man...


Quote
Christ was indeed also omniscient, while also limited.

OK, Limited in what? Physical space? No you said that's wrong. Knowledge? No you said that is wrong.

Christ said He did not know some things, so He did not know some things. Did you get to read my other replies?

You need to explain this by explaining the definition of "omniscient", or by saying He knew all things  ... ... ... ...   EXCEPT for some things,    a way of speaking that Christ Himself used when talking about the sign of Jonah.


Fabio Leite gave an ok explanation I think.
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2010, 07:20:44 PM »

Quote
he did not exist in all places while on earth

I don't think this is correct...

"In the tomb with the body, in hell with the soul, in paradise with the thief, on the throne with the Father, wast thou oh Christ filling all things"

Again, Christ was contained in a human body, yet was also everywhere present & filling all things.

Christ was indeed also omniscient, while also limited.

Just because he had a human body doesn't mean he was not omniscient. He is still in his human body, yet he is still omniscient. Christ is still fully God and fully Man...


Quote
Christ was indeed also omniscient, while also limited.

OK, Limited in what? Physical space? No you said that's wrong. Knowledge? No you said that is wrong.

Christ said He did not know some things, so He did not know some things. Did you get to read my other replies?

You need to explain this by explaining the definition of "omniscient", or by saying He knew all things  ... ... ... ...   EXCEPT for some things,    a way of speaking that Christ Himself used when talking about the sign of Jonah.


Fabio Leite gave an ok explanation I think.

I don't think it really needs to be explained or expanded upon... Like Christ was everywhere present, but also confined in his body... God is immortal, died on a cross... Christ is omniscient, yet had to learn how to walk... How could Christ be on Earth walking around contained in human flesh, and yet also be on the throne in heaven?
You can also look at it the other way too...
Humans cannot walk on water, but Christ did...
Humans cannot raise themselves from the dead, but Christ did...

How can all this be possible, how is all of this true? How can Christ be omniscient (all knowing), yet also have to learn how to walk? It all comes down to the age-old Orthodox answer... It's a mystery, it cannot be explained, it just is the way it is.

Also where did Christ say he didn't know certain things?
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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2010, 07:35:57 PM »

How can all this be possible, how is all of this true? How can Christ be omniscient (all knowing), yet also have to learn how to walk? It all comes down to the age-old Orthodox answer... It's a mystery, it cannot be explained, it just is the way it is.

Also where did Christ say he didn't know certain things?

But as for that day or hour no one knows it – neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son – except the Father. (Mark 13:32).

Devin,

What you are saying is that he COULD do these things, like walk without learning, but chose not to exercize such power.

This goes back to what do we mean when we say omniscient. If it means HE DID KNOW everything, then he was not omniscient while on earth. If omniscient means that He had the POWER and ABILITY to know everything, then He was omniscient on earth

Please read my previous posts.


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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2010, 07:49:35 PM »

I don't understand. Many things being said make no sense to me. If Christ is fully divine then how can He not be omniscient? If He is not omniscient then how can he be fully God. If He does not have all the powers of God then how can He be truly God?
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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2010, 07:54:11 PM »

How can all this be possible, how is all of this true? How can Christ be omniscient (all knowing), yet also have to learn how to walk? It all comes down to the age-old Orthodox answer... It's a mystery, it cannot be explained, it just is the way it is.

Also where did Christ say he didn't know certain things?

But as for that day or hour no one knows it – neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son – except the Father. (Mark 13:32).

Devin,

What you are saying is that he COULD do these things, like walk without learning, but chose not to exercize such power.

This goes back to what do we mean when we say omniscient. If it means HE DID KNOW everything, then he was not omniscient while on earth. If omniscient means that He had the POWER and ABILITY to know everything, then He was omniscient on earth

Please read my previous posts.


I didn't say that, I simply said that he is such... It's not our job to try to figure out why certain things were or why. We don't know how he could be both God and Man equally without division.

As for Mark 13:32, here is the commentary from the Orthodox Study Bible:
"Though Jesus declares that the Son does not know the day of His own return, St. John Chrysostom teaches that this is not to be understood literally, but as a figure of speech. The meaning is simply that Christ will not reveal the exact day to anyone, and that believers should not be so brazen as to inquire of him"

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« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2010, 09:37:41 PM »

How can all this be possible, how is all of this true? How can Christ be omniscient (all knowing), yet also have to learn how to walk? It all comes down to the age-old Orthodox answer... It's a mystery, it cannot be explained, it just is the way it is.

Also where did Christ say he didn't know certain things?

But as for that day or hour no one knows it – neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son – except the Father. (Mark 13:32).

Devin,

What you are saying is that he COULD do these things, like walk without learning, but chose not to exercize such power.

This goes back to what do we mean when we say omniscient. If it means HE DID KNOW everything, then he was not omniscient while on earth. If omniscient means that He had the POWER and ABILITY to know everything, then He was omniscient on earth

Please read my previous posts.


I didn't say that, I simply said that he is such... It's not our job to try to figure out why certain things were or why. We don't know how he could be both God and Man equally without division.

As for Mark 13:32, here is the commentary from the Orthodox Study Bible:
"Though Jesus declares that the Son does not know the day of His own return, St. John Chrysostom teaches that this is not to be understood literally, but as a figure of speech. The meaning is simply that Christ will not reveal the exact day to anyone, and that believers should not be so brazen as to inquire of him"

What you have just cited from Chrysostom by itself doesn't make sense.

If Jesus explicitly states NO ONE knows a certain thing, EVEN ANGELS OR HE, it is a completely different thing to say that this is just a way to say he won't tell them.

Maybe Chrysostom gives a better explanation someplace else.

Jesus said that if you ask your father for something nice, he would give you something nice, instead of a scorpion.

It doesn't make sense for Jesus to explicitly state that NO ONE KNOWS something, NOT EVEN HIM, and that this is just supposed to mean he DOES know it but won't tell us.

Maybe Chrysostom explains this better elsewhere, otherwise it just nonsensical to give a figure of speech that says the OPPOSITE of the real situation.



Best explanation seems to be that Jesus had the ability to live forever, avoid death, fly through the air (not just walk on water), know everything, but chose to humble himself and be more like us in our limitations.
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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2010, 04:09:17 AM »


There were such assertions by the apostles to Jesus. They might have been expressing their own belief and faith, but that does not mean their words were infallible when they said it. On the other hand you would be right that Jesus appears to endorse them because he doesn't deny them.

Besides, it could be true that Jesus knows all things, EXCEPT for certain things.
For example, Jesus said "a wicked generation seeks a sign but no sign will be given them"
And in another place Jesus said "a wicked generation seeks a sign but no sign will be given them EXCEPT the sign of Jonah the prophet."

Consequently, Jesus could know all things ... EXCEPT for the time when the world would end.

This approach to the NT is a bit dangerous. It opens the way to the attachment of the word EXCEPT to any sentence having the word ALL. For instance, in John's Gospel it is stated that ALL things were created by the Logos. Arians would easily read into this verse: "All things EXCEPT the Logos Himself were created by Him".

In Mark 8 Jesus does not refer to the sign of Jonah and naturally does not use a linguistic structure to indicate exception.

In Matthew we see Jesus refer to the sign of Jonah TWICE: chapter 12 and 16. The latter account corresponds to the instance in Mark 8, but its difference stems from Matthew's wish to accommodate it to his peculiar narrative in chapter 12. In other words, Matthew 16 talks about the sign of Jonah unlike Mark 8 because it is meant to be the parallel account of chapter 12, which was recorded by Matthew, but omitted by Mark. In Luke, on the other hand, Jesus talks about the sign of Jonah ONCE (chapter 11), which seems to be almost identical with Matthew 12.

Here He is using "know" in a poetic sense, as in to recognize. Their souls were isolated from Him, so He doesn't recognize them. If you take it to mean know, or literally have knowledge of their existence, while they exist and stand before Him, then it appears He doesn't literally know some things.

The verb used in both verses are identical in Greek. This is why some scholars think that Jesus knew that day and hour, but seemed ignorant of its knowledge.

Why is that saying he IGNORED the knowledge? He said he doesn't know.
When we use the term omniscient, don't we mean all-knowing, that he knows everything.
Or are you saying that Omniscient means that the person, on their own, CAN know everything, whether he ignores it or not, or actively thinks of it or not?

If Omniscient means that you have the POWER to know everything, then Christ appears omniscient, and you could say that he chose to ignore this ability in Mark 13:32.

But if Omniscient means literally that you do know everything, then Mark 13:32 seems to say Christ wasn't omnisicent.


Perhaps this is the best explanation, along with the possible explanation that Jesus allowed for EXCEPTIONS to things He said.

However you define "omnisicient" though, it still seems contradictory to say that He knows everything if He says He doesn't, unless you mean "know" in two different senses of the word.

Jesus knew everything, but He chose not to reveal SOME. The other possibility is that the knowledge of the day and hour was concealed from Jesus after the Incarnation. Since the Father did not allow mankind to know certain times defined by His authority, Jesus was not made exempt from this due to His human nature.

I mostly tend to take Jesus' words in Mark 13 metaphorically and think that He said the sentence not to give a lecture on theology or distinguish Himself from the Father, but to express with emphasis that it was not possible EVEN for Jesus' apostles to know the day and hour. The apostles seem to be people who believed in Jesus' full divinity and naturally expected Him to know and do EVERYTHING. Such an expectation is not wrong per se, but is not always in line with God's plans for mankind as it may go against the restrictions imposed by God on men. Jesus' statements in Mark 13 teach His disciples that they will not have any prerogatives with regard to knowledge of the day and hour although they are with the Son, who is equal to the Father.

I see a similar teaching in the following verses:

Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling down she asked him for a favor. He said to her, “What do you want?” She replied, “Permit these two sons of mine to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” Jesus answered, “You don’t know what you are asking! Are you able to drink the cup I am about to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.” He told them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right and at my left is not mine to give. Rather, it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20:20-23)

Should we conclude that Jesus was not omnipotent because He denied John and James the prerogative of sitting at HIS right and left hand? NO. Jesus could do that, but He did not want. He denied authority and responsibility for the things that would go against God's plans.

The other significant point is that in both instances the question/request concerns Jesus and are associated with His power. Jesus is the one to come on the Day of Judgment as the Lord of the house. Likewise, John and James request to sit at Jesus' right and left when He comes in HIS Kingdom. The denial of authority and responsibility in both cases may point at Jesus' humility, which resulted in His passion.
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2010, 09:57:20 AM »

I'm sorry, but due to personal issues I must withdraw from this interesting debate! Glad to see great dialogue going on though. Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2010, 01:13:43 PM »

Here is the full quotation from St. John Chrysostom:

Quote
“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” By saying, not the angels, He stopped their mouths, that they should not seek to learn what these angels know not; and by saying, “neither the Son,” forbids them not only to learn, but even to inquire. For in proof that therefore He said this, see after His resurrection, when He saw they were become over curious, how He stopped their mouths more decidedly. For now indeed He hath mentioned infallible signs, many and endless; but then He saith merely, “It is not for you to know times or seasons.” And then that they might not say, we are driven to perplexity, we are utterly scorned, we are not held worthy so much as of this, He says, “which the Father hath put in His own power.” And this, because He was exceedingly careful to honor them, and to conceal nothing from them. Therefore He refers it to His Father, both to make the thing awful, and to exclude that of which He had spoken from their inquiry. Since if it be not this, but He is ignorant of it, when will He know it? Will it be together with us? But who would say this? And the Father He knoweth clearly, even as clearly as He knoweth the Son; and of the day is He ignorant? Moreover, “the Spirit indeed searcheth even the deep things of God,” and doth not He know so much as the time of the judgment? But how He ought to judge He knoweth, and of the secrets of each He hath a full perception; and what is far more common than that, of this could He be ignorant? And how, if “all things were made by Him, and without Him was not even one thing made,” was He ignorant of the day? For He who made the worlds, it is quite plain that He made the times also; and if the times, even that day. How then is He ignorant of that which He made?
2. And ye indeed say that ye know even His substance, but that the Son not even the day, the Son, who is always in the bosom of the Father; and yet His substance is much greater than the days, even infinitely greater. How then, while assigning to yourselves the greater things, do you not allow even the less to the Son, “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” But neither do you know what God is in His substance, though ten thousand times ye talk thus madly, neither is the Son ignorant of the day, but is even in full certainty thereof.
For this cause, I say, when He had told all things, both the times and the seasons, and had brought it to the very doors (“for it is near,” He saith, “even at the doors”), He was silent as to the day. For if thou seek after the day and hour, thou shalt not hear them of me, saith He; but if of times and preludes, without hiding anything, I will tell thee all exactly.
For that indeed I am not ignorant of it, I have shown by many things; having mentioned intervals, and all the things that are to occur, and how short from this present time until the day itself (for this did the parable of the fig tree indicate), and I lead thee to the very vestibule; and if I do not open unto thee the doors, this also I do for your good.
And that thou mayest learn by another thing also, that the silence is not a mark of ignorance on His part, see, together with what we have mentioned, how He sets forth another sign also. “But as in the days of Noe they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that the flood came, and took all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”

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« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2010, 03:06:18 PM »

Here is the full quotation from St. John Chrysostom:

Quote
“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” By saying, not the angels, He stopped their mouths, that they should not seek to learn what these angels know not; and by saying, “neither the Son,” forbids them not only to learn, but even to inquire. For in proof that therefore He said this, see after His resurrection, when He saw they were become over curious, how He stopped their mouths more decidedly. For now indeed He hath mentioned infallible signs, many and endless; but then He saith merely, “It is not for you to know times or seasons.” And then that they might not say, we are driven to perplexity, we are utterly scorned, we are not held worthy so much as of this, He says, “which the Father hath put in His own power.” And this, because He was exceedingly careful to honor them, and to conceal nothing from them. Therefore He refers it to His Father, both to make the thing awful, and to exclude that of which He had spoken from their inquiry. Since if it be not this, but He is ignorant of it, when will He know it? Will it be together with us? But who would say this? And the Father He knoweth clearly, even as clearly as He knoweth the Son; and of the day is He ignorant? Moreover, “the Spirit indeed searcheth even the deep things of God,” and doth not He know so much as the time of the judgment? But how He ought to judge He knoweth, and of the secrets of each He hath a full perception; and what is far more common than that, of this could He be ignorant? And how, if “all things were made by Him, and without Him was not even one thing made,” was He ignorant of the day? For He who made the worlds, it is quite plain that He made the times also; and if the times, even that day. How then is He ignorant of that which He made?
2. And ye indeed say that ye know even His substance, but that the Son not even the day, the Son, who is always in the bosom of the Father; and yet His substance is much greater than the days, even infinitely greater. How then, while assigning to yourselves the greater things, do you not allow even the less to the Son, “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” But neither do you know what God is in His substance, though ten thousand times ye talk thus madly, neither is the Son ignorant of the day, but is even in full certainty thereof.
For this cause, I say, when He had told all things, both the times and the seasons, and had brought it to the very doors (“for it is near,” He saith, “even at the doors”), He was silent as to the day. For if thou seek after the day and hour, thou shalt not hear them of me, saith He; but if of times and preludes, without hiding anything, I will tell thee all exactly.
For that indeed I am not ignorant of it, I have shown by many things; having mentioned intervals, and all the things that are to occur, and how short from this present time until the day itself (for this did the parable of the fig tree indicate), and I lead thee to the very vestibule; and if I do not open unto thee the doors, this also I do for your good.
And that thou mayest learn by another thing also, that the silence is not a mark of ignorance on His part, see, together with what we have mentioned, how He sets forth another sign also. “But as in the days of Noe they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that the flood came, and took all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”


Can you name the source of this paragraph? A bibliographical reference to the writing or link to the Internet Web page where you copied this will work. Thank you.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 03:06:45 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2010, 03:17:48 PM »

Certain sub-atomic particles have, at the same time, both the properties of particles (being a small circunscribed piece of something) and properties of waves (a wave is at several places at the same time, it spreads, etc). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality

Now, scientis don't know *how* that it is possible, only that it occurs. If matter can, at the same time, be a particle and a wave, why wouldn't the Second Person of the Trinity be unlimited (in His Godly nature) and limited (in His human nature) at the same time?

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« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2010, 06:10:04 PM »

Here is the full quotation from St. John Chrysostom:

Quote
“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” By saying, not the angels, He stopped their mouths, that they should not seek to learn what these angels know not; and by saying, “neither the Son,” forbids them not only to learn, but even to inquire. For in proof that therefore He said this, see after His resurrection, when He saw they were become over curious, how He stopped their mouths more decidedly. For now indeed He hath mentioned infallible signs, many and endless; but then He saith merely, “It is not for you to know times or seasons.” And then that they might not say, we are driven to perplexity, we are utterly scorned, we are not held worthy so much as of this, He says, “which the Father hath put in His own power.” And this, because He was exceedingly careful to honor them, and to conceal nothing from them. Therefore He refers it to His Father, both to make the thing awful, and to exclude that of which He had spoken from their inquiry. Since if it be not this, but He is ignorant of it, when will He know it? Will it be together with us? But who would say this? And the Father He knoweth clearly, even as clearly as He knoweth the Son; and of the day is He ignorant? Moreover, “the Spirit indeed searcheth even the deep things of God,” and doth not He know so much as the time of the judgment? But how He ought to judge He knoweth, and of the secrets of each He hath a full perception; and what is far more common than that, of this could He be ignorant? And how, if “all things were made by Him, and without Him was not even one thing made,” was He ignorant of the day? For He who made the worlds, it is quite plain that He made the times also; and if the times, even that day. How then is He ignorant of that which He made?
2. And ye indeed say that ye know even His substance, but that the Son not even the day, the Son, who is always in the bosom of the Father; and yet His substance is much greater than the days, even infinitely greater. How then, while assigning to yourselves the greater things, do you not allow even the less to the Son, “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” But neither do you know what God is in His substance, though ten thousand times ye talk thus madly, neither is the Son ignorant of the day, but is even in full certainty thereof.
For this cause, I say, when He had told all things, both the times and the seasons, and had brought it to the very doors (“for it is near,” He saith, “even at the doors”), He was silent as to the day. For if thou seek after the day and hour, thou shalt not hear them of me, saith He; but if of times and preludes, without hiding anything, I will tell thee all exactly.
For that indeed I am not ignorant of it, I have shown by many things; having mentioned intervals, and all the things that are to occur, and how short from this present time until the day itself (for this did the parable of the fig tree indicate), and I lead thee to the very vestibule; and if I do not open unto thee the doors, this also I do for your good.
And that thou mayest learn by another thing also, that the silence is not a mark of ignorance on His part, see, together with what we have mentioned, how He sets forth another sign also. “But as in the days of Noe they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that the flood came, and took all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”

A link to the above quotation: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LXXIV.html

Not that I would pretend to know the answer to this question, but I would venture to guess that Christ, in his Incarnation, assumed the limitations of humanity, while retaining the unlimitedness of his Godhead by virtue of being eternally begotten from the Father. I don't think this is necessarily Nestorian, nor does it preclude St. John's explanation of Matt. 24:36. So, with his limited human faculties, he has human limitations in knowledge; he "grew in wisdom" just like us (Luke 2:52). But being one with His Father, he divinely shares in the Father's knowledge.

If he is the Sustainer of the Universe, even while incarnate, then he must be omniscient. If he has adopted all the qualities of humanity except sin, then he must have limited knowledge. Human brains are not capable of infinite knowledge.

In any event, I'll probably ask my priest at some point.
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« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2010, 06:49:17 PM »

Our Lord Jesus Christ said He was not omniscient, hence the Orthodox position is that our Lord Jesus Christ was not omniscient.
Could you please provide a source for this?

I'd always assumed that Christ had all the attributes of God, including omniscience, even while on earth. He was still fully divine, after all.

But in addition to being fully God, was he not fully man also? Could it not be the case that his human brain was limited as ours are.

it seems to me he knew pretty much anything he needed to know, and he could read people's minds (as can many saints), but I'm not convinced if you asked our Lord while he was on earth "what is the atomic number of hydrogen?" he would know what you were talking about. He'd probably just change the subject to your need for repentance or something. Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2010, 07:09:49 PM »

Has nobody looked at post #16?  Huh
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