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Author Topic: Ecclesiologies with pictures  (Read 10320 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: July 16, 2010, 10:10:05 AM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
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« Reply #181 on: July 16, 2010, 10:46:29 AM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #182 on: July 16, 2010, 10:47:35 AM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #183 on: July 16, 2010, 12:02:38 PM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
No, but if you did, what would you do different?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #184 on: July 16, 2010, 12:21:10 PM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
No, but if you did, what would you do different?
If we thought the Pope was God, we would worship him. We don't believe he is, so we don't worship him. Do you think that your Bishop is God?
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« Reply #185 on: July 16, 2010, 12:28:08 PM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
No, but if you did, what would you do different?
If we thought the Pope was God, we would worship him. We don't believe he is, so we don't worship him. Do you think that your Bishop is God?

I think that what ialmisry is asking, is for you to describe what the worship of the Pope would be like in practice. Tibetan Budhists, for example, believe the Dalai Lama is a literal incarnation of the Bodhisatva of Compassion. That reflects in a number of things in their practices, that are different from, say, Zen Budhists. So, how would RC worship be different from what it is now, if you considered literally that the Pope and Christ are one?

And, I'd like also to see your reply to my question: do you think the King-Steward relationship is different from an iconic relationship or are they the same thing?
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« Reply #186 on: July 16, 2010, 12:51:56 PM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
No, but if you did, what would you do different?
If we thought the Pope was God, we would worship him. We don't believe he is, so we don't worship him. Do you think that your Bishop is God?

I think that what ialmisry is asking, is for you to describe what the worship of the Pope would be like in practice. Tibetan Budhists, for example, believe the Dalai Lama is a literal incarnation of the Bodhisatva of Compassion. That reflects in a number of things in their practices, that are different from, say, Zen Budhists. So, how would RC worship be different from what it is now, if you considered literally that the Pope and Christ are one?

And, I'd like also to see your reply to my question: do you think the King-Steward relationship is different from an iconic relationship or are they the same thing?
Well, for one, if he were God, we would develop liturgies and prayers to him. He would be the object of our Eucharistic Sacrifice. We would consider him our savior, and we would credit him with our very existence. We would acknowledge that everything we are belonged to him. We would pray to him and ask him to impart us with his grace.
And since we do not treat the Pope in this way, it is clear that we do not believe him to be God. BTW, after typing out this answer, I am amazed that I am even having to answer this question. It is clear to me that truth is not the concern of you or Isa, but only polemics.

And yes, I would agree with teh Iconic interpretation for the most part.
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« Reply #187 on: July 16, 2010, 12:55:51 PM »

but only polemics.

And yes, I would agree with teh Iconic interpretation for the most part.

From your point of view I understand it may look as just polemics. But also we are advancing now.

So yes for the iconic interpretation for "the most part".

What is the part of the iconic interpretation that you would not agree?
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« Reply #188 on: July 16, 2010, 01:24:23 PM »

but only polemics.

And yes, I would agree with teh Iconic interpretation for the most part.

From your point of view I understand it may look as just polemics. But also we are advancing now.

So yes for the iconic interpretation for "the most part".

What is the part of the iconic interpretation that you would not agree?
Can you further expound upon you "iconic" view?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #189 on: July 16, 2010, 02:07:59 PM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
No, but if you did, what would you do different?
If we thought the Pope was God, we would worship him. We don't believe he is, so we don't worship him. Do you think that your Bishop is God?

I think that what ialmisry is asking, is for you to describe what the worship of the Pope would be like in practice. Tibetan Budhists, for example, believe the Dalai Lama is a literal incarnation of the Bodhisatva of Compassion. That reflects in a number of things in their practices, that are different from, say, Zen Budhists. So, how would RC worship be different from what it is now, if you considered literally that the Pope and Christ are one?

And, I'd like also to see your reply to my question: do you think the King-Steward relationship is different from an iconic relationship or are they the same thing?
Well, for one, if he were God, we would develop liturgies and prayers to him.

You have services and prayers to the Theotokos, do you worship her?

Quote
He would be the object of our Eucharistic Sacrifice.

Distinguish please from the "Mass intentions" announced at the beginning, along with the power of the supreme pontiff to validate the Eucharist or deny it all together (interdict).

Quote
We would consider him our savior, and we would credit him with our very existence.

You claim the Church is incomplete without him, and would fall apart. We are supposed in "imperfect communion with the Catholic Church" because he's not in our diptychs. IIOW, you credit him with the Church's continued existence.

Quote
We would acknowledge that everything we are belonged to him.

What don't you think belongs to him?

Quote
We would pray to him and ask him to impart us with his grace.

You were saying?
Quote
And since we do not treat the Pope in this way, it is clear that we do not believe him to be God. BTW, after typing out this answer, I am amazed that I am even having to answer this question. It is clear to me that truth is not the concern of you or Isa, but only polemics.
You still haven't made any distinction. All that Treasury of those merits of the saints that you believe in, he alone holds the key, and he alone dispenses.  No Eucharist is valid say one he, no matter how indirectly, validates.  Like God, he cannot be removed from his position.  Without him, according to your view, the Church does not exist.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 02:08:47 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #190 on: July 16, 2010, 02:55:57 PM »

For the last time, I would like to point out that truth-seeking and polemic are not necessarily opposed (though of course they can be). If I hear one more person try to invalidate another's argument on this forum by calling it "polemics", I'm gonna go crazy.
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« Reply #191 on: July 16, 2010, 03:02:03 PM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
No, but if you did, what would you do different?
If we thought the Pope was God, we would worship him. We don't believe he is, so we don't worship him. Do you think that your Bishop is God?

I think that what ialmisry is asking, is for you to describe what the worship of the Pope would be like in practice. Tibetan Budhists, for example, believe the Dalai Lama is a literal incarnation of the Bodhisatva of Compassion. That reflects in a number of things in their practices, that are different from, say, Zen Budhists. So, how would RC worship be different from what it is now, if you considered literally that the Pope and Christ are one?

And, I'd like also to see your reply to my question: do you think the King-Steward relationship is different from an iconic relationship or are they the same thing?
Well, for one, if he were God, we would develop liturgies and prayers to him.

You have services and prayers to the Theotokos, do you worship her?

Quote
He would be the object of our Eucharistic Sacrifice.

Distinguish please from the "Mass intentions" announced at the beginning, along with the power of the supreme pontiff to validate the Eucharist or deny it all together (interdict).

Quote
We would consider him our savior, and we would credit him with our very existence.

You claim the Church is incomplete without him, and would fall apart. We are supposed in "imperfect communion with the Catholic Church" because he's not in our diptychs. IIOW, you credit him with the Church's continued existence.

Quote
We would acknowledge that everything we are belonged to him.

What don't you think belongs to him?

Quote
We would pray to him and ask him to impart us with his grace.

You were saying?
Quote
And since we do not treat the Pope in this way, it is clear that we do not believe him to be God. BTW, after typing out this answer, I am amazed that I am even having to answer this question. It is clear to me that truth is not the concern of you or Isa, but only polemics.
You still haven't made any distinction. All that Treasury of those merits of the saints that you believe in, he alone holds the key, and he alone dispenses.  No Eucharist is valid say one he, no matter how indirectly, validates.  Like God, he cannot be removed from his position.  Without him, according to your view, the Church does not exist.



A lot of these things could be said of our bishops (except the 'everything belongs to him' one).

Also, one reason I'm glad I'm not RC: this thing about "develop"ing liturgies, like moving a liturgy down the corporate r&d pipeline. Heaven save us from liturgy development committees (oh and also, Heaven save us from all-powerful world-monarch dictator heresiarch uberbishops who give the symbol of their universal dominance to the United Nations)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 03:06:12 PM by JLatimer » Logged

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So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
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« Reply #192 on: July 16, 2010, 05:08:46 PM »

A lot of these things could be said of our bishops (except the 'everything belongs to him' one).

The main thing that is different, is that each bishop is the head of a diocese. This diocese is itself an image of the whole Church:

The whole Church has for its head Christ;
The diocese has for its head the Bishop;

The whole Church is comprised of members of all nations;
The diocese is comprised of people from different origins;(Yes, I do see the irony. Smiley )

And so on. These analogies can go on and on.

This is a "kat'holic" church, one in which the local church resembles iconically the whole Church; it is "according to the whole".

The problem with RC eclesiology is that the Pope is a "Steward-Head" of the *whole* church. A diocese that was "katta" this model would have a Bishop, who would stay in a monastery or in a cell, and an Archpriest who would, for all practical purposes, act on his name even if consulting him in each step.

As the Holy Pope Gregory, the Great said, the creation of a "universal bishop" automatically makes all the others just "auxilary bishops", less bishops than the universal one. The blasphemy is precisely the concept of having a bishop over the *whole* Church, a position that is exclusive of Christ, visible in icons and in the Eucharist and proclaimed through the right faith. That is not "according to the whole", but "over the whole". It breaks precisely the big model whereupon the concrete local churchs are supposed to be modelled after.
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« Reply #193 on: July 16, 2010, 05:54:09 PM »

A lot of these things could be said of our bishops (except the 'everything belongs to him' one).

The main thing that is different, is that each bishop is the head of a diocese. This diocese is itself an image of the whole Church:

The whole Church has for its head Christ;
The diocese has for its head the Bishop;

The whole Church is comprised of members of all nations;
The diocese is comprised of people from different origins;(Yes, I do see the irony. Smiley )

And so on. These analogies can go on and on.

This is a "kat'holic" church, one in which the local church resembles iconically the whole Church; it is "according to the whole".

The problem with RC eclesiology is that the Pope is a "Steward-Head" of the *whole* church. A diocese that was "katta" this model would have a Bishop, who would stay in a monastery or in a cell, and an Archpriest who would, for all practical purposes, act on his name even if consulting him in each step.

As the Holy Pope Gregory, the Great said, the creation of a "universal bishop" automatically makes all the others just "auxilary bishops", less bishops than the universal one. The blasphemy is precisely the concept of having a bishop over the *whole* Church, a position that is exclusive of Christ, visible in icons and in the Eucharist and proclaimed through the right faith. That is not "according to the whole", but "over the whole". It breaks precisely the big model whereupon the concrete local churchs are supposed to be modelled after.

Agreed.

I once came across a RC anti-Orthodox apologetics site that claimed the Slavonic translation of καθολικός as соборную  (dat. case as in the creed; sorry I don't remember the nominative) was tantamount to heresy. They claimed it meant 'conciliar' and that 'catholic' meant 'universal' (lol). But as you have ceaselessly been pointing out, rightly of course, ''catholic'' means 'according to the whole', for which sobornuyu is not a bad translation at all. Methinks 'universal' in Greek is οικουμενικός, no?
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« Reply #194 on: July 16, 2010, 06:54:39 PM »

Oikoumenikos in Greek means "pertaining to the inhabited earth."  That might do for "universal," but only in a terrestrial sense.  Not grand enough for Rome's liking, I think.
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« Reply #195 on: July 16, 2010, 07:02:01 PM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
No, but if you did, what would you do different?
If we thought the Pope was God, we would worship him. We don't believe he is, so we don't worship him. Do you think that your Bishop is God?

I think that what ialmisry is asking, is for you to describe what the worship of the Pope would be like in practice. Tibetan Budhists, for example, believe the Dalai Lama is a literal incarnation of the Bodhisatva of Compassion. That reflects in a number of things in their practices, that are different from, say, Zen Budhists. So, how would RC worship be different from what it is now, if you considered literally that the Pope and Christ are one?

And, I'd like also to see your reply to my question: do you think the King-Steward relationship is different from an iconic relationship or are they the same thing?
Well, for one, if he were God, we would develop liturgies and prayers to him.

You have services and prayers to the Theotokos, do you worship her?

Quote
He would be the object of our Eucharistic Sacrifice.

Distinguish please from the "Mass intentions" announced at the beginning, along with the power of the supreme pontiff to validate the Eucharist or deny it all together (interdict).

Quote
We would consider him our savior, and we would credit him with our very existence.

You claim the Church is incomplete without him, and would fall apart. We are supposed in "imperfect communion with the Catholic Church" because he's not in our diptychs. IIOW, you credit him with the Church's continued existence.

Quote
We would acknowledge that everything we are belonged to him.

What don't you think belongs to him?

Quote
We would pray to him and ask him to impart us with his grace.

You were saying?
Quote
And since we do not treat the Pope in this way, it is clear that we do not believe him to be God. BTW, after typing out this answer, I am amazed that I am even having to answer this question. It is clear to me that truth is not the concern of you or Isa, but only polemics.
You still haven't made any distinction. All that Treasury of those merits of the saints that you believe in, he alone holds the key, and he alone dispenses.  No Eucharist is valid say one he, no matter how indirectly, validates.  Like God, he cannot be removed from his position.  Without him, according to your view, the Church does not exist.



A lot of these things could be said of our bishops (except the 'everything belongs to him' one).

That exclusivity is the problem.  Of course, no DL, for instance, can occur without the bishops blessing, direct or indirect (e.g. the antimens).  The problem is the idea that the Vatican has perform this role the world over is the problem: it makes the local bishop superfluous instead of vital.


Quote
Also, one reason I'm glad I'm not RC: this thing about "develop"ing liturgies, like moving a liturgy down the corporate r&d pipeline. Heaven save us from liturgy development committees (oh and also, Heaven save us from all-powerful world-monarch dictator heresiarch uberbishops who give the symbol of their universal dominance to the United Nations)
Novus Ordo: supreme example of the fish rotting from the head down.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #196 on: July 16, 2010, 07:05:23 PM »

A lot of these things could be said of our bishops (except the 'everything belongs to him' one).

The main thing that is different, is that each bishop is the head of a diocese. This diocese is itself an image of the whole Church:

The whole Church has for its head Christ;
The diocese has for its head the Bishop;

The whole Church is comprised of members of all nations;
The diocese is comprised of people from different origins;(Yes, I do see the irony. Smiley )

And so on. These analogies can go on and on.

This is a "kat'holic" church, one in which the local church resembles iconically the whole Church; it is "according to the whole".

The problem with RC eclesiology is that the Pope is a "Steward-Head" of the *whole* church. A diocese that was "katta" this model would have a Bishop, who would stay in a monastery or in a cell, and an Archpriest who would, for all practical purposes, act on his name even if consulting him in each step.

As the Holy Pope Gregory, the Great said, the creation of a "universal bishop" automatically makes all the others just "auxilary bishops", less bishops than the universal one. The blasphemy is precisely the concept of having a bishop over the *whole* Church, a position that is exclusive of Christ, visible in icons and in the Eucharist and proclaimed through the right faith. That is not "according to the whole", but "over the whole". It breaks precisely the big model whereupon the concrete local churchs are supposed to be modelled after.
Precisely: add to that that the Vatican presumes to talk to the Church rather for her, and you see the two headed monster rearing its visible head.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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Posts: 37,963



« Reply #197 on: July 16, 2010, 07:06:55 PM »

A lot of these things could be said of our bishops (except the 'everything belongs to him' one).

The main thing that is different, is that each bishop is the head of a diocese. This diocese is itself an image of the whole Church:

The whole Church has for its head Christ;
The diocese has for its head the Bishop;

The whole Church is comprised of members of all nations;
The diocese is comprised of people from different origins;(Yes, I do see the irony. Smiley )

And so on. These analogies can go on and on.

This is a "kat'holic" church, one in which the local church resembles iconically the whole Church; it is "according to the whole".

The problem with RC eclesiology is that the Pope is a "Steward-Head" of the *whole* church. A diocese that was "katta" this model would have a Bishop, who would stay in a monastery or in a cell, and an Archpriest who would, for all practical purposes, act on his name even if consulting him in each step.

As the Holy Pope Gregory, the Great said, the creation of a "universal bishop" automatically makes all the others just "auxilary bishops", less bishops than the universal one. The blasphemy is precisely the concept of having a bishop over the *whole* Church, a position that is exclusive of Christ, visible in icons and in the Eucharist and proclaimed through the right faith. That is not "according to the whole", but "over the whole". It breaks precisely the big model whereupon the concrete local churchs are supposed to be modelled after.

Agreed.

I once came across a RC anti-Orthodox apologetics site that claimed the Slavonic translation of καθολικός as соборную  (dat. case as in the creed; sorry I don't remember the nominative) was tantamount to heresy. They claimed it meant 'conciliar' and that 'catholic' meant 'universal' (lol). But as you have ceaselessly been pointing out, rightly of course, ''catholic'' means 'according to the whole', for which sobornuyu is not a bad translation at all. Methinks 'universal' in Greek is οικουμενικός, no?
I like how the Slavonic root for Catholic, conciliar, council, cathedral, is the same root.
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« Reply #198 on: July 16, 2010, 07:19:57 PM »

A lot of these things could be said of our bishops (except the 'everything belongs to him' one).

The main thing that is different, is that each bishop is the head of a diocese. This diocese is itself an image of the whole Church:

The whole Church has for its head Christ;
The diocese has for its head the Bishop;

The whole Church is comprised of members of all nations;
The diocese is comprised of people from different origins;(Yes, I do see the irony. Smiley )

And so on. These analogies can go on and on.

This is a "kat'holic" church, one in which the local church resembles iconically the whole Church; it is "according to the whole".

The problem with RC eclesiology is that the Pope is a "Steward-Head" of the *whole* church. A diocese that was "katta" this model would have a Bishop, who would stay in a monastery or in a cell, and an Archpriest who would, for all practical purposes, act on his name even if consulting him in each step.

As the Holy Pope Gregory, the Great said, the creation of a "universal bishop" automatically makes all the others just "auxilary bishops", less bishops than the universal one. The blasphemy is precisely the concept of having a bishop over the *whole* Church, a position that is exclusive of Christ, visible in icons and in the Eucharist and proclaimed through the right faith. That is not "according to the whole", but "over the whole". It breaks precisely the big model whereupon the concrete local churchs are supposed to be modelled after.

Agreed.

I once came across a RC anti-Orthodox apologetics site that claimed the Slavonic translation of καθολικός as соборную  (dat. case as in the creed; sorry I don't remember the nominative) was tantamount to heresy. They claimed it meant 'conciliar' and that 'catholic' meant 'universal' (lol). But as you have ceaselessly been pointing out, rightly of course, ''catholic'' means 'according to the whole', for which sobornuyu is not a bad translation at all. Methinks 'universal' in Greek is οικουμενικός, no?
I like how the Slavonic root for Catholic, conciliar, council, cathedral, is the same root.

Yup. The point I was trying to make is just that it doesn't mean conciliar in the restrictive sense the RC apologist was claiming. The Cathedral I go to sometimes is called a собор. I guess it's also similar to an OO hierarch being called a Catholicos.
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« Reply #199 on: July 17, 2010, 01:15:30 AM »

There are only two Eastern patriarchs I know of who bear the title Catholicos:  the Patriarch/Catholicos of Armenia (OO), and the Patriarch/Catholicos of Georgia (EO).
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« Reply #200 on: July 17, 2010, 04:51:13 AM »

There are only two Eastern patriarchs I know of who bear the title Catholicos:  the Patriarch/Catholicos of Armenia (OO), and the Patriarch/Catholicos of Georgia (EO).
There is also one in India.

The ACE primate claims the title catholicos.  It all goes back to to Antioch and Alll the East.  The "All of the East" outisde of the Empire had exarchs entitled "catholicos."
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« Reply #201 on: July 17, 2010, 05:56:59 AM »

Can people not quote the entire thread when they reply?

When I try and read posts on my Blackberry it is impossible to see what any thread is actually adding. Even on my PC it is not helpful.

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« Reply #202 on: July 17, 2010, 10:35:43 PM »

I agree with Father Peter!  I've just been reading some of these threads on my Palm Centro and have the same problem.

And by the way, since I've been doing that, I would like to apologize to Fabio Leite - I have been responding to him as though he was just a garden-variety knee-jerk anti-Catholic.  However, I came across some very beautiful posts you made in the thread about the Pope's visit to Greece, which I thought were quite well-written, thoughtful and generous in outlook towards the non-Orthodox.  I wish more Christians, both Orthodox and Catholics, had your charity of spirit. Smiley
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« Reply #203 on: July 19, 2010, 10:09:31 AM »

So is it basically your statement, and belief, that Catholics who state that they do not worship the Pope are lying?
Did someone say the followers of the Vatican worship it? Maybe you should define "worship." and while we are at it, explain if you did indeed worship the pope of Rome, what would you be doing differently.
You are claiming that we think the Pope is God.
No, but if you did, what would you do different?
If we thought the Pope was God, we would worship him. We don't believe he is, so we don't worship him. Do you think that your Bishop is God?

I think that what ialmisry is asking, is for you to describe what the worship of the Pope would be like in practice. Tibetan Budhists, for example, believe the Dalai Lama is a literal incarnation of the Bodhisatva of Compassion. That reflects in a number of things in their practices, that are different from, say, Zen Budhists. So, how would RC worship be different from what it is now, if you considered literally that the Pope and Christ are one?

And, I'd like also to see your reply to my question: do you think the King-Steward relationship is different from an iconic relationship or are they the same thing?
Well, for one, if he were God, we would develop liturgies and prayers to him.

You have services and prayers to the Theotokos, do you worship her?

Quote
He would be the object of our Eucharistic Sacrifice.

Distinguish please from the "Mass intentions" announced at the beginning, along with the power of the supreme pontiff to validate the Eucharist or deny it all together (interdict).

Quote
We would consider him our savior, and we would credit him with our very existence.

You claim the Church is incomplete without him, and would fall apart. We are supposed in "imperfect communion with the Catholic Church" because he's not in our diptychs. IIOW, you credit him with the Church's continued existence.

Quote
We would acknowledge that everything we are belonged to him.

What don't you think belongs to him?

Quote
We would pray to him and ask him to impart us with his grace.

You were saying?
Quote
And since we do not treat the Pope in this way, it is clear that we do not believe him to be God. BTW, after typing out this answer, I am amazed that I am even having to answer this question. It is clear to me that truth is not the concern of you or Isa, but only polemics.
You still haven't made any distinction. All that Treasury of those merits of the saints that you believe in, he alone holds the key, and he alone dispenses.  No Eucharist is valid say one he, no matter how indirectly, validates.  Like God, he cannot be removed from his position.  Without him, according to your view, the Church does not exist.



Isa,
I have made a distinction and made one that is quite clear. You, for some odd reason, want us to worship the Pope. You want us to be idolators. I thinks it's because you are more interested in scoring points in an argument than actually pursuing truth. I am going to offer many prayers for you.
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« Reply #204 on: July 19, 2010, 06:00:04 PM »

Offering to pray for someone as a thinly veiled insult - long live Orthodoxchristianity.net!
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« Reply #205 on: July 19, 2010, 07:05:46 PM »

Passive-aggressive: the only Christian way.
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« Reply #206 on: July 19, 2010, 07:18:58 PM »

Isa,
I have made a distinction and made one that is quite clear. You, for some odd reason, want us to worship the Pope. You want us to be idolators. I thinks it's because you are more interested in scoring points in an argument than actually pursuing truth. I am going to offer many prayers for you.

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« Reply #207 on: July 19, 2010, 08:27:00 PM »

I agree with Father Peter!  I've just been reading some of these threads on my Palm Centro and have the same problem.

And by the way, since I've been doing that, I would like to apologize to Fabio Leite - I have been responding to him as though he was just a garden-variety knee-jerk anti-Catholic.  However, I came across some very beautiful posts you made in the thread about the Pope's visit to Greece, which I thought were quite well-written, thoughtful and generous in outlook towards the non-Orthodox.  I wish more Christians, both Orthodox and Catholics, had your charity of spirit. Smiley

Thank you theistgal! I think one of the issues is precisely that people associate the sentence "you are not in the Church" with "you are a Graceless enemy of God hated by Him", which is not the case I was trying to make. We all still live under the echoes of the religious wars of the second millenium Europe. But being outside the Church is not a guarantee of perdition as being inside is not certainty of salvation.
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« Reply #208 on: July 20, 2010, 10:17:06 AM »

Isa,
I have made a distinction and made one that is quite clear. You, for some odd reason, want us to worship the Pope. You want us to be idolators. I thinks it's because you are more interested in scoring points in an argument than actually pursuing truth. I am going to offer many prayers for you.


You know, even though your Church refers to the EP as "You Divine All Holiness", we don't charge you with worshiping your Patriarchs.
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« Reply #209 on: July 20, 2010, 11:20:15 AM »

Isa,
I have made a distinction and made one that is quite clear. You, for some odd reason, want us to worship the Pope. You want us to be idolators. I thinks it's because you are more interested in scoring points in an argument than actually pursuing truth. I am going to offer many prayers for you.


You know, even though your Church refers to the EP as "You Divine All Holiness", we don't charge you with worshiping your Patriarchs.
That's because besides the title, there is nothing to substantiate the charge.  I've never heard of patriarchal slippers, for instance.
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« Reply #210 on: July 20, 2010, 11:28:55 AM »

Isa,
I have made a distinction and made one that is quite clear. You, for some odd reason, want us to worship the Pope. You want us to be idolators. I thinks it's because you are more interested in scoring points in an argument than actually pursuing truth. I am going to offer many prayers for you.


You know, even though your Church refers to the EP as "You Divine All Holiness", we don't charge you with worshiping your Patriarchs.
That's because besides the title, there is nothing to substantiate the charge.  I've never heard of patriarchal slippers, for instance.
And there is nothing substantial behind your charge either, Isa, and you know it. Why are you so interested in demonstrating that Catholics believe something that we do not believe? Is there some deeper underlying personal issue. Where you mistreated by some Catholic at some point in your development? Again, I will keep you in prayer.
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« Reply #211 on: July 20, 2010, 12:06:36 PM »

Isa,
I have made a distinction and made one that is quite clear. You, for some odd reason, want us to worship the Pope. You want us to be idolators. I thinks it's because you are more interested in scoring points in an argument than actually pursuing truth. I am going to offer many prayers for you.


You know, even though your Church refers to the EP as "You Divine All Holiness", we don't charge you with worshiping your Patriarchs.
That's because besides the title, there is nothing to substantiate the charge.  I've never heard of patriarchal slippers, for instance.
And there is nothing substantial behind your charge either, Isa, and you know it. Why are you so interested in demonstrating that Catholics believe something that we do not believe? Is there some deeper underlying personal issue. Where you mistreated by some Catholic at some point in your development? Again, I will keep you in prayer.
Do you mean was I molested by the brothers and fathers at Latin school? No. Never hit by a nun either.  But around enough to see the cult of the "Holy Father" firsthand. (Matthew 23:9).  So no, it's a deeper ecclesiastical issue.
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« Reply #212 on: July 20, 2010, 12:23:28 PM »

Isa,
I have made a distinction and made one that is quite clear. You, for some odd reason, want us to worship the Pope. You want us to be idolators. I thinks it's because you are more interested in scoring points in an argument than actually pursuing truth. I am going to offer many prayers for you.


You know, even though your Church refers to the EP as "You Divine All Holiness", we don't charge you with worshiping your Patriarchs.
That's because besides the title, there is nothing to substantiate the charge.  I've never heard of patriarchal slippers, for instance.
And there is nothing substantial behind your charge either, Isa, and you know it. Why are you so interested in demonstrating that Catholics believe something that we do not believe? Is there some deeper underlying personal issue. Where you mistreated by some Catholic at some point in your development? Again, I will keep you in prayer.
Do you mean was I molested by the brothers and fathers at Latin school? No. Never hit by a nun either.  But around enough to see the cult of the "Holy Father" firsthand. (Matthew 23:9).  So no, it's a deeper ecclesiastical issue.
Nope, just that you had a bad experience  with Catholics at some point during your formative years. Or is it because you were once Lutheran. I know that there are some groups of Lutherans that are intensely anti-Catholic. Perhaps you absorbed some of their vitriol? I am just trying to understand where your unreasonable anti-Catholicism comes from.
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« Reply #213 on: July 20, 2010, 12:37:54 PM »

Isa,
I have made a distinction and made one that is quite clear. You, for some odd reason, want us to worship the Pope. You want us to be idolators. I thinks it's because you are more interested in scoring points in an argument than actually pursuing truth. I am going to offer many prayers for you.


You know, even though your Church refers to the EP as "You Divine All Holiness", we don't charge you with worshiping your Patriarchs.
That's because besides the title, there is nothing to substantiate the charge.  I've never heard of patriarchal slippers, for instance.
And there is nothing substantial behind your charge either, Isa, and you know it. Why are you so interested in demonstrating that Catholics believe something that we do not believe? Is there some deeper underlying personal issue. Where you mistreated by some Catholic at some point in your development? Again, I will keep you in prayer.
Do you mean was I molested by the brothers and fathers at Latin school? No. Never hit by a nun either.  But around enough to see the cult of the "Holy Father" firsthand. (Matthew 23:9).  So no, it's a deeper ecclesiastical issue.
Nope, just that you had a bad experience  with Catholics at some point during your formative years. Or is it because you were once Lutheran. I know that there are some groups of Lutherans that are intensely anti-Catholic. Perhaps you absorbed some of their vitriol? I am just trying to understand where your unreasonable anti-Catholicism comes from.
Anti-Catholic? I'm very pro-Catholic. I just have no use for ultramontanism. And wheter we are former Protestants, former communicants of the Vatican, converted atheists, or cradle Greeks, Arabs, Russians or Ukrainians, our issues with ultramontanism, repeatedly explicitely stated, we share in common. It comes with Orthodoxy versus heresy.
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« Reply #214 on: July 20, 2010, 12:39:07 PM »

It comes with Orthodoxy versus heresy.
I would think that that was were you were genuinely coming from if it wasn't for the fact that you are so passionately trying to prove that Catholics believe something that we, in fact, do not believe.
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« Reply #215 on: July 20, 2010, 12:46:17 PM »

Nope, just that you had a bad experience  with Catholics at some point during your formative years. Or is it because you were once Lutheran. I know that there are some groups of Lutherans that are intensely anti-Catholic. Perhaps you absorbed some of their vitriol? I am just trying to understand where your unreasonable anti-Catholicism comes from.

Hello all!

Just two things. The first, is that we cut previous history in quotes when referring to the previous email is not necessary for the point being made anymore. As has been noted, it is a nuisance for some users due to how they migh be accessing the forum.

The second is that we are not analysing people here. We can analyse, criticise and even rant about the pictures. But let's not make persons the subject, specially our conjectures about them.
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« Reply #216 on: July 20, 2010, 01:26:38 PM »

Nope, just that you had a bad experience  with Catholics at some point during your formative years. Or is it because you were once Lutheran. I know that there are some groups of Lutherans that are intensely anti-Catholic. Perhaps you absorbed some of their vitriol? I am just trying to understand where your unreasonable anti-Catholicism comes from.

Hello all!

Just two things. The first, is that we cut previous history in quotes when referring to the previous email is not necessary for the point being made anymore. As has been noted, it is a nuisance for some users due to how they migh be accessing the forum.

The second is that we are not analysing people here. We can analyse, criticise and even rant about the pictures. But let's not make persons the subject, specially our conjectures about them.
Fabio, the arguments that you and Isa have been analyzed and it has been demonstrated that they are ridiculous. When we reach that point, and the persons offering the arguments continue to offer their ridiculouls, irrational, and prejudiced positions, it is reasonable to ask where such nonsense is coming from. That's all that I am trying to pin down here.
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« Reply #217 on: July 20, 2010, 01:33:28 PM »

Fabio, the arguments that you and Isa have been analyzed and it has been demonstrated that they are ridiculous. When we reach that point, and the persons offering the arguments continue to offer their ridiculouls, irrational, and prejudiced positions, it is reasonable to ask where such nonsense is coming from. That's all that I am trying to pin down here.
LOL. Rationalization does not count as analysis, let alone demonstration.
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« Reply #218 on: July 20, 2010, 01:39:56 PM »

Fabio, the arguments that you and Isa have been analyzed and it has been demonstrated that they are ridiculous. When we reach that point, and the persons offering the arguments continue to offer their ridiculouls, irrational, and prejudiced positions, it is reasonable to ask where such nonsense is coming from. That's all that I am trying to pin down here.
LOL. Rationalization does not count as analysis, let alone demonstration.
I am not demonstrating that I know why your behavior in this thread is such. I am asking you to tell me why.
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« Reply #219 on: July 20, 2010, 02:49:43 PM »

Quote
Fabio, the arguments that you and Isa [sic] have been analyzed and it has been demonstrated that they are ridiculous.
laugh
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« Reply #220 on: July 20, 2010, 03:06:07 PM »

Fabio, the arguments that you and Isa have been analyzed and it has been demonstrated that they are ridiculous. When we reach that point, and the persons offering the arguments continue to offer their ridiculouls, irrational, and prejudiced positions, it is reasonable to ask where such nonsense is coming from. That's all that I am trying to pin down here.

Trying to not answering by associating repulsive adjectives to something is not analysis.

Not few have understood quite well what the point of the sylogism is. You, on the other hand, have not yet. I'll make it easy for you:

There are two points being made, the first being the subject of the thread itself and the second the one you're strugling with.

The first point was to draw graphically what had been drawn with words. That the graphic image in itself is scandalous is evidence that investigation is necessary on the two verbal images that produced it, that is, that the Body of Christ has two heads, one invisible in Heaven in the Person of Christ and one visible on Earth on the current Pope and various utterances to the effect of "The Pope and Christ are one".

We know that what has been defended currently among RC is that the relation of God and the Pope is one of King and Steward. I pointed out, though, that from those two points, in terms of sheer logic, only two conclusions can be taken: that the Pope and Christ are ontologically one, or that "is" means an iconic relation.

This analysis though confused you and some others. You thought I was talking about what RCs believe while I hadn't even get to that point. I was doing just sheer analysis of words and, when requesting an answer, RC belief could be brought to say it is neither but a king-steward relation. In fact,  *that* was the answer I expected, the third alternative that was never brought up, although it's the true one which explicits what kind of iconic relation there is between God and the Primate.

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