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« on: June 30, 2010, 11:21:55 PM »

Coming to a megachurch near you...


LOL, I saw this and it reminded me of soooo many of the Protestant services I had been to in the past that I had to laugh. (And of course share with y'all!)  laugh
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 12:20:16 AM »

Would you honestly say that this is representative?  I've never been to any kind of protestant service so...just curious more than anything. 
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2010, 01:25:59 AM »

Would you honestly say that this is representative?  I've never been to any kind of protestant service so...just curious more than anything. 
I've been to plenty. Not so much "Mainstream" (though you find services like this there too), but VERY representative of Evangelicals, Free Church, etc.
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2010, 01:31:52 AM »

This was really funny. 

I've been to churches like this.   I attended a church like this for a while actually.  It was nice, really nice people, etc.  They were moving more and more in a traditional direction though and have now joined the Continuing Anglican church- before they were a Vineyard Church.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 01:49:28 AM »

The thing that's really bad about this is that the media company that produced it, North Point Media, is actually a part of one of these churches. So the satire is ruined in a sense, because here we have the obnoxiously ironic self-critique, which recognizes its own flaws but refuses to really change, as if to acknowledge your shortcomings somehow absolves you of them. There is no repentance involved; only sassy commentary.
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 02:02:25 AM »

The thing that's really bad about this is that the media company that produced it, North Point Media, is actually a part of one of these churches. So the satire is ruined in a sense, because here we have the obnoxiously ironic self-critique, which recognizes its own flaws but refuses to really change, as if to acknowledge your shortcomings somehow absolves you of them. There is no repentance involved; only sassy commentary.

Ohhh, this is near where my parents live!
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 02:57:55 AM »

Would you honestly say that this is representative?  I've never been to any kind of protestant service so...just curious more than anything. 

Most definitely YES! I've been to several different churches with this kind of service.
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 04:34:41 AM »

This is actually a direct ripoff of the church we just left; Mars Hill.
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2010, 05:00:32 AM »

Here is a good representation of what Mark Driscoll's sermon style is like. Pay close attention to the end Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkaeAkJO0w8&feature=related

Even though we left the church well before he gave this sermon, I am fairly sure I know the event that sparked this sermon topic. I only hope that they did more then this to help.
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2010, 07:39:29 AM »

To prove that this is not an exaggeration, this is the website of the "church" I was going to during my Protestant detour from Orthodoxy.

If you click on "Watch below to experience Liquid" you will see that it follows the same format as outlined in the satirical video.
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2010, 01:02:36 AM »

Here is a good representation of what Mark Driscoll's sermon style is like. Pay close attention to the end Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkaeAkJO0w8&feature=related

Even though we left the church well before he gave this sermon, I am fairly sure I know the event that sparked this sermon topic. I only hope that they did more then this to help.

does anyone take this seriously?  is anyone really nourished by sermons such as this?  it's not even a sermon...it's a pep talk. 
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2010, 01:15:12 AM »

To prove that this is not an exaggeration, this is the website of the "church" I was going to during my Protestant detour from Orthodoxy.

If you click on "Watch below to experience Liquid" you will see that it follows the same format as outlined in the satirical video.

Wow...this is an incredible glimpse into another world...very interesting actually.  thank you for sharing this. 
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2010, 02:16:14 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhl5ckoMyQ

Here is what Mark Driscoll thinks about the Hagia Sophia.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2010, 02:47:07 AM »

Liquid is hip, cool, energetic!  Liquid is a new kind of church for a new generation!  Experience the energy, excitement and buzz!   Tongue
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2010, 06:22:31 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhl5ckoMyQ

Here is what Mark Driscoll thinks about the Hagia Sophia.

Interesting.
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2010, 10:29:47 AM »

To prove that this is not an exaggeration, this is the website of the "church" I was going to during my Protestant detour from Orthodoxy.

If you click on "Watch below to experience Liquid" you will see that it follows the same format as outlined in the satirical video.


Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2010, 10:36:41 AM »

To prove that this is not an exaggeration, this is the website of the "church" I was going to during my Protestant detour from Orthodoxy.

If you click on "Watch below to experience Liquid" you will see that it follows the same format as outlined in the satirical video.

That's awful! I never could understand how anyone could attend such a church more than once. I've had the misfortune of stepping foot in a church like that on two occasions, and both times I hated every minute of it and there was never the faintest desire to go back. Even before becoming Orthodox, I was always attracted to serious, sober churches. And there are such Protestant churches in existence.
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2010, 11:16:08 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhl5ckoMyQ

Here is what Mark Driscoll thinks about the Hagia Sophia.

This is actually a very interesting and fairly positive talk. I enjoyed it.
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2010, 01:06:49 PM »

I don't want to seem to be a gloomy, disapproving Puritan, but ought we not rather to weep than to laugh, when we see such trendy entertainment presented as worship of the eternal Triune God?
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2010, 01:26:17 PM »

I don't want to seem to be a gloomy, disapproving Puritan, but ought we not rather to weep than to laugh, when we see such trendy entertainment presented as worship of the eternal Triune God?
There is a lot of truth in what you have said. Might I suggest that some of us laugh (even mock) publicly, but weep privately? That is to say, our deepest and most private thoughts and prayers remain that way.
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2010, 01:35:37 PM »

To prove that this is not an exaggeration, this is the website of the "church" I was going to during my Protestant detour from Orthodoxy.

If you click on "Watch below to experience Liquid" you will see that it follows the same format as outlined in the satirical video.

Would this be considered an "Emergent" church? i think a cousin of mine may go to this church from time to time, he's of a Protestant background but calls himself an "emergent" or "postmodern" Christian now.
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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2010, 03:20:34 PM »

I don't want to seem to be a gloomy, disapproving Puritan, but ought we not rather to weep than to laugh, when we see such trendy entertainment presented as worship of the eternal Triune God?

I agree. I don't like my Church services being mocked nor would I dare mock the services of other sincere Christians. And, yet I don't weep at seeing this either. Let me explain.

As unusual as their services seem to us more traditional folk, I do see some self reflection in this newer generation of Evangelicals (at least here in the States). They are challenging the status quo of their parents. They are challenging their parents political views, their obsession with the "end times", in their allegiance to one political party, to making this a "Christian country" again, etc.

They see themselves as helping bring about their churches' "emergence" to deal with this new world, this post-modern world, as it is, not the world their parents want to go back to.  Some of them are even reading early Church fathers and and learning what they had to say. I've even read some of their blogs where they discuss and debate Theosis! I think Bishop NT Wright has had a very positive effect on them in this regards.

I sometimes get infuriated with my cousin who's going through this phase right now, especially with the apparent radical change in his socio-economic/political views. But I also can't help but admire someone willing to challenge everything they were brought up believing.  Its a little like the 60s counter-culture in a small way, only I hope this one leads to good.

The video of Pastor Mark Driscoll at the Hagia Sophia a good example. Obviously, he doesn't quite understand the history of Eastern Orthodoxy or the exact events that led to the Fall of Constantinople, but at least he actually made an honest effort. He didn't just discard the Hagia Sophia as some pagan temple that the corrupt early church built. He even mentioned St. John Chrysostom...er Pastor John the Golden Mouthed  Grin.  Who knows, maybe he's even read some of his works.

So, yes. This is very strange to us. But even here, God is working hard. They will eventually get a little older, a little wiser and want a worship that is a little more complentative and spiritually satisfying. And maybe then, they will find their home in Holy Orthodoxy...or a good Baptist Church, David  Smiley

Cheers!
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2010, 04:01:15 AM »

There is, of course, more than one kind of laughter; for example, there is mockery and there is a spontaneous response to true comedy. In re the latter, when I first saw "Fawlty Towers" I was so convulsed with laughter that literally tears ran down my cheeks and I found it hard to draw breath. Now, some good while ago, someone lent me a video of which a large part consisted of a recording of a "service" held by certain people of Toronto. It was (like the "Fawlty Towers" episode) the first time I had ever seen such a performance, and I had a similar spontaneous, involuntary response. It had the character of high comedy, of cleverly orchestrated farce, and hilarity was my immediate automatic, irresistible response.

But it was, in my view, a travesty of reverence and divine worship - and that, upon looking back to the video, cut me to the quick. I do not think I was guilty for having responded spontaneously to the burlesque (as it came over), but I grieve sorrowfully that He whose blood was shed for my ransom should be named as party to it.
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2010, 04:36:41 AM »

... but I grieve sorrowfully that He whose blood was shed for my ransom should be named as party to it.

 Great point, friend.  Although I'm not sure the Orthodox teaching of Salvation is completely comfortable with the term 'ransom'.  I could be wrong, though; Maybe someone more well-versed could help me out?
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2010, 04:44:22 AM »

The ransom view of salvation is entirely contrary to Orthodox thought. Whom would the ransom be paid to God the Father? Satan? No, "ransom" is not a good term to use for the Orthodox view of salvation.
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« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2010, 04:45:19 AM »

Mark Driscoll was raised as a Catholic if that helps you any. My husband and I were friends of his family for quite awhile, we even babysat his kids. He took our conversion very badly. He does not have any respect for the Eastern Orthodox church from my experience.
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2010, 04:44:34 AM »

The ransom view of salvation is entirely contrary to Orthodox thought. ... "ransom" is not a good term to use for the Orthodox view of salvation.

It seems to me that the scriptures employ a number of analogies, or metaphors, to help us believe in what Christ did for us in his death and resurrection. He did say that he came to "give his life a ransom for many", so I feel confident in using that concept. There are also the metaphors of a debt paid, or washing away the stain of sin with his blood, or his taking our sin off of us and bearing it up to the Cross, of his paying the penalty which our sin had incurred, of his defeating death (the wages of sin) by his dying and rising... and doubtless others which don't immediately spring to mind. I really like what C S Lewis says in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe": quoting from memory and thus perhaps not verbatim, Aslan describes the efficiency of his death for the traitor as "deeper magic from before the dawn of time". Surely that contains a lot of truth: it is a "magic" which we cannot fully understand, but in which we can most certainly believe and trust. One way of helping us was to say that his giving of his lfie was a ransom. It is acceptable therefore, of course: but this does not, I think, penetrate the whole truth in all its aspects.
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2010, 10:13:31 AM »

To prove that this is not an exaggeration, this is the website of the "church" I was going to during my Protestant detour from Orthodoxy.

If you click on "Watch below to experience Liquid" you will see that it follows the same format as outlined in the satirical video.

Would this be considered an "Emergent" church? i think a cousin of mine may go to this church from time to time, he's of a Protestant background but calls himself an "emergent" or "postmodern" Christian now.

Actually they consider themselves Baptist. Liquid started as a Sunday School class for adults in their thirties at Millington Baptist Church. It started with 10 people led  by Tim Lucas, who, at the time, was an English teacher. As the class grew and grew, it then turned into a Sunday evening service at millington, and has now spun off into it's own creation. (Time also quit his job as an English teacher to go into full-time ministry.) It has services on two campuses and broadcasts over the internet. I still have friends that attend there, thus my familiarity with the church.
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« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2010, 02:22:28 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhl5ckoMyQ

Here is what Mark Driscoll thinks about the Hagia Sophia.

 Shocked  His Church History is an epic fail!
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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2010, 06:13:08 PM »

Here is a good representation of what Mark Driscoll's sermon style is like. Pay close attention to the end Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkaeAkJO0w8&feature=related

Even though we left the church well before he gave this sermon, I am fairly sure I know the event that sparked this sermon topic. I only hope that they did more then this to help.
I don't care much for his delivery , but his message that men should treat women with respect is ok by me.
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« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2010, 06:28:18 PM »

The ransom view of salvation is entirely contrary to Orthodox thought. Whom would the ransom be paid to God the Father? Satan? No, "ransom" is not a good term to use for the Orthodox view of salvation.

It's a term that was used by Orthodox Christians for more than a thousand years. The issue is really about how to understand it, but it's a word you will find in the works of many fathers and witnesses








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« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2010, 07:13:05 PM »

The ransom view of salvation is entirely contrary to Orthodox thought. Whom would the ransom be paid to God the Father? Satan? No, "ransom" is not a good term to use for the Orthodox view of salvation.

It's a term that was used by Orthodox Christians for more than a thousand years. The issue is really about how to understand it, but it's a word you will find in the works of many fathers and witnesses


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I've started noticing that there are Orthodox ways of understanding terms like "ransom", "propitiation", "atonement", etc. (which are biblical terms) and even "substitution", but at the same time the terms are understood slightly differently. One example would be that the phrase "God became man so that man could become god" could itself be described as a "substitution", although quite different from how most protestants might understand those words.
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« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2010, 09:22:55 AM »

Mark Driscoll was raised as a Catholic if that helps you any. My husband and I were friends of his family for quite awhile, we even babysat his kids. He took our conversion very badly. He does not have any respect for the Eastern Orthodox church from my experience.

I didn't know that, how very sad.  I guess I was referring more to the "cradle born" Evangelicals.

May the intercession of St. John Chrysostom soften his heart.
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« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2010, 12:34:08 PM »

To prove that this is not an exaggeration, this is the website of the "church" I was going to during my Protestant detour from Orthodoxy.

If you click on "Watch below to experience Liquid" you will see that it follows the same format as outlined in the satirical video.

Would this be considered an "Emergent" church? i think a cousin of mine may go to this church from time to time, he's of a Protestant background but calls himself an "emergent" or "postmodern" Christian now.

Actually they consider themselves Baptist. Liquid started as a Sunday School class for adults in their thirties at Millington Baptist Church. It started with 10 people led  by Tim Lucas, who, at the time, was an English teacher. As the class grew and grew, it then turned into a Sunday evening service at millington, and has now spun off into it's own creation. (Time also quit his job as an English teacher to go into full-time ministry.) It has services on two campuses and broadcasts over the internet. I still have friends that attend there, thus my familiarity with the church.

Thank you.
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2010, 08:10:09 PM »

Here is a new article on Mars Hill
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012619231_marshill14m.html

Quote
Last year, the church opened its first out-of-state campus in Albuquerque, N.M. The pastor there — who was familiar to Mars Hill's leaders — already had started a church, but thought he could reach more people by partnering with Mars Hill. It's all part of the church's hope to create 100 campuses, with 50,000 members, by 2019.
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Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2010, 01:40:34 PM »

Here's another interesting article:


The Perils of 'Wannabe Cool' Christianity

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704111704575355311122648100.html
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"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
Tags: Protestant Christianity 
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