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Author Topic: Anti-Catholicism lies at the heart of Englishness  (Read 2165 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 21, 2010, 04:31:54 PM »

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/f0000579.shtml



Anti-Catholicism lies at the heart of Englishness


Catholics should not be surprised by recent media hostility to the Pope. The press in Britain has plenty of form, writes Serenhedd James

4 June 2010



An Anglican friend recently lamented to me the disparity between the number of people in this country who describe themselves as being “CofE” and the number of those who actually ever set foot inside a church. I suspect that the reason is that when the survey forms come round there isn't a box to tick which says “I’m an ordinary person, with a general-if-not-specific belief in God, and I like to hear the church bells on Sunday morning, while I lie in bed with a cup of tea and the papers: but I’m definitely not a Roman Catholic.”

At the very centre of the national psyche there seems to be a basic suspicion of Catholicism which can be difficult to pinpoint: but it has certainly reared its head recently. The front cover of Private Eye with Pope Benedict on the balcony and the crowd in St Peter’s Square supplying the crude – but hardly unforeseeable – punchline may have shocked some and offended others, but it certainly should not have surprised anyone, as it belongs to a great tradition of English anti-Catholic satire: a tradition which has its roots in the dark days of the penal laws, and its high-water mark in the decades which followed emancipation.

During the penal era, anti-Catholicism was, of course, government policy. It has been argued that the excommunication of Elizabeth in 1570 provided the ideal opportunity for the Cecil administration to implement its abiding achievement: the propagation of the idea it was impossible to be a Catholic and a good Englishman. Against the historical backdrop of Armada, Gunpowder Plot, Civil War, the flight of James II, Jacobite risings of 1715 and 1745, and almost constant war with France, it is easy to see how anti-Catholic feeling was easily sustained in the nation's consciousness.

Rome’s disassociation from the Jacobite cause in 1766 paved the way for the Catholic Relief legislation of the late 1770s, which in 1780 set off rioting in London: and while it is unlikely that more than a handful of the mob cared one way or the other for the Pope, they still rallied to the cry of “no Popery!”

In that context, vehement anti-Catholicism was found in both the mainstream press and satirical journals. Rome was Babylon, and the Pope its Whore: he was the Scarlet Lady, the Antichrist, whose followers were enslaved in his service, and who would cheerfully murder all good Protestants in their beds, given the chance.

Christopher Hibbert’s magnificent description of the Pope as the popular bogeyman was that of “an unseen, ghost-like enemy, lurking behind clouds of wicked incense in a Satanic southern city called Rome”.

The cartoons of James Gillray and his contemporaries make Private Eye look like Enid Blyton: a cartoon praising Scottish Presbyterian resistance to the Catholic Relief Act was entitled – and depicted in graphic detail – “Sawney’s Defence against the Beast, Whore, Pope and Devil”.

The Grand Tour did a lot for the Pope’s image in England, as those who could afford to travel widely in Europe discovered Rome and the Pope for themselves. By the end of the 18th century the penal laws had effectively fallen into abeyance – although they could be exploited in specific cases by unscrupulous individuals – and most Catholics, although barred from high office, were able to live lives of social integration. Emancipation seemed the natural progression, and followed in 1829, shortly before the Great Reform Act of 1832.

However, it would be naive to assume that the legal removal of Catholic disabilities did anything to suppress in the popular mind the suspicion of Catholicism as a foreign influence to be suspected: this sense that Catholics, however distinguished, were in some way not quite English, is one that the Catholic Church in England was unable to shake off as the 19th century progressed.

The early pontificate of Pius IX met with general approval in the British press, which hailed him as a friend of progress and freedom. In 1846 Punch portrayed him as a victor over despotism, felling it with a staff marked “rational liberty”. But the honeymoon was not to last. Pio Nono’s altered weltanschauung after he was forced to flee Rome in 1848, and his policies during the Risorgimento did not meet with favour: in 1861 Punch, again, depicted him in the act of snuffing out the sun of “modern civilisation” with the keys of St Peter. But it was not the Pope’s Italian policies which lost him the sympathy of the media in England.

By 1850, Pius IX had decided to restore the English hierarchy. This might not have made much of a splash, had it been done quietly and diplomatically, and had Nicholas Wiseman not been in charge.

Wiseman was in many ways a fine man and an outstanding bishop, but he did not recognise the eggshells on which he would have to tread. The resulting media frenzy is a defining moment in the history of English anti-Catholicism in the modern era, and the field was led by Punch, and most notably by John Tenniel, whose eye for detail produced cartoons as beautifully drawn as they are politically significant.

The Pope was depicted as a burglar, breaking into the Church of England with a jemmy marked “Roman Archbishopric of Westminster”, with Wiseman as lookout, with an archbishop’s cross for a cudgel. Elsewhere both men crept up on a sleeping John Bull, to smother him with a cardinal’s hat.

Papal bulls with tassels for tails ran headlong into walls, or appeared in cattle shows failing to win any prizes. Wolves in priests’ vestments heard the confessions of kneeling geese, or lured heiresses into convents. Meanwhile, tales of horrors endured at the hands of Catholics became bestsellers: with the usual caveat, the Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk still makes for splendid reading.

Anti-Catholic sentiment in the press may have abated since, and successive Fleet Street editors have been impressed with men like Cardinal Manning with his social policies, or Cardinal Hinsley with his leadership in time of crisis, or Cardinal Hume with his affability and charm.But history has shown us that for all that, a suspicion of Catholicism seems to lies at the heart of the British identity.

No one today seriously believes that the Pope is coming in September to receive Her Majesty’s submission, dissolve Parliament, and rule by Inquisition: but yet for the Catholic Church there remains a particular distaste, quite distinct from the contemporary unease with religious belief in general. As we have seen recently, one does not have to dig very deep to find people willing to attack Catholicism in the public forum.

Should we be surprised that major newspapers seem to have gone out of their way to portray Pope Benedict in a bad light? Probably not, and certainly not in Britain. He may no longer be Whore, Devil, or Antichrist, but when it comes to anti-Catholic sentiment, and hostility towards the person of the Pope, the British secular media has historic form.
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 05:02:37 PM »

Nonsense.

England is the birthplace of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, the first defender of the filioque and then inventer of "atonement." England was given Ireland by the English pope, and I mean in the Vatican, not Cantebury.
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 06:50:30 PM »

England is also mother to most of Protestant sectarianism.
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 07:31:48 PM »

England is also mother to most of Protestant sectarianism.
I think it has to share those honors with the Germans.
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 07:40:16 PM »

Anti-Roman, perhaps, but not anti-Catholic.

Then again, given the unpleasantness of 1588, that would be completely understandable.
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 08:00:47 PM »

England is also mother to most of Protestant sectarianism.
I think it has to share those honors with the Germans.

Indeed, England really can only lay claim to Baptists and Methodists, the first of which split from C of E for being too Catholic although it is possible to trace them back to the Anabaptists, who were from Switzerland.

The Presbyterians are a Scottish bunch, and thus blame cannot be laid at the feet of England, save insofar as the Scots have never been free from England's imperial policy's (but then, Irish Roman Catholicism is just as English in this case as Presbyterianism).  Calvin, and thus Switzerland, is certainly culpable in the creation of this sect.

The further fragmentation of the Baptists is an American innovation.  Likewise the Presbyterians and Methodists.  And we resent any implication that says our faults can be laid at the feet of England.  We did not fight two wars against the English in order to have foreigners disparage us by calling us English.  The only thing English about our nation is the language, and if you've noticed we abuse that as much as possible.

Hmmmm, seems England is really only the Mother of Anglicanism and the Methodists. Even then I would hesitate to call Anglicanism a "protestant" sect, because they've never really protested anything.  More like they issued a polite disagreement to both the Roman Catholics and the Reformation, choosing instead a Via Media (which means you can believe anything you want, so long as your Liturgy is from the Book of Common Prayer [which is itself rooted in the Sarum Rite, with morning and evening prayers from the RC breviary], and you don't make a fuss about it).

So, really, England is the mother of one Protestant sect, the Methodists.  All else was Swiss import.

But the Swiss make good chocolate, excellent clocks, nice knives, and are quite possibly the only country capable of maintaining a neutral stance and not seem weak doing so.  So we forgive them their sects they seem so intent on infesting the civilized world with.
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 08:05:10 PM »

Rome tried to strong-arm its way into English politics, the crown called their bluff and won. It's understandable that the English people would be distrustful of Rome after the nonsense the Pope tried to pull.
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 10:04:43 AM »

Quote
During the penal era, anti-Catholicism was, of course, government policy. It has been argued that the excommunication of Elizabeth in 1570 provided the ideal opportunity for the Cecil administration to implement its abiding achievement: the propagation of the idea it was impossible to be a Catholic and a good Englishman. Against the historical backdrop of Armada, Gunpowder Plot, Civil War, the flight of James II, Jacobite risings of 1715 and 1745, and almost constant war with France, it is easy to see how anti-Catholic feeling was easily sustained in the nation's consciousness.

Interesting article.  Recently I was reading The Construction of Nationhood: Ethnicity, Religion, and Nationalism by Adrian Hastings, a former Catholic priest and professor of Theology at Aberdeen and Leeds.  He asserts that through the Reformation, starting with the assertion of absolute sovereignty and the subsequent swing towards a state protestantism started the trend.  He also asserts that it was largely fortuitous that protestantism and nationalism coincided, due to a lot of the points mentioned above.  Also, the Massacre of St. Bartholemew in 1572, the arrival of the Spanish Armada in 1588, Foxe's Book of Martyrs roused an English nationalism as well as reshaping it in a thoroughly militant Protestant context directed primarily against Spanish imperial ambitions, but also later against French imperial ambitions.
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2010, 10:54:10 AM »

England established the first global empire. Can't get more catholic than that.
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2010, 12:08:00 PM »

England established the first global empire. Can't get more catholic than that.
Uh, not quite.  The Spanish and Portuguese were out in front, by the time the English got in the game, the Iberians were here:
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2010, 12:41:38 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us? 
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2010, 02:36:53 PM »

England is also mother to most of Protestant sectarianism.
I think it has to share those honors with the Germans.

Indeed, England really can only lay claim to Baptists and Methodists, the first of which split from C of E for being too Catholic although it is possible to trace them back to the Anabaptists, who were from Switzerland.

The Presbyterians are a Scottish bunch, and thus blame cannot be laid at the feet of England, save insofar as the Scots have never been free from England's imperial policy's (but then, Irish Roman Catholicism is just as English in this case as Presbyterianism).  Calvin, and thus Switzerland, is certainly culpable in the creation of this sect.

The further fragmentation of the Baptists is an American innovation.  Likewise the Presbyterians and Methodists.  And we resent any implication that says our faults can be laid at the feet of England.  We did not fight two wars against the English in order to have foreigners disparage us by calling us English.  The only thing English about our nation is the language, and if you've noticed we abuse that as much as possible.

Hmmmm, seems England is really only the Mother of Anglicanism and the Methodists. Even then I would hesitate to call Anglicanism a "protestant" sect, because they've never really protested anything.  More like they issued a polite disagreement to both the Roman Catholics and the Reformation, choosing instead a Via Media (which means you can believe anything you want, so long as your Liturgy is from the Book of Common Prayer [which is itself rooted in the Sarum Rite, with morning and evening prayers from the RC breviary], and you don't make a fuss about it).

So, really, England is the mother of one Protestant sect, the Methodists.  All else was Swiss import.

But the Swiss make good chocolate, excellent clocks, nice knives, and are quite possibly the only country capable of maintaining a neutral stance and not seem weak doing so.  So we forgive them their sects they seem so intent on infesting the civilized world with.

The American Prespyterian denominations were first started by English Prespyterian Puritans. The English Parliament of the 17nth century was mostly populated by Presbyterian Puritans, and many of them came to America. The Scottish simply joined their already established Presbyterian churches when they came over here.  

And so England can be blamed for Presbyterianism too.....by way of the English Puritans. The Puritans did split up into many different groups like Congregationalists, low church Episcopalian, and eventually English Separatist ...in whom the Baptists came from.


In regards to Anglicanism ..........it was very bloody and unstable in it's first 100 years. Eventually, as things cooled down, most of it's theology was a hodge podge of Reformed protestantism with a touch of Lutheranism here and there, with a watered down Roman Catholic prayer book, and liturgy. Eventually the high church changed that with the Oxford movement......but even that didn't change the heart of Anglicanism. It just changed it's clothing.....and hats.





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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2010, 02:50:28 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us? 

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.






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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2010, 02:59:37 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us?  

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.

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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2010, 03:08:18 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us?  

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.

ICXC NIKA
Atheism and agnosticism are hoary ideologies. They've existed for thousands of years.

Not in unbroken succession. The modern version comes from 17nth century western Europeans reading the works of the materialistic greek and latin pagan philosophers.

Where do you think Darwinian evolution comes from? It just didn't fall from the sky.....it's a development of what was believed thousands of years ago by greek and latin materialistic pagan philosophers. Instead of life on our planet coming from water dropping from crystals in caves or from a group of Amoeba in a swamp or some type of water. Some ancient materialistic pagans believed life on our planet came from dragon teeth.


After modern western atheism and Agnosticism die out.....because they can only survive when America and Western Europe is strong. But after they die out, any atheists and agnostics of the future will have to come about through reviving the works of the modern atheists today or the ones long ago.

Atheists just don't fall from the sky you know. Everything has a history and a context.





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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2010, 03:12:54 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us?  

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.

ICXC NIKA
Atheism and agnosticism are hoary ideologies. They've existed for thousands of years.

Not in unbroken succession. The modern version comes from 17nth century western Europeans reading the works of the materialistic greek and latin pagan philosophers.

Where do you think Darwinian evolution comes from? It just didn't fall from the sky.....it's a development of what was believed thousands of years ago by greek and latin materialistic pagan philosophers.


After modern western atheism and Agnosticism die out.....because they can only survive when America and Western Europe is strong. But after they die out, any atheists and agnostics of the future will have to come about through reviving the works of the modern atheists today or the ones long ago.

Atheists just don't fall from the sky you know. Everything has a history and a context.

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The West isn't the only place where atheists and agnostics exist.
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2010, 03:20:00 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us?  

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.

ICXC NIKA
Atheism and agnosticism are hoary ideologies. They've existed for thousands of years.

Not in unbroken succession. The modern version comes from 17nth century western Europeans reading the works of the materialistic greek and latin pagan philosophers.

Where do you think Darwinian evolution comes from? It just didn't fall from the sky.....it's a development of what was believed thousands of years ago by greek and latin materialistic pagan philosophers.


After modern western atheism and Agnosticism die out.....because they can only survive when America and Western Europe is strong. But after they die out, any atheists and agnostics of the future will have to come about through reviving the works of the modern atheists today or the ones long ago.

Atheists just don't fall from the sky you know. Everything has a history and a context.

ICXC NIKA
The West isn't the only place where atheists and agnostics exist.

Just as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and others spread out all over the planet, the atheism that came from 17nth century western academia by way of the ancient greek and latin materialistic pagans......also spread out to eastern Europe, china, Japan, south America and elsewhere.

If China ever re-embraces her spiritual, philosophical and religious roots, then say bye bye to modern atheism for it will eventually die out just like the ancient greek and latin forms did.








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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2010, 04:04:46 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us?  

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.

ICXC NIKA
Atheism and agnosticism are hoary ideologies. They've existed for thousands of years.

Not in unbroken succession. The modern version comes from 17nth century western Europeans reading the works of the materialistic greek and latin pagan philosophers.

Where do you think Darwinian evolution comes from? It just didn't fall from the sky.....it's a development of what was believed thousands of years ago by greek and latin materialistic pagan philosophers.


After modern western atheism and Agnosticism die out.....because they can only survive when America and Western Europe is strong. But after they die out, any atheists and agnostics of the future will have to come about through reviving the works of the modern atheists today or the ones long ago.

Atheists just don't fall from the sky you know. Everything has a history and a context.

ICXC NIKA
The West isn't the only place where atheists and agnostics exist.

Just as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and others spread out all over the planet, the atheism that came from 17nth century western academia by way of the ancient greek and latin materialistic pagans......also spread out to eastern Europe, china, Japan, south America and elsewhere.

If China ever re-embraces her spiritual, philosophical and religious roots, then say bye bye to modern atheism for it will eventually die out just like the ancient greek and latin forms did.

ICXC NIKA

Sorry, the dark ages were a one-time show from a time when it was possible for powerful institutions like the Church and State to censor knowledge from their mostly illiterate populations. That time is gone, even states like the PRC are seeing that ability slip through their fingers. The light of knowledge will never again be put out, so long as humanity exists, and day by day the glorious achievements of the enlightenment are banishing the darkness of ignorance and superstition from more and more lands.

I predict your prophecy will fail, it is religion and faith, not science and truth, that will fall by the wayside and become a footnote in human history.
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2010, 04:07:19 PM »

I don't know about anti-Catholicism, but I liked this joke when I heard it:

Baptists believe that they will go to hell if they dance or drink alcohol.

Calvinists believe that they will not go to hell under any circumstances because they are the elect.

Roman Catholics believe that they will go to hell if they eat meat on Friday.

Seventh Day Adventists believe that they will go to hell if they begin to celebrate Sundays instead of Saturdays.

Members of the Church of England (and American Episcopalians) believe that hell is the proper punishment for those people who do not know with what fork to eat lobster during a dinner at the rectory.
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2010, 04:50:29 PM »

I don't know about anti-Catholicism, but I liked this joke when I heard it:

Baptists believe that they will go to hell if they dance or drink alcohol.

Calvinists believe that they will not go to hell under any circumstances because they are the elect.

Roman Catholics believe that they will go to hell if they eat meat on Friday.

Seventh Day Adventists believe that they will go to hell if they begin to celebrate Sundays instead of Saturdays.

Members of the Church of England (and American Episcopalians) believe that hell is the proper punishment for those people who do not know with what fork to eat lobster during a dinner at the rectory.

laugh  Brilliant!
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2010, 10:51:09 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us?  

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.

ICXC NIKA
Atheism and agnosticism are hoary ideologies. They've existed for thousands of years.

Not in unbroken succession. The modern version comes from 17nth century western Europeans reading the works of the materialistic greek and latin pagan philosophers.

Where do you think Darwinian evolution comes from? It just didn't fall from the sky.....it's a development of what was believed thousands of years ago by greek and latin materialistic pagan philosophers.


After modern western atheism and Agnosticism die out.....because they can only survive when America and Western Europe is strong. But after they die out, any atheists and agnostics of the future will have to come about through reviving the works of the modern atheists today or the ones long ago.

Atheists just don't fall from the sky you know. Everything has a history and a context.

ICXC NIKA
The West isn't the only place where atheists and agnostics exist.

Just as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and others spread out all over the planet, the atheism that came from 17nth century western academia by way of the ancient greek and latin materialistic pagans......also spread out to eastern Europe, china, Japan, south America and elsewhere.

If China ever re-embraces her spiritual, philosophical and religious roots, then say bye bye to modern atheism for it will eventually die out just like the ancient greek and latin forms did.

ICXC NIKA

Sorry, the dark ages were a one-time show from a time when it was possible for powerful institutions like the Church and State to censor knowledge from their mostly illiterate populations. That time is gone, even states like the PRC are seeing that ability slip through their fingers. The light of knowledge will never again be put out, so long as humanity exists, and day by day the glorious achievements of the enlightenment are banishing the darkness of ignorance and superstition from more and more lands.

I predict your prophecy will fail, it is religion and faith, not science and truth, that will fall by the wayside and become a footnote in human history.

People thought that way in the 1930's and the 1960's, and you can see that same false reality on the old star trek tv shows and films, but religious folk never went anywhere, and they will always outproduce(have more babies) than nonreligious folk.

Islam is taking over western Europe as we speak. The atheists and liberals in this country got scared with the rise of the religious right in this country and the presidencies of Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. The 8 years of bush in the white house brought out all the atheists and agnostics. We know who they are on tv, in holywood, work, school.....etc.

Your atheistic utopia will never happen, and more and more of you will cry and run for Canada in 2012. When this country falls, and when western Europe falls........it's lights out! For uncle Sam will no longer have the power to restrain and marginalize religious folk!

By the way, censorship is already happening to religious folk......mainly christians. And so you guys are already doing it. You have been doing it for centuries. But a time will come, when the state /countries will no longer have the resources to stop us. Just like the old Roman Empire ran out of resources to stop the barbarians. The money will dry up, the gangs and drug lords will pillage, atheists and agnostics will continue to abort most of their kids, and religious folk will survive the turmoil for they will convert the drug lords, bikers, punk rockers, prison gangs and streetgangs......the modern barbarians!

Education and technology is not against religious folk. Eastern Christianity didn't censor the greek pagan writings, nor did the muslims...... and so what are you talking about? Dark ages? That wasn't universal! The truth is, we will survive and atheism will not. It will die out.

And if it comes back....it will be because somebody in the future will read something some atheist today wrote or some atheist centuries ago or thousands of years ago. You guys are like the Sith........you keep coming back to destroy the republic.






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« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 11:08:12 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2010, 11:45:32 PM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us?  

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.

ICXC NIKA
Atheism and agnosticism are hoary ideologies. They've existed for thousands of years.

Not in unbroken succession. The modern version comes from 17nth century western Europeans reading the works of the materialistic greek and latin pagan philosophers.

Where do you think Darwinian evolution comes from? It just didn't fall from the sky.....it's a development of what was believed thousands of years ago by greek and latin materialistic pagan philosophers.


After modern western atheism and Agnosticism die out.....because they can only survive when America and Western Europe is strong. But after they die out, any atheists and agnostics of the future will have to come about through reviving the works of the modern atheists today or the ones long ago.

Atheists just don't fall from the sky you know. Everything has a history and a context.

ICXC NIKA
The West isn't the only place where atheists and agnostics exist.

Just as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and others spread out all over the planet, the atheism that came from 17nth century western academia by way of the ancient greek and latin materialistic pagans......also spread out to eastern Europe, china, Japan, south America and elsewhere.

If China ever re-embraces her spiritual, philosophical and religious roots, then say bye bye to modern atheism for it will eventually die out just like the ancient greek and latin forms did.

ICXC NIKA

Sorry, the dark ages were a one-time show from a time when it was possible for powerful institutions like the Church and State to censor knowledge from their mostly illiterate populations. That time is gone, even states like the PRC are seeing that ability slip through their fingers. The light of knowledge will never again be put out, so long as humanity exists, and day by day the glorious achievements of the enlightenment are banishing the darkness of ignorance and superstition from more and more lands.

I predict your prophecy will fail, it is religion and faith, not science and truth, that will fall by the wayside and become a footnote in human history.

People thought that way in the 1930's and the 1960's, and you can see that same false reality on the old star trek tv shows and films, but religious folk never went anywhere, and they will always outproduce(have more babies) than nonreligious folk.

Islam is taking over western Europe as we speak. The atheists and liberals in this country got scared with the rise of the religious right in this country and the presidencies of Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. The 8 years of bush in the white house brought out all the atheists and agnostics. We know who they are on tv, in holywood, work, school.....etc.

Your atheistic utopia will never happen, and more and more of you will cry and run for Canada in 2012. When this country falls, and when western Europe falls........it's lights out! For uncle Sam will no longer have the power to restrain and marginalize religious folk!

By the way, censorship is already happening to religious folk......mainly christians. And so you guys are already doing it. You have been doing it for centuries. But a time will come, when the state /countries will no longer have the resources to stop us. Just like the old Roman Empire ran out of resources to stop the barbarians. The money will dry up, the gangs and drug lords will pillage, atheists and agnostics will continue to abort most of their kids, and religious folk will survive the turmoil for they will convert the drug lords, bikers, punk rockers, prison gangs and streetgangs......the modern barbarians!

Education and technology is not against religious folk. Eastern Christianity didn't censor the greek pagan writings, nor did the muslims...... and so what are you talking about? Dark ages? That wasn't universal! The truth is, we will survive and atheism will not. It will die out.

And if it comes back....it will be because somebody in the future will read something some atheist today wrote or some atheist centuries ago or thousands of years ago. You guys are like the Sith........you keep coming back to destroy the republic.

ICXC NIKA

Atheism is on the rise, the non-religious constitute a majority of several societies and those societies tend to be the most prosperous and advanced in the world. Even in the deeply religious United States, the non-religious group is on the rise whereas religion is on the decline. In Higher Academia atheism and agnosticism are expected, religion has become the domain of the uneducated.

Oh, and most Atheists and Agnostics are children of Religious parents...that's simply the nature of our country's past. Each generation is less and less religious, quite the opposite of what your theory based on birth rate would suggest. People generally belong to a religion because they're born into it, true; but, people generally become atheists because they become educated, some of you may be willing to condemn their children to ignorance to enforce a superstition. However, in general, our evolutionary desire to see our offspring succeed prevails over fundamentalist dogma, so parents will continue to educate their children and by this act will, though perhaps not intentionally, expose their children to logic, to reason, to atheism and thereby sponsor its growth.
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2010, 04:20:43 AM »


Atheism is on the rise, the non-religious constitute a majority of several societies and those societies tend to be the most prosperous and advanced in the world. Even in the deeply religious United States, the non-religious group is on the rise whereas religion is on the decline. In Higher Academia atheism and agnosticism are expected, religion has become the domain of the uneducated.

Oh, and most Atheists and Agnostics are children of Religious parents...that's simply the nature of our country's past. Each generation is less and less religious, quite the opposite of what your theory based on birth rate would suggest. People generally belong to a religion because they're born into it, true; but, people generally become atheists because they become educated, some of you may be willing to condemn their children to ignorance to enforce a superstition. However, in general, our evolutionary desire to see our offspring succeed prevails over fundamentalist dogma, so parents will continue to educate their children and by this act will, though perhaps not intentionally, expose their children to logic, to reason, to atheism and thereby sponsor its growth.

The problem is that the religious have far more children than the non-religious. Regardless of whether or not atheistic materialism is the true state of the universe, the next few centuries are going to be dominated by Islam in Europe and Asia, and Christianity in the Americans and probably Africa. The problem is that religious people breed much more prodigiously than non-religious. Contraception, abortion, and homosexuality, the Holy Trinity of modern American immorality, all share one thing in common: disdain for human life. Contraception because it prevents human life, abortion because it kills human life, and homosexuality because it separates sexuality from the creation of life. Because atheists tend to have no problem with these three sins, they are more likely to allow and condone them.

Human life is not a disease. Its creation is to be honored by being celebrated only within the Sacrament of Matrimony, its existence is not to be intentionally prevented by artificial means, and its continued existence should be protected, even within the womb of the mother.

When you treat human life as a disease, you will find, very quickly, that there is not much of it left. Humans have always proven to be effective exterminators. Hence, unless you pony up and raise yourself ten little atheists, your descendants (if you have any) will find themselves in an extremely small and persecuted minority - not necessarily at the hands of Rome, Constantinople, or any Christians. I would be wary of Mecca.
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2010, 10:41:19 AM »

Quote
Sorry, the dark ages were a one-time show from a time when it was possible for powerful institutions like the Church and State to censor knowledge from their mostly illiterate populations. That time is gone, even states like the PRC are seeing that ability slip through their fingers. The light of knowledge will never again be put out, so long as humanity exists, and day by day the glorious achievements of the enlightenment are banishing the darkness of ignorance and superstition from more and more lands.

I predict your prophecy will fail, it is religion and faith, not science and truth, that will fall by the wayside and become a footnote in human history.
Basically, you'd have to study works of such prominence such as the God delusion(ok, it was a joke  Smiley ) the Eclipse of Reason or the "Dialectics of Enlightenment"(Horkheimer/Adorno and the School of Frankfurt), to see how, for example, even the Papist "Church"(it came from a schism of the Catholic Orthodox Church, the one founded by Christ for all it's worth) forbade the writing of Galileus and many more(most were outspoken Christians) for epistemological reasons. And this is exactly why one of the most prominent greek scholars (and Minister of Education)had written once, that "The philosopher of Middle Ages was Aristotle".  Wink

You people really can't see the dogmatic basis upon modern science is based(and that's why Kondylis, an atheist himself,  had written that its basis is irrational or "mystic"), you render absolute a certain methodology of obtaining knowledge.

But the most outstanding of all is these prophecies, which have been made by so many people before that resemble the ones by Witnesses of Jehova!  Smiley Even poor Nietzsche thought that he would see the last Christian on Earth, and Voltaire said sth similar regarding the Bible(would be sold only in oldbook and oldstuff stores), didn't they?


Now, on the topic itself: isn't it true that the American people rebelled against the corrupt English so-called Church, in order to undo its stifling authority? This was written by an Englishman academian, mind you, the same who wrote "Dawkins delusion?".  Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2010, 11:45:46 AM »

Yes, but when they did get in it they were foremost power for  hundreds of years. And while I am not for empire and colonization I must admire there ability to rule such a vast and far flung empire with great precision. But alas they have been supplanted by the USA, though I think we will be more of a shooting star. Now who will replace us?  

Hopefully when we are no longer a 1st world power, extreme secularism will die out with us. The atheists and agnostics can't breath without secularism. And so when it dies, they will naturally die too.

ICXC NIKA
Atheism and agnosticism are hoary ideologies. They've existed for thousands of years.

Not in unbroken succession. The modern version comes from 17nth century western Europeans reading the works of the materialistic greek and latin pagan philosophers.

Where do you think Darwinian evolution comes from? It just didn't fall from the sky.....it's a development of what was believed thousands of years ago by greek and latin materialistic pagan philosophers.


After modern western atheism and Agnosticism die out.....because they can only survive when America and Western Europe is strong. But after they die out, any atheists and agnostics of the future will have to come about through reviving the works of the modern atheists today or the ones long ago.

Atheists just don't fall from the sky you know. Everything has a history and a context.

ICXC NIKA
The West isn't the only place where atheists and agnostics exist.

Just as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and others spread out all over the planet, the atheism that came from 17nth century western academia by way of the ancient greek and latin materialistic pagans......also spread out to eastern Europe, china, Japan, south America and elsewhere.

If China ever re-embraces her spiritual, philosophical and religious roots, then say bye bye to modern atheism for it will eventually die out just like the ancient greek and latin forms did.

ICXC NIKA

Sorry, the dark ages were a one-time show from a time when it was possible for powerful institutions like the Church and State to censor knowledge from their mostly illiterate populations. That time is gone, even states like the PRC are seeing that ability slip through their fingers. The light of knowledge will never again be put out, so long as humanity exists, and day by day the glorious achievements of the enlightenment are banishing the darkness of ignorance and superstition from more and more lands.

I predict your prophecy will fail, it is religion and faith, not science and truth, that will fall by the wayside and become a footnote in human history.

People thought that way in the 1930's and the 1960's, and you can see that same false reality on the old star trek tv shows and films, but religious folk never went anywhere, and they will always outproduce(have more babies) than nonreligious folk.

Islam is taking over western Europe as we speak. The atheists and liberals in this country got scared with the rise of the religious right in this country and the presidencies of Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. The 8 years of bush in the white house brought out all the atheists and agnostics. We know who they are on tv, in holywood, work, school.....etc.

Your atheistic utopia will never happen, and more and more of you will cry and run for Canada in 2012. When this country falls, and when western Europe falls........it's lights out! For uncle Sam will no longer have the power to restrain and marginalize religious folk!

By the way, censorship is already happening to religious folk......mainly christians. And so you guys are already doing it. You have been doing it for centuries. But a time will come, when the state /countries will no longer have the resources to stop us. Just like the old Roman Empire ran out of resources to stop the barbarians. The money will dry up, the gangs and drug lords will pillage, atheists and agnostics will continue to abort most of their kids, and religious folk will survive the turmoil for they will convert the drug lords, bikers, punk rockers, prison gangs and streetgangs......the modern barbarians!

Education and technology is not against religious folk. Eastern Christianity didn't censor the greek pagan writings, nor did the muslims...... and so what are you talking about? Dark ages? That wasn't universal! The truth is, we will survive and atheism will not. It will die out.

And if it comes back....it will be because somebody in the future will read something some atheist today wrote or some atheist centuries ago or thousands of years ago. You guys are like the Sith........you keep coming back to destroy the republic.

ICXC NIKA

Atheism is on the rise, the non-religious constitute a majority of several societies and those societies tend to be the most prosperous and advanced in the world. Even in the deeply religious United States, the non-religious group is on the rise whereas religion is on the decline. In Higher Academia atheism and agnosticism are expected, religion has become the domain of the uneducated.

Oh, and most Atheists and Agnostics are children of Religious parents...that's simply the nature of our country's past. Each generation is less and less religious, quite the opposite of what your theory based on birth rate would suggest. People generally belong to a religion because they're born into it, true; but, people generally become atheists because they become educated, some of you may be willing to condemn their children to ignorance to enforce a superstition. However, in general, our evolutionary desire to see our offspring succeed prevails over fundamentalist dogma, so parents will continue to educate their children and by this act will, though perhaps not intentionally, expose their children to logic, to reason, to atheism and thereby sponsor its growth.

Most atheists and agnostics are children of religious parents because the state/country supports the atheistic and agnostic teachers and professors to evangelize our kids into atheism. But I already told you that when our economy collapses it's gonna be lights out for uncle sam won't have the funds to keep us marginalized. They won't have the funds nor the power to stop us when it comes to firing all teachers and professors who use their classroom as a platform for atheism. They will be fired just like christian teachers are fired now.

Now why will we do this? Because alot of us from the 1960's on up already survived the atheistic brainwashing with our faith in tact, and so we are immune to your atheism. And we will be the ones pushing to get these evangelistic atheists and agnostics fired! We will sue the schools like crazy until they cave in! If we are not allowed to use the classroom to evangelize........then you can't either!

It's gonna be ruff for christian hating atheists in 2012. And so you better become a christian loving atheist(yes they do exist).......because you won't survive if you are going to be open in your hatred of Christians.


And yes.......christians alone can make the world economy collapse if we wanted to. 2/3 of our economy is based on us buying stuff......well guess what? We can protest and boycott any company that refuse to say MerryChristmas in December! Any city that refuses to say Mary Christmas or refuses to put up a manger scene will be boycotted and we could always make threats to only spend our money at places that respect our traditions.

This alone will either change things right away or it will cause the market to collapse! The power to destroy the western world is in our hands! And when the western world goes under........your power and influence to marginalize Christians will go under with it.










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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2010, 11:51:00 AM »

It's gonna be ruff for christian hating atheists in 2012. And so you better become a christian loving atheist(yes they do exist).......because you won't survive if you are going to be open in your hatred of Christians.

Are you predicting the rise of a theocratic, Inquisitorial state in two years?
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2010, 12:13:24 PM »

It's gonna be ruff for christian hating atheists in 2012. And so you better become a christian loving atheist(yes they do exist).......because you won't survive if you are going to be open in your hatred of Christians.

Are you predicting the rise of a theocratic, Inquisitorial state in two years?

No, just the beginning of the end of western extreme secularism as we know it. The Bush years showed who were the ones that hate Christians. They all came out and exposed themselves! The Obama years showed the true colors of the left, as well as what alot of the Bush haters really wanted. Now that we know where everyone stands, it's time to have another civil war! But this time a bloodless civil war! For all we have to do is vote and spend our money on those companies that respect our traditions.....as well as set up more alternatives in the media. There needs to be a second Holywood that caters to conservatives, and conservative values. There also needs to be an alternative secular music industry that only caters to conservative traditions and values. And there needs to be more conservative tv channels with more conservative family friendly shows! And uncle sam needs to get out of our kitchen, our work place, our homes, our bodies..like our weight,......in how we raise kids.....and our churches.....regulating what we can and can't say to church goers in a political year, as well as what we can and can't say on the airwaves.

There needs to be a bloodless civil war! A secular schism! 2012 is the end of the modern Democratic party! They will have to become more moderate if they are gonna survive. The way they are now is nothing more than party genocide!







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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2010, 12:16:50 PM »

There needs to be a bloodless civil war! A secular schism!
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« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2010, 12:28:43 PM »

There needs to be a bloodless civil war! A secular schism!
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I'm sorry, but I would rather see America collapse then live under extreme secularism. It is either America collapse or we create an alternative secular American world.








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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2010, 01:13:11 PM »

It's gonna be ruff for christian hating atheists in 2012. And so you better become a christian loving atheist(yes they do exist).......because you won't survive if you are going to be open in your hatred of Christians.

Are you predicting the rise of a theocratic, Inquisitorial state in two years?

No, just the beginning of the end of western extreme secularism as we know it. The Bush years showed who were the ones that hate Christians. They all came out and exposed themselves! The Obama years showed the true colors of the left, as well as what alot of the Bush haters really wanted. Now that we know where everyone stands, it's time to have another civil war! But this time a bloodless civil war! For all we have to do is vote and spend our money on those companies that respect our traditions.....as well as set up more alternatives in the media. There needs to be a second Holywood that caters to conservatives, and conservative values. There also needs to be an alternative secular music industry that only caters to conservative traditions and values. And there needs to be more conservative tv channels with more conservative family friendly shows! And uncle sam needs to get out of our kitchen, our work place, our homes, our bodies..like our weight,......in how we raise kids.....and our churches.....regulating what we can and can't say to church goers in a political year, as well as what we can and can't say on the airwaves.

There needs to be a bloodless civil war! A secular schism! 2012 is the end of the modern Democratic party! They will have to become more moderate if they are gonna survive. The way they are now is nothing more than party genocide!

ICXC NIKA

This is some funny stuff...I'd really like to tear you a new one, I'm sure it would be quite enjoyable. You're just making it so easy...

Unfortunately, this is NOT the Politics board. So move your comments over there so we can discuss this properly.
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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2010, 01:15:35 PM »

There needs to be a bloodless civil war! A secular schism!
Shocked

I'm sorry, but I would rather see America collapse then live under extreme secularism. It is either America collapse or we create an alternative secular American world.

ICXC NIKA

Despite the efforts of you and your friends in the Michigan Militia, America isn't going to collapse, for all our problems we still have the strongest economy on earth, not to even mention our military capabilities. At first I thought all this was a joke, but now you're starting to scare me...you don't actually take this rhetoric seriously, do you?
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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2010, 01:21:47 PM »

As GiC pointed out, parts of this thread are starting to toe the line.  jnorm888's post (reply #26) is okay for the public fora as it stands, but any further political discussion belongs over on the Politics forum, especially regarding the American political landscape with his off-topic.

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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2010, 02:56:50 PM »

Quote
Sorry, the dark ages were a one-time show from a time when it was possible for powerful institutions like the Church and State to censor knowledge from their mostly illiterate populations. That time is gone, even states like the PRC are seeing that ability slip through their fingers. The light of knowledge will never again be put out, so long as humanity exists, and day by day the glorious achievements of the enlightenment are banishing the darkness of ignorance and superstition from more and more lands.

I predict your prophecy will fail, it is religion and faith, not science and truth, that will fall by the wayside and become a footnote in human history.
Basically, you'd have to study works of such prominence such as the God delusion(ok, it was a joke  Smiley ) the Eclipse of Reason or the "Dialectics of Enlightenment"(Horkheimer/Adorno and the School of Frankfurt), to see how, for example, even the Papist "Church"(it came from a schism of the Catholic Orthodox Church, the one founded by Christ for all it's worth) forbade the writing of Galileus and many more(most were outspoken Christians) for epistemological reasons. And this is exactly why one of the most prominent greek scholars (and Minister of Education)had written once, that "The philosopher of Middle Ages was Aristotle".  Wink

You people really can't see the dogmatic basis upon modern science is based(and that's why Kondylis, an atheist himself,  had written that its basis is irrational or "mystic"), you render absolute a certain methodology of obtaining knowledge.

But the most outstanding of all is these prophecies, which have been made by so many people before that resemble the ones by Witnesses of Jehova!  Smiley Even poor Nietzsche thought that he would see the last Christian on Earth, and Voltaire said sth similar regarding the Bible(would be sold only in oldbook and oldstuff stores), didn't they?


Now, on the topic itself: isn't it true that the American people rebelled against the corrupt English so-called Church, in order to undo its stifling authority? This was written by an Englishman academian, mind you, the same who wrote "Dawkins delusion?".  Smiley


I a not sure that you are allowed to call Catholics "Papists" on thsi forum. Just a heads up.
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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2010, 02:56:50 PM »

There needs to be a bloodless civil war! A secular schism!
Shocked

I'm sorry, but I would rather see America collapse then live under extreme secularism. It is either America collapse or we create an alternative secular American world.

Rather than see America collapse, I would like to see it cleansed of dogmatic secularism and irrational atheism.







ICXC NIKA
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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2010, 10:53:52 PM »

There needs to be a bloodless civil war! A secular schism!
Shocked

I'm sorry, but I would rather see America collapse then live under extreme secularism. It is either America collapse or we create an alternative secular American world.

ICXC NIKA

Despite the efforts of you and your friends in the Michigan Militia, America isn't going to collapse, for all our problems we still have the strongest economy on earth, not to even mention our military capabilities. At first I thought all this was a joke, but now you're starting to scare me...you don't actually take this rhetoric seriously, do you?

I am a semi-pacifist(I believe in nonviolence just like Dr. Martin Luther King jr.) and so I don't believe in violence. There are other ways to collapse the economy! Like boycotts in December and April! But I'm sorry.....for I'm no longer allowed to talk about politics on this thread.

And yes I was serious! But back to the issue of the thread!




ICXC NIKA
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2010, 12:12:16 AM »

England is also mother to most of Protestant sectarianism.
I think it has to share those honors with the Germans.

Indeed, England really can only lay claim to Baptists and Methodists, the first of which split from C of E for being too Catholic although it is possible to trace them back to the Anabaptists, who were from Switzerland.

The Presbyterians are a Scottish bunch, and thus blame cannot be laid at the feet of England, save insofar as the Scots have never been free from England's imperial policy's (but then, Irish Roman Catholicism is just as English in this case as Presbyterianism).  Calvin, and thus Switzerland, is certainly culpable in the creation of this sect.

The further fragmentation of the Baptists is an American innovation.  Likewise the Presbyterians and Methodists.  And we resent any implication that says our faults can be laid at the feet of England.  We did not fight two wars against the English in order to have foreigners disparage us by calling us English.  The only thing English about our nation is the language, and if you've noticed we abuse that as much as possible.

Hmmmm, seems England is really only the Mother of Anglicanism and the Methodists. Even then I would hesitate to call Anglicanism a "protestant" sect, because they've never really protested anything.  More like they issued a polite disagreement to both the Roman Catholics and the Reformation, choosing instead a Via Media (which means you can believe anything you want, so long as your Liturgy is from the Book of Common Prayer [which is itself rooted in the Sarum Rite, with morning and evening prayers from the RC breviary], and you don't make a fuss about it).

So, really, England is the mother of one Protestant sect, the Methodists.  All else was Swiss import.

But the Swiss make good chocolate, excellent clocks, nice knives, and are quite possibly the only country capable of maintaining a neutral stance and not seem weak doing so.  So we forgive them their sects they seem so intent on infesting the civilized world with.

The American Prespyterian denominations were first started by English Prespyterian Puritans. The English Parliament of the 17nth century was mostly populated by Presbyterian Puritans, and many of them came to America. The Scottish simply joined their already established Presbyterian churches when they came over here.  

And so England can be blamed for Presbyterianism too.....by way of the English Puritans. The Puritans did split up into many different groups like Congregationalists, low church Episcopalian, and eventually English Separatist ...in whom the Baptists came from.


In regards to Anglicanism ..........it was very bloody and unstable in it's first 100 years. Eventually, as things cooled down, most of it's theology was a hodge podge of Reformed protestantism with a touch of Lutheranism here and there, with a watered down Roman Catholic prayer book, and liturgy. Eventually the high church changed that with the Oxford movement......but even that didn't change the heart of Anglicanism. It just changed it's clothing.....and hats.





ICXC NIKA

*sigh*  A good satire yet again killed by a deluge of facts.  Jnorm, you're rainin' on my parade!  Cheesy

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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2010, 09:19:05 AM »

Quote
Sorry, the dark ages were a one-time show from a time when it was possible for powerful institutions like the Church and State to censor knowledge from their mostly illiterate populations. That time is gone, even states like the PRC are seeing that ability slip through their fingers. The light of knowledge will never again be put out, so long as humanity exists, and day by day the glorious achievements of the enlightenment are banishing the darkness of ignorance and superstition from more and more lands.

I predict your prophecy will fail, it is religion and faith, not science and truth, that will fall by the wayside and become a footnote in human history.
Basically, you'd have to study works of such prominence such as the God delusion(ok, it was a joke  Smiley ) the Eclipse of Reason or the "Dialectics of Enlightenment"(Horkheimer/Adorno and the School of Frankfurt), to see how, for example, even the Papist "Church"(it came from a schism of the Catholic Orthodox Church, the one founded by Christ for all it's worth) forbade the writing of Galileus and many more(most were outspoken Christians) for epistemological reasons. And this is exactly why one of the most prominent greek scholars (and Minister of Education)had written once, that "The philosopher of Middle Ages is Aristotle".  Wink

You people really can't see the dogmatic basis upon modern science is based(and that's why Kondylis, an atheist himself,  had written that its basis is irrational or "mystic"), you render absolute a certain methodology of obtaining knowledge.

But the most outstanding of all is these prophecies, which have been made by so many people before that resemble the ones by Witnesses of Jehova!  Smiley Even poor Nietzsche thought that he would see the last Christian on Earth, and Voltaire said sth similar regarding the Bible(would be sold only in oldbook and oldstuff stores), didn't they?


Now, on the topic itself: isn't it true that the American people rebelled against the corrupt English so-called Church, in order to undo its stifling authority? This was written by an Englishman academian, mind you, the same who wrote "Dawkins delusion?".  Smiley


I a not sure that you are allowed to call Catholics "Papists" on thsi forum. Just a heads up.
I'm not into the "politically correct" mentality.   laugh
Excuse me for this...   Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2010, 12:11:49 PM »

Quote
Sorry, the dark ages were a one-time show from a time when it was possible for powerful institutions like the Church and State to censor knowledge from their mostly illiterate populations. That time is gone, even states like the PRC are seeing that ability slip through their fingers. The light of knowledge will never again be put out, so long as humanity exists, and day by day the glorious achievements of the enlightenment are banishing the darkness of ignorance and superstition from more and more lands.

I predict your prophecy will fail, it is religion and faith, not science and truth, that will fall by the wayside and become a footnote in human history.
Basically, you'd have to study works of such prominence such as the God delusion(ok, it was a joke  Smiley ) the Eclipse of Reason or the "Dialectics of Enlightenment"(Horkheimer/Adorno and the School of Frankfurt), to see how, for example, even the Papist "Church"(it came from a schism of the Catholic Orthodox Church, the one founded by Christ for all it's worth) forbade the writing of Galileus and many more(most were outspoken Christians) for epistemological reasons. And this is exactly why one of the most prominent greek scholars (and Minister of Education)had written once, that "The philosopher of Middle Ages is Aristotle".  Wink

You people really can't see the dogmatic basis upon modern science is based(and that's why Kondylis, an atheist himself,  had written that its basis is irrational or "mystic"), you render absolute a certain methodology of obtaining knowledge.

But the most outstanding of all is these prophecies, which have been made by so many people before that resemble the ones by Witnesses of Jehova!  Smiley Even poor Nietzsche thought that he would see the last Christian on Earth, and Voltaire said sth similar regarding the Bible(would be sold only in oldbook and oldstuff stores), didn't they?


Now, on the topic itself: isn't it true that the American people rebelled against the corrupt English so-called Church, in order to undo its stifling authority? This was written by an Englishman academian, mind you, the same who wrote "Dawkins delusion?".  Smiley


I a not sure that you are allowed to call Catholics "Papists" on thsi forum. Just a heads up.
I'm not into the "politically correct" mentality.   laugh
Excuse me for this...   Smiley
Oh, I am not offended. Just giving you a heads up so that you don't end up "warned" or "moderated".
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2010, 12:10:01 AM »

A lot of young people embrace atheism/agnosticism in order to be trendy and rebel against their parents and what they perceive to be society.  I wouldn't be surprised to find a lot of today's militant young secularist slouching in the pews of Christian churches twenty or thirty years from now.  The secular atheist of today make the same militant arguments and predictions over religions downfall as did the League of the godless from Soviet times.  Where is the latter group now in Russian society?

Yes, modern secular Europe is going over to the Muslims now.  What will become of all the secularist when Islam and its Sharia law become the dominant force in European society?

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