ByzantineSerb writes:Of course, J.P. II could abolish them. Besides, the liberal USCCB (and the other Bishop conferences) are not traditional, AFAIK. But he will not abolish the liberal powers' it's his fault.
Abolish them? Who listens to the Pope anyway? Certainly not many in the hierarchy or many of the rank and file RC's it would seem. And certainly not the Orthodox!
[lame attempt at humor]I mean this in good spirits, but H.H. John Paul II is the most liberal pope thus far. I mean, I'd fear to think what St. Pius X, for example, might think of him!
The heresy of Modernism as Pope St. Pius X condemned it is alive and well in the RCC as well as in society itself. JPII, however, is not a modernist. His encyclicals demonstrate the need to "engage the culture." I'm not sure it is working out. Did the Orthodox try to engage the culture of Communist Russia? No, the communists didn't even listen or give Orthodoxy a chance. They just deleted it (martyrdom), coopted it (some sort of Officially sanctioned Church), and/or drove it underground (the Catacomb Church). Currently the RCC is on the radar screen of our society's modernists who want to destroy it or coopt it; once Orthodoxy gets on their radar screens the same thing will be attempted with the Orthodox, that is, if it hasn't already started!He has done many great things (esp. Orientale Lumen, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, among others), and then many controversial things (kissing the sinister Koran, Assisi gatherings, etc). If the next pontiff is more liberal then him, kyrie eleison.
I can't argue with this statement!Also, the "liturgical renewel" has far been less then wonderful.
Sure seems like it to me too. In "Witness to Hope," the recent biography of JP-II supposedly, according to the author (George Weigel), the implementation of Vatican II worked much better in Poland than in the rest of the West. I don't know if it is true. Now that Poland is "free" of communist domination, its society seemingly has embraced Western secularism wholeheartedly with birth control, abortion, divorce, materialism, etc.
Sam B writes:A traditionalist I know feels it accurate to describe the Pope as a centrist. His top priority is unity in the Catholic Church, and that calls for the appeasement of factions. Unfortunately, this is not a prudent strategy, and it has not done much good in the area of liturgy, this pontificate having presided over the worst liturgical deterioration in the Church's history. However, the Pope is in the proper end of the playing field in both the culture wars and in the matter of war and peace in the international arena (sans pro-U.N. content).
I look upon him too as a centrist. I see him as conservative theologically and some sort of progressive socially in the sense that he does not like capitalism or communism. JP-II does not believe either system is satisfying the need of individual persons. He has a point up to a point. His philosophical approach can be called "personalist" and is derived in some sense from the Philosophy of Phenomenology that was promulgated by Edmund Husserl and Husserl's most prominent student, St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein). Although the pope is essentially conservative, there are many in that Roman snake pit (i.e., the Curia) who are very liberal and who have vested interests in the current interpretation of Vatican II (the "spirit" of V2). Yet there are some RC bishops even some in AmChurch, that hotbed of "mush" in terms of collective leadership that are trying to teach the faith.
One problem with Vatican II is how it has been interpreted in the post-V2 scene. For example, the Dogmatic Constitution Sacrosanctum Consilium
called for changes in the liturgy. What the liberals who believe in the "spirit" of V2 don't tell you is that the Council Fathers called for the retention of Latin in the liturgy and the restoration of Gregorian Chant in the mass (to be sung by the laity!). Unfortunately, there are many instances within the Council's documents that the wording is so loose that you could drive a Mack Truck through it. Many people don't like the RCC either today or in the "old" days. But in pre-V2 days when something came out "in writing," at least you knew where the Church stood. You could like it or dislike it based upon something more concrete than the pablum that is often pumped out today. But this is just my personal opinion. Most fellow Catholics I encounter disagree with me. I'm a curmudgeonly throwback to them, a Medieval mastodon whose time is long past.
One board related comment--how the heck to you get the quote function to work easily when all you want to do is quote partially from another's post or take partial quotes from more than one post? I had to do the above very clumsily by cut and paste to my word processor, then paste back onto OC.net and then format with italics, etc.
Also the "Help" button doesn't work.