Author Topic: learning Old Church Slavonic  (Read 5116 times)

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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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learning Old Church Slavonic
« on: June 17, 2010, 01:55:32 AM »
I'd really like to teach myself the fundamentals of the Slavonic language. 

is it a totally impossible feat to try and teach myself this language?  I have nothing to do all summer, and I have a real knack for languages.  (I'm in honors French II and honors Italian I)

plus, I have a very close friend at church who says she can read half of the language, so she could be valuable up to a certain point. 

I am also going to get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276752721&sr=8-2

does anyone have any opinions about it?

thanks! or should I say Dzieki!

Offline stashko

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2010, 02:20:10 AM »

 As a serb When i go to liturgy I understand about 95 % of the liturgy, at the beginnig growing up  about 50 % mybe less because i never took the time to learn..What helps is when they have it written in the pew books  the liturgy in serbian and in Old Church slavonic  ... ;D
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 02:37:51 AM by stashko »
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Offline Salpy

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 02:49:27 AM »
If you really love languages and you have nothing else to do during the summer, I would say go for it.  At least you can learn the alphabet and some basic vocabulary and grammar.  If you have questions, it seems there are people online here who can help you.

Offline Salpy

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 02:51:43 AM »
Of course you also need to get out a bit and get some exercise.  It is summer, after all.  Having something to study is a good thing, but you also want to have some fun and sun.   :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2010, 07:36:26 AM »
I'd really like to teach myself the fundamentals of the Slavonic language. 

is it a totally impossible feat to try and teach myself this language?  I have nothing to do all summer, and I have a real knack for languages.  (I'm in honors French II and honors Italian I)

plus, I have a very close friend at church who says she can read half of the language, so she could be valuable up to a certain point. 

I am also going to get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276752721&sr=8-2

does anyone have any opinions about it?

thanks! or should I say Dzieki!
The book you are refering to is NOT Church Slavonic, but Old Church Slavonic. There's a difference. Lunt's grammar isn't really to learn to use the language or really to understand it, but to study its linguistics.

There is an English translation of a Russian grammar of CS from Jordanville, but I forget the author's name offhand.  Lord willing I'll come back and post.  The wikipedia articles are good on this, and there are links. The Ruthenian Metropolia has a website with some things, but I cannot remember the address offhand.  readersinstitute or some such thing.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2010, 12:23:59 AM »
I'd really like to teach myself the fundamentals of the Slavonic language. 

is it a totally impossible feat to try and teach myself this language?  I have nothing to do all summer, and I have a real knack for languages.  (I'm in honors French II and honors Italian I)

plus, I have a very close friend at church who says she can read half of the language, so she could be valuable up to a certain point. 

I am also going to get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276752721&sr=8-2

does anyone have any opinions about it?

thanks! or should I say Dzieki!
The book you are refering to is NOT Church Slavonic, but Old Church Slavonic. There's a difference. Lunt's grammar isn't really to learn to use the language or really to understand it, but to study its linguistics.

There is an English translation of a Russian grammar of CS from Jordanville, but I forget the author's name offhand.  Lord willing I'll come back and post.  The wikipedia articles are good on this, and there are links. The Ruthenian Metropolia has a website with some things, but I cannot remember the address offhand.  readersinstitute or some such thing.
what's the difference between Church Slavonic and Old Church Slavonic?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2010, 12:32:35 AM »
I'd really like to teach myself the fundamentals of the Slavonic language.  

is it a totally impossible feat to try and teach myself this language?  I have nothing to do all summer, and I have a real knack for languages.  (I'm in honors French II and honors Italian I)

plus, I have a very close friend at church who says she can read half of the language, so she could be valuable up to a certain point.  

I am also going to get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276752721&sr=8-2

does anyone have any opinions about it?

thanks! or should I say Dzieki!
The book you are refering to is NOT Church Slavonic, but Old Church Slavonic. There's a difference. Lunt's grammar isn't really to learn to use the language or really to understand it, but to study its linguistics.

There is an English translation of a Russian grammar of CS from Jordanville, but I forget the author's name offhand.  Lord willing I'll come back and post.  The wikipedia articles are good on this, and there are links. The Ruthenian Metropolia has a website with some things, but I cannot remember the address offhand.  readersinstitute or some such thing.
what's the difference between Church Slavonic and Old Church Slavonic?
Similar to the difference between Classical  and Ecclesiastical Latin.

btw:
http://www.halfwayproductions.com/slavonic/resources.html

The Grammar I was thinking of was Bishop Alypy's
http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Church-Slavonic-Language-Alypy/dp/0884650642
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 12:36:40 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2010, 01:37:18 AM »
I'd really like to teach myself the fundamentals of the Slavonic language.  

is it a totally impossible feat to try and teach myself this language?  I have nothing to do all summer, and I have a real knack for languages.  (I'm in honors French II and honors Italian I)

plus, I have a very close friend at church who says she can read half of the language, so she could be valuable up to a certain point.  

I am also going to get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276752721&sr=8-2

does anyone have any opinions about it?

thanks! or should I say Dzieki!
The book you are refering to is NOT Church Slavonic, but Old Church Slavonic. There's a difference. Lunt's grammar isn't really to learn to use the language or really to understand it, but to study its linguistics.

There is an English translation of a Russian grammar of CS from Jordanville, but I forget the author's name offhand.  Lord willing I'll come back and post.  The wikipedia articles are good on this, and there are links. The Ruthenian Metropolia has a website with some things, but I cannot remember the address offhand.  readersinstitute or some such thing.
what's the difference between Church Slavonic and Old Church Slavonic?
Similar to the difference between Classical  and Ecclesiastical Latin.

btw:
http://www.halfwayproductions.com/slavonic/resources.html

The Grammar I was thinking of was Bishop Alypy's
http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Church-Slavonic-Language-Alypy/dp/0884650642

I've adjusted my list, thanks :)

Offline Sloga

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2010, 02:16:52 AM »
As far as I know, most churches use mostly Church Slavonic during liturgy. Old Church Slavonic is actually not common. I suppose it counts on the Church though.
Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2010, 03:10:45 AM »
As far as I know, most churches use mostly Church Slavonic during liturgy. Old Church Slavonic is actually not common. I suppose it counts on the Church though.
No one uses Old Church Slavonic. It is of interest to linguists alone.  Old Church Slavonic is the language of SS Cyril and Methodius, Church Slavonic how modern people speak the language of SS. Cyril and  Methodius.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline stashko

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2010, 03:13:06 AM »
As far as I know, most churches use mostly Church Slavonic during liturgy. Old Church Slavonic is actually not common. I suppose it counts on the Church though.

Molim...
Jedno Pitanje....

Is it true the Holy Liturgy  in the Serbian Church is said now mostly in serbian and some church slavonic is used...Several people have told me this on this forum ..... ???
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Heorhij

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 11:39:41 AM »
As far as I know, most churches use mostly Church Slavonic during liturgy. Old Church Slavonic is actually not common. I suppose it counts on the Church though.
No one uses Old Church Slavonic. It is of interest to linguists alone.  Old Church Slavonic is the language of SS Cyril and Methodius, Church Slavonic how modern people speak the language of SS. Cyril and  Methodius.

No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin. Except Latin used to be "lingua franca" of educated Europeans in the 5th-19th centuries, and the versions of Slavonic were always used only in some Slavic churches during liturgy - hardly as a vernacular. Today, Slavonic is NOT a vernacular language of ANY modern Slavic nation. Why do they want to keep this dead language is a complete mystery to me. 1 Cor. 14:9-20 says it all...
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Offline Orest

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 11:59:56 AM »
Quote
I am also going to get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276752721&sr=8-2

Lunt's book is the standard textbook used in university courses to teach Old Church Slavonic.  It is the one I used when taking the course.  Check & see if your local univerristy offers the course.

There is no language called "Slavonic".  The liturgical language is  Church Slavonic.  If you can afford to buy the Lunt book then buy it.  It is useful because it explains the grammar from the point of view of someone who is not a native speaker of any Slavic language such as Russian or Serbian.  I used to have a little book on Church Slavonic in English that I bought or ordered from the Holy Trinity Monastery (ROCOR) in Jordanville.  It assumes the speaker the students knows Russian.  And I noticed the difference right away between it and the Lunt book right away.  I am the type of person who likes to know the reason why something happens and why this developed so I like Lunt.  If you like having thinks like the dative absolute case explainted then see Lunt.

I took the course many years ago and I remember the Lunt book was useful and also the vocabulary.  What I really enjoyed was reading all the lives of the saints in Church Slavonic.  The professor prepare a reader of xeroxes from various sources starting with the Gospel of John, the first work to be translated into Church Slavonic.  In addition to the lives of saints, we also had readings from The Primary Chronicle and other historical chronicles.

I enjoyed it but it was really, really hard work. I cannot stress that enough.  Someone I knew years ago was taking a graduate degree in Meieval Studies and audited the Old Church Slavonic Course without knowing any Slavic language.  But he had many, many years of classical Greek and Latin, Old Norse and so undertood the grammar of a language with many cases.  Do you have this type of linguistic background?  If so that would help.

Offline Sloga

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2010, 03:09:47 PM »
As far as I know, most churches use mostly Church Slavonic during liturgy. Old Church Slavonic is actually not common. I suppose it counts on the Church though.

That is how I understand it to be. Some liturgies are conducted in the native language completely, but there are certain churches and special events where church slavonic is indeed thrown in.

I'm fairly confident that old slavonic can be compared to latin, but slavonic is alive and well within religious circles especially.
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Offline Sloga

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2010, 03:11:06 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.

Wikipedia of course ;)

maybe you meant to say Old Slavonic?
Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic

Offline Heorhij

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2010, 04:23:41 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?

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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2010, 07:46:09 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.

Wikipedia of course ;)

maybe you meant to say Old Slavonic?

He meant that no one uses it outside of the liturgy in common discourse.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2010, 07:48:07 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)
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Offline Sloga

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2010, 02:28:40 AM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language. Just like mistranslations in the bible from greek to latin to english, things are always best said in their original manner. It also helps with that whole traditionality of Orthodoxy, albeit small t. I see no harm in it.
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Offline Christianus

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2010, 02:59:03 AM »
I'd really like to teach myself the fundamentals of the Slavonic language.  

is it a totally impossible feat to try and teach myself this language?  I have nothing to do all summer, and I have a real knack for languages.  (I'm in honors French II and honors Italian I)

plus, I have a very close friend at church who says she can read half of the language, so she could be valuable up to a certain point.  

I am also going to get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276752721&sr=8-2

does anyone have any opinions about it?

thanks! or should I say Dzieki!
The book you are refering to is NOT Church Slavonic, but Old Church Slavonic. There's a difference. Lunt's grammar isn't really to learn to use the language or really to understand it, but to study its linguistics.

There is an English translation of a Russian grammar of CS from Jordanville, but I forget the author's name offhand.  Lord willing I'll come back and post.  The wikipedia articles are good on this, and there are links. The Ruthenian Metropolia has a website with some things, but I cannot remember the address offhand.  readersinstitute or some such thing.
what's the difference between Church Slavonic and Old Church Slavonic?
Similar to the difference between Classical  and Ecclesiastical Latin.

btw:
http://www.halfwayproductions.com/slavonic/resources.html

The Grammar I was thinking of was Bishop Alypy's
http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Church-Slavonic-Language-Alypy/dp/0884650642
Classical Latin syntax terrifies me:I could understand literally 100 percent of the words, but the syntax leaves me completely baffled ??? at what the sentence is trying to say! But vulgar/ecclesiastical syntax is way easier for me (and more similar to modern romance syntax) thank God. It's like talking to my long lost ancient roman forefathers in Latin,and I understand them.

Vulgar Latin compared to classical Latin pretty much is like modern English to Shakespearean English.
Eques for Caballus, astrum for Stella, os for bucca.
Classical Latin uses a lot of archaic words.... while vulgar Latin uses a lot of modern words that are still found in the modern romance languages.
Again what terrifies me the most about classical Latin is it's insanely difficult to understand syntax.
And this is coming from a guy who was raised speaking English, and Spanish, then later learned French,Italian, Latin, and also started learning Greek.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 03:00:27 AM by Christianus »

Offline Michał

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2010, 04:15:45 AM »
I'd really like to teach myself the fundamentals of the Slavonic language.

Do you know any other Slavic language?

Offline Michał

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2010, 04:19:37 AM »
Same reason . . . the Egyptians use Coptic. . .

To what extend do the Copts use Copitc nowadays? I thought they switched to Arabic.

Offline Michał

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2010, 04:45:28 AM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin. Except Latin used to be "lingua franca" of educated Europeans in the 5th-19th centuries, and the versions of Slavonic were always used only in some Slavic churches during liturgy - hardly as a vernacular.

It was the vernacular of the 9th-century Southern Slavs of the Thessaloniki region. And in that time, it was, as far as I know, pretty much understandable for all Slavic people.

Offline CRCulver

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2010, 09:47:02 AM »
I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language.

Goodness. You should really read St. Cyril's devastating rebuke of the Trilingual heretics. The gospel can be translated, and God can be glorified, in any language on Earth.

what's the difference between Church Slavonic and Old Church Slavonic?

Quite large, actually. Church Slavonic lacks the nasal vowels and most of the reduced vowels of Old Church Slavonic, the tense and aspect system has been restructured, and some consonants have been changed to fit the norms of local dialects.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 09:49:23 AM by CRCulver »

Offline Heorhij

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2010, 01:00:59 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

Exactly. Sheer prejudice and inferiority complex.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2010, 01:03:35 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language. Just like mistranslations in the bible from greek to latin to english, things are always best said in their original manner. It also helps with that whole traditionality of Orthodoxy, albeit small t. I see no harm in it.

I do. When I say "It is meet and right to glorify You, O Birth-Giver of God" in my native Ukrainian language, I feel every word. When I repeat it in this... whaddaya call it... "Old Church Slavonic" - it's gibberish, with no meaning.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2010, 01:15:44 PM »
Same reason . . . the Egyptians use Coptic. . .

To what extend do the Copts use Copitc nowadays? I thought they switched to Arabic.

No. Good portions are still in Coptic.  I remember being at a 5 hour DL deep in Upper Egypt, way in the countryside, where a considerable-IIRC most-was in Coptic (and by memory.  How much was understood is a different question).

There are families who try to revive it like Ben Yehuda did Hebrew, and it is used on big dedications, even by the government: I remember seeing the cornerstone on Abu Simbel's new location, with the inscription of dedication by Nasser in Arabic and Coptic (and I think English too).

It's use is comparable to the use of Hebrew by Jews outside of Palestine.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2010, 01:28:20 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language. Just like mistranslations in the bible from greek to latin to english, things are always best said in their original manner. It also helps with that whole traditionality of Orthodoxy, albeit small t. I see no harm in it.

Not if not a word is understood.  And even being "said in their orginal manner," not if the language has moved on: things in Ancient/Koine/Attic Greek or Church Slavonic do not always mean the same in their orginal wording to the Modern Greek or Russian.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2010, 09:04:53 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language. Just like mistranslations in the bible from greek to latin to english, things are always best said in their original manner. It also helps with that whole traditionality of Orthodoxy, albeit small t. I see no harm in it.

You can't even apply that principle to all of these languages. The Scriptures are liturgies were all originally in Koine Greek. The use of Coptic, Ge'ez, Syriac, Latin, Classical Armenian, etc. itself involves translation. And it's an indicator that there is a reason that the process should continue. If the Church did not believe in translation for the sake of the peoples' understanding, everything would still be in Koine Greek.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2010, 09:06:20 PM »
Same reason . . . the Egyptians use Coptic. . .

To what extend do the Copts use Copitc nowadays? I thought they switched to Arabic.

Only partially. Even in the SF Bay Area they continue to use about 40% Coptic, with another 40% being Arabic, and the last 20% being English. I would imagine in that more old world areas they would use even more Coptic.
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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2010, 09:19:28 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language. Just like mistranslations in the bible from greek to latin to english, things are always best said in their original manner. It also helps with that whole traditionality of Orthodoxy, albeit small t. I see no harm in it.

I do. When I say "It is meet and right to glorify You, O Birth-Giver of God" in my native Ukrainian language, I feel every word. When I repeat it in this... whaddaya call it... "Old Church Slavonic" - it's gibberish, with no meaning.

I don't know. English is my native language, yet when I hear the "Dostoyno Est" in Slavonic, it touches me exactly as keenly as it does in my native English-and I would say the difference between English and Church Slavonic is  FAR greater than CS and Ukrainian. Though I do not understand everything, it took minimal efforts to basically memorize the services to the point where everything is quite meaningful to me. When I was in Ukraine, many folks used to claim they couldn't understand a word of the CS, which always puzzled me, because I've never had much of a problem understanding the services.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 09:27:58 PM by Rosehip »
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Offline Michał

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2010, 04:08:11 AM »
English is my native language, yet when I hear the "Dostoyno Est" in Slavonic, it touches me exactly as keenly as it does in my native English. . .

My native language is Polish and I have the same feeling when I hear liturgical texts in CS. But I believe it's the matter of knowing some other Slavic language (not necessarily as one's first language).

Offline Heorhij

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2010, 04:36:59 PM »
I don't know. English is my native language, yet when I hear the "Dostoyno Est" in Slavonic, it touches me exactly as keenly as it does in my native English-and I would say the difference between English and Church Slavonic is  FAR greater than CS and Ukrainian. Though I do not understand everything, it took minimal efforts to basically memorize the services to the point where everything is quite meaningful to me. When I was in Ukraine, many folks used to claim they couldn't understand a word of the CS, which always puzzled me, because I've never had much of a problem understanding the services.

Rosehip, please forgive me if my tone was too rough and hurt your feelings. I know, people can, indeed, become quite emotional about a certain language of worship, and it begins to make sense to them even if it is not their native language. I know that you lived in Ukraine for a rather long time and that you have very positive feelings about the worship in Church Slavonic. But I am still wondering, why don't Russians accept, adopt prayers and liturgical exclamations in THEIR MODERN vernacular language? What on earth hinders this?
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Offline stashko

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2010, 04:51:41 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language. Just like mistranslations in the bible from greek to latin to english, things are always best said in their original manner. It also helps with that whole traditionality of Orthodoxy, albeit small t. I see no harm in it.

I do. When I say "It is meet and right to glorify You, O Birth-Giver of God" in my native Ukrainian language, I feel every word. When I repeat it in this... whaddaya call it... "Old Church Slavonic" - it's gibberish, with no meaning.

When i went to a ukrainian church it sounded jibberish to me ,if they used Church Slavonic it would of been better ,at least i would of been spiritually feed ,By understanding something ,in a language we should share in common in Holy Liturgy..... ;)
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Rosehip

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2010, 04:57:51 PM »
I don't know. English is my native language, yet when I hear the "Dostoyno Est" in Slavonic, it touches me exactly as keenly as it does in my native English-and I would say the difference between English and Church Slavonic is  FAR greater than CS and Ukrainian. Though I do not understand everything, it took minimal efforts to basically memorize the services to the point where everything is quite meaningful to me. When I was in Ukraine, many folks used to claim they couldn't understand a word of the CS, which always puzzled me, because I've never had much of a problem understanding the services.

Rosehip, please forgive me if my tone was too rough and hurt your feelings. I know, people can, indeed, become quite emotional about a certain language of worship, and it begins to make sense to them even if it is not their native language. I know that you lived in Ukraine for a rather long time and that you have very positive feelings about the worship in Church Slavonic. But I am still wondering, why don't Russians accept, adopt prayers and liturgical exclamations in THEIR MODERN vernacular language? What on earth hinders this?

Heorhij, NO, NO! you in no way hurt my feelings!!! My own feelings on this entire issue (not just language, but culture, nationalism, etc. are EXTREMELY ambivalent at the best of times-for instance, it is hard not to feel inferior and a foreigner in my own city of birth when everyone around me in church is Russian/Slavic-somehow, after awhile, it is depressing.). I understand your questions about why Russians do not adopt the modern language for their services- I just do not know the answer! Maybe they are more old-fashioned and opposed to change by nature, or something. Maybe they are like me, who would prefer, if services were in my native English, for example, that they were in the beautiful Elizabethan English rather than modern-day English. Call me out-dated, but it's what I'm used to, and what I find beautiful and flowing.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 04:59:37 PM by Rosehip »
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2010, 05:13:31 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language. Just like mistranslations in the bible from greek to latin to english, things are always best said in their original manner. It also helps with that whole traditionality of Orthodoxy, albeit small t. I see no harm in it.

I do. When I say "It is meet and right to glorify You, O Birth-Giver of God" in my native Ukrainian language, I feel every word. When I repeat it in this... whaddaya call it... "Old Church Slavonic" - it's gibberish, with no meaning.

When i went to a ukrainian church it sounded jibberish to me ,if they used Church Slavonic it would of been better ,at least i would of been spiritually feed ,By understanding something ,in a language we should share in common in Holy Liturgy..... ;)

Why should we share any language? Maybe, then, Americans and Brits and Germans should share some ancient Saxon dialect in their Orthodox prayers?
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Offline stashko

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2010, 05:42:37 PM »
Question  ??? Heorhij
If the Serbs,Ukrainians,Russians,Bulgarians,Macedonians,Belorussian,Polish Orthodox got together say in the near future, and Decided to hold a join Liturgical service, what Language would you suggest,since you seem to hate church slavonic .....Plus they can't use english because some or most of the clergy they don't Understand english or even Greek ...... ;D ;)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 05:56:07 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline mike

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2010, 05:49:11 PM »
Question  ???
If the Serbs,Ukrainians,Russians,Bulgarians,Macedonians,Belorussian,Polish Orthodox got together say in the near future, and Decided to hold a join Liturgical service, what Language would you suggest,since you seem to hate church slavonic .....Plus they can't use english because some of the clergy they don't Understand it...... ;D ;)

As it is normally done they would use the language of the host. The quests would say their parts in their languages. It works perfectly well.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2010, 08:15:26 AM »
Question  ??? Heorhij
If the Serbs,Ukrainians,Russians,Bulgarians,Macedonians,Belorussian,Polish Orthodox got together say in the near future, and Decided to hold a join Liturgical service, what Language would you suggest,since you seem to hate church slavonic .....Plus they can't use english because some or most of the clergy they don't Understand english or even Greek ...... ;D ;)

I don't hate it, I just think that it is silly to keep a dead language instead of praying in languages that are now alive. What Mike said above.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2010, 09:43:49 AM »
Question  ??? Heorhij
If the Serbs,Ukrainians,Russians,Bulgarians,Macedonians,Belorussian,Polish Orthodox got together say in the near future, and Decided to hold a join Liturgical service, what Language would you suggest,since you seem to hate church slavonic .....Plus they can't use english because some or most of the clergy they don't Understand english or even Greek ...... ;D ;)

I don't hate it, I just think that it is silly to keep a dead language instead of praying in languages that are now alive. What Mike said above.
Depends. In Arabic, one might say classical Arabic is dead, but it is understood from Morrocco to Iraq, whereas the spoken forms are unintelligible.
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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2010, 10:36:13 AM »

When i went to a ukrainian church it sounded jibberish to me ,if they used Church Slavonic it would of been better ,at least i would of been spiritually feed ,By understanding something ,in a language we should share in common in Holy Liturgy..... ;)

So, apparently liturgy is all about stashko and not about the scores of other people there who understood the Ukrainian being spoken.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 10:36:49 AM by Schultz »
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Offline stashko

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2010, 01:43:12 PM »

When i went to a ukrainian church it sounded jibberish to me ,if they used Church Slavonic it would of been better ,at least i would of been spiritually feed ,By understanding something ,in a language we should share in common in Holy Liturgy..... ;)

So, apparently liturgy is all about stashko and not about the scores of other people there who understood the Ukrainian being spoken.




No No!! It's Not About me ,Just a Common Liturgical Language That we  Slavic People  share, and its been used for centuries that's all... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline monkvasyl

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2010, 05:20:31 PM »
No one actually speaks ANY "Slavonic." It's a completely dead language, like Latin

Church Slavonic (also Church Slavic) is the liturgical language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Croatian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Ruthenian Catholic Church, Serbian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox and Slavic Greek Catholic Churches, as well as the liturgical language of Croatian and Czech Church Slavonic Roman Catholic traditions. It was also the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church in Wallachia and Moldavia  until the late 17th century.


What is the reason for this? Don't these countries have their own languages?



Same reason the Greeks use Koine in their liturgy, the Egyptians use Coptic, the Assyrians use Syriac, the Armenians use Classical Armenian, the Ethiopians use Ge'ez, the Tridentines use Latin, etc.

It's some sort of fixation on ancient languages as somehow more "holy".  ::)

I always find that phrases, stories, words even, one way or another lose meaning or preciseness once translated into another language. Just like mistranslations in the bible from greek to latin to english, things are always best said in their original manner. It also helps with that whole traditionality of Orthodoxy, albeit small t. I see no harm in it.

I do. When I say "It is meet and right to glorify You, O Birth-Giver of God" in my native Ukrainian language, I feel every word. When I repeat it in this... whaddaya call it... "Old Church Slavonic" - it's gibberish, with no meaning.

When i went to a ukrainian church it sounded jibberish to me ,if they used Church Slavonic it would of been better ,at least i would of been spiritually feed ,By understanding something ,in a language we should share in common in Holy Liturgy..... ;)

Years ago when I was attending an OCA parish, my non-Orthodox friend attended a weekday Liturgy with me.  The pastor had the attached priest serve the Liturgy, and that priest was more comfortable serving in Church Slavonic.  After the Liturgy our pastor came up to my friend and apologized for not having any English in the Liturgy.  My friend said that since he had attended many Liturgies in our parish language didn't matter because he knew what was going on.
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Offline stashko

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2010, 05:43:49 PM »
Fr..Blagoslovi....

Iv been to English Holy Liturgies ,to me it just doesn't sound right,Like something is Lacking, though I'm sure it's not. Because i speak Serbian ,just use to hearing Holy Liturgy in Serbian/and church Slavonic...Especially the Hymns they sound so beautiful..... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2010, 10:52:26 AM »
Quote
Quite large, actually. Church Slavonic lacks the nasal vowels and most of the reduced vowels of Old Church Slavonic, the tense and aspect system has been restructured, and some consonants have been changed to fit the norms of local dialects.

Just to clarify as someone who has studied Old Church Slavonic at University and used Lunt's text book:
The reason some may think Old Church Slavonic lacks vowels etc. is because originally the soft sign and hard sign were pronounced vowels.

Also for people who know Romance languages understanding Latin: modern Romance languages do not decline/ has cases for nouns as in Latin.  So vocabulary may sound familiar but the use of cases is confusing to those who do not know Latin grammar. 

Totally off topic but being Canadian and learning required French from public school when I was in Romania I notice simularity in vocabulary but the articles are attached the end of the noun not set before the beginning of a noun as in French.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2010, 11:45:11 AM »
Quote
Quite large, actually. Church Slavonic lacks the nasal vowels and most of the reduced vowels of Old Church Slavonic, the tense and aspect system has been restructured, and some consonants have been changed to fit the norms of local dialects.

Just to clarify as someone who has studied Old Church Slavonic at University and used Lunt's text book:
The reason some may think Old Church Slavonic lacks vowels etc. is because originally the soft sign and hard sign were pronounced vowels.

Also for people who know Romance languages understanding Latin: modern Romance languages do not decline/ has cases for nouns as in Latin.

Romanian does. It's also the only Romance language that has a neuter gender

Quote
 So vocabulary may sound familiar but the use of cases is confusing to those who do not know Latin grammar.  

Totally off topic but being Canadian and learning required French from public school when I was in Romania I notice simularity in vocabulary but the articles are attached the end of the noun not set before the beginning of a noun as in French.
Yes, Romanian differs from the other Romance languages, but resembles the Slavic languages in the Balkans with a definite article, in this.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 11:47:30 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Orest

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2010, 02:17:45 PM »
Quote
Yes, Romanian differs from the other Romance languages, but resembles the Slavic languages in the Balkans with a definite article, in this.

Do you mean modern Bulgarian and Macedonian by "the Slavic languages in the Balkans with a definite article"?  Or are there other South Slavic Balkan languages with a definite article?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 02:19:02 PM by Orest »

Offline augustin717

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2010, 02:23:49 PM »
It's a feature of the so-called "balkansprachbund", shared by Bulgarian, Romanian and Albanian. Other features are shared with Greek, as well.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2010, 02:33:22 PM »
Quote
Yes, Romanian differs from the other Romance languages, but resembles the Slavic languages in the Balkans with a definite article, in this.

Do you mean modern Bulgarian and Macedonian by "the Slavic languages in the Balkans with a definite article"?  Or are there other South Slavic Balkan languages with a definite article?
No, they're the only ones as far as I know period in the Slavic languages. As Augustine said, its the sprachbund. Another feature, one from phonetics, is that Romanian, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Albanian have a stressed schwa ə, something unusual among languages.
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2010, 09:58:08 PM »
No, they're the only ones as far as I know period in the Slavic languages. As Augustine said, its the sprachbund. Another feature, one from phonetics, is that Romanian, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Albanian have a stressed schwa ə, something unusual among languages.

A stressed vowel ə is not at all unusual among languages. I can name half a dozen languages off the top of my head that have it (English, Mari, Chuvash, Tatar, Kazakh and Nenets)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 09:59:38 PM by CRCulver »

Offline Vladik

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Re: learning Old Church Slavonic
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2010, 01:26:26 PM »
I'd really like to teach myself the fundamentals of the Slavonic language. 

is it a totally impossible feat to try and teach myself this language?  I have nothing to do all summer, and I have a real knack for languages.  (I'm in honors French II and honors Italian I)

plus, I have a very close friend at church who says she can read half of the language, so she could be valuable up to a certain point. 

I am also going to get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276752721&sr=8-2

does anyone have any opinions about it?

thanks! or should I say Dzieki!

Here you can find some self-study textbooks of Church Slavonic:
http://azbyka.ru/tserkov/tserkovno-slavyanskiy/uchebnye_posobiya/index.shtml     
(in Russian)