OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 16, 2014, 03:51:38 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags CHAT Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Lady of Fatima and the Consecration of Russia.  (Read 4791 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
David Carroll
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 110


Holy Ephraim, pray for us!


« on: June 16, 2010, 07:25:43 PM »

I never really knew much about the appearance of the Blessed Virgin at Fatima.  That's why I did a little reading up on it recently.  The story left me spiritually confused, though.

The Holy Mother of God appeared to young sheep-herding children in Portugal in 1917.  Part of her purpose (so goes the story) was to warn the world of the coming tribulations if Russia continued in its error of Bolshevism and its spread to other nations of the world.  She asked that the Roman Catholic Church, via her Pope and bishops, "consecrate" the nation of Russia to the Blessed Virgin's "Immaculate Heart", and then Russia and the rest of the world would be saved from further of such tribulations.

Apparently, this consecration was not done until 1982 by Pope John Paul II.  Seven or eight years afterward, Communism collapsed in Russia.

What troubles me is this: assuming the visions of the Mother of God were real and not a hoax, hallucination, or - heaven forbid - a demonic delusion, what does this say?  Is the Orthodox Church already established in Russia not good enough for the Blessed Virgin?  Is She implying that the Roman Catholic Church is the "true" Church?

Now I am not a universalist or a relativist, so I do believe that there is one True Church.  My heart and much research has convinced me that this True Church happens to be the EO Church.  But now I'm not so sure.

Could someone please de-confuse me?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 07:27:11 PM by David Carroll » Logged

Pray that God would deliver me from hatred and pride.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 08:03:08 PM »

It's Demonic Apparition ,Pay No Attention to it..... Grin police
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
David Carroll
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 110


Holy Ephraim, pray for us!


« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 08:14:30 PM »

But wouldn't you say that it's a little premature and presumptuous to automatically write it off as "demonic"?   After all, Our Lord, after hearing the scribes ascribe (there's an alliteration for ya  Kiss) His ability to cast out demons to Beelzebub, said that blaspheming the Holy Spirit (i.e. counting actual works of God as demonic or pointless) is unpardonable.

Sorry.  I hope that didn't sound like I was attacking you (I know how in writing over the internet, something of the ever-important intonation of the voice is lost in the process).
Logged

Pray that God would deliver me from hatred and pride.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 08:25:59 PM »

Theres posts posted about this ,,Do a search ,Hopefully you will find the posts... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,604



« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 09:55:49 PM »

But wouldn't you say that it's a little premature and presumptuous to automatically write it off as "demonic"?  

You said:
Quote
The story left me spiritually confused, though

Is God a God of confusion?

Quote
Is She implying that the Roman Catholic Church is the "true" Church?

Now I am not a universalist or a relativist, so I do believe that there is one True Church.  My heart and much research has convinced me that this True Church happens to be the EO Church.  But now I'm not so sure.

You think the Theotokos would lead you away from her Son's One True Church?  Only an evil generation seeks a sign.  Test all spirits.


Quote
After all, Our Lord, after hearing the scribes ascribe (there's an alliteration for ya  Kiss) His ability to cast out demons to Beelzebub, said that blaspheming the Holy Spirit (i.e. counting actual works of God as demonic or pointless) is unpardonable.

Sorry.  I hope that didn't sound like I was attacking you (I know how in writing over the internet, something of the ever-important intonation of the voice is lost in the process).

It teaches heresy (the Immaculate Conception) and denies the Orthodox Church.  The Spirit does neither.

What makes you think it was real? As you say "so the story goes..."
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 09:56:28 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
David Carroll
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 110


Holy Ephraim, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 11:01:59 PM »

What seems to make it real, in my opinion, is that the apparition is telling people to turn from sin.  Would a demon do that kind of thing?  Plus, I don't think the apparition expressly vocalized any heresies during this vision.  The fact that She referred to Her own heart as "immaculate" doesn't necessarily mean that she was using that word in the same sense as it does in the phrase "Immaculate Conception."

Also: it's been quite some time since I've read the book, but I believe Father Pavel Florensky in The Pillar and Ground of the Truth stated that many Russian Orthodox Christians believe in something bordering on the Immaculate Conception.

At any rate, would a demon really strengthen the faith of thousands (or perhaps millions) just to get people to ascribe to a minor heresy?
Logged

Pray that God would deliver me from hatred and pride.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,604



« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 11:37:33 PM »

What seems to make it real, in my opinion, is that the apparition is telling people to turn from sin.  Would a demon do that kind of thing? 

Even Satan can change himself into an angel of light.  And he is quite willing to loose a string of battles to win the war.

al-Qaidah tells us not to sin too.

Quote
Plus, I don't think the apparition expressly vocalized any heresies during this vision.  The fact that She referred to Her own heart as "immaculate" doesn't necessarily mean that she was using that word in the same sense as it does in the phrase "Immaculate Conception."

Also: it's been quite some time since I've read the book, but I believe Father Pavel Florensky in The Pillar and Ground of the Truth stated that many Russian Orthodox Christians believe in something bordering on the Immaculate Conception.
Then this "apparition" would confirm them in their heresy.

Quote
At any rate, would a demon really strengthen the faith of thousands (or perhaps millions) just to get people to ascribe to a minor heresy?
a small thing is not a small thing, if it leads to something great. And the CULT of Fatima is responsible for lots of attacks on the Orthdoox Church, feeding the Mariolatry of such things as the "Coredemptrix," and destabilized the faith of thousands (perhaps millions) of formerly Faithful Orthodox.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

As Stashko Brat says, there are many threads on this.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 12:12:57 PM »

But wouldn't you say that it's a little premature and presumptuous to automatically write it off as "demonic"?  

You said:
Quote
The story left me spiritually confused, though

Is God a God of confusion?

Quote
Is She implying that the Roman Catholic Church is the "true" Church?

Now I am not a universalist or a relativist, so I do believe that there is one True Church.  My heart and much research has convinced me that this True Church happens to be the EO Church.  But now I'm not so sure.

You think the Theotokos would lead you away from her Son's One True Church?  Only an evil generation seeks a sign.  Test all spirits.


Quote
After all, Our Lord, after hearing the scribes ascribe (there's an alliteration for ya  Kiss) His ability to cast out demons to Beelzebub, said that blaspheming the Holy Spirit (i.e. counting actual works of God as demonic or pointless) is unpardonable.

Sorry.  I hope that didn't sound like I was attacking you (I know how in writing over the internet, something of the ever-important intonation of the voice is lost in the process).

It teaches heresy (the Immaculate Conception) and denies the Orthodox Church.  The Spirit does neither.

What makes you think it was real? As you say "so the story goes..."
This all depends upon one's perspective. If one believes the Catholic Church is the true Church, then none of what you say holds.
Objectively, there is one Church. Until the time in which God directly tells us, it is going to be Catholic opinion vs. Orthodox opinion, etc.
Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 12:18:28 PM »


 Then this "apparition" would confirm them in their heresy.

Assuming that it is heresy. If, for argument's sake, it is not, then we have another story altogether.

It all depends upon which Church is the true Church.

Of course you believe the Orthodox to be the true Church as I believe the Catholic Church to be the true Church.

We certainly can test all spirits. And in doing so, we are still at the same point, but few are willing to see or admit the reality of that. We live based on what we believe, but we still do not definitively know. That will only come from a direct revelation from God, revealing one as true and the other as false
(or the middle ground that we really are one church but have separated ourselves based on the blindness of each side's pride and lack of charity in seeing the other).

But what do I know. This is an Orthodox board, so of course, I must be the heretic since I am Catholic. It's the same thing over on CAF too, except the opposite.


 
Logged
tuesdayschild
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 938



« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 12:40:44 PM »

This is an Orthodox board, so of course, I must be the heretic since I am Catholic. It's the same thing over on CAF too, except the opposite.

I thought that Catholics considered Orthodox to be schismatics, not heretics.  Is this incorrect?
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 01:23:19 PM »

feeding the Mariolatry of such things as the "Coredemptrix,"

Can you please refreain from calling the concept of "Coredemptrix" a form of Mariolatry since it is clear that you have no idea what the doctrine actually teaches. Further, its not even a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
David Carroll
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 110


Holy Ephraim, pray for us!


« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 01:57:26 PM »

I like to believe that I am not blinded by pride.  If someone were to convince me that the RC Church is the True Church, then I'd be more than happy to jump into their fold.

Logged

Pray that God would deliver me from hatred and pride.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2010, 02:15:37 PM »

If someone, having come to the Orthodox Church, then becomes convinced of some other teaching and leaves, he is far more likely to embrace something different again. Faith should not be based on visions, spiritual experiences, or convincing arguments. It should be deeper and stronger than that. Orthodox revelation comes from the Holy Apostles, through the Holy Fathers. It is not updated by visions or changes in philosophy or because of need or because of some kind of doctrinal development. To leave this faith for another because of some vision or argument is a sign of instability. The deception is, however, that one thinks one has really arrived at something, when, in reality, one is just being driven by the wind. What faith existed if a vision or argument carries you away?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
David Carroll
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 110


Holy Ephraim, pray for us!


« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2010, 02:35:12 PM »

I don't have that sort of Kierkegaardian faith where I could just totally commit to something even if I didn't have all the evidence.  If anything, I think that would be intellectually irresponsible.  After all, one could just as easily submit to Islam without seeking signs, arguments, etc.  It is not a light thing to risk eternal damnation on an arbitrary leap of faith.

At any rate, I'm now pretty convinced of the Truth of the EO Church - having vacillated before between the RC Church and the OO Church.

The only way to reconcile the apparent antitheses adhering to the visions of the Lady of Fatima, to me, is to assume that this vision was indeed real and that the Holy Mother of God, having seen the Russian Orthodox Church was ineffectual around that time, thought that the best hope would be to - since the atheist Russians were bent on ignoring their native Church - have the RC Church try to step in and bring healing.  Nevertheless, the Theotokos, even after condescending to the weakness of people's flesh and faith by temporarily endorsing the RC Church knows that the EO Church is really the True Church.

(But then, of course, an RC would vocalize the inverse of that entire situation in discussing Marian appearances in the Eastern Churches.)
Logged

Pray that God would deliver me from hatred and pride.
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2010, 02:48:38 PM »

I don't really have a position either way on Fatima.

But the message of Fatima is about prayer, fasting, penance, and conversion.
If Fatima is of demonic origin, it certainly is odd that satan is trying to convince people to come over to his side by praying the rosary, fasting, and doing works of charity.

Now, that message doesn't automatically guarantee that the vision is supernatural. But the Father of Lies is incapable of telling people to become more devoted to Jesus through prayer, fasting, penance, etc.

On to the vision and the Immaculate Conception (which was mentioned earlier). With the hundreds of documentsed healings that have occured at Lourdes, not to mention the fact of the conversions of people who have gone there (one of which i am personally aware of, of a family belonging to the same parish as me who received a miracle healing), if these visions are just ploy's of satan, then he's not doing a very good job since many people who go to these places experience conversions that lead them to a devotion to Jesus in their life.

Again, I'm not saying that authenticates them. But it doesn't really lend creedence that it is teh deceiver leaving people astray.

The "proof" as they say is in the numbers of conversions. There's no doubting the fact of that.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 02:55:18 PM »

This is an Orthodox board, so of course, I must be the heretic since I am Catholic. It's the same thing over on CAF too, except the opposite.

I thought that Catholics considered Orthodox to be schismatics, not heretics.  Is this incorrect?
Depends on who you ask. I don't want to say more because I would rather not invoke anyone's wrath.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
David Carroll
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 110


Holy Ephraim, pray for us!


« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2010, 03:03:11 PM »

Depends on who you ask. I don't want to say more because I would rather not invoke anyone's wrath.

Invoke people's wrath.  Bono says "Co-exist".  But then that means "exist!"
Logged

Pray that God would deliver me from hatred and pride.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 03:39:55 PM »

Depends on who you ask. I don't want to say more because I would rather not invoke anyone's wrath.

Invoke people's wrath.  Bono says "Co-exist".  But then that means "exist!"

Well, please understand that I say this with absolute respect for the East but I think that there are areas in which the Eastern Church has become heretical or at least some Eastern Orthodox clergy and theologians espouse some heretical ideas. That being said, I am not saying this to spark a debate with EOs on these particular issues. Only to point that some Catholics see EOs as schismatics only and some see them as both schismatic and heretical.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,486



WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 03:51:42 PM »

The Immaculate Heart devotion is not related to the heresy of the Immaculate Conception.

from Wikipedia:
Quote
The Immaculate Heart of Mary originally The Sacred Heart of Mary is a devotional name used to refer to the interior life of Mary, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for her God, her maternal love for her Son, Jesus, and her compassionate love for all people. The consideration of Mary's interior life and the beauties of her soul, without any thought of her physical heart, does not constitute the traditional devotion; still less does it consist in the consideration of the Heart of Mary merely as a part of her virginal body. In 1855 the Mass of the Most Pure Heart formally became a part of Catholic practice. The two elements are essential to the devotion, just as, according to Roman Catholic theology, soul and body are necessary to the constitution of man.

There is a lot of heretical problems related to the devotions to the Heart of Mary and the Heart of Jesus which are not different in nature to Western heresies in general, that is, the derail of the devotional aspect of human beings from the whole to the part (from katta holos to katta meros).

The core of the apparition's message is *not* a generic charity, but a call to a devotion to her "immaculate heart". It is a clear call to deviate from the "straight glorification" of the Christian faith, deviating from God His proper glorification and from the Holy Virgin herself her proper veneration. It is the religious version of that problem of loving more a quality of a person than the person herself, deviating love for real people to abstractions.

The healings and conversions, as said, are not a final proof. Many people are probably just converting from atheism or other religions into a closer relationship wit God, which is good, but not a few are really putting the "Heart of Mary" in the center of their lives which is very problematic for their salvation to say the least.
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,486



WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2010, 04:00:55 PM »

Depends on who you ask. I don't want to say more because I would rather not invoke anyone's wrath.

Invoke people's wrath.  Bono says "Co-exist".  But then that means "exist!"

Well, please understand that I say this with absolute respect for the East but I think that there are areas in which the Eastern Church has become heretical or at least some Eastern Orthodox clergy and theologians espouse some heretical ideas. That being said, I am not saying this to spark a debate with EOs on these particular issues. Only to point that some Catholics see EOs as schismatics only and some see them as both schismatic and heretical.

I wish we could depower the word "heretical". It's very true that Romans, Protestants and Orthodox see each other as deviating, sometimes blasphemously, from the Faith. The worst of all, of course, are those ecumenists who see everybody in these three groups as deviating from Love for believing what Romans, Protestant and Orthodox believe. Not to be ecumenist is the only heresy they know, but I digress.

We think each other is wrong. I much rather enjoy talking, in a civilized way, to Romans and Protestants who think I am a heretic (as long as they don't want to burn me at a stake of course : ) ) than having to deal with sugarcoated words that try to hide visceral differences or to relativize defining dogmas.

I want union as conversion. That is what the famous "sacerdotal passage" in John is talking about. And conversion can only happen if the person recognizes to be in mistake. The very assumption that all mistakes are just misunderstandings is a stumbling block for any real conversion.

We should all make some t-shirts written "<---I'm with heretic--->" and go to a soccer (or baseball in the US Smiley ) game together. That's interreligious dialogue to me. Smiley
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 04:07:16 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2010, 04:08:22 PM »

Depends on who you ask. I don't want to say more because I would rather not invoke anyone's wrath.

Invoke people's wrath.  Bono says "Co-exist".  But then that means "exist!"

Well, please understand that I say this with absolute respect for the East but I think that there are areas in which the Eastern Church has become heretical or at least some Eastern Orthodox clergy and theologians espouse some heretical ideas. That being said, I am not saying this to spark a debate with EOs on these particular issues. Only to point that some Catholics see EOs as schismatics only and some see them as both schismatic and heretical.

I wish we could depower the word "heretical". It's very true that Romans, Protestants and Orthodox see each other as deviating, sometimes blasphemously, from the Faith. The worse of all, of course, are those ecumenists who see everybody in these three groups as deviating from Love for believing what Romans, Protestant and Orthodox believe. Not to be ecumenist is the only heresy they know, but I digress.

We think each other is wrong. I much rather enjoy talking, in a civilized way, to Romans and Protestants who think I am a heretic (as long as they don't want to burn me at a stake of course : ) ) than having to deal with sugarcoated words that try to hide visceral differences or to relativize defining dogmas.

I want union as conversion. That is what the famous "sacerdotal passage" in John is talking about. And conversion can only happen if the person recognizes to be in mistake. The very assumption that all mistakes are just misunderstandings is a stumbling block for any real conversion.

We should all make some t-shirts written "<---I'm with heretic--->" and go to a soccer (or baseball in the US Smiley ) game together. That's interreligious dialogue to me. Smiley

I love your approach man. I would like to emphasis that I don't believe that an EO becoming a Catholic is conversion in the true sense of the word. I see it more as clearing up some errors. A muslim becoming a Catholic, now that is conversion.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 06:16:23 PM »


Pulled from this Link..... Grin As I suspected Goddess Worship....  Grin

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx




The Return of the Goddess
Why is it always the Mother of God who supposedly appears in these visions? Was Canon John of Satge, an Evangelical Anglican, right when he said that the Marian cult (here Orthodox would draw a clear distinction between Mariolatry and the Orthodox veneration of the Mother of God) had its roots in an older paganism, in the recurring tendency of mankind to worship a mother-goddess?

Gnosticism is clearly linked with the present clamour for the ordination of women and the use of inclusive language for God, but the ancient pagan goddess seems more closely linked to the Marian apparitions. Gnostic heretics allowed women to minister equally with men as priests and bishops, and adopted some Christian beliefs, distorting them unmercifully to fit them into the Gnostic religious / philosophical system, but their interest lay not with Mary, the human Mother of God, but with God "the Mother," that is, the Holy Spirit. Some Gnostics developed an immortal Sophia figure, and at times saw the Virgin Mary as one of her incarnations, but there seems nothing that would lead to a Christian cult of Mary such as prevailed in the Roman Church.

The one Great All-Mother of the pagans showed herself in various forms of nature on earth and in the sky. Having no human shape, she was worshipped at sacred sites and high places marked with pillars. Later she was represented in human form, attended by doves and snakes, symbolizing her power in the air and on earth. Pre-eminently she was the Bringer and Sustainer of life, the bearer of fertility to man and nature, and, in her later role as Muse, the inspiration that gave birth to music, art and poetry.

As societies merged and influenced each other, the Goddess became fragmented and identified with local deities, taking on their characteristics. As Neith, brought from Libya to Egypt, she was a cosmic virgin-mother, who "gave birth to the Sun, and became a mother when none else had yet borne children." As Isis, she tells a supplicant that in many different places, she, the one, is "worshipped in many aspects, known by many names"—Mother of gods, Artemis, Aphrodite, Mother of the Corn, Persephone the Maiden par excellence. Likewise the Lady of the apparitions is venerated in many localities under a variety of names and aspects—Our Lady of the Rosary, Virgin of the Poor, Mother of Consolation, The Immaculate Conception, and so on.

A Babylonian hymn to Ishtar hails her as Queen of all, who in her pity makes the dead live, heals the sick and saves the afflicted, yet nevertheless has a "dark" side, and in the Gilgamesh epic decides capriciously on the destruction of mankind. The nineteenth century Roman Catholic writer, Robert Hugh Benson, discerned this dark aspect of the Lady of Lourdes. He wrote,
Mary, then, has appeared to me in a new light since I have visited Lourdes. I shall in [the] future not only hate to offend her, but fear also. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of that Mother who allows the broken sufferer to crawl across France to her feet and then to crawl back again. She is one of the Maries of Chartes that reveals herself here, dark, mighty, dominant and all but inexorable: not the Mary of an ecclesiastical shop who dwells amid tinsel and tuberoses.

Doubtless men thought like this of the Magna Mater long ago, or of Artemis, benign enough at Athens, but dark and terrible as Diana of Ephesus. Geoffrey Ashe (Miracles, 1978) commenting on the "miracle of the sun" supposedly performed by the Lady of Fatima wrote, "Even to accept it as Mary's doing is surely to admit that she has an alarming and inscrutable aspect, which does not sit well with Christian ideas of her."

If the Goddess does play a part in the Marian visions, France would seem to provide a naturally fertile ground for them, since there, on the whole, the Goddess seems to have been benign and helpful. There had been a temple of Isis at Soissons, a strong mother cult in the region of Treves, the cult of the Earth Mother prevailed in the Seine, Oise and Tarn regions, and there were many shrines to minor goddesses, who protected springs. There were also enchanting nymphs who protected springs, rocks and water, and a multitude of "white ladies," descendents of the Earth Mother.

In Rome, Cybele, the Great Mother of the gods, a divinity imported from Asia Minor was credited with the defeat of Hannibal and developed a lasting following. A special feature of the statues of Cybele was that they were crowned and carried from place to place. Similarly, a further development of the apparitions has been the solemn crowning of Marian statues and their procession, especially at Fatima, from place to place. In 1864, the Garaison Virgin had been crowned with Papal permission (Pius IX), followed by La Salette (Leo XIII) and Fatima (Pius XII). In 1954, Our Lady of Knock, Queen of Ireland, was crowned. Earlier, in 1732, by permission of Clement XII, the Virgin of Svata Hora in Slovakia was crowned with the diadem of the Holy Roman Emperor. That the Mother of God, representing redeemed humanity, is glorified and reigns with Christ is beyond doubt, but this earthly crowning tends to set her apart from us and to obscure the fact that her heavenly crown is not the "diadem," the royal emblem of monarchy, but the stephanos, the crown of laurels given to those who are victorious in the battle of life, the reward for faithfully striving, attained through suffering and purification, the crown with which all Christians hope and pray to be crowned.

Universally worshipped, the Goddess supplied a deep need in the human psyche for the Eternal Feminine. Sometimes she acted in her own right as sole superior deity, sometimes as co-equal partner to a male divinity, and sometimes in a Goddess-Spouse / Son relationship. Only among the Hebrews, led by their fiercely monotheistic and uncompromising prophets, was there no place for the Goddess, and even the Hebrews, surrounded as they were by polytheistic societies, sometimes relapsed into pagan worship. With the Hebrews, the serpents of the Goddess, benign symbols of healing and wisdom, were reduced to an evil tempter, and Eve, the mother of all the living, became a Pandora figure unleashing sin and death on mankind. The dove, the other attendant of the Goddess, was not demoted, most likely because of its connection with Noah and the Ark. The Lady of Zeitoun has her attendant "doves," and the serpent appears, in the accepted Judaeo-Christian form as the symbol of evil, beneath the feet of the Lady of the Miraculous Medal, while the vision of Medjugorje is engaged in a battle to crush the serpent's head.

If the assumption of a Goddess connection with the apparitions is correct, how did she gain a foothold in the Latin Church and remain undetected?

Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2010, 07:31:46 PM »

I don't have that sort of Kierkegaardian faith where I could just totally commit to something even if I didn't have all the evidence.  If anything, I think that would be intellectually irresponsible.  After all, one could just as easily submit to Islam without seeking signs, arguments, etc.  It is not a light thing to risk eternal damnation on an arbitrary leap of faith.

At any rate, I'm now pretty convinced of the Truth of the EO Church - having vacillated before between the RC Church and the OO Church.

The only way to reconcile the apparent antitheses adhering to the visions of the Lady of Fatima, to me, is to assume that this vision was indeed real and that the Holy Mother of God, having seen the Russian Orthodox Church was ineffectual around that time, thought that the best hope would be to - since the atheist Russians were bent on ignoring their native Church - have the RC Church try to step in and bring healing.  Nevertheless, the Theotokos, even after condescending to the weakness of people's flesh and faith by temporarily endorsing the RC Church knows that the EO Church is really the True Church.

(But then, of course, an RC would vocalize the inverse of that entire situation in discussing Marian appearances in the Eastern Churches.)

Dear David,

Do you think it might be possible for the Mother of God to appear and ask for such a consecration from the Catholic Church in order to help to heal the heart of Catholics who might be poisoned against Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy faithful and predominantly Orthodox countries?   I know my charity gets tested by spending so much of my time around Orthodox believers.  What about those who would never even be tempted to try to communicate with people who distort their faith and reject it as well.  It seems to me that the Mother of God would be saying something more about Catholic charity and interest than any statement about doctrinal truth or fiction.

I don't see where her making that request is necessarily any kind of litmus test for any "true" Church at all.

M.
Logged

David Carroll
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 110


Holy Ephraim, pray for us!


« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2010, 08:19:09 PM »

Thank you, Elijahmaria!  I was actually hoping that I would NOT be forced into looking at it as some sort of litmus test of the True Church.  I want very badly to believe that God and His heavenly Saints overlook the fact that one of these apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or RC) has strayed a little from the other and gives more grace in spite of it.

Someone mentioned earlier that God is not a god of confusion.  But my heart seems much more tested and confused to believe that all these Marian apparitions are demonic in origin than to believe that grace is still bestowed on the straying (whichever you believe that particular one might be) church in spite of itself.

And also, on linking "Mariolatry" with goddess-cults: To that, I would present the same argument that I do to Protestants who have problems with Theotokos-veneration:  Following that same line of reasoning, we could say that the tale of Christ and His Resurrection is merely borrowed from similar stories of Death and Resurrection and communing of the flesh of ancient deities like Adonis or Dionysus.  But both lines of reasoning stem from the same fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc. ("These stories existed before those stories therefore those stories came FROM these stories.")

That web-site (orthodoxinfo) is the most unabashedly crypto-Protestant web-site I've ever seen.

And the UFO's hovering about Marian apparitions doesn't necessarily prove that those apparitions are demonic.  Perhaps the Marian apparition itself is real and yet demons decided to manifest themselves at the same time and near the same place just to confuse people.
Logged

Pray that God would deliver me from hatred and pride.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,094


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2010, 08:33:20 PM »

Quote
Perhaps the Marian apparition itself is real and yet demons decided to manifest themselves at the same time and near the same place just to confuse people.

Demons manifesting themselves around the Mother of God? Interesting idea.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 08:35:02 PM by LBK » Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2010, 09:01:16 PM »

Conn....From above Post.... Roll Eyes


The Apostolic missionaries moved out from a strictly monotheistic background to encounter societies steeped in a world of gods and semi-divine human beings. Doubtless for many converts to Christianity, the old ways of thinking could not have been easily shed, even after Baptism.

From the Church Father, Epiphanius, we learn of a sect, composed mainly of women, nicknamed the Collyridians. Originating in Thrace, it had extended to Upper Scythia (roughly to the west and north of the Black Sea) and into Arabia by the fourth century. It seems to have been inspired by the Gospel events, combined with an Elias-type legend of Mary's purity and "non-death." St Epiphanius states that the "priestesses of Mary" worshipped her as a goddess in her own right, the Queen of Heaven, with rituals far older than Christianity, and "adorn a chair or square throne, spread a cloth over it, and at a certain solemn time, place bread on it and offer it in the name of Mary." Recalling the Jews, condemned by the Prophet Jeremias, who made similar offerings to the "Queen of Heaven"—in their case, Astarte—he warns against the worship of the Virgin as strongly as he had also warned against a lack of proper respect for her. This is the seventy-ninth heresy in a long list, challenged by Epiphanius, yet somehow it seems more like a different religion than a Christian deviation the ancient pagan religion of the Goddess, under her new manifestation: "Mary." While it is unlikely that the Collyridians as such influenced the Church, this shows how such distortions of true belief can arise and it might be that a more orthodox version of some of their ideas might well have been congenial to some new converts from a pagan background, lying dormant until the right combination of circumstances caused them to take root. While working on this study of the apparitions, I began to feel what seemed to be the presence of another religion, running side by side with Christianity; so I was interested to discover that the nineteenth century French novelist Emile Zola had experienced a similar feeling, and believed he perceived "almost a new religion" at Lourdes.

Within the Church, Christ [is] the Second Adam, but once the Virgin had been seen in a certain sense as the Second Eve (without, of course, the slightest surrender to paganism) this was likely to have recalled to the spiritually weak the Goddess-Son / Spouse relationship; while the title Theotokos, although solely concerned with teaching that Christ was God, might surely have evoked the memory of Cybele, Great Mother of the gods, except that this was in fact an even greater title, the Mother of God. As paganism crumbled and local deities were dethroned, it was more often than not the Mother of God who was put in their place as patroness of healing springs and holy mountains, for long centuries associated with pilgrimage. In the West, where the theological and liturgical foundation was perhaps weaker, during the Middle Ages "Our Lady" of one district came to take on an almost separate personality from the Virgin of a rival shrine. Sir Thomas More, the Roman Catholic Tudor martyr, commented, "They will make comparisons between our ladie of Ippiswitch and our ladie of Walsingham, as weening that one image hath more power than the other."

Nothing like this happened in the East. Rooted soundly and soberly in the solid theology of Orthodoxy, and spiritually nourished by a vernacular liturgy, the Lord's Mother fitted naturally into her rightful place in a perfectly balanced and harmonious whole. The Western distortion of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity resulting from the Filioque with its (almost unintentional) down-grading of the Holy Spirit, together with the historical events that overtook the Western Empire in the shape of the invasion of barbarian tribes and the resultant consequences, increasingly isolated the Church in the West from the pure Orthodoxy of the Church in the East.

With the restoration of order and stable government at the end of the Dark Ages, the Church in the West found itself with a largely illiterate and semi-barbarian laity. Churchmen had to supply the clerks and lawyers needed by the lay rulers. In consequence, the Papacy found itself relying on ecclesiastical lawyers, and this was to give the Roman Church the legalistic outlook and systematic philosophy which are its hallmarks. The ecclesiastical establishment acquired an overriding authority, and with the enforced celibacy of priests, "the Church" in common parlance came to mean the clergy. A faulty Trinitarian theology, and an undue emphasis on the Augustinian teachings on original sin and the Atonement, together with an all-male hierarchy, led to the loss of the feminine element in Western Christianity and created a "Goddess-shaped gap." The Virgin Mary was the obvious candidate to fill that gap.

In contrast, the Tradition was handed on unchanged from generation to generation in the Eastern Church. Apart from the treacherous Fourth Crusade, the Roman Empire in the East remained unconquered until the arrival of the Turks. There was always an independent and highly-educated laity. With a powerful Emperor there was never any opportunity—nor was there any need or the desire—to subject all lay power to the authority of the Patriarch, and "the Church" continued to mean the whole body of the faithful, past and present, including the angels. Married priests ensured that the priesthood was not a class apart. (As today, the priest lives in the same kind of house as his parishioners—a village priest in Cyprus may also be the village bootmaker, and a Greek papas, in cassock and stove pipe hat may be seen clasping a small son or daughter with one hand and a shopping basket with the other). There was no Goddess-shaped gap to be filled in Orthodoxy, and anchored safely in Orthodox theology and hymnology, the holy Virgin, more honourable than the cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim on account of her Divine Maternity, remained a woman with a human nature in all points like our own, completely purified by the Holy Spirit at the Annunciation in order that she might be able to give a human nature to the Eternal Logos.


Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,486



WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 08:23:45 AM »

Does anyone know of any comments from Orthodox saints about these apparitions?

My current take on these apparitions is this (and subject to change):

I was very much impressed by the Copt apparitions of Mary which have even photographic records. The most recent was even filmed and is in youtube. In these apparitions in Egypt, the Holy Virgin (if it is indeed her), usually appears on top of some church, walks around shining and then dissappears. No talking.

For the Romans the process is usually a personal apparition that turns collective and there is always some conversation and message.

With Orthodox, from what I've heard and read so far, apparitions are always personal (as with St. Seraphim of Sarov).


My reading of this is that these apparitions show how close these groups are in communion with the departed living saints of the Church, thus, how close they are to participate in the Energies of God which is the same thing.

With the Orthodox, who are members of the One-Holy Church and the temples of the Holy Spirit, communion with the saints is always *personal*. The Grace of God is within them and they talk to the living saints in a manner akin to Jesus talking to Moses and Elias on the mount.

With the Romans this communion is not so close. In fact, it's entirely exterior, the individual that is addressed is addressed as the first of what is, actually, a collective message. They are for an entire group and often about telling them to *return* to the Church.

With the Copts it is likewise a non-personal relation but there is not even talking, just a serene remembrance of her presence, what would suggest that are a step further away than the Romans.

With the Protestant, well, why would she talk to people who don't even want to talk with her and thinks she is dead contrary to the promise of her Son?

As regarding the consacration of Russia, it is strange indeed but not too much. Russia was going through what some staretz had called a collection possession period due to past sins. Now, it's true also that Roman authorities were quick to isolate the three children from direct contact with the exterior world and that the messages were filtered by these authorities. That is yet another aspect alien to traditional communication from the saints and angels which is never "mediated" by worldly authorities. This "mediation" though is a direct consequence of Roman ecclesiology where the very action of the Holy Spirit as Spirit of Truth is mediated by the Pope: Eternity is manifested in the world *through* Roman authority. Anyway, it is very possible that these officials have mixed whatever the Mother of God said with their own interests. In the case of Russia, I would not be surprised to learn that she asked for people to pray for Russia and that Roman officials added their "twist" of associating this with the consacration to the Immaculate Heart thinking that it would be a form of prayer and, with mistaken goodwill, thinking that it would advance a "true" worthy veneration.

Of course, with that I would be conceding that it was a true apparition of Mary. One of the weirdest things about it, that was pointed out to me by a convert priest from the Romans, was that one of the last apparitions was of the "three maries", a clear reference to a feminine "trinity". The excerpt below is from a Roman website dedicated to the devotion of the immaculate heart:

Quote
All saw a white vapor, like incense, form around the children and rise into the wet air. But they could not see the lady.

“I am the Lady of the Rosary. I want you to tell them to build a chapel here, and to continue to say the rosary every day.”

Then all saw the clouds part, and the sun appear like a great disk of white fire. But the children saw a vision of the Holy Family. Next Our Lady appeared as Our Lady of Sorrows, and beside her stood Jesus. He made the sign of the cross over the people. Finally, Our Lady came again as Our Lady of Mount Carmel. She was crowned, and the Infant Jesus stood on her knee.
http://www.theimmaculateheart.com/

This "marian modalism" is like no other apparition of a saint and suspiciously akin to a mockery of the Trinity.
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2010, 09:14:59 AM »

With the Protestant, well, why would she talk to people who don't even want to talk with her and thinks she is dead contrary to the promise of her Son?


A Protestant apology....

This is a poem in Welsh with a translation into English in which the author, former miner and librarian Einion Evans (1926 –), a Nonconformist, makes a tender and perceptive apology for his own and for his contemporaries' lack of reverence for the Virgin Mary. In so doing he speaks for so many of us, Catholic and Protestant.
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/fendigaid.html

***********************

Y Fendigaid Fair / The Blessed Mary

Y Fendigaid Fair


Troisom ein cefnau arnat, Forwyn Fair,
A’th barchu’n llai na doli glwt o ffair;
Yng ngolau llachar Crist a’i fythol wawr
Dallwyd ein llygaid i’th gyfraniad mawr.

Amheuwyd ganwaith dy ddidwylledd, do,
A gwnaethpwyd di fel merched rhad y fro.
Anghofiwyd mai tydi oedd cyfrwng Duw
I ddod a’i unig fab i blith y byw.

Dy nosau effro, ‘oes a’i rhifodd hwy?
Gwawdiwyd dy fab, ond ceraist Ef yn fwy,
Ac ni wyr neb yn iawn ond Ef a thi
Pa ingoedd ddaeth i’th ran ar Galfari.

Gwrando ni heno yn dy nef uwchben,
Derbyn dy barch dyledus, forwyn wen,
A maddau’n awr bob rhyw amharchus air
Ddaeth dros ein gwefus, o Fendigaid Fair.

©: Einion Evans, 1969.


The Blessed Mary

We turned our backs on you, Virgin Mary,
And respected you less than a rag doll from a fair;
In the blazing light of Christ and his eternal radiance
Our eyes were blinded to your great part.

Your sincerity we doubted a hundred times, yes,
And we treated you like some cheap local girl.
We had forgotten that you were God’s means
To place his only son among the living.

Your sleepless nights, who has counted them?
Your son was mocked, yet you loved Him more,
And no one but He and you can really know
What anguish was yours on Calvary.

Listen to us tonight in your heaven above,
Accept your due respect, holy virgin,
And forgive now every disrespectful word
That came from our lips, O Blessed Mary.



The author, Einion Evans, from Flintshire, was born into a typical Nonconformist family in 1926. The son of a miner he himself worked in Point of Ayr Colliery as a young man. Later he joined the Flintshire County Library. He won many prizes at local eisteddfodau. In 1983 he won the bardic chair at the National Eisteddfod for a poem arising out of his grief following the death of his only child, Ennis (herself a promising writer) a few years earlier.
Translation: Wales Famine Forum.

http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/fendigaid.html

Cyhoeddiwyd yn / published in The Green Dragon No 11, Summer 2002

http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/gdragon11.html
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2010, 09:19:50 AM »

Theres posts posted about this ,,Do a search ,Hopefully you will find the posts... Grin

Click on the tag Fatima at the bottom of the messages.
Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2010, 09:21:54 AM »

Maybe the pertinent question needs to be this:

Does this add to, or take away from, your relationship with the Lord?
Fatima is a private revelation. This means that no one need believe a thing about it. If this vision brings you closer to the Lord, then it is beneficial. If it is not, then simply ignore it.

Private revelations such as these can never take away from the faith that was delivered to the Apostles.

Sometimes, maybe we just make too much of these things. I've seen people think that this is absolutely diabolial. I've seen others focus too much on it so that it becomes their sole source of devotion. I think that both extremes are problematic, in my personal opinion.

While I tend to believe that Fatima is an authentic vision of the Mother of God, it really doesn't enter into my personal faith life.
Logged
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,486



WWW
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2010, 09:32:14 AM »

Maybe the pertinent question needs to be this:

Does this add to, or take away from, your relationship with the Lord?
Fatima is a private revelation. This means that no one need believe a thing about it. If this vision brings you closer to the Lord, then it is beneficial. If it is not, then simply ignore it.

Private revelations such as these can never take away from the faith that was delivered to the Apostles.

Sometimes, maybe we just make too much of these things. I've seen people think that this is absolutely diabolial. I've seen others focus too much on it so that it becomes their sole source of devotion. I think that both extremes are problematic, in my personal opinion.

While I tend to believe that Fatima is an authentic vision of the Mother of God, it really doesn't enter into my personal faith life.


Personal, having 70,000 witnesses? Smiley

As for me, my doubts about this are if it was an act of mercy of the Lady, calling the Romans to repent and return to the Church that was distorted by Roman officials (even today there is controversy about the "third secret". A version was revealed some years ago, but who knows if it wasn't a clearer call to return to the Church and that is why it was kept secret?). Or it maybe an outright demonic dellusion to deviate people from true worship to the veneration of an abstract concept (the immaculate heart) and thus loose their souls.

For the first possibility we have the support of miracles and healings. For the second with have the "demonic footprints" of UFOs, mockery of the Trinity, outright use of oppressive fear (the vision of hell) while God always said through His angels and saints "Do not fear", and that very old anti-christian message first heard in the desert by the Lord Himself "Venerate *ME* and peace will be brought to world".
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,094


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2010, 09:36:52 AM »

Quote
Private revelations such as these can never take away from the faith that was delivered to the Apostles.


.... but when such revelations distort the faith that was delivered to the Apostles ....  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 09:38:07 AM by LBK » Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2010, 09:40:46 AM »


Personal, having 70,000 witnesses? Smiley
70,000 witnesses (or whatever the number was) saw the miracle of the sun. The apparitions were to the three children only.
 
Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2010, 09:43:18 AM »

Quote
Private revelations such as these can never take away from the faith that was delivered to the Apostles.


.... but when such revelations distort the faith that was delivered to the Apostles ....  Roll Eyes
which is a discernment left to the Church, not to an individual.

Now, as soon as I say Church, the old argument of "which Church", the Catholic or Orthodox debate becomes the issue as to which is the "tue Church".
As I said, in my opinion, the message of fatima is this: convert, fast, pray, do penance.
Nothing in there contrary to the faith received. The other stuff is secondary.
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,094


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2010, 09:51:43 AM »

Quote
Nothing in there contrary to the faith received. The other stuff is secondary.

Secondary? I find it incomprehensible that the Mother of God, the most deified and perfected of human beings (if, indeed, it was her in the apparition), would express anything other than the truth. If some of what this woman in the vision said was indeed "secondary", then it casts grave doubt on who she is alleged to be.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 09:52:27 AM by LBK » Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2010, 09:58:01 AM »

Quote
Nothing in there contrary to the faith received. The other stuff is secondary.

Secondary? I find it incomprehensible that the Mother of God, the most deified and perfected of human beings (if, indeed, it was her in the apparition), would express anything other than the truth. If some of what this woman in the vision said was indeed "secondary", then it casts grave doubt on who she is alleged to be.
This makes no sense to me. "Secondary" doesn't make anything less true. I said that in response to how we discern something, and how we integrate it into our own personal faith life.

Prayer, fasting, conversion, penance, are primary ways in which Christians are to live our lives. The other stuff is not because the primary focuses on matters of the heart, and the others focus on matters of the intellect.
There's nothing problematic about that at all.
Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2010, 10:03:20 AM »

I think there is some difference in perception of what it means to have a devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

This simply means to enter into contemplation of our Lady's suffering, and to bring ourselves to join in that suffering and let ourselves be transformed by that suffering. The Blessed Virgin's suffering is NEVER independent of her Son. It is united to her Son, and so through contemplation of that suffering, we have another avenue of entering into the mystery of the suffering of the Lord.

Really, that's all it is. Nothing diabolical about it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 10:03:53 AM by danman916 » Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,094


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2010, 10:16:37 AM »

Quote
Prayer, fasting, conversion, penance

Conversion of the Russian people? Conversion of the nation which became Orthodox a good 1000 years before Fatima? Conversion of the mami and babushki, common folks and gentry, and of the untold thousands martyrs and confessors of the Soviet period, men and women, layman, cleric and monastic, who steadfastly maintained their Orthodox faith against the worst brutality and oppression the soviet system could throw at them? Conversion of the folks who hid the Bibles and books, who stashed away the icons, who made sure the babies were baptised, folks in the gulags who held clandestine liturgies? Or of those who did not disguise their faith to the authorities, like (to name but one) St Luke of Simferopol, bishop and distinguished professor of surgery, who insisted an icon of the Mother of God be hanging in any operating theater he worked in, and who would pray before it before commencing surgery? These people needed conversion??

I have members of my extended family still alive who lived through it all. The woman in the apparition sure got it wrong.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 10:26:19 AM by LBK » Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2010, 10:25:41 AM »

Where did I talk about the conversion of the Russian people as if they were pagans?
Conversion, fasting, penance, prayer was the calling of the individual.

Now, in regards to the consecration of Russia, this was about Communism and the errors of Communism, not the individuals.

I'm still not seeing the problem in the message.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,834


"My god is greater."


« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2010, 10:28:38 AM »

What seems to make it real, in my opinion, is that the apparition is telling people to turn from sin.  Would a demon do that kind of thing? 

Yes. Demons have mixed all kinds of fine sentiments with their lies. Witness all the false religions and sects that proliferate in the world. Demons generally don't appear to people saying "KILL KILL KILL!" They're a little more sophisticated than that... it's better to talk about love, peace, unity, etc. 
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2010, 10:35:02 AM »

This is why discernment is left to the Church, not to the individual, in matters such as these.
Logged
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,486



WWW
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2010, 10:40:04 AM »

I think there is some difference in perception of what it means to have a devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

This simply means to enter into contemplation of our Lady's suffering, and to bring ourselves to join in that suffering and let ourselves be transformed by that suffering. The Blessed Virgin's suffering is NEVER independent of her Son. It is united to her Son, and so through contemplation of that suffering, we have another avenue of entering into the mystery of the suffering of the Lord.

Really, that's all it is. Nothing diabolical about it.


What the Vatican teaches about it is:

Quote
In order that, properly speaking, there may be devotion to the Heart of Mary, the attention and the homage of the faithful must be directed to the physical heart itself. However, this in itself is not sufficient; the faithful must read therein all that the human heart of Mary suggests, all of which it is the expressive symbol and the living reminder: Mary's interior life, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for her God, her maternal love for her Divine Son, and her motherly and compassionate love for her sinful and miserable children here below. The consideration of Mary's interior life and the beauties of her soul, without any thought of her physical heart, does not constitute our devotion; still less does it consist in the consideration of the Heart of Mary merely as a part of her virginal body. The two elements are essential to the devotion, just as soul and body are necessary to the constitution of man.
From the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07168a.htm )


It is an imaginative contemplation of Her physical heart associated with the contemplation of the spiritual's suffering.

The diabolical deviations there are:

Let's compare it with the veneration of actual relics. The relic that is physically present acts in the mystery of real presence as reminder and conductor of attention *from* it *to* God. The mistake veneration taught by the Vatican put the physical heart as the very target of the veneration. Subtle, but terrible difference;

the second diabolical deviation is the active exercise of imagination that is typical of Vatican spirituality and alien to Church tradition;

the third diabolical deviation is the inherently anti-catholic aspect of it, since it, unlike the relics which go from the part to the whole, this "message" calls us to abandon catholicism (katta holos, what is according to the whole), to adopt catamerism (katta meros, which is according to the part).

This choosing of the part over the whole is the systematic theological mistake of the West: choosing Augustin as key to the other Fathers, the Pope over the other Bishops, the Scriptures over the other Traditions, and now, the hearts of Mary and Jesus over the whole of their persons.

Note that when I say choosing the part instead of the whole, I am just saying in English what in Greek would be abandoning that which is "kat'holic" for what is "katta meric". There is nothing "according to the whole" (catholic) in what is clearly "according to the part" (catameric).
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2010, 10:48:00 AM »

Quote
Nothing in there contrary to the faith received. The other stuff is secondary.

Secondary? I find it incomprehensible that the Mother of God, the most deified and perfected of human beings (if, indeed, it was her in the apparition), would express anything other than the truth. If some of what this woman in the vision said was indeed "secondary", then it casts grave doubt on who she is alleged to be.
This makes no sense to me. "Secondary" doesn't make anything less true. I said that in response to how we discern something, and how we integrate it into our own personal faith life.

Prayer, fasting, conversion, penance, are primary ways in which Christians are to live our lives. The other stuff is not because the primary focuses on matters of the heart, and the others focus on matters of the intellect.
There's nothing problematic about that at all.

Danman,

Maybe I am, once again, totally missing the point of your writing but I do not consider that the consecration of Russia to the woman of Fatima and her heart and the conversion of the Russian people to the Roman obedience is "secondary."


http://www.tldm.org/news7/ConversionOfRussia.htm

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."

That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,094


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2010, 10:50:31 AM »

Quote
Where did I talk about the conversion of the Russian people as if they were pagans? Conversion, fasting, penance, prayer was the calling of the individual.

The bulk of the people of Russia were already well-versed in fasting, penance, prayer. Apparitions were not necessary, nor did they need to be "converted" to a non-Orthodox faith.

Quote
Now, in regards to the consecration of Russia, this was about Communism and the errors of Communism, not the individuals.

According to one of the children who saw the visions:

 "But in the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father (and the remaining bishops) will consecrate Russia to Me. Russia will be converted and a period of peace will be given to mankind."?

"... It was Our Lady of Fátima... with a crown of thorns... and said to me: "The moment has come in which God asks the Holy Father in union with all the Bishops of the world to consecrate Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means.""

Quote
I'm still not seeing the problem in the message.

You should be. The people of Russia were able to maintain their Orthodoxy without any papal "consecrations". Read some history, my friend. Better still, listen to what the Orthodox survivors of Bolshevism have to say, and read the lives of the saints who were martyred, or who survived as confessors. Do a search on "New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia".

Here's a link to get you started:

http://users.sisqtel.net/williams/rcs/index.html



« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 10:58:02 AM by LBK » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2010, 10:56:39 AM »

Quote
Prayer, fasting, conversion, penance

Conversion of the Russian people? Conversion of the nation which became Orthodox a good 1000 years before Fatima? Conversion of the mami and babushki, common folks and gentry, and of the untold thousands martyrs and confessors of the Soviet period, men and women, layman, cleric and monastic, who steadfastly maintained their Orthodox faith against the worst brutality and oppression the soviet system could throw at them? Conversion of the folks who hid the Bibles and books, who stashed away the icons, who made sure the babies were baptised, folks in the gulags who held clandestine liturgies? These people needed conversion?

I have members of my extended family still alive who lived through it all. The woman in the apparition sure got it wrong.
Conversion of a country that became institutionally atheist.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2010, 10:56:39 AM »


Now, in regards to the consecration of Russia, this was about Communism and the errors of Communism, not the individuals.

I'm still not seeing the problem in the message.

That's how I have always understood the message.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2010, 10:56:39 AM »

I think there is some difference in perception of what it means to have a devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

This simply means to enter into contemplation of our Lady's suffering, and to bring ourselves to join in that suffering and let ourselves be transformed by that suffering. The Blessed Virgin's suffering is NEVER independent of her Son. It is united to her Son, and so through contemplation of that suffering, we have another avenue of entering into the mystery of the suffering of the Lord.

Really, that's all it is. Nothing diabolical about it.


What the Vatican teaches about it is:

Quote
In order that, properly speaking, there may be devotion to the Heart of Mary, the attention and the homage of the faithful must be directed to the physical heart itself. However, this in itself is not sufficient; the faithful must read therein all that the human heart of Mary suggests, all of which it is the expressive symbol and the living reminder: Mary's interior life, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for her God, her maternal love for her Divine Son, and her motherly and compassionate love for her sinful and miserable children here below. The consideration of Mary's interior life and the beauties of her soul, without any thought of her physical heart, does not constitute our devotion; still less does it consist in the consideration of the Heart of Mary merely as a part of her virginal body. The two elements are essential to the devotion, just as soul and body are necessary to the constitution of man.
From the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07168a.htm )


It is an imaginative contemplation of Her physical heart associated with the contemplation of the spiritual's suffering.

The diabolical deviations there are:

Let's compare it with the veneration of actual relics. The relic that is physically present acts in the mystery of real presence as reminder and conductor of attention *from* it *to* God. The mistake veneration taught by the Vatican put the physical heart as the very target of the veneration. Subtle, but terrible difference;

the second diabolical deviation is the active exercise of imagination that is typical of Vatican spirituality and alien to Church tradition;

the third diabolical deviation is the inherently anti-catholic aspect of it, since it, unlike the relics which go from the part to the whole, this "message" calls us to abandon catholicism (katta holos, what is according to the whole), to adopt catamerism (katta meros, which is according to the part).

This choosing of the part over the whole is the systematic theological mistake of the West: choosing Augustin as key to the other Fathers, the Pope over the other Bishops, the Scriptures over the other Traditions, and now, the hearts of Mary and Jesus over the whole of their persons.

Note that when I say choosing the part instead of the whole, I am just saying in English what in Greek would be abandoning that which is "kat'holic" for what is "katta meric". There is nothing "according to the whole" (catholic) in what is clearly "according to the part" (catameric).

Ah, the non-Catholic gift of creating silly problems where none exist, stretching to find reasons to attack the Catholic Church. It's posts like this that reinforce my convictions that the Catholic Church is Christ's Church.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2010, 11:01:22 AM »


Let's compare it with the veneration of actual relics. The relic that is physically present acts in the mystery of real presence as reminder and conductor of attention *from* it *to* God. The mistake veneration taught by the Vatican put the physical heart as the very target of the veneration. Subtle, but terrible difference;
I think the problem in your argument is the comparison you are trying to make. We are not venerating her heart. It is a contemplation. What was said in the article says much the same as I tried to explain.

Quote
the second diabolical deviation is the active exercise of imagination that is typical of Vatican spirituality
I have no idea what "Vatican spirituality is". How can there be a diabolical deviation when there is no such thing. In order to really discuss this would require whether or not western spirituality is valid or not. Perhaps it is not common to eastern spirituality, but that doesn't automatically mean it is diabolical.

Quote
the third diabolical deviation is the inherently anti-catholic aspect of it, since it, unlike the relics which go from the part to the whole, this "message" calls us to abandon catholicism (katta holos, what is according to the whole), to adopt catamerism (katta meros, which is according to the part).
I disagree. I don't see this at all, and the article you sighted even seems to affirm this. It goes from the part (heart) to the whole, her life in union with her Son.


Quote
This choosing of the part over the whole is the systematic theological mistake of the West: choosing Augustin as key to the other Fathers, the Pope over the other Bishops, the Scriptures over the other Traditions, and now, the hearts of Mary and Jesus over the whole of their persons.
I disagree. It is simply a difference between Eastern and Western Spirituality. Western spirituality is not diabolical simply because it does not conform to the East's tradition.


 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 11:02:42 AM by danman916 » Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2010, 11:01:49 AM »

Papist,

I couldn't agree more, with you.
Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2010, 11:05:17 AM »

   
 Read some history, my friend.
these kinds of statements really advance the conversation.

Ok, i'll start using that statement when I hear Orthodox stating the whopper's of their false perceptions about Catholicism. We'll just see how far the conversation goes, then.   Roll Eyes

I'm really not interested when the polemical statements get brought out.

 
Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2010, 11:12:51 AM »

When I see something from another Christian faith that seems contradictory to me, my approach is to address the subject by explaining how I understand it to be, then ask those who adhere to that particular faith tradition to explain it, if I am not understanding correctly.

I suppose that no one has to approach debate topics from that perspective, but the subtle understanding is that one is approaching the subject respectfully with the intention for dialogue and greater understanding.

Instead, the charge is made here that the apparition is diabolical, and the approach is a guilty until proven innocent approach. That is confrontational and is usually masked as “speaking the truth in love”. Who would approach their brother this way? Most of the time, one would assume good faith on the part of the other, and the discussion of brothers would hopefully lead to enlightenment on both sides where the Spirit can work to bring the truth.

But I guess that’s the nature of internet forums. But it's not a very pastoral approach.

Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,094


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2010, 11:15:07 AM »

Quote
Prayer, fasting, conversion, penance

Conversion of the Russian people? Conversion of the nation which became Orthodox a good 1000 years before Fatima? Conversion of the mami and babushki, common folks and gentry, and of the untold thousands martyrs and confessors of the Soviet period, men and women, layman, cleric and monastic, who steadfastly maintained their Orthodox faith against the worst brutality and oppression the soviet system could throw at them? Conversion of the folks who hid the Bibles and books, who stashed away the icons, who made sure the babies were baptised, folks in the gulags who held clandestine liturgies? These people needed conversion?

I have members of my extended family still alive who lived through it all. The woman in the apparition sure got it wrong.
Conversion of a country that became institutionally atheist.

Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

Quote
Read some history, my friend.


Quote
these kinds of statements really advance the conversation.

Of course they do. Or have you missed the historical examples I have given?
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,094


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2010, 11:28:52 AM »

Quote
Instead, the charge is made here that the apparition is diabolical

Others here may have asserted the apparition is diabolical, but not me. Just sayin'.  police
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2010, 11:55:48 AM »



Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

What's your point?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,486



WWW
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2010, 12:45:21 PM »


Now, in regards to the consecration of Russia, this was about Communism and the errors of Communism, not the individuals.

I'm still not seeing the problem in the message.

That's how I have always understood the message.

That's not how the Roman church understand it though, and in that you are deviating from what it is the proper teaching of Rome. Irish hermit has in a few posts before the statements of the chief archivist on the case plus two statements from the Pope. Your belief that it was restricted to leaving Communism for Christianism is, from a Roman point of view, wrong.
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,486



WWW
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2010, 12:58:56 PM »

Quote
We are not venerating her heart. It is a contemplation. What was said in the article says much the same as I tried to explain.

If that is the case, then we are restricted to points 2 and 3.

Quote
Quote
the second diabolical deviation is the active exercise of imagination that is typical of Vatican spirituality
I have no idea what "Vatican spirituality is". How can there be a diabolical deviation when there is no such thing. In order to really discuss this would require whether or not western spirituality is valid or not. Perhaps it is not common to eastern spirituality, but that doesn't automatically mean it is diabolical.

It is the series of spiritual practices that are focused on the operations of the mind, just like contemplations. Jesuistic spiritual exercises are a case in point. This focus on the mind starts with the ascension of the role of philosophy and soon degenerates into a series of exercises of imagination, visualizing images in the mind systematically.

Quote
Quote
the third diabolical deviation is the inherently anti-catholic aspect of it, since it, unlike the relics which go from the part to the whole, this "message" calls us to abandon catholicism (katta holos, what is according to the whole), to adopt catamerism (katta meros, which is according to the part).
I disagree. I don't see this at all, and the article you sighted even seems to affirm this. It goes from the part (heart) to the whole, her life in union with her Son.

Again, even from a Roman point of view: you have Romans who worship Jesus Christ and venerate the Holy Virgin in a natural, spontaneous way, that is, as whole persons. Then, an apparition comes and tells them to focus on the heart. That is from the whole to the part.

Quote
Quote
This choosing of the part over the whole is the systematic theological mistake of the West: choosing Augustin as key to the other Fathers, the Pope over the other Bishops, the Scriptures over the other Traditions, and now, the hearts of Mary and Jesus over the whole of their persons.
I disagree. It is simply a difference between Eastern and Western Spirituality. Western spirituality is not diabolical simply because it does not conform to the East's tradition.

It's a difference between Western and Christian spirituality. Just like Romans would - and did - say that Hesycasm is non-Christian. And truly, they can't be both right at the same time. And *that* is why the saints and fathers were so strong about even subtle aspects of spiritual life. The stymuli to the mind that western spirituality provokes seriously jeopardizes spiritual progress and because it is using the wrong tool, it can't deliver the desired healing. We only have to discriminate here what is a criticism of the tools (Western spirituality is an unproper tool) and the mercy of God which can act extrinsically on people and wait until Judgement Day to bring them into the Church.
 
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2010, 12:59:31 PM »

The Fatima appearance occurred after the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II in March 1917, but before the Bolshevik Revolution of November 1917.

Given the history of the Roman Catholic Church and Muscovy/Russian Empire, which had been one of antagonism for centuries, it is quite likely that the Fatima vision for the conversion of Russia can well be interpreted as a conversion to Roman Catholicism, especially since the Provisional Government had not formally adopted a policy of militant atheism as the later, Bolshevik government did. We tend to interpret things anachronistically if we look at the Russia Fatima was speaking of as atheist. Russia had the same sort of republican government as Portugal at the time.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,094


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2010, 01:06:23 PM »



Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

What's your point?

My dear papist, is the point so hard to see?

That while the government and authorities of Russia were atheist, the minds and hearts of the great majority of the people were firmly rooted in Orthodoxy. To publicly acknowledge God's presence and His protection of the Russian troops and people would have mightily stuck in Stalin's atheist craw, but there's no escaping the fact that he did indeed invoke God to rally the troops and people.

I have provided personal and historical examples and illustrations exposing the fallacy of the need to "consecrate" and "convert" Russia. If this is not good enough for you, then what would you make of the fact that, for more than a thousand years, more icons have been painted, and more churches have been dedicated to the Mother of God and her feasts, including of her icons (Vladimirskaya, Smolenskaya, Tikhvinskaya, etc), than for any other saint? Russia had dedicated itself to the Mother of God, and has consistently venerated her, many centuries before bolshevism. The supposed need for a Papal "consecration" is at best misguided, at worst, an insult to the historic faith of the Russian people, past and present, particularly to her saints of the Soviet period - more martyrs than the first three centuries of Christianity, no less.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 01:17:21 PM by LBK » Logged
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,486



WWW
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2010, 01:29:53 PM »



Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

What's your point?

My dear papist, is the point so hard to see?

That while the government and authorities of Russia were atheist, the minds and hearts of the great majority of the people were firmly rooted in Orthodoxy. To publicly acknowledge God's presence and His protection of the Russian troops and people would have mightily stuck in Stalin's atheist craw, but there's no escaping the fact that he did indeed invoke God to rally the troops and people.

I have provided personal and historical examples and illustrations exposing the fallacy of the need to "consecrate" and "convert" Russia. If this is not good enough for you, then what would you make of the fact that, for more than a thousand years, more icons have been painted, and more churches have been dedicated to the Mother of God and her feasts, including of her icons (Vladimirskaya, Smolenskaya, Tikhvinskaya, etc), than for any other saint? Russia had dedicated itself to the Mother of God, and has consistently venerated her, many centuries before bolshevism. The supposed need for a Papal "consecration" is at best misguided, at worst, an insult to the historic faith of the Russian people, past and present, particularly to her saints of the Soviet period - more martyrs than the first three centuries of Christianity, no less.



Plus, there is an icon of the Theotokos enthroned as Queen of Heaven that was miraculously found around the same time of the abdication of St. Nicholas II, thus symbolizing She was reigning directly over Russia. While apparitions were going to make their show with none of the discretion or humility of the Theotokos, She was sending Her real message about the rise of comunism in Russia with the same humility, discretion and sweetness we see in the Gospels, calling upon Herself Her responsibility, but not calling attention to Herself more than to Her Son, or strange innovative doctrines and practices. While lies were to be spread about He relation to Russia, she beforehand silenced them with the seal of Her mercy. No consacration was necessary, She would not have to ask to have what She already did. She was already in charge Herself.

Icon of the Mother of God "Enthroned"

The “Enthroned” (or “Reigning”) Icon of the Mother of God appeared on March 2, 1917, the day of Tsar Nicholas II’s abdication, in the village of Kolomskoye near Moscow, Russia.

In February 1917, an elderly woman named Eudokia saw the Mother of God in a dream telling her to go to Kolomskoye to find a large blackened icon in a church. After this vision occurred to her three times, Eudokia went to Kolomskoye to search for the icon with the priest Nicholas.

In the basement of a church, they found the icon and started wiping off the accumulated dust. They were then able to see the Most Holy Theotokos wearing a crown and sitting on a throne. Immediately, Father Nicholas celebrated a service of Thanksgiving and an Akathist.

News of the icon’s discovery spread throughout Russia, and there were several miracles of healing from physical and mental infirmities. As time went by, the icon renewed itself and became brighter and brighter.

Since the icon was revealed just as the Tsar abdicated, many people believed that the Queen of Heaven had assumed royal authority over the Russian land, and so the icon became known as the “Enthroned” (or “Reigning”) icon. Upon additional research, it was learned that the icon had come from the Ascension Convent in Moscow. In 1812, before Napoleon’s invasion, this icon and others were sent to the Church of the Ascension in the village of Kolomskoye for safekeeping. Apparently forgotten, the icons were never returned to Moscow.

A Service and Akathist to the “Enthroned” Icon were composed with the assistance of His Holiness Patriarch Tikhon (+1925). Many copies of the icon were venerated throughout Russia, but these were confiscated by the Soviets. The Service and Akathist to the icon were also forbidden to be served.

The original icon is said to be in the Novodevichy Museum in Moscow, and there is a copy in the Church of the Kazan Mother of God in Kolomskoye.

The “Enthroned” or “Reigning” Icon, which belongs to the Panachranta type, shows the Theotokos seated on a throne with Her Son.

By permission of the Orthodox Church in America (www.oca.org)
http://www.antiochian.org/node/17614
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 01:43:51 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,958


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2010, 04:03:57 PM »



Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

What's your point?

My dear papist, is the point so hard to see?

That while the government and authorities of Russia were atheist, the minds and hearts of the great majority of the people were firmly rooted in Orthodoxy. To publicly acknowledge God's presence and His protection of the Russian troops and people would have mightily stuck in Stalin's atheist craw, but there's no escaping the fact that he did indeed invoke God to rally the troops and people.

I have provided personal and historical examples and illustrations exposing the fallacy of the need to "consecrate" and "convert" Russia. If this is not good enough for you, then what would you make of the fact that, for more than a thousand years, more icons have been painted, and more churches have been dedicated to the Mother of God and her feasts, including of her icons (Vladimirskaya, Smolenskaya, Tikhvinskaya, etc), than for any other saint? Russia had dedicated itself to the Mother of God, and has consistently venerated her, many centuries before bolshevism. The supposed need for a Papal "consecration" is at best misguided, at worst, an insult to the historic faith of the Russian people, past and present, particularly to her saints of the Soviet period - more martyrs than the first three centuries of Christianity, no less.


And what iswrong with wanting Institutional Russia to be converted so that the persecution of Christians would end?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Tags: apparitions Fatima 
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.225 seconds with 87 queries.