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Author Topic: Half a million Guatemalan Indians accept Orthodoxy / Orthodoxy in Guatemala  (Read 12011 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 16, 2010, 09:40:50 AM »



http://www.pravoslavie.ru/news/35675.htm

Half a million Guatemalan Indians accepted Orthodoxy
Guatemala, June 15, 2010


[Machine translation] Recently, Orthodox Church accepted into its bosom the so-called "Orthodox-Catholic Church of Guatemala, which was a branch of" Orthodox-Catholic Church of America, "according to Sedmitsa.Ru. Founded in the late 19th century, it was not in canonical communion with the Local Orthodox Churches.

However, for several months, as the former "Orthodox-Catholic Church of Guatemala has been active in the jurisdiction of the Constantinople Patriarchate, reported in the Mexican metropolis of Ecumenical Patriarchate, which was adopted by the Guatemalan church.

A particularly important role in bringing half a million Guatemalans into the bosom of the Orthodox Church played a Serb - Archimandrite Andrew (Vujisich).

"Orthodox-Catholic Church of Guatemala," consists of more than half a million faithful, most of them - local, Indian population, with 334 churches in Guatemala and southern Mexico, and 12 priests.

With the blessing of Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico Archimandrite Andrew (Vujisich) took the hard work in training qualified personnel, knowledgeable in the culture of Guatemala and Latin America for leadership positions in the now canonical Orthodox Church.

Surprisingly, the Indians may soon become the main ethnic group in the Orthodox Church in the Americas. "Personally, I would be glad," - said recently, primate of the Orthodox Church in America, Metropolitan Jonah.

He noted that the Catholic Church is losing influence in Latin America because of too close relations with the ruling classes. Much of the poorest people who constitute the majority of the region, frustrated in Catholicism, goes to the Protestants, Mormons and others, explains the head of the American Orthodox Church.


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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 09:54:04 AM »

Has anyone seen more information about this from one of the Autocephalous Churches' websites (versus news or other Orthodox sites)?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 09:54:44 AM by Fr. George » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 09:57:50 AM »

Glory to God!
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 10:06:03 AM »

Really hope that this is entirely accurate. I have read accounts of Islam making inroads in Central America & this could be a reversal of that bringing the people back to Christ. Glory to God.
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 10:57:38 AM »

Has anyone seen more information about this from one of the Autocephalous Churches' websites (versus news or other Orthodox sites)?

As far as I know the only one official site of the autocephalous Churches that has newsreports considering topics outside their playground is the site of the Church of Serbia and as I remember it wasn't there. Suprisingly it wasn't also on the site of the Church of Constantinople.

I mean only English language versions.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 11:24:21 AM by mike » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 11:31:52 AM »

As far as I know the only one official site of the autocephalous Churches that has newsreports considering topics outside their playground is the site of the Church of Serbia and as I remember it wasn't there. Suprisingly it wasn't also on the site of the Church of Constantinople.

I mean only English language versions.

I'm not surprised - frequently the Ecumenical Patriarchate's site goes months without updates (except to the ecclesiastical calendar).
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 12:20:04 PM »

The EP is always updating the calendar! Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2010, 12:32:46 PM »

The EP is always updating the calendar! Tongue


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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2010, 03:27:08 PM »

I found this link: http://www.prescottorthodox.org/2010/04/5000-indians-baptized-orthodox-in-mexico/
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 03:57:39 PM »


It's the another one case Wink
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 04:45:00 PM »

The website of the General Secretariat for Pan Orthodox Ministries now has 
some really nice photos up from visits to Guatemala and those who have
converted  to Orthodox Christianity. See them at:
 
http://www.secretariat.orthodoxtheologicalinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_oziogallery2&view=01tilt3d&Itemid=54
 
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 07:04:50 PM »

My sources from Mexico told me that the actual number is "80000" who converted to the Orthodox faith and not Half a million.


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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 07:32:13 PM »

The website of the General Secretariat for Pan Orthodox Ministries now has 
some really nice photos up from visits to Guatemala and those who have
converted  to Orthodox Christianity. See them at:
 
http://www.secretariat.orthodoxtheologicalinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_oziogallery2&view=01tilt3d&Itemid=54
 


Thank you for the link.  Good pictures
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 07:33:08 PM »

My sources from Mexico told me that the actual number is "80000" who converted to the Orthodox faith and not Half a million.


In Christ,
Subdeacon Karim!

Thanks for the info.  That is still larger than most jurisdictions in North America!
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2010, 11:50:57 PM »

My sources from Mexico told me that the actual number is "80000" who converted to the Orthodox faith and not Half a million.


In Christ,
Subdeacon Karim!

That seems more realistic.

500,000 people in 334 parishes and 12 priests? That's 1,500 per parish and almost 42,000 people per priest.

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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2010, 12:00:33 AM »

My sources from Mexico told me that the actual number is "80000" who converted to the Orthodox faith and not Half a million.


In Christ,
Subdeacon Karim!

That seems more realistic.

500,000 people in 334 parishes and 12 priests? That's 1,500 per parish and almost 42,000 people per priest.

That isn't unheard of...
The GOA has 2,000,000 with 540 parishes and 800 priests...
(3,700 per parish, but 2,500 per priest)

Look at the Roman Catholic Church, 1,170,000,000 people. 408,000 Priests, 218,000 parishes...
Thats 5,300 people per parish, and 2,800 people per priest.

We can't really assume that all 500,000 attend church EVERY Sunday. Besides, even the OCA leadership knew about this group. There is another, smaller group that also approached the OCA in Guatemala.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 12:06:57 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2010, 09:20:48 PM »

http://piousfabrications.blogspot.com/2010/05/527000-souls-received-into-holy.html
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2010, 09:22:42 PM »

Sorry, should post the pertinent material from above link:
His Eminence Metropolitan ATHENAGORAS of Mexico expressed his great pleasure in welcoming the Orthodox Catholic Church of Guatemala, which was received in its entirety, including their former clergy, seminarians, lay ministers, catechists and affiliated membership into the canonical family of the Orthodox Church. Following their official reception, the leaders of OCCG, Messrs. Andrew Girón and Michael Castellanos traveled to Mexico City where on the weekend of March 19-21, they were ordained to the Holy Priesthood, receiving the title of Archimandrite.

The OCCG has an approximate membership of 527,000 faithful and catechumens, overwhelmingly indigenous, with 334 churches in Guatemala and southern Mexico, with 12 (formerly OCCG) clergymen and 14 seminarians, who are assisted in their pastoral ministry by 250 lay ministers and 380 catechists. The administrative offices of the OCCG are located on 280 acres of land, with a community college and 2 schools with 12 professors / teachers. Additionally, the OCCG has an established monastery located on 480 acres of land. Fourteen students from Guatemala, with full scholarship, are now enrolled in the St. Gregory Nazianzen Orthodox Theological Institute Licentiate degree program
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2010, 09:36:43 PM »

That isn't unheard of...
The GOA has 2,000,000 with 540 parishes and 800 priests...
(3,700 per parish, but 2,500 per priest)

Are those numbers from the GOA?  The Hartford Institute for Religious Research numbers are, I'm sorry, lower.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/orthodoxsummary.html

Ebor
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2010, 09:50:24 PM »

I assume the priests are only 12 in number because some need ordained from among the ranks of clergy.   The "lay ministers" I assume are subdeacons or readers who were clergy of the former body but are not yet ordained Orthodox priests?   It is tough to figure out the ratio of 12 priests to this many parishes.  
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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2010, 09:51:55 PM »

That isn't unheard of...
The GOA has 2,000,000 with 540 parishes and 800 priests...
(3,700 per parish, but 2,500 per priest)

Are those numbers from the GOA?  The Hartford Institute for Religious Research numbers are, I'm sorry, lower.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/orthodoxsummary.html

Ebor

I know.  Real numbers are hard to come by.   Is the person who shows up once every two years a "member"? 
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2010, 10:00:24 PM »


Are those numbers from the GOA?  The Hartford Institute for Religious Research numbers are, I'm sorry, lower.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/orthodoxsummary.html

Ebor

That was quite a jolt!

Greek members of the GOA --------    400,000

Guatemalan members of the GOA  ---  527,000

Overnight the Homogenia just became a secondary statistic in its own Church.   Will this be a set back for the promotion of Hellenism in America?
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2010, 10:17:29 PM »

The official website is here:

http://www.secretariat.orthodoxtheologicalinstitute.org/

Updates are a bit slow to be published as all of us involved in this tremendous event also have full time jobs to support family and church. The real need is in support. Not just financial but with materials from catechism to liturgical. This is also ones of the purposes of the seminary as a primary task is to properly train clergy. The website in in English but will be published in Spanish as well.  

Seminary website: http://www.orthodoxtheologicalinstitute.org/ (also in Spanish)

Updates will be forthcoming soon with new pictures and new announcements. I also want to make clear the scope of the task. It is not like 500,000 + all of a sudden become Orthodox. This will be years, I mean years in the making as these lovely indigenous people come to understand the fullness of the faith. It is a delicate situation over there and prayers / support are greatly needed. If you are serious about becoming involved please contact:

Protopresbyter Dr. Peter DiLeo-Vulić
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Fr.PeterDileo@OrthodoxTheologicalInstitute.org

General Secretariat for Pan-Orthodox Ministries
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787 640 5461


From the news section:

The OCCG has an approximate membership of 527,000 faithful and catechumens, overwhelmingly indigenous, with 334 churches in Guatemala and southern Mexico, with 12 (formerly OCCG) clergymen and 14 seminarians, who are assisted in their pastoral ministry by 250 lay ministers and 380 catechists. The administrative offices of the OCCG are located on 280 acres of land, with a community college and 2 schools with 12 professors / teachers. Additionally, the OCCG has an established monastery located on 480 acres of land. Fourteen students from Guatemala, with full scholarship, are now enrolled in the St. Gregory Nazianzen Orthodox Theological Institute Licentiate degree program. The seminary is fully accredited by the Holy Metropolis’ Department of Education.

These numbers are not generated by us but by the former OCCG themselves.

If you have any questions I will do me best to answer them for you.

In Christ,
Fr. Deacon Daniel Williamson
OTI / Secretariat Administrator

"for the harvest is great but the workers are few" (Matthew 9:37)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 10:32:43 PM by Fr. Deacon Daniel » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2010, 10:22:32 PM »


Are those numbers from the GOA?  The Hartford Institute for Religious Research numbers are, I'm sorry, lower.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/orthodoxsummary.html

Ebor

That was quite a jolt!

Greek members of the GOA --------    400,000

Guatemalan members of the GOA  ---  527,000

Overnight the Homogenia just became a secondary statistic in its own Church.   Will this be a set back for the promotion of Hellenism in America?

Irish, we are under Metropolitan ATHENAGORAS not GOA.
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2010, 10:48:31 PM »


Are those numbers from the GOA?  The Hartford Institute for Religious Research numbers are, I'm sorry, lower.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/orthodoxsummary.html

Ebor

That was quite a jolt!

Greek members of the GOA --------    400,000

Guatemalan members of the GOA  ---  527,000

Overnight the Homogenia just became a secondary statistic in its own Church.   Will this be a set back for the promotion of Hellenism in America?

Irish, we are under Metropolitan ATHENAGORAS not GOA.

Yes, I do realise that, but for a non-American, America means all America, North and South. 

I suppose that is as bad as confusing the Scots and the English! 

But blame the Greeks in the United States who have misleading named their Archdiocese the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese "of America."   

Archishop Demetrios is styled:

His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios of America
Primate of the Greek Orthodox Church in America


Seems they are claiming more than the United States.  Someone should suggest they correct their name and the Archbishop's titles! 

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2010, 11:18:26 PM »

That isn't unheard of...
The GOA has 2,000,000 with 540 parishes and 800 priests...
(3,700 per parish, but 2,500 per priest)

Are those numbers from the GOA?  The Hartford Institute for Religious Research numbers are, I'm sorry, lower.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/orthodoxsummary.html

Ebor

My point is that not everyone that is considered a member (or rather, an adherant) regularly attends. (in fact, many only twice a year, if that)
Is it really our place to judge how Orthodox these people are?

Also, "membership" in a Parish and someone that is baptized Orthodox are two different things (they shouldn't be, but they are). I suspect the 2 million number for the GOA is baptized faithful, whereas the 500,000 number is those that are actual participating members. As for the OCA, the 1.2 million that is claimed is baptized, whereas the 115,000 is regularly participating.

Do you honestly believe that ALL 280 million Orthodox Christians in the world attend Church regularly? The real number of regularly participating faithful is MUCH lower. However, it is NOT our job to judge how "Orthodox" these people are/are not. We can only say where the Holy Spirit is, not where he is not. Therefore, it is innacurate to say that there are only 800,000 or so Orthodox Christians in the USA, because the number of actual baptized Orthodox is much greater.

If you reread my earlier post. I posted the overall numbers for the GOA and the RCC... The numbers of active participants in the GOA and the RCC are obviously significantly lower. (which was my point) This group of Guatemalans coming into the Church (Praise God for it) may not all be regularly participating members of their Parishes. But even so, it's not our job to judge how "Orthodox" they will be just based on their participation rates.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 11:20:39 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2010, 02:51:51 AM »

The man who carries the responsibility of the largest diocese in the Americas
- Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico

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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2010, 09:57:03 AM »

What is happening to those ex-Roman Catholic priests?  Will or have they been chrismated and re-married in the Orthodox Church? 
Are they the 12 seminarians being re-educated to be Orthodox priests.

The OCA had so many problems and continues to have problems with ex-HOOMies including some now priests in their midst who were never properly educated.
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2010, 06:19:24 PM »

What is happening to those ex-Roman Catholic priests?  Will or have they been chrismated and re-married in the Orthodox Church? 
Are they the 12 seminarians being re-educated to be Orthodox priests.

The OCA had so many problems and continues to have problems with ex-HOOMies including some now priests in their midst who were never properly educated.

Yes, a priorty of the Secretariat is thorough Orthodox education of future clergy in Guatemala. You can view  the fantastic curriculem via the seminary website. 
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« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2011, 12:40:39 AM »

Here's another link: http://www.oodegr.com/english/ierapostoli/xwres/Guatemala/latin_america_orthodoxy.htm

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« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2011, 12:47:16 AM »

"We truly "own" Latin America. "

I like his optimism!  Grin
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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2011, 11:20:43 AM »

"We truly "own" Latin America. "

I like his optimism!  Grin
That is all it is "optimism".  It is wrong to send out press releases about half a million converts without any evidence to back up these claims at all.
What is real is 12 former RCpriests who we hope are re-educated in  Orthodox theology and succeed in their ministry.  But please, it is too soon to send out numbers.
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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2011, 12:18:31 PM »

"We truly "own" Latin America. "

I like his optimism!  Grin
That is all it is "optimism".  It is wrong to send out press releases about half a million converts without any evidence to back up these claims at all.
What is real is 12 former RCpriests who we hope are re-educated in  Orthodox theology and succeed in their ministry.  But please, it is too soon to send out numbers.

Doesn't it seem  that the Church has always been inflating her numbers in the 'New World' as was attested to by last year's scholarly paper on the probably actual statistics?
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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2011, 11:34:40 AM »

"We truly "own" Latin America. "

I like his optimism!  Grin
That is all it is "optimism".  It is wrong to send out press releases about half a million converts without any evidence to back up these claims at all.
What is real is 12 former RC priests who we hope are re-educated in  Orthodox theology and succeed in their ministry.  But please, it is too soon to send out numbers.

Doesn't it seem  that the Church has always been inflating her numbers in the 'New World' as was attested to by last year's scholarly paper on the probably actual statistics?

Was there ever a followup article to this story in any Orthodox news source?  I agree with Podkarpatska about inflated numbers : half a million peope is a lot of people.
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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2011, 12:28:31 PM »

how long would it take to chrismate/baptize that many people and in how many parishes??
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2011, 02:07:06 PM »

how long would it take to chrismate/baptize that many people and in how many parishes??

Good question, but have we seen any evidence that half a million people really did convert?Huh?
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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2011, 02:08:38 PM »

how long would it take to chrismate/baptize that many people and in how many parishes??

Stepping really far out there with this (cause I'm really not sure)... but at the 7th Ecumenical Council didn't they reach some kind of compromise so that iconoclasts (or maybe it was just the clergy?) would be received in their current form, simply because of the sheer numbers of iconoclasts being dealt with compared to the Orthodox/iconodule numbers?
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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2011, 02:11:47 PM »

how long would it take to chrismate/baptize that many people and in how many parishes??

Stepping really far out there with this (cause I'm really not sure)... but at the 7th Ecumenical Council didn't they reach some kind of compromise so that iconoclasts (or maybe it was just the clergy?) would be received in their current form, simply because of the sheer numbers of iconoclasts being dealt with compared to the Orthodox/iconodule numbers?

Isn't this case a litte different since those Indians have never been Orthodox while IIRC iconoclasts had formerly been member of the Church?
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« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2011, 02:15:02 PM »

While I'm happy they got accepted, it's too bad we missed it, because 500,000 people makes for one heck of a Happy Baptism party.  laugh
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« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2011, 02:16:31 PM »

how long would it take to chrismate/baptize that many people and in how many parishes??

Stepping really far out there with this (cause I'm really not sure)... but at the 7th Ecumenical Council didn't they reach some kind of compromise so that iconoclasts (or maybe it was just the clergy?) would be received in their current form, simply because of the sheer numbers of iconoclasts being dealt with compared to the Orthodox/iconodule numbers?

Isn't this case a litte different since those Indians have never been Orthodox while IIRC iconoclasts had formerly been member of the Church?

I'm not sure. I think Iconoclasm started like 50 years before the 7th Ecumenical... I don't recall whether most of the people involved had originally been Orthodox or not.
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2011, 03:05:42 PM »

Sorry to disappoint many of you, but I do not believe that any such 'mass re-baptism' would have occurred or be required canonically. Recent history gives us several examples. The large scale reception of Greek Catholics who converted to Orthodoxy in the 20th century in America, first under the movement led by St. Alexis Toth into the ompohorion of the Patriarch of Moscow (now mostly OCA) as well as those who in 1937-1941 converted to Orthodoxy under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarch in the movement led by Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock), of thrice-blessed memory, (now mostly ACROD) were neither re-baptized, re-chrismated, and in the case of the clergy, none were re-ordained. I know this to be true from my own family history and experience.

(This was also true following the post-war synods in Eastern Europe which 'voluntarily' liquidated the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine and Slovakia and 'restored' Orthodoxy to those regions under Soviet domination. Not that this was a good example, given subsequent history.) 

I suspect that the if the Guatemalans' origin was in fact Roman Catholicism, ekonimia would permit their mass 'reception' into Orthodoxy. Obviously, if they were coming from a non-Trinitarian sect such as Unitarianism or a non-Christian one, such as Mormanism, the rules would be different and baptism and chrismation would be in order.
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« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2011, 10:17:08 AM »

Has anyone seen more information about this from one of the Autocephalous Churches' websites (versus news or other Orthodox sites)?
No I did a google search and there is no evidence that half a million people joined the Orthodox Church.
Just wistful thinking unfortunately.
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« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 11:01:07 AM »

From the website of the Orthodox Metropolis of Mexico - Ecumenical Patriarchate:

http://www.orthodoxiamexico.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=69&lang=en

Quote
A former Roman Catholic priest, responding to a calling from within, to minister to the indigenous Mayan population of the Country, became Orthodox and established a Church, known officially as the “Orthodox Catholic Church of Guatemala”.  Last January, upon the petition of the leader of this group, His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras proceeded to receive them into the canonical fold of the Holy Metropolis.  For over twenty years, the then un-canonical  Fr. Andrew Giron, who is presently a canonically ordained Archimandrite of our Church, ministered and labored unceasingly among the indigenous Mayans living in the mountainous regions of Guatemala and Southern Mexico.  The group has 338 Churches and chapels throughout the region and numbers over 500,000 faithful and catechumens.

The need now is to properly catechize and prepare these hundreds of thousands of faithful for proper reception into the Church, through chrismation and baptism where necessary.   The Archepiscopal Vicar for Guatemala, the Right Rev. Fr.Andrew Vujisic and two other clergymen, one from Colombia and the other from Mexico, will travel each month to the Country, and begin catechizing 500 leaders of the community who in turn will be charged with the responsibility of catechizing the faithful.  While this is a daunting task and will take years to accomplish, Metropolitan Athenagoras’ vision for the future of Orthodoxy in the whole of Latin America is beginning to bear fruit.
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« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2011, 11:53:58 AM »

From the website of the Orthodox Metropolis of Mexico - Ecumenical Patriarchate:

http://www.orthodoxiamexico.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=69&lang=en

Quote
A former Roman Catholic priest, responding to a calling from within, to minister to the indigenous Mayan population of the Country, became Orthodox and established a Church, known officially as the “Orthodox Catholic Church of Guatemala”.  Last January, upon the petition of the leader of this group, His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras proceeded to receive them into the canonical fold of the Holy Metropolis.  For over twenty years, the then un-canonical  Fr. Andrew Giron, who is presently a canonically ordained Archimandrite of our Church, ministered and labored unceasingly among the indigenous Mayans living in the mountainous regions of Guatemala and Southern Mexico.  The group has 338 Churches and chapels throughout the region and numbers over 500,000 faithful and catechumens.

The need now is to properly catechize and prepare these hundreds of thousands of faithful for proper reception into the Church, through chrismation and baptism where necessary.   The Archepiscopal Vicar for Guatemala, the Right Rev. Fr.Andrew Vujisic and two other clergymen, one from Colombia and the other from Mexico, will travel each month to the Country, and begin catechizing 500 leaders of the community who in turn will be charged with the responsibility of catechizing the faithful.  While this is a daunting task and will take years to accomplish, Metropolitan Athenagoras’ vision for the future of Orthodoxy in the whole of Latin America is beginning to bear fruit.

Again there is no evidence that half a milliion people have formally converted to the Orthodox Church.
All vague:
Quote
thousands of Latin Americans are leaving the Catholic Church on a daily basis, seeking other religious experiences. 
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« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2011, 02:15:10 PM »

From the website of the Orthodox Metropolis of Mexico - Ecumenical Patriarchate:

http://www.orthodoxiamexico.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=69&lang=en

Quote
A former Roman Catholic priest, responding to a calling from within, to minister to the indigenous Mayan population of the Country, became Orthodox and established a Church, known officially as the “Orthodox Catholic Church of Guatemala”.  Last January, upon the petition of the leader of this group, His Eminence Metropolitan Athenagoras proceeded to receive them into the canonical fold of the Holy Metropolis.  For over twenty years, the then un-canonical  Fr. Andrew Giron, who is presently a canonically ordained Archimandrite of our Church, ministered and labored unceasingly among the indigenous Mayans living in the mountainous regions of Guatemala and Southern Mexico.  The group has 338 Churches and chapels throughout the region and numbers over 500,000 faithful and catechumens.

The need now is to properly catechize and prepare these hundreds of thousands of faithful for proper reception into the Church, through chrismation and baptism where necessary.   The Archepiscopal Vicar for Guatemala, the Right Rev. Fr.Andrew Vujisic and two other clergymen, one from Colombia and the other from Mexico, will travel each month to the Country, and begin catechizing 500 leaders of the community who in turn will be charged with the responsibility of catechizing the faithful.  While this is a daunting task and will take years to accomplish, Metropolitan Athenagoras’ vision for the future of Orthodoxy in the whole of Latin America is beginning to bear fruit.

looks like this is where the number came from...
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« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2012, 01:28:45 PM »

Something more:
http://www.svots.edu/headlines/seminarian-jesse-brandow-gives-first-hand-account-explosion-orthodox-christianity-guatemal
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« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2012, 01:43:59 PM »

Cool story!

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« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2012, 01:50:45 PM »

Very nice to see a little more information about what is going on, after quite a period of silence.
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« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2012, 01:51:43 PM »

from a missionary there and going back:
https://sojournerinthelandofeternalspring.wordpress.com/
https://sna.etapestry.com/fundraiser/FriendsoftheHogarRafaelAy/oliviamorton/
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« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2012, 02:19:21 PM »

Praise be to God!
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« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2012, 02:25:21 PM »

Glory to God! Awesome! I am so glad to see Orthodoxy growing in Mexico, Central, and South America. It has been making inroads in a big way in Bolivia, too, via the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Bolivia (last I heard, 450+ in attendance weekly in La Paz alone, with many more outside in the more rural regions, some of whom hadn't seen a priest in years before the Copts began their work there in 2000).
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« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2012, 02:33:09 PM »

Glory to God!
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« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2012, 02:41:21 PM »

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These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hate to rain on this parade but that sounds problematic also from the Orthodox point of view. I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities.
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« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2012, 03:44:33 PM »

Same is true of converts in any number...

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These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hate to rain on this parade but that sounds problematic also from the Orthodox point of view. I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities.
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2012, 04:17:27 PM »

Same is true of converts in any number...

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These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hate to rain on this parade but that sounds problematic also from the Orthodox point of view. I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities.

Well not really. The Roman Catholic Church happens to be correct in her opposition to those practices. They would have been kicked out also from the Orthodox Church.

That said, I don't want to judge them in the present situation. The past is past and I'd like to believe that our hierarchs have done their job in scrutinizing Orthodoxy of this movement.
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« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2012, 04:24:22 PM »

I meant to respond to, "I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities."  All converts have peculiarities no matter the number.

Same is true of converts in any number...

Quote
These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hate to rain on this parade but that sounds problematic also from the Orthodox point of view. I hope they have forsaken their Charismatic peculiarities.

Well not really. The Roman Catholic Church happens to be correct in her opposition to those practices. They would have been kicked out also from the Orthodox Church.

That said, I don't want to judge them in the present situation. The past is past and I'd like to believe that our hierarchs have done their job in scrutinizing Orthodoxy of this movement.
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« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2012, 07:00:43 AM »

Since it appeared in Facebook again, is it true or what is it all about?
http://byztex.blogspot.de/2012/08/the-explosive-growth-of-orthodoxy-in.html?spref=fb
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« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2012, 10:10:09 AM »

Since it appeared in Facebook again, is it true or what is it all about?
http://byztex.blogspot.de/2012/08/the-explosive-growth-of-orthodoxy-in.html?spref=fb
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Many of us here and on other discussion groups have been asking the same questions.  All we read about is fantastic numbers of converts with no proof.
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« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2012, 10:35:08 AM »

American Orthodoxy?  Is this a new term?
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« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2012, 01:16:23 PM »

OOs are planning to accept 800k.
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/08/guatemalan-movement-in-dialogue-with-syriac-orthodox-church/

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« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2012, 01:56:27 PM »

Are they currently part of any canonical EO jurisdiction? What would motivate them to change to OO?
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« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2012, 02:00:19 PM »

Are they currently part of any canonical EO jurisdiction? What would motivate them to change to OO?

To be fair to the article linked to, it is no way suggests they discussions were part of them joining the Syriac Orthodox Church, but rather Metropolitan Mor Clement was meeting with some of those in the "movement" about their transition to Orthodoxy.

Quote
The Syriac Orthodox Archdiocese of the Western United States is reporting that its ruling hierarch, Metropolitan Mor Clement (Kaplan) of Burbank, has made a pastoral visit to Guatemala as part of the Syriac Orthodox Church’s dialogue with a Christian movement there wanting to be united with the Orthodox Church.

The movement reportedly has 800,000 followers. In addition to meeting with the leadership of the movement Metropolitan Mor Clement also visited the small Syriac Orthodox community already present in the Guatemalan capital.

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/08/guatemalan-movement-in-dialogue-with-syriac-orthodox-church/
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« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2012, 03:47:27 PM »

There appear to be (at least) two different Guatemalan groups that have joined with or are seeking to join with Orthodox groups. The first, referenced in the Byztex blog, is led by the former Guatemalan senator and representative to the UN, an excommunicated Catholic priest now ordained as an Orthodox archimandrite in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Fr. Andrés Girón. The visit by Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico, as well as the accounts from a few Orthodox missionaries from the US, make clear both the seriousness of Fr. Fr. Girón and his priests, and the fact that everyone involved realizes the very long process that is necessary for bringing the practices of their quite sizeable movement in line with Orthodox norms.

The ultimate source for the info about a Guatemalan group getting in touch with the Syriacs is this Arabic-language article-- http://www.soc-wus.org/2012News/8112012115231.htm . The group in question is distinct from Fr. Girón's group. It is led by a different excommunicated Catholic priest who was re-ordained as a bishop by the "Brazilian Church" in 2007 named Eduardo Aguirre Oestmann. Info about the break of his also-sizeable group from the Catholic Church can be found here- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1914625/posts and here (in Spanish)- http://cesmen.tripod.com/id10.html . On August 7 of this year Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, Syriac bishop of the Western US traveled to Guatemala to meet with the 19 priests of this movement and had theological talks with them. According to the Arabic article, they are very eager to join the Syriac Church.
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« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2012, 04:55:05 PM »

There appear to be (at least) two different Guatemalan groups that have joined with or are seeking to join with Orthodox groups. The first, referenced in the Byztex blog, is led by the former Guatemalan senator and representative to the UN, an excommunicated Catholic priest now ordained as an Orthodox archimandrite in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Fr. Andrés Girón. The visit by Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico, as well as the accounts from a few Orthodox missionaries from the US, make clear both the seriousness of Fr. Fr. Girón and his priests, and the fact that everyone involved realizes the very long process that is necessary for bringing the practices of their quite sizeable movement in line with Orthodox norms.

The ultimate source for the info about a Guatemalan group getting in touch with the Syriacs is this Arabic-language article-- http://www.soc-wus.org/2012News/8112012115231.htm . The group in question is distinct from Fr. Girón's group. It is led by a different excommunicated Catholic priest who was re-ordained as a bishop by the "Brazilian Church" in 2007 named Eduardo Aguirre Oestmann. Info about the break of his also-sizeable group from the Catholic Church can be found here- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1914625/posts and here (in Spanish)- http://cesmen.tripod.com/id10.html . On August 7 of this year Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, Syriac bishop of the Western US traveled to Guatemala to meet with the 19 priests of this movement and had theological talks with them. According to the Arabic article, they are very eager to join the Syriac Church.

I wonder whether, when this finally happens, Metropolitan Athenagoras' see will be moved to Guatemala, given that - by far, the vast portion of his flock (probably nearly all) will be in that country.
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« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2012, 11:43:00 AM »

There are some videos from the visit of Metropolitan Athenagoras to Guatemala:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bawH09Z70uw&feature=plcp - it's nice that they sing "God grant you many years" in Spanish in slavic melody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn4NEg3X81M&feature=channel&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRST1Q5drCo&feature=channel&list=UL
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« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2012, 07:04:44 PM »

We have about 50-75 people from this movement who just made contact with our church, who live down the street! It's gonna be interesting to figure out what is really happening with them. Church politics at its best.
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« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2012, 10:12:38 PM »

Guatemala, officially the Republic of Guatemala (Spanish: República de Guatemala), is a country in Central America bordered by Mexico to the north and west, the Pacific Ocean to the southwest, Belize to the northeast, the Caribbean to the east, and Honduras and El Salvador to the southeast. Its area is 108,890 km2 (42,043 mi2) with an estimated population of 13,276,517.

A representative democracy, its capital is Guatemala de la Asunción, also known as Guatemala City. Guatemala's abundance of biologically significant and unique ecosystems contributes to Mesoamerica's designation as a biodiversity hotspot. The former Mayan civilization was a Mesoamerican civilization, which continued throughout the Post-Classic period until the arrival of the Spanish. The Mayas live in Guatemala, Honduras, Belize, the southern part of Mexico and northern parts of El Salvador.

Guatemala became independent from Spain in 1821, joining the Mexican Empire. After it became an independent country in its own right, it was ruled by a series of dictators, assisted by the United Fruit Company. The late 20th century saw Guatemala embroiled in a 36-year-long civil war. Following the war, Guatemala has witnessed both economic growth and successful democratic elections. In the most recent election, held in 2011, Otto Pérez Molina of the Patriotic Party won the presidency.
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« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2012, 02:13:33 AM »

And your point is...

edit: my bad
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« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2012, 05:14:04 PM »

Please come to hear a presentation by two dynamic priests who are at the center of this phenomenon on Wednesday, November 7, at 7:30 p.m.: "Mission to Guatemala: Receiving the Mayan People into the Orthodox Church." The Very Rev. Archimandrite Dr. Andres Girón de Leon and The Very Rev. John Chakos will be our guest lecturers, sharing first hand their missionary activities among the indigenous people of Guatemala. The presentation will be in the Metropolitan Philip Auditorium of the John G. Rangos Family Building on campus.


http://www.svots.edu/events/save-date-2012-missions-lecture-fr-john-chakos
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« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2012, 06:29:50 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.
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« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2012, 06:55:20 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

Metropolitan Jonah (AFAIK he is not laicised) had nothing in common with those Guatemalans. They were got by Archbishop Athenagoras.
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« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2012, 06:56:36 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

Your posts are so inspiring.  Everytime you write it is like an onion has cut himself and everyone around starts crying. 
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« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2012, 07:15:11 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

Your posts are so inspiring.  Everytime you write it is like an onion has cut himself and everyone around starts crying. 
With a little lemon juice to assuage the hurt.
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« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2012, 07:15:18 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

Metropolitan Jonah (AFAIK he is not laicised) had nothing in common with those Guatemalans. They were got by Archbishop Athenagoras.
There were reports a couple of years ago that the metropolitan sent some clergy to enter negotiations. But, given his record, it wasn't leftist Guatemalan peasants that he was most likely to get involved with. He was seen around Mormon millionaires IIRC.
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« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2012, 07:16:55 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

Your posts are so inspiring.  Everytime you write it is like an onion has cut himself and everyone around starts crying. 
Shouldn't you be saying the pavecernitsa father, around this time?
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« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2012, 07:23:17 PM »

Here, about Fr. Andres de Giron:
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/27/world/guatemalan-priest-s-daring-crusade.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
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« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2012, 07:26:01 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.

Your posts are so inspiring.  Everytime you write it is like an onion has cut himself and everyone around starts crying. 
Shouldn't you be saying the pavecernitsa father, around this time?

Already done, but thanks for the reminder
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« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2012, 10:53:43 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.
parishoners from your favorite parish are busy at work in Guatemala.
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« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2012, 11:42:51 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.
parishoners from your favorite parish are busy at work in Guatemala.
United Fruit Company?
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« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2012, 11:45:48 PM »

Now no wonder the conservative cabal around the former metropolitan Jonah didn't get these Guatemalan peasants. They are part of a leftist movement for land re-distribution etc.
parishoners from your favorite parish are busy at work in Guatemala.
United Fruit Company?
No.  The parish that exists in reality, and not your fervid imagination.
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« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2012, 11:47:15 PM »

I meant, are they agents of United Fruit in Guatemala?
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« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2012, 11:53:26 PM »

I meant, are they agents of United Fruit in Guatemala?

You're assuming that poor Isa knows something about Guatemala.
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« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2012, 01:01:14 PM »

I forgot the maps
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« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2012, 12:18:52 PM »


Thanks for the background info.  I read the whole article.  What I don't understand is why he is shopping around for another church?  His main interest is political justice and social justice so why doesn't he become a layman and start a political reform movement or his own political party. 
I don't like seeing Orthodox priests involved in politics.  So let him become a layman.
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« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2012, 12:36:29 PM »

Hmm.. just read the article.

If that is the case I am afraid this initiative will have the same destiny many other, smaller ones in Latin America had: decline into some sort of popular folk syncretism.

Basically this is the routine:

Liberal Roman Priest tries for years to change the Roman Church into an agent of social change. Some are more political, others work more on the cultural side, but they feel there is a "social issue" and the Vatican should be more political (aka leftist). Meeting with stubborn resistance along the years they either leave or are expelled. Some deffect to political movements, others seek churches which they assume to have weaker leadership, which they hope to transform into the real church. When this church is the Orthodox church they eventually find out that it can resist their plans pretty well, thank you. Initially, Orthodox bishops give them support, enchanted by their often charismatic personalities and superficial appearance of achievers, the many followers they bring with them, unaware of the political nature of the group. The leader of the group insists in mixing local folk rites and beliefs with Orthodox rites using alleged similar "pastoral" measures in the 1st millenium. Eventually, the bishop notices that it is a man who wants to use the Church to advance his personal political agenda and not to serve it and discretly retrieves support, even to not fall in discredit with the other bishops. Unsupported institutionally and financially, they either fade away immersed in some sort of syncretism or move to the next "church", often some obscure schismatic group in a far away country, again seeking leadership who will not disturb them this side of the world. Ordained priests left behind are financially and institutionally relegated to ostracism, dying in poverty, sorrow and solitude. The initiator of the movement has either died or moved on, and the Orthodox bishops avoiding them to not be associated with that now stigmatized group, waiting and hoping for the silent demise.

Because this group is so huge, I hope that at least some hundreds truly convert to Orthodoxy and will stay behind as the rest simply leaves.

In fact, I wish a miracle happened and a true conversion has happened. But I saw it too many times to believe it. The worst that could happen is that the sheer size of the group had an active corrupting impact in the Church with their radical leftist leanings. All that I do not want to see in the Orthodox Church is the disgrace that Liberation Theology caused in the Roman Church.
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« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2012, 12:52:27 PM »

I meant, are they agents of United Fruit in Guatemala?

You're assuming that poor Isa knows something about Guatemala.
and you assUme I don't.
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« Reply #86 on: October 25, 2012, 12:55:10 PM »

I meant, are they agents of United Fruit in Guatemala?
No.  The Orthodox Church, at and through the Hogar Raphael Orphanage.
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« Reply #87 on: October 25, 2012, 03:18:34 PM »

Quote
has happened. But I saw it too many times to believe it. The worst that could happen is that the sheer size of the group had an active corrupting impact in the Church with their radical leftist leanings. All that I do not want to see in the Orthodox Church is the disgrace that Liberation Theology caused in the Roman Church.
Your class bias is showing mister. But, in a way, you are in the wrong place if you think the orthodox have anything compared to the organized reaction to leftist politics the upper class Catholics in Latin America or USA have. Nada, I'll tell you. So it is a smart move for those Mayans. it probably gives them more wiggle room as we are not bound by Leo the thirteen's dogmatic teachings about "class harmony' and all that reactionary nonsense.
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« Reply #88 on: October 25, 2012, 03:22:05 PM »

You know true Christians first kill their kings etc and then might put them up in the calendar if they were somehow churchy.
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« Reply #89 on: October 25, 2012, 03:32:47 PM »

Augustin717 has a point.... at least since Archbishop Macarios III of Cyprus, the Greek Orthodox have a pretty good track-record of supporting anti-colonial struggles. One might be able to draw parallels between these Mayans and the groups in Kenya who found Orthodoxy out of a desire to find an authentic Christianity with no colonialist associations (well, at least in their region...). If Orthodoxy and the Mau Mau can work well together, there's pretty good precedent for Orthodox cooperation with indigenous and land reform movements in Latin America.
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« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2012, 03:57:38 PM »

Augustin717 has a point.... at least since Archbishop Macarios III of Cyprus, the Greek Orthodox have a pretty good track-record of supporting anti-colonial struggles. One might be able to draw parallels between these Mayans and the groups in Kenya who found Orthodoxy out of a desire to find an authentic Christianity with no colonialist associations (well, at least in their region...). If Orthodoxy and the Mau Mau can work well together, there's pretty good precedent for Orthodox cooperation with indigenous and land reform movements in Latin America.

Indeed, we have to look at these issues not just from our typical American myopia.
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« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2012, 04:03:05 PM »

By class bias, you mean my upbringing in a low-to-middle class district over an hour and a half from the wealthy districts of Rio de Janeiro people see in movies? Ah, you're talking about some of the privileges I had growning up such as walking back from school as a child in streets flooded with sewer water during summer floods, having a relative murdered for not accepting to condone with with traffic of goods? Maybe "class" is a family thing. Which side of the family would it be? My mother's side of the family who fled the even poorer Northeast of the country to Rio, or my father's side who literaly were peasants in the Northern country-side of Portugal?

Sure my childhood and youth were not like of the children in the slums, but you bet it was no California.

Marxist assumptions fail again. People are individuals, not hypostasis of their classes. And you know what? The main places where I have seen liberal ideas thrive the most were among the rich elite of Rio, the same who brought the commerce of cocaine to the city in the 70s and 80s to supply their parties, thus being partially responsible for the takeover of the city by drug dealers sinking it into a silent civil war. The top wealthiest in the word always support liberal campaigns and institutions. They sure know what they are doing and which initiatives favour them in the end of the day.


Quote
has happened. But I saw it too many times to believe it. The worst that could happen is that the sheer size of the group had an active corrupting impact in the Church with their radical leftist leanings. All that I do not want to see in the Orthodox Church is the disgrace that Liberation Theology caused in the Roman Church.
Your class bias is showing mister. But, in a way, you are in the wrong place if you think the orthodox have anything compared to the organized reaction to leftist politics the upper class Catholics in Latin America or USA have. Nada, I'll tell you. So it is a smart move for those Mayans. it probably gives them more wiggle room as we are not bound by Leo the thirteen's dogmatic teachings about "class harmony' and all that reactionary nonsense.
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« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2012, 04:49:17 PM »

People are individuals, not hypostasis of their classes.

I shall have to remember that. Well put.
And you know what? The main places where I have seen liberal ideas thrive the most were among the rich elite of Rio, the same who brought the commerce of cocaine to the city in the 70s and 80s to supply their parties, thus being partially responsible for the takeover of the city by drug dealers sinking it into a silent civil war. The top wealthiest in the word always support liberal campaigns and institutions. They sure know what they are doing and which initiatives favour them in the end of the day.
True Liberalism means isolation from the dire consequences of libertine actions.
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« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2012, 04:51:44 PM »

Just for you, Father.
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« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2012, 05:49:53 PM »

^ I'm assuming you know about all of these areas? 

p.s., could you dig up a map of where these churches that "jumped ship" came from?  What areas?  Or what demographics? 

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« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2012, 06:03:36 PM »

^ I'm assuming you know about all of these areas? 

p.s., could you dig up a map of where these churches that "jumped ship" came from?  What areas?  Or what demographics? 



I don't know for sure, but that last map sure looks like the map on the back cover pages of Game of Thrones....... just sayin....
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« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2012, 06:36:26 PM »

^ I'm assuming you know about all of these areas? 

p.s., could you dig up a map of where these churches that "jumped ship" came from?  What areas?  Or what demographics? 

This might not matter as much as it seems. The majority of Guatemalans are ethnically mixed (what others would probably call mestizo, though there they're called "Ladino", not to be confused with the Judaeo-Spanish language commonly called that), regardless of what language they speak (though the majority of Ladinos speak Spanish as a mother tongue, just like in Mexico where most people are mestizo but only speak Spanish). I think that map might be a little bit deceiving because you'd think from the size of the territory, for instance, that Mam people would be more than about 8% of the population (about 650,000 if I remember correctly; I studied Mam language as an undergraduate...it's pretty wild; gave me a big headache). Q'eqchi', believe it or not, has even fewer speakers in Guatemala proper (400K, but total in all countries is several thousand more), despite being spread out over a much larger area, if you believe the map.

So chances are that the people who jumped ship are probably Spanish-speakers and very likely Ladino identifying, no matter where they are. And, if my informal survey of the three little old Guatemalan ladies I used to live next to in California is anything to go by, even people who are very obviously less European than Indigenous are unlikely to have 'asserting indigenous cultural identity/bucking colonialism' high on the list of reasons for leaving one church for another, though I don't doubt that this does happen. Many years ago, I had a class with a professor who had worked in Guatemala in the 1970s, doing language documentation work among one of the highland Mayan peoples (I don't remember which one), and he said that the people he talked to had great respect for the Mormon missionaries that would frequently visit their villages. My professor was confused until one of the Mayans told him "the missionaries are the only ones who actually learn our language and can speak it. Everybody else talks to us in Spanish, and we don't like that."

A more colonially-minded/"white" (ah, heck, why all the euphemisms!) religion than Mormonism, I can't imagine...what with all the "Adam and Eve lived in Missouri", "upstate New York is holy ground", and other odd ideas in it...it's very far from being an ideal vehicle for asserting or preserving native Mayan culture, and yet here was a place and time when Mayans found it very attractive, because the missionaries who were sent there met them on their own terms. Something to think about, perhaps, in our rush to believe the best of these Orthodox conversions stories.
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« Reply #97 on: October 25, 2012, 11:44:58 PM »


I see nothing but a right angle.  It is late, so I recognize this could be a joke of which I am not aware
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« Reply #98 on: October 25, 2012, 11:58:02 PM »

You know true Christians first kill their kings etc and then might put them up in the calendar if they were somehow churchy.

I like beef hotdogs.  But only if I am aristocratically starving and they are slow-cooked, really. 
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« Reply #99 on: October 25, 2012, 11:59:22 PM »

By class bias, you mean my upbringing in a low-to-middle class district over an hour and a half from the wealthy districts of Rio de Janeiro people see in movies? Ah, you're talking about some of the privileges I had growning up such as walking back from school as a child in streets flooded with sewer water during summer floods, having a relative murdered for not accepting to condone with with traffic of goods? Maybe "class" is a family thing. Which side of the family would it be? My mother's side of the family who fled the even poorer Northeast of the country to Rio, or my father's side who literaly were peasants in the Northern country-side of Portugal?

Sure my childhood and youth were not like of the children in the slums, but you bet it was no California.

Marxist assumptions fail again. People are individuals, not hypostasis of their classes. And you know what? The main places where I have seen liberal ideas thrive the most were among the rich elite of Rio, the same who brought the commerce of cocaine to the city in the 70s and 80s to supply their parties, thus being partially responsible for the takeover of the city by drug dealers sinking it into a silent civil war. The top wealthiest in the word always support liberal campaigns and institutions. They sure know what they are doing and which initiatives favour them in the end of the day.


Quote
has happened. But I saw it too many times to believe it. The worst that could happen is that the sheer size of the group had an active corrupting impact in the Church with their radical leftist leanings. All that I do not want to see in the Orthodox Church is the disgrace that Liberation Theology caused in the Roman Church.
Your class bias is showing mister. But, in a way, you are in the wrong place if you think the orthodox have anything compared to the organized reaction to leftist politics the upper class Catholics in Latin America or USA have. Nada, I'll tell you. So it is a smart move for those Mayans. it probably gives them more wiggle room as we are not bound by Leo the thirteen's dogmatic teachings about "class harmony' and all that reactionary nonsense.

Thank you for sharing this.  I know that you have a fine mind and wonder if you waste your time posting such things.  You aren't wasting your time.
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« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2012, 12:00:22 AM »

^ I'm assuming you know about all of these areas? 

p.s., could you dig up a map of where these churches that "jumped ship" came from?  What areas?  Or what demographics? 



I don't know for sure, but that last map sure looks like the map on the back cover pages of Game of Thrones....... just sayin....

I don't know what this means, but if it means that it looks like a colorful right angle, then I agree
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« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2012, 12:03:41 AM »

Augustin717 has a point.... at least since Archbishop Macarios III of Cyprus, the Greek Orthodox have a pretty good track-record of supporting anti-colonial struggles. One might be able to draw parallels between these Mayans and the groups in Kenya who found Orthodoxy out of a desire to find an authentic Christianity with no colonialist associations (well, at least in their region...). If Orthodoxy and the Mau Mau can work well together, there's pretty good precedent for Orthodox cooperation with indigenous and land reform movements in Latin America.

Indeed, we have to look at these issues not just from our typical American myopia.

I was also thinking that we USA types don't appreciate that not only we, but most of the rest of the Western hemisphere calls us first and foremost "Americans," even though it applies equally to them as well.  
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« Reply #102 on: October 26, 2012, 08:21:30 AM »

Thank you for sharing this.  I know that you have a fine mind and wonder if you waste your time posting such things.  You aren't wasting your time.

Thank you, father.
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« Reply #103 on: November 07, 2012, 05:02:08 PM »

The HCHC community will observe Missions Week November 5-9, 2012. All are invited to attend the EFOM Missions Lecture on Thursday, November 8th at 7:00 p.m. in the Reading Room. The lecture, entitled Mission to Guatamala: Receiving the Mayan People Into the Orthodox Church, will be streamed live on the Internet as well as recorded for our video archives. Please return to this page to access the live stream on the day of the event.

http://www.hchc.edu/holycross/about/news/news_releases/missions_week.html
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« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2012, 03:41:34 PM »

So there is no proof that "half a million" people have been chrismated and received into the Orthodox Church is there?
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« Reply #105 on: November 10, 2012, 06:00:24 PM »

According to wikipedia, about 3 percent of Guatemala is Orthodox. Glory to thee of Lord! Gloria a Ti Senor!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Guatemala#Orthodox_Catholic
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« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2012, 09:28:15 PM »

So there is no proof that "half a million" people have been chrismated and received into the Orthodox Church is there?

That's the weird part.  Some were received through baptism, & chrismation.  Others just accepted orthodoxy & are in the process of being accepted through sacramental means
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« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2012, 02:42:47 PM »

According to wikipedia, about 3 percent of Guatemala is Orthodox. Glory to thee of Lord! Gloria a Ti Senor!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Guatemala#Orthodox_Catholic

I like this comment in the "Talk" section:
Quote
Issues with religion statsThe state department document which is cited as a reference for adherence statistics is at odds with the numbers cited in the text. In particular it does not include the 3% Orthodox number, which by my calculation has been back-figured from the claim of 520K converts. As far as I am aware this is a church-reported number and is thus not comparable with other estimates.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Guatemala

So there is no proof of half a million converts.
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« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2012, 05:15:41 AM »

yt presentation recorded from the HC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cn36X4JUT4w
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« Reply #109 on: March 25, 2014, 11:16:34 PM »

Some update:
http://www.mayanorthodoxy.com/
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Just trying to learn something.


« Reply #110 on: March 26, 2014, 01:37:19 PM »


Now that a few years have passed and there has been time to straighten up the records, it seems that the actual number of converts was about 40,000.  (Unless a tremendous number of people left since the initial influx.)

From the link:

"How many Mayan Orthodox people are there? How many villages and parishes?

People, villages, parishes: all three are hard to quantify in a changing and mostly rural church. In fact, these are hard to quantify in any church in the world, even developed areas like the United States, because methodical population studies are rare, and reported numbers are often merely estimates. This is the case in Guatemala and Mexico, where the reported number of people has fluctuated from one extreme to another. As of 2014, the best estimate from the missionaries involved in the field is 40,000 people who live in about 300 villages. Not every village has a church, so the total number of parishes is around 100....
"
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