Topic: OO/EO and EO/OO "transfers"

[Michał]

To OOs: Have you got any ex-EOs in your parish?

To EOs: Have you got any ex-OOs in your parish?

If yes, what were the reasons of conversion of these people? Lack of any parish of their own Church Communion in the area, or maybe unwillingness to attend a particular parish of their own Church Communion out of some ethnic or political animosities?

[Iconodule]

There is a Copt who is a convert to EO who posts occasionally on Monachos.net. He still lives in Egypt- his reason for conversion was doctrinal.

[Salpy]

I think he is talking about within your own parish. 

Within my parish we have EO's who sometimes attend and commune.  There's no conversion, though, because the Armenians will commune EO's without any conversion process.  The reasons for them coming to my parish range from it being close by, to them having friends at our church. 

[Michał]

He still lives in Egypt- his reason for conversion was doctrinal.

Right! I forgot about this possibility.

[Salpy]

OK, so it's not just within our parish, but people we know in general, including online.  In that case, I think here at OCnet we have a couple of former OO's who converted to the EO Church.  One would be Ishak:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9982.msg311160.html#msg311160

I think he made the conversion for doctrinal reasons:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23189.msg354227.html#msg354227

[Michał]

OK, so it's not just within our parish, but people we know in general, including online.

Right, I would like to find out how widespread the phenomenon is so any data will be helpful.

[Iconodule]

OK, so it's not just within our parish, but people we know in general, including online.  In that case, I think here at OCnet we have a couple of former OO's who converted to the EO Church.  One would be Ishak:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9982.msg311160.html#msg311160

I think he made the conversion for doctrinal reasons:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23189.msg354227.html#msg354227

That Ishaq guy has to be some kind of joker... Maybe it's Rafa99 pulling everyone's leg?

[Salpy]

I don't think he's Rafa, as Rafa has always been very straightforward.  I agree, however, that he doesn't really represent most EO's.

[ialmisry]

We have some Syriac and an Armenian.  The Syriacs went into submission to Vatican, and their children became disaffiliated. The children came back to Orthodoxy (and Christianity) via the EO and brought the parents back.  The Armenian's family became diaffiliated, and the son Protestant.  He married a nice Catholic Polish girl who had become Protestant.  They became Orthodox via the EO, brought his parents back via the EO, but then they returned to the Armenian OO Church.  I say return only because they settled into it as parish, but they come often to our EO parish and commune with no problem.  The Syriac matriarch was received by confession, IIRC, the daugher (who had been baptized under the Vatican's authority) by chrismation.  My son's godmother was OO Coptic and now EO: her family went EO in the aftermath of the arrest of HH Holiness Pope Shenoudah in 1982, and the wrangling that went on here (USA) on what to do about it.

I'm not sure how "ex" they are, as they stil retain their ethnicity.  Which is as it should be.

[Father Peter]

I know of isolated Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks who commune in OO churches, not as a matter of conversion, but as a matter of finding common life and fellowship.

Father Peter

[deusveritasest]

To OOs: Have you got any ex-EOs in your parish?

I do not believe I have yet seen any former EO in OO churches, besides myself that is.

To EOs: Have you got any ex-OOs in your parish?

When I was going to EO churches, I encountered a much greater amount of former OOs attending those churches, however I don't really know what was the reason for most of them. One thing I know, however, is that the local Greek Metropolis simply allows OO to take Communion in their churches with no form of initiation.

[Father Peter]

A deceased Reader in my congregation, before I was ordained a priest, was from an EO convert background.

I had an EO convert in the Russian Church who worshipped and communed in my congregation for about 10 years before she recently moved away.

Father Peter

[Irish Hermit]

Dear Father Peter,

You have an Antiochian priest in your diocese in Gt Britain who made the transition from the EO Antiochian Orthodox Church to the Coptic Orthodox Church.  Without of course discussing personal details, could you say how that was managed by the Antiochian bishop and the Coptic bishop.  Was his EO ordination accepted?  Was he ordained by the Coptic bishop?

[Salpy]

I think what you are thinking of was discussed and explained in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2304.msg25416.html#msg25416

[Irish Hermit]

I think what you are thinking of was discussed and explained in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2304.msg25416.html#msg25416

Thanks, Salpy, but the message, while helpful to a certain extent, does not touch on the crucial points of this EO/OO transfer.

The priest was given a Canonical Release by the Antiochian Bishop Gabriel.

Now Canonical Releases are required to state to what bishop and to what diocese the priest is being released.    Did Bishop Gabriel state he was releasing his priest to the Coptic diocese?

In the topsy turvy world of the 20th century sometimes Canonical Releases are given releasing a priest into thin air.....  it was done sometimes so that priests could transfer into or out of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  But this release into the wild blue yonder is seen as improper.

There is no mention in the referenced post as to the manner of the priest's reception into the Coptic diocese.  Was his EO ordination accepted or was he ordained by the Coptic bishop receiving him?

[Father Peter]

The priest was received into the Coptic Orthodox Church by being advanced to the rank of hegoumen.

His baptism, chrismation and ordination were accepted, and he was not re-ordained. He was advanced in rank so that his priesthood was properly embraced by the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Father Peter

[Irish Hermit]

The priest was received into the Coptic Orthodox Church by being advanced to the rank of hegoumen.

His baptism, chrismation and ordination were accepted, and he was not re-ordained. He was advanced in rank so that his priesthood was properly embraced by the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Very pleasant to hear that and it obviously says some serious things about the Coptic approach to EO Mysteries.  Thank you for your response.

Now may I ask the reverse question - about OO to EO transfers of priests.   I am not aware of any myself but maybe you have heard of them occurring.  Do you know how it was handled?

-oOo-

PS:  I don't quite understand the connection between the priesthood and the rank of igumen (abbot.) An unpriested monk may be an igumen among the Eastern Orthodox.  Is that not the case for the Oriental Orthodox? Must an igumen be a priest?

[Robert W]

I know of isolated Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks who commune in OO churches, not as a matter of conversion, but as a matter of finding common life and fellowship.

There are a handful of Ethiopians who regularly attend my Church. I don't know if they have formally converted or anything. Some of them are only studying in Finland and intend to return.

[Father Peter]

In the Coptic Orthodox Church the rank of hegoumen is given to senior priests.

Father Peter

[Orthodox11]

Here it is quite common for Eritreans to baptise and raise their kids in the Greek Archdiocese.

[dhinuus]

When I am travelling, and  in the US, and in locations without oriental orthodox churches, the Greek Churches has welcomed me and has served me communion. In Antiochian jurisdiction in America I have been refused communion. I cannot generalize as I have asked for communion and been refused in only one location. I acutally found it very surprising, given the fact that the Syriac Orthodox Church to which I belong to has a inter-communion agreement with only one Byzantine Orthodox jurisdiction and that is the Rum Orthodox Church of Antioch. When told about this, the priest told me that the agreement only applies in the middle east and is not applicable in the self ruled archdiocese. The Greek Church in America has never raised any objection and every where I have gone, I see Copts and Ethiopians also communing freely in Greek Churches.

Mathew G M

[minasoliman]

When I am travelling, and  in the US, and in locations without oriental orthodox churches, the Greek Churches has welcomed me and has served me communion. In Antiochian jurisdiction in America I have been refused communion. I cannot generalize as I have asked for communion and been refused in only one location. I acutally found it very surprising, given the fact that the Syriac Orthodox Church to which I belong to has a inter-communion agreement with only one Byzantine Orthodox jurisdiction and that is the Rum Orthodox Church of Antioch. When told about this, the priest told me that the agreement only applies in the middle east and is not applicable in the self ruled archdiocese. The Greek Church in America has never raised any objection and every where I have gone, I see Copts and Ethiopians also communing freely in Greek Churches.

Mathew G M

When I asked my bishop if I can commune to the Antiochian Church 50 miles away, he told me to drive the extra 40 miles to the nearest Coptic Church.  The Antiochian Church told me they have no problem with communing me, but that the Coptic bishops generally don't approve unless I'm really far away (90 miles I guess wasn't far enough for my bishop).

[Melodist]

In the parish that I attend, there is an Eritrean woman and an Egyptian couple that I know of. I don't know the details of them being received into the parish so I can't say if there was ever an actual conversion, not to mention there is an EO Patriarch of Alexandria with jurisdiction over all the EO churches in Africa.

[Melodist]

And I know someone is from Ethiopia who was just recently baptised and decided to be baptised in a Coptic church because he could not tell any real difference in the faith between the EO and OO and had family baptised Coptic.

[mike]

And I know someone is from Ethiopia who was just recently baptised and decided to be baptised in a Coptic church because he could not tell any real difference in the faith between the EO and OO and had family baptised Coptic.

But both Ethiopians and Copts are OO.

[Melodist]

And I know someone is from Ethiopia who was just recently baptised and decided to be baptised in a Coptic church because he could not tell any real difference in the faith between the EO and OO and had family baptised Coptic.

But both Ethiopians and Copts are OO.

But there is an EO Patriach of Alexandria and an EO bishop of Aksum. My point was simply that I don't know the specific details of where anyone came from or the details surrounding how they were brought into the parish.

Chances are that they probably did come from an OO background, which is why I mentioned it, but I don't know all the details about how they were received.

[Orthodox11]

When I asked my bishop if I can commune to the Antiochian Church 50 miles away, he told me to drive the extra 40 miles to the nearest Coptic Church.  The Antiochian Church told me they have no problem with communing me, but that the Coptic bishops generally don't approve unless I'm really far away (90 miles I guess wasn't far enough for my bishop).

Anba David?

[minasoliman]

When I asked my bishop if I can commune to the Antiochian Church 50 miles away, he told me to drive the extra 40 miles to the nearest Coptic Church.  The Antiochian Church told me they have no problem with communing me, but that the Coptic bishops generally don't approve unless I'm really far away (90 miles I guess wasn't far enough for my bishop).

Anba David?

Yes

[Alveus Lacuna]

There are many Eritrean and Ethiopians at my Serbian parish, but I don't know if they have been received into our church officially or simply come to pray. I honestly haven't noticed if any of them take communion, not because I'm ultra-pious and too worried with my own sins, but rather I just haven't really thought about it during communion time. As I understand it though most Ethiopians almost never commune anyway, so I'm not sure it makes a difference.

The situation is also odd because there is an Ethiopian Orthodox church in Kansas City. I think there might have been some break over the Immaculate Conception controversy in that church in recent years. Also, I know many of these immigrants live in walking distance of our church. The Serbs and Ethiopians in Kansas City are on very good terms, as the old St. George's Serbian Orthodox Church property was sold to the Ethiopian congregation. As I understand it, they actually kept the Serbian iconostasis, and so there sits an icon of St. Savvas in an Ethiopian Church. This kind of stuff could really only happen in the United States, which is like a religious bazaar.

Also, as an aside, I know for certain there is an icon of one Oriental Orthodox saint in our nave. I'm not sure I agree with it, but then again I'm a catechumen, so I keep my mouth shut. Whoever the saint is, I think he is one of the most popular of the Ethiopian saints. There is a bird drinking his tear, if that helps with identification.

[Salpy]

I think he's Gebre Menfes Kidus:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21160.0.html

Even though he's not an EO saint, I don't think there is anything about his life that would be a problem for the EO's.

There was a thread about how sometimes EO's and OO's will venerate each other's saints, although I think it is a little more common to see OO's venerate EO saints.  I mentioned in that thread how St. Nektarios is extremely popular among the Armenians:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10408.0.html

Icons of OO saints in an EO church was also discussed in the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9104.0.html


In another thread you briefly mentioned that some other Ethiopian customs had made their way into your church.  I think that is so cool!

[Michał]

Alveus Lacuna, is this your church's website: http://www.stmaryofegypt.net?

[Alpo]

Alveus Lacuna,

do you know how OOs are received in the Serbian Church if they decide to convert? I've understanded that the Serbian policy is to baptize just about every convert but I'm wondering whether the practise is more lenient in the case of OOs.

[Irish Hermit]

Alveus Lacuna,

do you know how OOs are received in the Serbian Church if they decide to convert? I've understanded that the Serbian policy is to baptize just about every convert but I'm wondering whether the practise is more lenient in the case of OOs.

I can answer this definitively, with the instructions issued by one of the Serbian Bishops, Bishop Luka of Paris and Western Europe who was previously our bishop for Australia and New Zealand.   Some of our Serbian clergy were  communing Oriental Orthodox since they had no local parishes.   Bishop Luka ordered this to cease and to receive people form the non-Chalcedonian Churches by Chrismation.  However the relationship remained warm and cordial and he authorised visiting OO priests to be allowed the use of Serbian churches for their Liturgies.

The same position is adhered to by the Romanian parishes in this country - no inter communion, reception by Chrismation, lending Romanian churches to OO clergy where needed.

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

As I understand it though most Ethiopians almost never commune anyway, so I'm not sure it makes a difference.

Just like the Serbs!

[CRCulver]

There are a handful of Ethiopians who regularly attend my Church. I don't know if they have formally converted or anything. Some of them are only studying in Finland and intend to return.

At Uspensky Cathedral, there are now so many Ethiopians that they get their own OO service in the crypt instead of attending the EO service upstairs.

[Feanor]

There are Copts (and Maronites, and Melkites) at my Antiochian parish who partake of the Eucharist despite having not been received into the Eastern Orthodox Church via Chrismation. No one seems to care.

[Papist]

Alveus Lacuna,

do you know how OOs are received in the Serbian Church if they decide to convert? I've understanded that the Serbian policy is to baptize just about every convert but I'm wondering whether the practise is more lenient in the case of OOs.

I can answer this definitively, with the instructions issued by one of the Serbian Bishops, Bishop Luka of Paris and Western Europe who was previously our bishop for Australia and New Zealand.   Some of our Serbian clergy were  communing Oriental Orthodox since they had no local parishes.   Bishop Luka ordered this to cease and to receive people form the non-Chalcedonian Churches by Chrismation.  However the relationship remained warm and cordial and he authorised visiting OO priests to be allowed the use of Serbian churches for their Liturgies.

The same position is adhered to by the Romanian parishes in this country - no inter communion, reception by Chrismation, lending Romanian churches to OO clergy where needed.

Father,
How does the Russian Church to which you belong deal with this situation?

[Papist]

There are Copts (and Maronites, and Melkites) at my Antiochian parish who partake of the Eucharist despite having not been received into the Eastern Orthodox Church via Chrismation. No one seems to care.

What is your jurisdiction?

[Alpo]

There are a handful of Ethiopians who regularly attend my Church. I don't know if they have formally converted or anything. Some of them are only studying in Finland and intend to return.

At Uspensky Cathedral, there are now so many Ethiopians that they get their own OO service in the crypt instead of attending the EO service upstairs.

How cool is that! I didn't know that there are OO services in Finland. Now I have another reason to make a little pilgrimage to Helsinki...

[deusveritasest]

There are Copts (and Maronites, and Melkites) at my Antiochian parish who partake of the Eucharist despite having not been received into the Eastern Orthodox Church via Chrismation. No one seems to care.

 

[deusveritasest]

There are Copts (and Maronites, and Melkites) at my Antiochian parish who partake of the Eucharist despite having not been received into the Eastern Orthodox Church via Chrismation. No one seems to care.

What is your jurisdiction?

I think it's safe to assume that it's the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America.

[ialmisry]

Alveus Lacuna,

do you know how OOs are received in the Serbian Church if they decide to convert? I've understanded that the Serbian policy is to baptize just about every convert but I'm wondering whether the practise is more lenient in the case of OOs.

I can answer this definitively, with the instructions issued by one of the Serbian Bishops, Bishop Luka of Paris and Western Europe who was previously our bishop for Australia and New Zealand.   Some of our Serbian clergy were  communing Oriental Orthodox since they had no local parishes.   Bishop Luka ordered this to cease and to receive people form the non-Chalcedonian Churches by Chrismation.  However the relationship remained warm and cordial and he authorised visiting OO priests to be allowed the use of Serbian churches for their Liturgies.

The same position is adhered to by the Romanian parishes in this country - no inter communion, reception by Chrismation, lending Romanian churches to OO clergy where needed.

Father, does his grace have reception by baptism for others?

Somewhere here we had a thread from a Serb about some Ethiopias (or was it Eriterans?) who were received by chrismation.  The Serb was excited because usually at their Church reception was by baptism.

[Papist]

There are Copts (and Maronites, and Melkites) at my Antiochian parish who partake of the Eucharist despite having not been received into the Eastern Orthodox Church via Chrismation. No one seems to care.

What is your jurisdiction?

I think it's safe to assume that it's the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America.

Haha. Thanks. I missed that.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Alveus Lacuna, is this your church's website: http://www.stmaryofegypt.net?

Yes.

[Salpy]

Looking at the photo gallery, it seems to be an absolutely beautiful church!  It also seems you have a number of clergy as well as a nearby community of nuns.  Is that correct?  If that is the case, you are very blessed.