Author Topic: Formula of Reunion of 433  (Read 6593 times)

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Offline deusveritasest

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Formula of Reunion of 433
« on: June 12, 2010, 07:02:25 PM »
I'm curious to hear OO perspectives on Cyril's Formula of Reunion with John of Antioch. Most EO seem to hold it in high veneration, being an approved document of the Council of Chalcedon. However, I do not believe that it has such official status in the OO Tradition, and that Cyril received criticism for it from less "moderate" believers in the Alexandrian Christology. Also, I think I remember it once referred to on this site as a "mistake". Could people here share their perspectives on it?
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 10:49:12 PM »
For reference's sake, here is the Formula of Union:

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We confess, then, our lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God perfect God and perfect man of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the virgin, according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy virgin to be the mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her. As to the evangelical and apostolic expressions about the Lord, we know that theologians treat some in common as of one person and distinguish others as of two natures, and interpret the god-befitting ones in connection with the godhead of Christ and the lowly ones with his humanity.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2010, 11:13:39 PM »
Are you saying that there is precedent for Orientals reuniting with orthodoxy? This would be great! it could be a foundation for a much-needed reunion!!!

Offline Salpy

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 12:24:43 AM »
Are you saying that there is precedent for Orientals reuniting with orthodoxy? This would be great! it could be a foundation for a much-needed reunion!!!

We never departed from orthodoxy.   :)

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 12:45:37 AM »
You know what I mean.  ::) :D

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 06:47:22 PM »
Are you saying that there is precedent for Orientals reuniting with orthodoxy? This would be great! it could be a foundation for a much-needed reunion!!!

Huh?

What does that have to do with EO and OO?
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 06:53:25 PM »
You know what I mean.  ::) :D

If you're saying that St. Cyril was reuniting with Orthodoxy, you have it backwards.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 09:32:05 PM »
You know what I mean.  ::) :D

If you're saying that St. Cyril was reuniting with Orthodoxy, you have it backwards.

OK, it's your ball.

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2010, 01:08:52 PM »
Clearly the Formula of Reunion, like the Henotikon, could not be a lasting basis for reunion since it was understood as meaning something different by the various parties. The letter of Ibas to Maris the Persian shows that those in his circle understood it as meaning that St Cyril had abandoned his Christology and accepted that of Theodore of Mopsuestia!

St Cyril hoped it meant that the Easterners were Orthodox enough, but came to realise that many of them did not accept an Orthodox Christology at all. Theodoret and Ibas were both loyal followers of Theodore after all, and never rejected his teachings, even after Chalcedon.

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Offline OtherguyLB

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 10:59:02 AM »
I'm curious to hear OO perspectives on Cyril's Formula of Reunion with John of Antioch. Most EO seem to hold it in high veneration, being an approved document of the Council of Chalcedon. However, I do not believe that it has such official status in the OO Tradition, and that Cyril received criticism for it from less "moderate" believers in the Alexandrian Christology. Also, I think I remember it once referred to on this site as a "mistake". Could people here share their perspectives on it?

The last part of the reunion --- "As to the evangelical and apostolic expressions about the Lord, we know that theologians treat some in common as of one person and distinguish others as of two natures, and interpret the god-befitting ones in connection with the godhead of Christ and the lowly ones with his humanity."

is actually clearly softening the fourth anathema of St. Cyril, which says: "No one should apply evangelical or apostolic statements about the Lord to his humanity alone."

John of Antioch at first hated St. Cyril during the council of Ephesus, for not waiting for him and then creating(which was people's fault) some kind of bloodshed in the city. Then after some negotiations, this creed really seems softening from both sides - John accepting the word "theotokos" and St. Cyril softening some(or only one) of his anathemas.




Offline CoptoGeek

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2011, 09:08:15 AM »
deusveritasest, who criticized it from the Alexandrian side?  I thought "...of two natures" was perfectly acceptable and was even used by St. Dioscoros at Chalcedon.  Was it criticized for its actual content or for the apparent compromise it created with Antiochians who still held a Theodoran Christology? 
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 09:30:22 PM »
I'm curious to hear OO perspectives on Cyril's Formula of Reunion with John of Antioch. Most EO seem to hold it in high veneration, being an approved document of the Council of Chalcedon. However, I do not believe that it has such official status in the OO Tradition, and that Cyril received criticism for it from less "moderate" believers in the Alexandrian Christology. Also, I think I remember it once referred to on this site as a "mistake". Could people here share their perspectives on it?

The last part of the reunion --- "As to the evangelical and apostolic expressions about the Lord, we know that theologians treat some in common as of one person and distinguish others as of two natures, and interpret the god-befitting ones in connection with the godhead of Christ and the lowly ones with his humanity."

is actually clearly softening the fourth anathema of St. Cyril, which says: "No one should apply evangelical or apostolic statements about the Lord to his humanity alone."

John of Antioch at first hated St. Cyril during the council of Ephesus, for not waiting for him and then creating(which was people's fault) some kind of bloodshed in the city. Then after some negotiations, this creed really seems softening from both sides - John accepting the word "theotokos" and St. Cyril softening some(or only one) of his anathemas.

I'm curious if any of the OO's here would agree that St. Cyril "softened" his fourth anathema by agreeing to this formula.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2011, 02:24:01 AM »
the fourth anathema of St. Cyril, which says: "No one should apply evangelical or apostolic statements about the Lord to his humanity alone."

Was this an attempt to paraphrase?

Here's Pusey's translation of the fourth anathema:

"If any one allot to two Persons or Hypostases, the words in the Gospel and Apostolic writings, said either of Christ by the saints or by Him of Himself, and ascribe some to a man conceived of by himself apart from the Word That is of God, others as God-befitting to the Word alone That is of God the Father, be he anathema."
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 02:30:42 AM »
deusveritasest, who criticized it from the Alexandrian side?

I don't know exactly. But I remember reading in Father Samuel's book (and maybe one or two others, I'm having a hard time remembering right now) that a number of adherents to Ephesus I criticized the letter to John.

I thought "...of two natures" was perfectly acceptable and was even used by St. Dioscoros at Chalcedon.

But remember, this was before the career of Saint Dioscorus. I don't know that "from two natures" had entered into much usage on the Cyrillian side by that time.

But I don't think that was one of the most criticized parts of the letter. I think this:

Quote
As to the evangelical and apostolic expressions about the Lord, we know that theologians treat some in common as of one person and distinguish others as of two natures, and interpret the god-befitting ones in connection with the godhead of Christ and the lowly ones with his humanity.

received a lot more heat.

Was it criticized for its actual content or for the apparent compromise it created with Antiochians who still held a Theodoran Christology? 

Both. I think there were a number of those of the Alexandrian Christology who saw some parts of the letter as theologically sketchy (certainly not as bad as the Tome, but not entirely embraceable either).
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 02:48:20 AM »

Offline mattymoo

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2012, 05:56:48 PM »
So far I am lost, as I have been since being converted by a ROCOR priest (chrismated in OCA mostly due to geographical reasons ) as to what the actual relationship between OO and EO churches are. It seems to me, that in the majority of EO Churches there is often permission of the local bishop to inter-communion. Some (many) consider this heretical. I do not. As with RCOCR and the rest of Eo before the re-union I think it is almost exclusively a difference in translation and a split that happened due to the political environment of the time vis a vis the Byzantine Empire and those outside its borders. Many would certainly disagree with me, but I am interested at this time in what folks think about inter-communion of laity versus con-celebration which are and ever have been two distinct things?

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 06:05:17 PM »
Intercommunion of laity happens a lot and I have no problem with it.
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Offline mattymoo

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 06:41:16 PM »
Intercommunion of laity happens a lot and I have no problem with it.

Agreed, from an Orthodox Christian who would be considered rather on the "traditional" side.

Offline Severian

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2012, 07:18:33 PM »
Some (many) consider this heretical. I do not. As with RCOCR and the rest of Eo before the re-union I think it is almost exclusively a difference in translation and a split that happened due to the political environment of the time vis a vis the Byzantine Empire and those outside its borders.\
It is surprises me that someone being converted through ROCOR holds this opinion.
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Offline mattymoo

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2012, 07:20:46 PM »
Some (many) consider this heretical. I do not. As with RCOCR and the rest of Eo before the re-union I think it is almost exclusively a difference in translation and a split that happened due to the political environment of the time vis a vis the Byzantine Empire and those outside its borders.\
It is surprises me that someone being converted through ROCOR holds this opinion.

I doubt that I am the only one. Wholeheartedly I doubt that!

Offline Severian

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2012, 07:54:50 PM »
Some (many) consider this heretical. I do not. As with RCOCR and the rest of Eo before the re-union I think it is almost exclusively a difference in translation and a split that happened due to the political environment of the time vis a vis the Byzantine Empire and those outside its borders.\
It is surprises me that someone being converted through ROCOR holds this opinion.

I doubt that I am the only one. Wholeheartedly I doubt that!
Well then, that sheds an interesting light on the subject, IMO.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 07:55:08 PM by Severian »
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Offline Severian

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2012, 07:56:15 PM »
Some (many) consider this heretical. I do not. As with RCOCR and the rest of Eo before the re-union I think it is almost exclusively a difference in translation and a split that happened due to the political environment of the time vis a vis the Byzantine Empire and those outside its borders.\
It is surprises me that someone being converted through ROCOR holds this opinion.
Ack! I meant it surprises me! :P
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Offline mattymoo

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2012, 08:14:57 PM »
Some (many) consider this heretical. I do not. As with RCOCR and the rest of Eo before the re-union I think it is almost exclusively a difference in translation and a split that happened due to the political environment of the time vis a vis the Byzantine Empire and those outside its borders.\
It is surprises me that someone being converted through ROCOR holds this opinion.

I doubt that I am the only one. Wholeheartedly I doubt that!
Well then, that sheds an interesting light on the subject, IMO.

that's funny - very much a stereotype - as much as it may be deserved in some aspects. yes, i spent an entire month plus more - all of lent. i came from a vague Christian commune in santa cruz ca where i had gone from nj. i looked in a directory of intentional Christian communities because i had already given up on mainstream Christian congregationalism. I pricked either the radical prot Hitturites in Caanada and the Orthodox intentional community in the US southeast. I spent the entire of lent there. By the end of it, at pascha, i went outside of the Church and to go to the bathroom - i Looked up at the sky - i saw the stars, i had heard40 days of Orthodox prayers and hymnody and I said, well, if this isn't Christianity, then there is no Christianity.

That was that. Based on the same concept of inter-communion verses con-celebration i went back to NJ and decided to be chrismated in an OCA Church since for us philly folks it was one one of the only english speaking relatively traditional Churches in the area. Even at the very very very ROCOR place I had stayed for lent it was said that well, the OO churches are we... and then there was silence and then, well... they have a questionable place in Orthodoxy. I never considered going to an OO church and actually, until recently there wasn't one in my area. I went to the Church I found, and loved it and loved the people. Most of the folks who go to our EO Church now also go to the OO Church for  annual saints day festival.

We have a good relationship and several of the founding members of the OO Church nearby came to our EO Church for years before there was enough to support to create an OO Church in our area.

I dunno - especially considering that ROCOR was in a very similar situation regarding the majority of EO that it would be so weird to proceed with the concept of differentiating between inter-communion and con-celebration?


(Edit to fix quote tags.  Salpy)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:01:22 PM by Salpy »

Offline William

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2012, 09:29:52 PM »
Severian, you should let go of this "ROCOR is nothing but unsympathetic hardliners" perception you have.
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2012, 10:57:38 PM »
Severian, you should let go of this "ROCOR is nothing but unsympathetic hardliners" perception you have.
Some are sympathetic hardliners.  ;)
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 09:03:15 PM »
Severian, you should let go of this "ROCOR is nothing but unsympathetic hardliners" perception you have.
When did I ever say that? Besides, in some regards I admire ROCOR's hesitance towards ecumenism and talks of unity with other Churches.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 09:03:58 PM by Severian »
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 09:07:39 PM »
Severian, you should let go of this "ROCOR is nothing but unsympathetic hardliners" perception you have.
Some are sympathetic hardliners.  ;)

My new favorite phrase! :)
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 09:52:35 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior jesus Christ!
Severian, you should let go of this "ROCOR is nothing but unsympathetic hardliners" perception you have.
When did I ever say that?

I know! I searched over this thread trying to see exactly what he was talking about! Clearly nonsense ;)

stay blessed,
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Offline William

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 11:51:48 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior jesus Christ!
Severian, you should let go of this "ROCOR is nothing but unsympathetic hardliners" perception you have.
When did I ever say that?

I know! I searched over this thread trying to see exactly what he was talking about! Clearly nonsense ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Not sure if this is sarcastic because of the winky, but still. The fact that Severian has this glaring preconceived generalization about ROCOR comes across to me pretty much every time I've ever seen him mention them.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 11:56:49 PM »
In what other threads has he mentioned them?

And ROCOR is pretty much known to be strict about rejecting ecumenism.  I don't think most members of ROCOR would deny that.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 11:57:24 PM by Salpy »

Offline Severian

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2012, 05:19:26 PM »
Not sure if this is sarcastic because of the winky, but still. The fact that Severian has this glaring preconceived generalization about ROCOR comes across to me pretty much every time I've ever seen him mention them.
All I meant was that ROCOR is typically very hesitant towards ecumenism. And I personally find nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2012, 11:44:55 PM »
Severian, you should let go of this "ROCOR is nothing but unsympathetic hardliners" perception you have.
Looking back at this comment made me laugh my head off! :D
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2014, 07:15:03 AM »
Clearly the Formula of Reunion, like the Henotikon, could not be a lasting basis for reunion since it was understood as meaning something different by the various parties. The letter of Ibas to Maris the Persian shows that those in his circle understood it as meaning that St Cyril had abandoned his Christology and accepted that of Theodore of Mopsuestia!

St Cyril hoped it meant that the Easterners were Orthodox enough, but came to realise that many of them did not accept an Orthodox Christology at all. Theodoret and Ibas were both loyal followers of Theodore after all, and never rejected his teachings, even after Chalcedon.

Father Peter


What is the OO understanding of the Reunion of 433? In what way did St. Cyril hope the Easterners were "Orthodox enough?"


Is the letter of Ibas to Maris the Persian one of the "Three Chapters" condemned at the fifth council?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 07:15:38 AM by gueranger »

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2014, 06:01:11 AM »
Are you saying that there is precedent for Orientals reuniting with orthodoxy? This would be great! it could be a foundation for a much-needed reunion!!!

We never departed from orthodoxy.   :)

Whoa, old post revival! But amen! :-)



Some (many) consider this heretical. I do not. As with RCOCR and the rest of Eo before the re-union I think it is almost exclusively a difference in translation and a split that happened due to the political environment of the time vis a vis the Byzantine Empire and those outside its borders.\
It is surprises me that someone being converted through ROCOR holds this opinion.

I'm split between OCA and ROCOR parishes and feel the same way :-), that there is no real difference in faith or practice between those accepting and rejecting Chalcedon. But I'll give you it's an uncommon opinion in the ROCOR, and a much more common one in the OCA...
"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2014, 07:16:27 AM »
On the ground, we're united already. My priest, by approval of the bishop communes Oriental Orthodox that come through town from time to time. We just need to get over the ego stuff and make this happen.

PP
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"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2014, 07:58:54 AM »
On the ground, we're united already. My priest, by approval of the bishop communes Oriental Orthodox that come through town from time to time. We just need to get over the ego stuff and make this happen.

PP

And RC Priest will commune you. Get over the ego stuff and make this happen!
An Anglican Priest will commune you. Get over the ego stuff and make this happen!
Rod Parsley will commune you. Get over the stuff and make this happen!

Ask your Priest if you can commune at an OO parish.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2014, 09:50:27 AM »
Quote
And RC Priest will commune you. Get over the ego stuff and make this happen!
An Anglican Priest will commune you. Get over the ego stuff and make this happen!
Rod Parsley will commune you. Get over the stuff and make this happen!
Awww, does that make you feel better? Aren't you just precious.

Quote
Ask your Priest if you can commune at an OO parish
I have and if there is no EO parish where Im at, yes.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline jah777

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2014, 11:06:48 AM »
On the ground, we're united already. My priest, by approval of the bishop communes Oriental Orthodox that come through town from time to time. We just need to get over the ego stuff and make this happen.

PP

Priests and bishops can make mistakes, as yours have done in this regard.  This is not according to ego but according to revelation.  We should look to the saints and Fathers to guide the Church, not professors and professional ecumenists who know documents but do not know the grace of the Holy Spirit.  The professors and ecumenists say one thing on this subject, the saints and holy elders of our times say the opposite.   

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2014, 11:33:29 AM »
Quote
Ask your Priest if you can commune at an OO parish
I have and if there is no EO parish where Im at, yes.

PP

Well, that didn't work out as planned, did it?  :P
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline orthonorm

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2014, 12:31:16 PM »
Quote
Ask your Priest if you can commune at an OO parish
I have and if there is no EO parish where Im at, yes.

PP

Well, that didn't work out as planned, did it?  :P

He's Antiochian, WR even. You sure you know my plans?
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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2014, 01:32:26 PM »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Agabus

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2014, 01:37:46 PM »
You sure you know my plans?

 :-*
I know the plans I have for you, says Mor Ephrem, plans to Internet and not fail.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 01:37:59 PM by Agabus »
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Offline gueranger

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2014, 02:46:38 PM »

[/quote]

What is the OO understanding of the Reunion of 433? In what way did St. Cyril hope the Easterners were "Orthodox enough?"

Is the letter of Ibas to Maris the Persian one of the "Three Chapters" condemned at the fifth council?
[/quote]

Nobody really answered my question. Maybe I should have started a new thread instead of resurrecting an old one.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Formula of Reunion of 433
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2014, 12:27:00 AM »


What is the OO understanding of the Reunion of 433? In what way did St. Cyril hope the Easterners were "Orthodox enough?"

Is the letter of Ibas to Maris the Persian one of the "Three Chapters" condemned at the fifth council?
[/quote]

Nobody really answered my question. Maybe I should have started a new thread instead of resurrecting an old one.
[/quote]

Yes

Fr. John W. Morris