OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 06:19:50 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: 11 million Irish Americans leave Catholic Church  (Read 2134 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« on: June 12, 2010, 04:56:18 PM »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/col/NOdowd/Holy-mess-11-million-Irish-Americans-leave-Catholic-Church--61442662.html


Holy mess: 11 million Irish Americans leave Catholic Church


A new survey shows 34 million Americans, or 15 percent of the population, say they have no religion.

Even more significant is that one-third of those, about 11 million people, are Irish Americans.

The survey by professors at Trinity College in Hartford, CT, does not explain why Irish Catholics are by far the highest number of people who are losing their religion every year in America.

We can only surmise the reasons for this, but I have some definite ideas. Think church sex scandals. Let's look at the timeline first.
The number of non-religious or "Nones" has nearly doubled between 1990 and now.


In 1990, Nones accounted for 8.2 percent of the population
In 2001 they accounted for 14.2 percent
As of 2009, they account for 15 percent
The report estimates that the figure will grow to 25 percent in 10 years time — making non-religion the largest "religion" in America.

Why are so many Irish Catholics leaving the faith? The obvious reason to me is the church sex scandals. They disproportionately affected Irish Catholics and most of the abusers we read about were Irish Catholic priests.

Certainly, based on evidence from Ireland where hundreds of thousands have fled the church and vocations have plummeted after the church scandals there, America with a similar experience is unlikely to be any different.

There has been such incredible scrutiny of the church from every angle and the church has responded so poorly since the scandals began that it is hardly surprising that people are leaving.

For instance, the Boston archdiocese, a hub of Irish Catholicism in America, has been riven by deep scandals that surely have turned many parishioners off

It is only my opinion but Irish Catholics had a deep and almost mystical attachment to the church and followed her rules more devoutly than other groups.

"Rome dictates and Ireland takes" was the old saw about how devoutly the Irish followed the signals from the Vatican.

Once that trust was broken — indeed shattered — it was always likely that many would turn away.

We are told that the leavers are "young, male and independent" and that almost all of them were identified as Catholic at age 12.

The loss of faith by Irish Americans has been profound and will require an incredible effort to win the faithful departed back. The church has a massive struggle on its hands.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 05:36:12 PM »

Instead of worrying about what the Roman catholics are doing, why not worry about our own house??
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2010, 06:09:44 PM »

Instead of worrying about what the Roman catholics are doing, why not worry about our own house??

I agree.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2010, 07:24:53 PM »

I call bull. I live in the Boston Archdiocese, and things like revenues, Mass attendance, etc. are about the same as they were ten years ago, before the scandals. And there are many signs of improvement in orthodoxy and piety among those who practice in our archdiocese.

The "silent apostasy" afflicting the US Catholic Church goes back much further than 2002 and involves other things far more than bad press over the scandals.
Logged
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 03:48:18 AM »

I would hesitate to blame it on the scandals. Most likely, the blame is on the common enemy that Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Muslim alike a facing: secular humanism. Traditional religion, especially Semitic religions like our own, tend not to jive with will the hedonistic morality that America so firmly embraces.

Furthermore, it reveals the poor quality of American catechism and formation. If these people truly believed the Catholic Faith, then the behavior of its custodians, while it might trouble them, it would not destroy their faith.

We must pray for all the faithful who have left the church for their return.

Now, why Irish-Americans specifically? I'm not sure, but I'm sure there are income factors cultural factors related to the fact that most Irish-Americans have ancestors living here going back a ways.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 05:34:46 AM »

Holy Eastern Orthodoxy Better Get there, Like Yesterday.... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,388



WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 07:20:46 AM »

Holy Eastern Orthodoxy Better Get there, Like Yesterday.... Grin

Me Irish.
Logged
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 09:53:53 AM »

I would hesitate to blame it on the scandals. Most likely, the blame is on the common enemy that Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Muslim alike a facing: secular humanism. Traditional religion, especially Semitic religions like our own, tend not to jive with will the hedonistic morality that America so firmly embraces.

Furthermore, it reveals the poor quality of American catechism and formation. If these people truly believed the Catholic Faith, then the behavior of its custodians, while it might trouble them, it would not destroy their faith.

We must pray for all the faithful who have left the church for their return.

Now, why Irish-Americans specifically? I'm not sure, but I'm sure there are income factors cultural factors related to the fact that most Irish-Americans have ancestors living here going back a ways.
The poor quality of catechism probably does effect the numbers. My son and nephews attend a Catholic high school and they tend to do very well in theology class compared to their Catholic friends. Even one of the theology teachers mentioned the Eastern Orthodox students seem to have a better handle on Church history and Biblical stories than the Roman Catholic students. My son was shocked at the level of ignorance among his friends when it came to understanding their own church.  He said he had to explain basic Old Testament stories to his friends to help them understand our Christian heritage. He also mentioned that the Greek Orthodox and Arab Orthodox students he has met at this school are usually quite pious. One Arab boy, who is the son of an Orthodox deacon in the JP, was a very strict faster. My son compared the fasting rigor of his Arab friend to that of the cafeteria menu during Lent and was amazed at the laxity of fasting rules at his high school. It seems Orthodox families who care enough to place their sons in Roman Catholic high schools tend to take their faith more seriously.

But the other thing my son and nephews are disturbed over are the Masses. Because our boys have been exposed to the Divine Liturgy since they were babies, they have a real hard time swallowing the shallowness, lack of reverence, and modern relevancy associated with the Mass and common prayers used during the school day. My son said he doesn't feel like the Mass is about worshipping God but about hearing rock and roll music sprinkled among sentimental, drippy prayers. I explained to him that not all Roman Catholics worship the way they do at his high school and that there is a drive to return to more ancient traditions of worship in Rome.

Still I am grateful for the Catholic High School my son attends because the school encourages our boys to be leaders in the community and tries to mold them to be future good husbands and fathers. In public high school, there is an effort to neutralize gender differences and to encourage feminine personality traits over masculine personality traits which I believe is a big mistake. The results of this philosophy is that our colleges are now disproportionately female. I have read news articles that predict this trend will continue as we head to female to male ratios of 60/40 in most of our nation's colleges and universities.

In regard to my own extended family, I have observed that many of my relatives on the Italian side of the family are no longer Roman Catholic due to divorce or disgust with the abuse scandals. And some loved hearing the Orthodox wedding service when they attended my and my sister's wedding years ago. They said the service reminded them of what Roman Catholic worship used to look like.

But just to be clear, I think we Orthodox shouldn't throw stones at the Roman Catholic Church. We have had our own abuse scandals and the only reason we aren't known for them is because we are still relatively unknown to most of the Western world.  I realize the magnitude of abuse in Orthodoxy is relatively small but it does exist and I have known Orthodox priests who were abusers.

Also, we have lost a number of our own people due to an emphasis on ethnicity over Christianity and poor catechism of our faithful who came after the immigrant generation. We need to do a better job of retaining our people too.

Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,388



WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 03:06:56 PM »

sure. Plus I think allowing married clergy in Orthodoxy is very healthy.
Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 05:09:40 PM »

Most likely, the blame is on the common enemy that Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Muslim alike a facing: secular humanism.
Muahahahahaha.  laugh

Jests aside, this hardly surprises me though.  I've known a good deal of people who have become 'general Theists' or ventured into non-belief, and many leave since they believe most established religions to be antiquated, stagnant in their views of the world, and egotistical in their views of either humanity or of the Church's place in the world.  It appears to be lose-lose though.  If they change to reach out to those who support massive modernisation, the traditionalists will schism.  If they remain the way things are, there are many sheep who will venture into the pastures of Humanism.  Many cling to a religion for comfort alone (whether it is the comfort of community, or that of a higher control over the cosmos), rather than the theology, but when they find that comfort without the need for the religious aspects, many will leave their Churches and faiths.  Numerous people I speak with who are religious, some more lax than others, do so manly because they believe there should be an afterlife, and they find comfort in the thought that this "isn't all there is".
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 10:27:19 PM »

There is hardly any continuity between the pre VII and post VII Church in America...

I've seen girls in their Daisy Dukes  Shocked @ Church in the summer...
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 03:27:36 AM »

The poor quality of catechism probably does effect the numbers. My son and nephews attend a Catholic high school and they tend to do very well in theology class compared to their Catholic friends. Even one of the theology teachers mentioned the Eastern Orthodox students seem to have a better handle on Church history and Biblical stories than the Roman Catholic students. My son was shocked at the level of ignorance among his friends when it came to understanding their own church.  He said he had to explain basic Old Testament stories to his friends to help them understand our Christian heritage. He also mentioned that the Greek Orthodox and Arab Orthodox students he has met at this school are usually quite pious. One Arab boy, who is the son of an Orthodox deacon in the JP, was a very strict faster. My son compared the fasting rigor of his Arab friend to that of the cafeteria menu during Lent and was amazed at the laxity of fasting rules at his high school. It seems Orthodox families who care enough to place their sons in Roman Catholic high schools tend to take their faith more seriously.

But the other thing my son and nephews are disturbed over are the Masses. Because our boys have been exposed to the Divine Liturgy since they were babies, they have a real hard time swallowing the shallowness, lack of reverence, and modern relevancy associated with the Mass and common prayers used during the school day. My son said he doesn't feel like the Mass is about worshipping God but about hearing rock and roll music sprinkled among sentimental, drippy prayers. I explained to him that not all Roman Catholics worship the way they do at his high school and that there is a drive to return to more ancient traditions of worship in Rome.

Still I am grateful for the Catholic High School my son attends because the school encourages our boys to be leaders in the community and tries to mold them to be future good husbands and fathers. In public high school, there is an effort to neutralize gender differences and to encourage feminine personality traits over masculine personality traits which I believe is a big mistake. The results of this philosophy is that our colleges are now disproportionately female. I have read news articles that predict this trend will continue as we head to female to male ratios of 60/40 in most of our nation's colleges and universities.

In regard to my own extended family, I have observed that many of my relatives on the Italian side of the family are no longer Roman Catholic due to divorce or disgust with the abuse scandals. And some loved hearing the Orthodox wedding service when they attended my and my sister's wedding years ago. They said the service reminded them of what Roman Catholic worship used to look like.

But just to be clear, I think we Orthodox shouldn't throw stones at the Roman Catholic Church. We have had our own abuse scandals and the only reason we aren't known for them is because we are still relatively unknown to most of the Western world.  I realize the magnitude of abuse in Orthodoxy is relatively small but it does exist and I have known Orthodox priests who were abusers.

Also, we have lost a number of our own people due to an emphasis on ethnicity over Christianity and poor catechism of our faithful who came after the immigrant generation. We need to do a better job of retaining our people too.



Well, I would like to lay the primary blame on the poor catechism not on the Church, but on her parents. Catechism begins at home. Unfortunately, parents often send their children to Catholic school and assume it will produce a Catholic child. Likewise, many send their children to school and assume it will produce an educated child. The idea of a parent taking responsibility for a child and the community enforcing proper standards of behavior has resulted in a very, very lax American Church. Parental involvement is key. I know many people who were raised Catholic and have not an ounce of Catholicity in them - cultural Catholicism has consumed and destroyed the American Church.

The fast rules are actually so integral to Christianity; it is a pity that in the West, we have almost done away with fasting. I have recently started following the old fast rules, that the Orthodox Churches still maintain. It is such a blessing! I found that my desire for foodstuff turned into a desire for Easter this past year, when I first followed the fast for Lent. I've also started trying to keep it on Wednesdays and Friday, and when I get around to it I'll figure out the other days we used to fast in the West. I blame much of the problems in the Western Church on the lack of this discipline. The joy of Easter and Christmas are so much greater with the Lenten and Advent fasts. The control over life and sin, and the closeness to God that it brings are tremendous. I have heard that there is some thought of changing the fast rules if there is ever a pan-Orthodox synod - for God's sake! Do not change them. They are fine. If anything, use the synod to recommend to us that we make our fast rules stricter.

As for the Mass, you are correct. Can you imagine what Orthodoxy would be if the Iconostasis were removed, the altar turned around, and the beautiful icons replaced with flowery photographs of hippie Jesus? It would cease to be Orthodox. Pray for us, brethren, the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great was modified by His Holiness Pope Paul VI, and while this was not sin, it came along with a massive destruction of our liturgy. Our priests turned their backs on God and kicked him out of the sanctuary (quite literally). The priests, instead of leading the congregation in divine worship, entertain an audience.

There is no greater signifier of the focus of the new liturgical style; the priest turns his back on God, and our attendance at church becomes focused on who he faces. In the Old Mass, it was God. In the New Mass, it is the people. We turned inward towards ourselves instead of turning eastward to heaven.

It's not the Mass of Paul VI. It's what people have done with it. Vestments not fit for representatives of Christ are worn, the altars are backwards, we sing rock-and-roll instead of chanting the ancient hymns, the sanctuary is no longer set-apart by the rail and the rood screen, and it is hardly recognizable.

It's horrid. We claim to be the true Orthodox Church, yet our liturgy reveals something sorely lacking. Luckily, as you were saying, there is a move to return to a more orthodox and Catholic form of worship. I, however, am fully a Western Christian in thought and deed, and I cannot abandon my beloved Holy Father Benedict XVI, or the Western Church to worship primarily in the East, where the liturgy is still strong. Smiley

I appreciate your charity for my church. While is saddening that so many, like your relatives and the 11 million Irish-Americans, have left, in the end, it will produce a smaller, but more orthodox Catholic Church.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
christianos
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: Greek Catholic Archeparchy of Przemyśl–Warsaw
Posts: 30


St Sharbel pray for us


« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 09:27:30 AM »

I think they have never left the Church, simply they have never been there Sad It's not like someone goes every sunday to church and after sex scandals he says "it's not for me". I've been living in Belgrade, Serbia and belive me, the problem is the same of even worst. Here in Bulgaria where I'm currently stay I've not met any religious people under 25.
We are witnessing the triumph of antivalues, hedonism and secularity. Not only CC has such problem but christianity in generaly.
Logged

Господи Ісусе Христе, Сину Божий, помилуй мене грішного.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,388



WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 03:53:08 PM »

A pro-American protestant Czech government official once told me that faith is stronger in America than Europe because in Europe they have a strong social safety network and people in America rely on the church.

Now later I realize that is not the technical reason, because feudal Europe was all about very strong networks in the villages and attendance I am sure was much higher than modern America.

So it is not a question about "social democracy" networks vs. western individualism which supposedly encourages religion (this is what the western missionaries may think), since the social networks were strongest in krepostnie (peasant "landlord-commune") villages and the landlord provided for the servants and they provided for eachother. Instead I suspect it is that people live better today, not that individualism is more conducive to religion than community-based societies.
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 04:12:07 PM »

A pro-American protestant Czech government official once told me that faith is stronger in America than Europe because in Europe they have a strong social safety network and people in America rely on the church.

Now later I realize that is not the technical reason, because feudal Europe was all about very strong networks in the villages and attendance I am sure was much higher than modern America.

So it is not a question about "social democracy" networks vs. western individualism which supposedly encourages religion (this is what the western missionaries may think), since the social networks were strongest in krepostnie (peasant "landlord-commune") villages and the landlord provided for the servants and they provided for eachother. Instead I suspect it is that people live better today, not that individualism is more conducive to religion than community-based societies.

There are several factors, higher standards of living is certainly a big one, when people's lives are really bad, they're more likely to hope for a better life to come, to turn to religion as an escape from their day to day lives. Another major factor is urbanization, traditionally ideas have flowed more freely in urban areas, there are better communication networks so new ideas can get exposure and flourish, 1900 years ago Christianity was the hip new thing that quickly caught on in the urban areas of the Empire, but took centuries longer to take root in the poorer rural areas. I would assume that most the religiosity in America in comparison to Europe can be accounted for based on larger percentages of the population living in less densely populated areas. As a corollary, I'm sure modern communication from the radio to the internet has had an impact, allowing traditionally urban social networking to encompass not only entire societies but the entire world. The internet will probably have the greatest impact, but on a sociological time line it's still in its infancy (though it's ancient on a technological time line). There are obviously several other factors, but these seem to the the most significant from a social perspective.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 04:14:10 PM by GiC » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,388



WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 06:17:43 PM »

GIC:
The atheist material dialectic explanation is that material factors determine the development of religion and as such it is better to modernize socially backwards peoples rather than create armaggedon. Family lineage is the main factor for individuals but is not an explanation of the historic development of world religion. I accept both the dialectic explanation and the explanation of God revealing himself to man.

I doubt I can persuade you to have compassionate for less fortunate millions of people in undeveloped countries who you said you want to be annihilated. You need a Dances with Wolves experience where a good Samaritan Muslim or African picks you up after you have been hurt and brings you back to health and lets you live in his house.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,388



WWW
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 07:18:38 PM »

Interesting that I might not be able to prove to you, with your superior intellect, that wiping out millions of socially-inferior people is wrong. Someone blasphemes in a restored theocracy in Israel and they are stoned. I say that is unfair because it isn't equal. The would-be theocracy doesn't care. I point to the New Testament or "generally accepted principles and they don't care. Why is equal moral they ask? Maybe they have an explanation for that too.

Perhaps real morality, like the existence of your soul, is instinctive and ultimately, in the last analysis, something you have to have the gift of faith to believe in/
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 07:22:38 PM by rakovsky » Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2010, 07:53:13 PM »

I think they have never left the Church, simply they have never been there Sad It's not like someone goes every sunday to church and after sex scandals he says "it's not for me". I've been living in Belgrade, Serbia and belive me, the problem is the same of even worst. Here in Bulgaria where I'm currently stay I've not met any religious people under 25.
We are witnessing the triumph of antivalues, hedonism and secularity. Not only CC has such problem but christianity in generaly.

How about the eastern Catholic Churches that still push celibacy How do we know that  there not plagued with the abuses like in the roman churches being that close and with the bi- ritual  clergy it could be catchy ,Serbia Bulgaria and other Orthodox Countries do not force celibacy on it's future clergy ,there given a choice most choose marrage, it's not taken away from them .....Nothing is hidden in Holy Orthodoxy everything is dealth with swifly.... Grin Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2010, 08:34:54 PM »

I think they have never left the Church, simply they have never been there Sad It's not like someone goes every sunday to church and after sex scandals he says "it's not for me". I've been living in Belgrade, Serbia and belive me, the problem is the same of even worst. Here in Bulgaria where I'm currently stay I've not met any religious people under 25.
We are witnessing the triumph of antivalues, hedonism and secularity. Not only CC has such problem but christianity in generaly.

How about the eastern Catholic Churches that still push celibacy How do we know that  there not plagued with the abuses like in the roman churches being that close and with the bi- ritual  clergy it could be catchy ,Serbia Bulgaria and other Orthodox Countries do not force celibacy on it's future clergy ,there given a choice most choose marrage, it's not taken away from them .....Nothing is hidden in Holy Orthodoxy everything is dealth with swifly.... Grin Grin

Because I highly doubt that allowing clergy to marry has any effect whatsoever on incidents of sexual abuse by the clergy. In fact, I know at least one local Eastern Catholic priest who was married, and yet still stood accused of child abuse.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
christianos
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: Greek Catholic Archeparchy of Przemyśl–Warsaw
Posts: 30


St Sharbel pray for us


« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2010, 03:35:30 AM »

http://www.tkmlawfirm.com/PracticeAreas/Greek-Orthodox-Church-Child-Sexual-Abuse.asp

I have my own theory about why sex scandals were publicized during the Year  for Priests. If you want to belive in Orthodoxy there is no problem, I wish you good luck, but it's like a child who closes his eyes and thinks no-one can see him.  
I noticed that in Serbia or Bulgaria people accuse the priests and bishops not of sexual abuse but of embezzling money, I'm sure you remember the case of bishop Artemije from Kosovo. Imo the best is to take care of one's own Church.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 03:36:22 AM by christianos » Logged

Господи Ісусе Христе, Сину Божий, помилуй мене грішного.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2010, 03:52:51 AM »

It's Not on a Massive scale, and hidden for decades And Shifted Around Like you Know Where.... Grin

Serbia protested Vigorously with volence, when the west tried pushing a Gay pride parade there,,,What do you think would happen to a child molesting Priest in serbia... Grin
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 03:58:01 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,388



WWW
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2010, 04:14:00 AM »


Because I highly doubt that allowing clergy to marry has any effect whatsoever on incidents of sexual abuse by the clergy. In fact, I know at least one local Eastern Catholic priest who was married, and yet still stood accused of child abuse.


Sure, sexual abuse happens most often in families. But I still think that having a Batushka and Matushka is the church's model for stability of a church, where they are the spiritual father and mother for the parish. Further, when married clergy are let in they are not forced to choose between having a wife or becoming a priest. When it's demanded to make this choice, I think that many people who are attracted to adult women will have a tough time deciding and a larger percent of those people will avoid the priesthood, thereby allowing other types to make a higher percent. Does my reasoning make sense?
Logged
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2010, 04:57:36 AM »


Because I highly doubt that allowing clergy to marry has any effect whatsoever on incidents of sexual abuse by the clergy. In fact, I know at least one local Eastern Catholic priest who was married, and yet still stood accused of child abuse.


Sure, sexual abuse happens most often in families. But I still think that having a Batushka and Matushka is the church's model for stability of a church, where they are the spiritual father and mother for the parish. Further, when married clergy are let in they are not forced to choose between having a wife or becoming a priest. When it's demanded to make this choice, I think that many people who are attracted to adult women will have a tough time deciding and a larger percent of those people will avoid the priesthood, thereby allowing other types to make a higher percent. Does my reasoning make sense?
One of the issues in the American Catholic Church is that young homosexual men were often encouraged to enter the priesthood, many of whom had no business being priests because of their unfortunate concupiscence. This was partially a result of clerical celibacy as men for whom normal sexual relations were probably not possible chose this as a career. It also discourages many young men who feel called to marriage from discerning a call to the priesthood.

The seminary for the Archdiocese of Baltimore was called "St. Mary's Pink Palace" because of the large amount of homosexual men who went there. I have also heard that in the past, often, heterosexual men were discriminated against and encouraged by the hierarchy not to go through with their priestly formation at some seminaries. Very unfortunate.

But clearly, while the celibacy rule may have tilted the demographic of the priesthood towards perversion at times in the past, these men had issues before entering the seminary. One would expect a heterosexual man to fail to be celibate with an adult woman, rather than a teenage boy. Of course, I am sure that there are many priests who sadly act out like Fr. Cutié, but their sins are not brought to light because they are not on television.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2010, 11:01:15 AM »

Instead of worrying about what the Roman catholics are doing, why not worry about our own house??

Umm...obviously because they are (or were) still Christians. These people have souls too. They are not made out of stone just because they are Catholic.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,388



WWW
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2010, 12:23:14 PM »

One of the issues in the American Catholic Church is that young homosexual men were often encouraged [???????] to enter the priesthood.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 12:24:00 PM by rakovsky » Logged
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 03:25:30 PM »

One of the issues in the American Catholic Church is that young homosexual men were often encouraged [HuhHuh?] to enter the priesthood.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm

While this does not explain to full reason for the relatively higher incidence of homosexual orientation among American Catholic clergy, it still indicates that there were factors which definitely encouraged more homosexuals and fewer heterosexuals from entering the priesthood. My understanding, from communication with a few Catholic priests, is that there were various factors which encouraged homosexual men over heterosexual men into the priesthood.

It's horrid, I agree. But we must not forget that many of these homosexual priests do live completely chaste lives dedicated to service of God. They have been made eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 03:40:38 PM »

http://www.tkmlawfirm.com/PracticeAreas/Greek-Orthodox-Church-Child-Sexual-Abuse.asp

I have my own theory about why sex scandals were publicized during the Year  for Priests. If you want to belive in Orthodoxy there is no problem, I wish you good luck, but it's like a child who closes his eyes and thinks no-one can see him.  
I noticed that in Serbia or Bulgaria people accuse the priests and bishops not of sexual abuse but of embezzling money, I'm sure you remember the case of bishop Artemije from Kosovo. Imo the best is to take care of one's own Church.

Lies  Against a living Saint .....Bishop Artemije from what i understand is against ecumenism he was railroaded by some of the liberal bleeding hearts in the Serbian Orthodox Synod... Angry Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 05:29:56 PM »

GIC:
The atheist material dialectic explanation is that material factors determine the development of religion and as such it is better to modernize socially backwards peoples rather than create armaggedon. Family lineage is the main factor for individuals but is not an explanation of the historic development of world religion. I accept both the dialectic explanation and the explanation of God revealing himself to man.

I doubt I can persuade you to have compassionate for less fortunate millions of people in undeveloped countries who you said you want to be annihilated. You need a Dances with Wolves experience where a good Samaritan Muslim or African picks you up after you have been hurt and brings you back to health and lets you live in his house.

You confuse my opposition towards political entities and cultural movements that oppress the people of that region with a hatred for the actual people. You're right in that I have little love for those with power or influence in those regions...dictators, terrorists, theorcats...or for their supporters, because they oppress the people I believe need defended. The outcasts and 'second-class' citizens in these countries such as women, religious minorities, even children, etc....these are the people who need to be protected and if their culture and society must fall, if the defenders of that culture and society must be 'annihilated' in order to protect the most basic human rights of those oppressed, so be it.

And if these people must suffer even greater than usual throughout the war to overthrow their culture and society, that is not the fault of the western powers who bring peace and liberty, but the fault of depots and terrorists who would oppose these things.

'Life free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.'
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2010, 06:35:59 PM »

I've noticed that people who were noted for, at one time being very strict in religious observance such as the Irish, and French Canadians have today become almost completely secularized and have dropped out of the Church all together. On the other hand, people who have a strong cultural attachment to their faith such as Southern Italians/Sicilians, Greeks, Poles, Western Ukrainians, as well as Hispanics still tend to practice their faith and feel a stronger attachment to it.  Why is this?  Well, those people who have traditionally practiced their faith in a more folksy mannor with less emphasise on strict adherence to dogma, creed, or rules as well as compining it with a strong nationalistic fervor seem to still practice it regardless of an7y major theological or liturgical changes that have occurred in their Church over the past century.  On the other hand those people whose adherence to religion was based more on a strict, legalistic interpretation of it seem to have dropped out completely when the rules were lightened up somewhat.  Maybe this has to do with the fact that some groups tended to worship God more out of fear of him then out of an actual love and piety.

If you also look at the type of ethnic parishes (especially RC) that exist in America you'll also see that many have still preserved the old devotional ways, such as novenas and processions which are always outward signs of the simple faith that these people have in God and religion.  Most of the Irish parishes I've seen in the U.S. (Which tend to be the "mainstream" type of Catholic parish here have become very liberal and modernistic in their theology and especially liturgical life.  The Irish were always known for having Jansenist tenancies in their religion, this probably backfired on them in the end and they reversed to become complete modernist in the practice of the Catholicism. The "ethnic" Catholics on the other hand were never known for being super legalistic or authoritarian in their religion so the fact that the Vatican eased up on the rules in the 60's did not become for them a complete shock as with the Irish.

I'm also more then a little skeptical about those who feel that all problems that confront Catholicism can be solved by a return to an almost stereotypical,  rigid mentality in matters of theology and liturgy which traditionalsit RC's often propose as the ultimate solution to the current lack of faith in the RCC.  I used to think that was the answer too and have been down this road before and all I've got for it in the end was a lot of mental problems.  Most modern day Catholics would probably get up and walk out of an Church which preached the strict, Jansenist doctrine and morality so common in the pre Vatican II days.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.117 seconds with 57 queries.