OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 18, 2014, 05:18:17 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Mustum Communion  (Read 4409 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« on: June 11, 2010, 04:30:11 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE:  The following thread started here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27997.0.html  -PtA


In the world in which the Eucharist was founded grape juice was called new wine, what Latins called mustum, for wine is nothing more than grape juice in which yeast has converted some of the sugars to alcohol.  The process starts as soon as the grapes are pressed.  For this reason the Catholic Church allows alcoholic priests to use mustum at Mass.  It was Pope St Julius I that first confirmed the vaildity of using it.  It is produced by the same wineries that make altar wine.  Pasteurized grape juice is not valid, so Welch's and other grocery store products would not be allowed from a Catholic point of view, although some Kosher and all natural grape juices would fit the bill in that nothing has been done to them to prevent fermentation.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 11:15:02 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,765



WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2010, 04:40:37 PM »

Thank you for sharing. Unfortunately the Catholic Church's views on what is acceptable aren't supposed to persuade Orthodox about what is acceptable in Orthodoxy. It is true however, that Byzantine Catholic churches have kept some Orthodox practices from before they went under Rome.

I guess to be persuasive you would have to say this is how we did it when we were part of the Orthodox Church.

Regards.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2010, 06:36:27 PM »

Pope St Julius (+352) who wrote mustum was valid is a saint in both Orthodox and Catholic Churches.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,765



WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2010, 07:27:03 PM »

Quote
I guess to be persuasive you would have to say this is how we did it when we were part of the Orthodox Church.

Sure.

Let's break this down:

Applicable to Catholicism:
Quote
For this reason the Catholic Church allows alcoholic priests to use mustum at Mass. It is [the Catholic practice that it is] produced by the same wineries that make altar wine. Pasteurized grape juice is not valid, so Welch's and other grocery store products would not be allowed from a Catholic point of view, although some Kosher and all natural grape juices would fit the bill in that nothing has been done to them to prevent fermentation.

Applicable to Orthodoxy:

Quote
In the world in which the Eucharist was founded grape juice was called new wine, what Latins called mustum, for wine is nothing more than grape juice in which yeast has converted some of the sugars to alcohol.  The process starts as soon as the grapes are pressed. It was Pope St Julius I (+352) that first confirmed the vaildity of using it. Pasteurized grape juice is not [unpasteurized mustum]

It is worth pointing out that just because the Pope of Rome decided something when he was a leader in the Orthodox Church doesn't mean that it is infallible for us, since the other Patriarchs can have authority too and disagree. based only on what you told me, it is possible that we did something different at that time. However, I would say that the Pope's view from this time is VERY PERSUASIVE.

Perhaps this is what the OCA in Alaska is using as justification. Personally though I would prefer some very low alcohol content over mustum "for wine is nothing more than grape juice in which yeast has converted some of the sugars to alcohol"

Thanks for contributing.
Hal
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 07:31:52 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2010, 08:11:16 PM »

Personally though I would prefer some very low alcohol content over mustum "for wine is nothing more than grape juice in which yeast has converted some of the sugars to alcohol"

The Catholic Church prefers it too, which is why mustum is allowed.  As soon as the grapes are pressed the sugar to alcohol conversion starts, the yeast is one the skins of the grapes.  Mustum has an alcohol content under 1% but it is there.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,765



WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2010, 08:18:35 PM »

OK.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,765



WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2010, 08:18:57 PM »

This is a good explanation. Maybe we can call it ekonomia.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 08:21:48 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2010, 08:34:59 PM »

Personally though I would prefer some very low alcohol content over mustum "for wine is nothing more than grape juice in which yeast has converted some of the sugars to alcohol"

The Catholic Church prefers it too, which is why mustum is allowed.  As soon as the grapes are pressed the sugar to alcohol conversion starts, the yeast is one the skins of the grapes.  Mustum has an alcohol content under 1% but it is there.

The requirement for the Orthodox does not centre on the percentage of alcohol but that it must be red wine and that it must be living (i.e., chemically stopped wine is not permissable.)
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2010, 09:03:33 PM »

Personally though I would prefer some very low alcohol content over mustum "for wine is nothing more than grape juice in which yeast has converted some of the sugars to alcohol"

The Catholic Church prefers it too, which is why mustum is allowed.  As soon as the grapes are pressed the sugar to alcohol conversion starts, the yeast is one the skins of the grapes.  Mustum has an alcohol content under 1% but it is there.

An Internet search shows that the use of mustum has received Vatican approval only in the last few years. Prior to that many Catholics did not believe that transubstantiation could take place in mustum. The substance of mustum was unresponsive to the Words of Institution. 
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2010, 09:50:58 PM »

The requirement for the Orthodox does not centre on the percentage of alcohol but that it must be red wine and that it must be living (i.e., chemically stopped wine is not permissable.)

Then mustum meets those requirements.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2010, 09:59:58 PM »

An Internet search shows that the use of mustum has received Vatican approval only in the last few years. Prior to that many Catholics did not believe that transubstantiation could take place in mustum. The substance of mustum was unresponsive to the Words of Institution. 

Well your search was wrong.  I know a priest who has had the indult for 40+ years.  In 2003, the norms for who may use mustum or low gluten hosts, were restated but as previously posted Pope St. Julius I was the first to mention its validity and St Thomas Aquinas also stated it was valid.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2010, 10:56:30 PM »

I am sure you are right and my research was wrong.   I am often in such a position.

The 1994 statement....

"Norms for Use of Low-Gluten Bread and "Mustum"
  by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5166&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=627693

Btw, Pope Julius was 4th century , and he said: ""If necessary, let the grape be pressed into the chalice."  Has this received the sanction of the Roman Catholic Church?  Could a priest out tramping and trapped in his tent while bad weather rages on the mountain, celebrate his Eucharist by pressing a grape or two into his mug?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2010, 11:08:19 PM »

The requirement for the Orthodox does not centre on the percentage of alcohol but that it must be red wine and that it must be living (i.e., chemically stopped wine is not permissable.)

Then mustum meets those requirements.

Then why is it necessary to obtain permission from the Ordinary in order to celebrate a mustum Mass?  Why must a priest using mustum be obliged to use a chalice of ordinary wine also if he has communicants other than himself?  He is forbidden to commune them with what is mustum.  This appears to indicate that mustum is not seen as meeting acceptable standards of "wineness."

I cannot believe that an Orthodox bishop would allow such.

However, we are wandering off topic and into the area of Catholic esoterica.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2010, 09:56:15 AM »

Btw, Pope Julius was 4th century , and he said: ""If necessary, let the grape be pressed into the chalice."  Has this received the sanction of the Roman Catholic Church?  Could a priest out tramping and trapped in his tent while bad weather rages on the mountain, celebrate his Eucharist by pressing a grape or two into his mug?

Priests in Nazi Concentration Camps and Soviet Gulags did.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2010, 10:04:44 AM »

Then why is it necessary to obtain permission from the Ordinary in order to celebrate a mustum Mass?  Why must a priest using mustum be obliged to use a chalice of ordinary wine also if he has communicants other than himself?  He is forbidden to commune them with what is mustum.  This appears to indicate that mustum is not seen as meeting acceptable standards of "wineness."

Because it is considered an exception not the norm.  This however is not a judgement on its validity.  Unleavened bread is also the norm in the Latin Church but leavened bread could be used in an emergency
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2010, 10:08:04 AM »

Btw, Pope Julius was 4th century , and he said: ""If necessary, let the grape be pressed into the chalice."  Has this received the sanction of the Roman Catholic Church?  Could a priest out tramping and trapped in his tent while bad weather rages on the mountain, celebrate his Eucharist by pressing a grape or two into his mug?

Priests in Nazi Concentration Camps and Soviet Gulags did.

Dear Father Deacon,

It would truly surprise me if priests in the Soviet gulag were eating grapes.  laugh What they did was take a few raisins, steep them in a little water and allow them to ferment.

Father Ambrose
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2010, 10:24:44 AM »

Dear Father Deacon,

It would truly surprise me if priests in the Soviet gulag were eating grapes.  laugh What they did was take a few raisins, steep them in a little water and allow them to ferment.

Father Ambrose

You prove my point.  Once the grapes/raisin are pressed the fermentation process begins and you have wine, new wine with minimal alcohol content, but alcohol none the less.  The Catholic Church only prohibits pasteurized grape juice in which all the alcohol has been destroyed.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2010, 07:50:03 PM »

Father Lance,

Greetings in Christ's love!

I still think there is a difference between our two Churches on this point.  The Orthodox demand wine, and red wine, and wine that is living (i.e., not chemically stopped.)  Anything less is considered unsuitable.  If you have a priest's Sluzhebnik all these requirements are printed at the back in fine print.   The fact that some suffering priests in the gulag had to resort to fermenting raisins does not establish a precedent and I doubt that under normal circumstances where red wine is available the Lord will deign to take up residence in fermented raisin water.

When I attend Catholics masses for things such as weddings and funerals, what I see in the glass chalices is not red wine.  Instead it is of a yellow colour. Does that happen in the States?  Do you know the story behind it?

Father Ambrose
Logged
Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2010, 08:01:47 PM »

Dear Father Deacon,

It would truly surprise me if priests in the Soviet gulag were eating grapes.  laugh What they did was take a few raisins, steep them in a little water and allow them to ferment.

Father Ambrose

You prove my point.  Once the grapes/raisin are pressed the fermentation process begins and you have wine, new wine with minimal alcohol content, but alcohol none the less.  The Catholic Church only prohibits pasteurized grape juice in which all the alcohol has been destroyed.

I have been working in the wine making business now for 5 years. We are capable of utilizing yeasts and fermenting juice into full blown wine at almost 13% in two weeks. WITHOUT this special yeast, it would take a lot longer. depending on the location, the preservation of the juice etc etc...  nonetheless, the second the grape is pressed, you have a beyond negligible amount of alcohol. You make it seem as if in an hour you would have a bottle of wine in your hands, which is a joke.

I understand your point, natural yeasts attack the juice immediately, but the alcohol is non-existent when talking about that time frame.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 08:03:23 PM by Sloga » Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2010, 08:14:52 PM »

Father Lance,

Greetings in Christ's love!

I still think there is a difference between our two Churches on this point.  The Orthodox demand wine, and red wine, and wine that is living (i.e., not chemically stopped.)  Anything less is considered unsuitable.  If you have a priest's Sluzhebnik all these requirements are printed at the back in fine print.   The fact that some suffering priests in the gulag had to resort to fermenting raisins does not establish a precedent and I doubt that under normal circumstances where red wine is available the Lord will deign to take up residence in fermented raisin water.

When I attend Catholics masses for things such as weddings and funerals, what I see in the glass chalices is not red wine.  Instead it is of a yellow colour. Does that happen in the States?  Do you know the story behind it?

Father Ambrose

Fr. Ambrose,

In the Catholic Church as long as the wine is made from grapes the color does not matter.  Many churches in the US use white wine which makes cleaning the purificators easier.



Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2010, 08:24:37 PM »

Dear Father Deacon,

It would truly surprise me if priests in the Soviet gulag were eating grapes.  laugh What they did was take a few raisins, steep them in a little water and allow them to ferment.

Father Ambrose

You prove my point.  Once the grapes/raisin are pressed the fermentation process begins and you have wine, new wine with minimal alcohol content, but alcohol none the less.  The Catholic Church only prohibits pasteurized grape juice in which all the alcohol has been destroyed.

I have been working in the wine making business now for 5 years. We are capable of utilizing yeasts and fermenting juice into full blown wine at almost 13% in two weeks. WITHOUT this special yeast, it would take a lot longer. depending on the location, the preservation of the juice etc etc...  nonetheless, the second the grape is pressed, you have a beyond negligible amount of alcohol. You make it seem as if in an hour you would have a bottle of wine in your hands, which is a joke.

I understand your point, natural yeasts attack the juice immediately, but the alcohol is non-existent when talking about that time frame.

Sloga,

I know what you are saying, but from the Catholic Church's view as long as the process is not impeded and some alcohol is present it is valid matter.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2010, 08:25:40 PM »

Father Lance,

Greetings in Christ's love!

I still think there is a difference between our two Churches on this point.  The Orthodox demand wine, and red wine, and wine that is living (i.e., not chemically stopped.)  Anything less is considered unsuitable.  If you have a priest's Sluzhebnik all these requirements are printed at the back in fine print.   The fact that some suffering priests in the gulag had to resort to fermenting raisins does not establish a precedent and I doubt that under normal circumstances where red wine is available the Lord will deign to take up residence in fermented raisin water.

When I attend Catholics masses for things such as weddings and funerals, what I see in the glass chalices is not red wine.  Instead it is of a yellow colour. Does that happen in the States?  Do you know the story behind it?

Father Ambrose

Fr. Ambrose,

In the Catholic Church as long as the wine is made from grapes the color does not matter.  Many churches in the US use white wine which makes cleaning the purificators easier.



Do you know *when* the Catholic Church permitted white wine?   In recent decades?  Why was the change away from red wine made?
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2010, 08:35:12 PM »

Pope St Julius (+352) who wrote mustum was valid is a saint in both Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

None the less, there are a number of teachings from pre-Schism Western saints which are rejected.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2010, 08:37:39 PM »

The requirement for the Orthodox does not centre on the percentage of alcohol but that it must be red wine and that it must be living (i.e., chemically stopped wine is not permissable.)

Those qualities both sound like they are based on symbolic comparison to the Blood of Christ, no?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,049


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2010, 01:20:28 PM »

Father Lance,

Greetings in Christ's love!

I still think there is a difference between our two Churches on this point.  The Orthodox demand wine, and red wine, and wine that is living (i.e., not chemically stopped.)  Anything less is considered unsuitable.  If you have a priest's Sluzhebnik all these requirements are printed at the back in fine print.   The fact that some suffering priests in the gulag had to resort to fermenting raisins does not establish a precedent and I doubt that under normal circumstances where red wine is available the Lord will deign to take up residence in fermented raisin water.

When I attend Catholics masses for things such as weddings and funerals, what I see in the glass chalices is not red wine.  Instead it is of a yellow colour. Does that happen in the States?  Do you know the story behind it?

Father Ambrose

Fr. Ambrose,

In the Catholic Church as long as the wine is made from grapes the color does not matter.  Many churches in the US use white wine which makes cleaning the purificators easier.



Do you know *when* the Catholic Church permitted white wine?   In recent decades?  Why was the change away from red wine made?
I don't know but the old Catholic Ecyclopedia states white wine is valid, which would indicate long standing practice. 
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Tags: communion 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.091 seconds with 52 queries.