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Author Topic: Liturgical Reform  (Read 8797 times) Average Rating: 0
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jbc1949
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« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2004, 04:09:39 PM »

JBC: what difference does it make what the LATIN says?  Smiley SHould we not look rather at the original language of the text in question?

The official text of the mass is Latin, not Koine and not Aramaic, just as the official biblical translation to be used by the RCC in the liturgy is the Vulgate or more accurately now the Neo-Vulgate.  Yes, I recoginize the Orthodox position on the Septuagint given that most of the O.T. references in the N.T. are from the Septuagint.  BTW, I believe that even the "corrected" Latin Vulgate--the neo Vulgate--is based upon the Septuagint with corrections.  Nevertheless, I'm not sure whether or not the Neo-Vulgate uses the Masoretic numbering for the psalter.  Are there any Latinists out there that can address this?

I mentioned above a corrected Septuagint.  I recall reading in my dim, dark past that there have been many corruptions that have entered the Septuagint over the centuries--copy errors if you will--and that much prudence is required to render a faithful translation of the Greek O.T. text in the light of scholarly studies.  I wonder if something similar was done vis-a-vis the Neo-Vulgate in light of its corrections to St. Jerome's translations beyond that which had already been accomplished under the authority of Pope Clement VIII?Huh

The recent Vatican document on liturgical translations, Liturgiam Authenticam, requires vernacular translations of the Mass to be more faithful to the authorized Latin text, including biblical readings.  Catholic Bp. Trautman, one of the USCCB's most vocal critics of Liturgiam Authenticam alleges that modern biblical scholarship has gone beyond the already outdated Neo-Vulgate and that translations closer to the Latin text are not proclaimable.  This is bunk!  Liturgiam Authenticam in its discussion on bible translations to be used in the RC mass only requires that whenever there are variant readings of the Hebrew and Koine (and there are plenty I believe!),  the reading to be used is the reading standardized in the Neo-Vulgate.

I opine that Orthodox Fr. Jack Sparks and company are taking a similiar translation approach in their efforts to produce the long awaited and welcomed complete Orthodox study bible based on the Septuagint O.T. and Koine N.T..  They are taking the New KJV text, comparing it with the Septuagint, and correcting it where it differs from the Septuagint text.  His team is also making corrections to the New KJV N.T. in its translation of the Koine.  I look forward to buying one of these bibles when it comes out sometime in CY 2005.  Deus volante!

I too prefer translations into English based upon the Septuagint, appropriately corrected by legitimate, non-agenda based scholarship (if this is possible).  But I also prefer the common biblical names that are derived from the Masoretic text (e.g., Isaiah vs. Isaias) rather than the Greek text.  As far as the Psalter, give me the Holy Transfiguration Monastery's Psalter of the Seventy any day!

Regarding the original language for the institution narrative in the biblical text per your reply . . . that would be the Greek, right?  Doesn't Hoi Polloi (sp?) translate literally as For the Many?
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2004, 06:12:03 PM »

Nevertheless, I'm not sure whether or not the Neo-Vulgate uses the Masoretic numbering for the psalter.  Are there any Latinists out there that can address this?

The Neo-Vulgate uses the Masoretic numbering, with the LXX numbering in parenthesis, at least according to the online version.  

http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_index_lt.html
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« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2004, 06:47:54 PM »

My Douay OT mirrors the Septuagint in numbering, I will use the Douay Psalms until I can get my hands on a copy of the Septuagint Psalms which I have seen at my favorite bookshop in Pasadena.

Chow,
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jbc1949
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« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2004, 06:58:40 PM »

The Neo-Vulgate uses the Masoretic numbering, with the LXX numbering in parenthesis, at least according to the online version.  

http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_index_lt.html

Thanks for the web reference.  BTW, the versification numbering looks identical to the Jerome Vulgate--similar to the Septuagint???  I'll have to check my Psalter of the Seventy when I get home.  I do recall that the psalter in your link is the Pian Psalter.  The Pisan Psalter doesn't work with Gregorian Chant.  The "powers that be" developed an alternate chant form--I do not recall its name just right now.
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« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2004, 08:06:06 PM »

JBC: The text in question is taken from the scriptures - the scriptures written in Greek.  Shouldn't we look to the original language rather than translate from a translation?  ESPECIALLY as it pertains to something as important as the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Smiley
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jbc1949
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« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2004, 09:09:35 PM »

JBC: The text in question is taken from the scriptures - the scriptures written in Greek.  Shouldn't we look to the original language rather than translate from a translation?  ESPECIALLY as it pertains to something as important as the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Smiley

Well what does the Greek say?  "For All" or "For Many?"

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« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2004, 10:39:25 PM »

Thanks for the web reference.  BTW, the versification numbering looks identical to the Jerome Vulgate--similar to the Septuagint???  

I presumed the LXX numbering was the one that generally seems to be "one off" the Masoretic numbering.  I wasn't aware the Vulgate numbering and the LXX numbering were also different...what's the difference?
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jbc1949
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« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2004, 01:03:45 AM »

I presumed the LXX numbering was the one that generally seems to be "one off" the Masoretic numbering.  I wasn't aware the Vulgate numbering and the LXX numbering were also different...what's the difference?

I don't know about the Septuagint as I don't have a copy and I don't read Greek.  Looking at my Douay-Rheims for Ps 50 (the Miserere), my favorite psalm, the "Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy great mercy is verse 3.

My Psalter of the Seventy for Ps 50 has the corresponding verse marked down as the 1st verse.

My Oxford published RSV for Ps 51 has the corresponding verse marked down as 1st verse as with the Psalter of the Seventy.

I don't think that the Septuagint and Masoretic texts had verse numbers.  This was a later innovation during the Middle Ages, I think.  I believe that it was an English bishop who originated the innovation.  I foget his name just now.


Jim C.
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« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2004, 12:44:30 PM »

In the Masoretic text, Psalm 9 of the Septuagint is Psalms 9 & 10. So Psalm 10 in the Septuagint is Psalm 11 in the Masoretic and so on until we get to Psalm 147 in the Masoretic, which is Psalms 146 & 147 in the Septuagint.

John.

PS. In Greek, Septuagint is Evdo-MI-konda and is represented in the Greek numerical system by "o" (omicron)
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