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LBK
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« Reply #90 on: December 23, 2011, 05:20:57 PM »

Our hymn-writers looked at them too and knew what they meant.
There aren't any Orthodox hymns that go,

"You LARPed as a human, O Christ God,
Feigning ignorance for didactic purposes.
You asked Martha a rhetorical question,
Thus instructing her in perfect faith."

From the Matins of the Raising of Lazarus:

O Fountain of wisdom and foreknowledge, You asked the companions of Martha when You came to Bethany: “Where have you laid my friend Lazarus?” Shedding for him tears of tender love, You called to him in Your compassion and raised him by Your voice, though he was four days dead; for You are Giver of Life and Lord.

O Christ, You became man, taking human nature from the Virgin, and as man You asked where Lazarus was buried, although as God You were not ignorant of this.

Displaying Your two energies, O Saviour, You made manifest Your two natures: for You are both God and man.

Though You are the Abyss of knowledge, You asked where they have laid the body of Lazarus. For it was Your purpose, O Giver of Life, to raise him from the dead.

The sisters of Lazarus stood beside Christ and, lamenting with bitter tears, they said to Him: “O Lord, Lazarus is dead.” And though as God He knew the place of burial, yet He asked them, “Where have you laid him?” Coming to the tomb, He called Lazarus that was four days dead; and he arose and worshipped the Lord who had raised him.

Foreknowing all things as Creator, You warned the disciples at Bethany, saying: “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep today.” And, though You were not ignorant, You asked: “Where have you laid him?” Weeping as a man, You prayed to the Father; You called Your friend Lazarus from hell, O Lord, and raised him when he had been four days dead. Therefore we cry to You: Accept, O Christ our God, the praise we dare to offer, and count us all worthy of Your glory.

You prayed to the Father, not because You are in need of any help, but to fulfil the mystery of Your Incarnation; and so, almighty Lord, You raised up a corpse that was four days dead.

You who are by nature uncircumscribed was circumscribed in the flesh; coming to Bethany, O Master, as man You weep over Lazarus, and by Your power as God You raise him on the fourth day from the dead.

As mortal man You asked where Lazarus was buried; as Maker, You raised him from the dead by Your royal command. Hell was afraid of him when he cried out to You: “Praise the Lord and exalt Him above all to all ages.

As a mortal, You search for Lazarus; as God, You raise him by Your word, though he was four days dead. Therefore we sing Your praises to all ages.

O Christ, who is the Resurrection and the Life of man, standing by the tomb of Lazarus You have confirmed our faith in Your two natures, O forbearing Lord, proving that You were born from the pure Virgin as both God and man. For as man You asked, “Where is he buried?” and as God by Your life-giving command You raised him from the dead on the fourth day.

You have granted to Your disciples, O Christ, tokens of Your divinity, but You have humbled Yourself among the crowds, wishing to conceal it from them. Foreknowing all things as God, You have foretold to the apostles the death of Lazarus; yet at Bethany, when in the presence of the people, you have as man asked where Your friend was buried, being ignorant of this. But then You raised him four days after he was dead, and so he rendered manifest Your power as God. O almighty Lord, glory to You.



Care to comment, NicholasMyra?
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« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2011, 09:06:21 PM »

*YAWN*

The naivete of fundamentalism knows not the shores of Protestantism.

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« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2011, 11:13:14 PM »

*YAWN*

The naivete of fundamentalism knows not the shores of Protestantism.

Where is the "fundamentalism" here?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 11:13:26 PM by Iconodule » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: December 24, 2011, 12:41:43 AM »

Our hymn-writers looked at them too and knew what they meant.
There aren't any Orthodox hymns that go,

"You LARPed as a human, O Christ God,
Feigning ignorance for didactic purposes.
You asked Martha a rhetorical question,
Thus instructing her in perfect faith."

Okay, but who are you actually arguing with then? Nobody is denying that Christ was ignorant in his human nature.

How can you be ignorant in a nature?
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« Reply #94 on: December 24, 2011, 12:50:30 AM »

In honor of Nick:

"Thy most divine Split-Personality
Didst makes the cockles of Nestorius' heart warm.
For to say that Thou didst have a divine mind only is a heresy,
Yet here we chant unto Thee: Apollinarianism!"
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 12:51:33 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: December 24, 2011, 01:01:26 AM »

We should make a cynical hymnology corpus.

the Diogenelogion.

"Thou didst inhibit thy human tear ducts, O Word,
For thou didst not seek to teach men unmanliness,
But permitting thy diminished flesh to cry a little,
You tricked all who surrounded you into thinking you were a man"

You really have to draw out "thinking" when you sing it.
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« Reply #96 on: December 24, 2011, 02:20:50 AM »

"When Thou didst proclaim to Thy disciples, O Christ our God,
That Thou didst not know the day or hour of Thy return;
Thou didst skew their apperception with Thy all-resplendent brain,
Swallowing up human nature in perfect divinity!"
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« Reply #97 on: December 24, 2011, 03:33:24 AM »

*YAWN*

The naivete of fundamentalism knows not the shores of Protestantism.

Where is the "fundamentalism" here?

It goes to method. No really wants to have that discussion around here.
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« Reply #98 on: December 24, 2011, 12:28:44 PM »

We should make a cynical hymnology corpus.

the Diogenelogion.

"Thou didst inhibit thy human tear ducts, O Word,
For thou didst not seek to teach men unmanliness,
But permitting thy diminished flesh to cry a little,
You tricked all who surrounded you into thinking you were a man"

You really have to draw out "thinking" when you sing it.

St. Cyril would be proud!  Wink
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Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. - Psalm 36
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« Reply #99 on: December 26, 2011, 05:56:00 PM »

Our hymn-writers looked at them too and knew what they meant.
There aren't any Orthodox hymns that go,

"You LARPed as a human, O Christ God,
Feigning ignorance for didactic purposes.
You asked Martha a rhetorical question,
Thus instructing her in perfect faith."

Okay, but who are you actually arguing with then? Nobody is denying that Christ was ignorant in his human nature.

How can you be ignorant in a nature?

The same way you can die in a nature, suffer in a nature, etc.
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
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« Reply #100 on: December 26, 2011, 06:06:40 PM »

Our hymn-writers looked at them too and knew what they meant.
There aren't any Orthodox hymns that go,

"You LARPed as a human, O Christ God,
Feigning ignorance for didactic purposes.
You asked Martha a rhetorical question,
Thus instructing her in perfect faith."

Okay, but who are you actually arguing with then? Nobody is denying that Christ was ignorant in his human nature.

How can you be ignorant in a nature?

The same way you can die in a nature, suffer in a nature, etc.
What way is that?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 06:06:53 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
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« Reply #101 on: December 26, 2011, 06:15:01 PM »

Our hymn-writers looked at them too and knew what they meant.
There aren't any Orthodox hymns that go,

"You LARPed as a human, O Christ God,
Feigning ignorance for didactic purposes.
You asked Martha a rhetorical question,
Thus instructing her in perfect faith."

Okay, but who are you actually arguing with then? Nobody is denying that Christ was ignorant in his human nature.

How can you be ignorant in a nature?

The same way you can die in a nature, suffer in a nature, etc.
What way is that?


One person, 100% human, 100% God... how does that work?

Really, LBK posted the most substantial contribution to this thread. Your "hymns" are mocking a position which can't be found in the teaching of the Church.
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry
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Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
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« Reply #102 on: December 26, 2011, 06:28:58 PM »

*YAWN*

The naivete of fundamentalism knows not the shores of Protestantism.

Where is the "fundamentalism" here?

It goes to method. No really wants to have that discussion around here.

I don't know what you mean- the "fundy" word has been used by so many different people for so many different reasons that it's become a meaningless rhetorical gimmick like "gnostic" or "Western". Someone maintaining that Moses literally saw God's back could also be called a "fundamentalist" by certain definitions. I'm not actually sure what's being mocked here- what the Church actually teaches doesn't seem to be an object of much interest. The ironic hymns are fun but really, what is your actual point?
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry
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Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
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« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2011, 06:33:33 PM »

Your "hymns" are mocking a position which can't be found in the teaching of the Church.
Well, I certainly hope the positions I'm mocking cannot be found in the teaching of the Church.
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« Reply #104 on: December 26, 2011, 07:00:27 PM »

*YAWN*

The naivete of fundamentalism knows not the shores of Protestantism.

Where is the "fundamentalism" here?

It goes to method. No really wants to have that discussion around here.

I don't know what you mean- the "fundy" word has been used by so many different people for so many different reasons that it's become a meaningless rhetorical gimmick like "gnostic" or "Western". Someone maintaining that Moses literally saw God's back could also be called a "fundamentalist" by certain definitions. I'm not actually sure what's being mocked here- what the Church actually teaches doesn't seem to be an object of much interest. The ironic hymns are fun but really, what is your actual point?

I can see how we can be confused given our bromance power couple status, but I don't think I've ever written a hymn, not even an ironic one.

Are you responding to me?

The declarative sentences of mine you quoted seem pretty clear.

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« Reply #105 on: December 26, 2011, 09:24:13 PM »

I still don't think God has a back, though.

Exodus 33:23 :"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Keble, how do you understand this verse?

Well, I don't understand it. I mean, I understand the part about not being able to see God's face: that is explained all over scripture. But I do not see how to assign meanings to the rest of the passage. I also note that, unlike most everything else in Exodus, the passage is not acted out. You would expect there to be another passage further along that runs something like, "So Moses stood on the rock as the LORD directed; and the LORD God put him in a cleft and covered him with his hand. Then the glory of the LORD passed by, and the LORD took away his hand; and Moses saw the back of the LORD; but he did not see his face." That is almost invariably the pattern with Exodus: the command is given in one text, and then acted out shortly thereafter. But there is no such passage in this case. Nor do I know of other passages that interpret this passage: the divine hand acts, but it does not, as best I remember, serve as a covering (or perhaps scripture would tell us of the divine facepalm  Wink ).

It does not bother me to not have an explanation of this, and I am wary of those who feel they must.
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« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2011, 10:15:54 AM »

Your "hymns" are mocking a position which can't be found in the teaching of the Church.
Well, I certainly hope the positions I'm mocking cannot be found in the teaching of the Church.

Have you encountered any teachers (whether writers or clergymen you've met) maintaining that Christ faked humanity in any way (not a rhetorical question- sometimes one hears crazy stuff)?.

BTW I found this stuff in St. Athanasius' Third Discourse Against the Arians:

Quote
Therefore this is plain to every one, that the flesh indeed is ignorant, but the Word Himself, considered as the Word, knows all things even before they come to be. For He did not, when He became man, cease to be God ; nor, whereas He is God does He shrink from what is man's; perish the thought; but rather, being God, He has taken to Him the flesh, and being in the flesh deifies the flesh. For as He asked questions in it, so also in it did He raise the dead; and He showed to all that He who quickens the dead and recalls the soul, much more discerns the secret of all. And He knew where Lazarus lay, and yet He asked; for the All-holy Word of God, who endured all things for our sakes, did this, that so carrying our ignorance, He might vouchsafe to us the knowledge of His own only and true Father, and of Himself, sent because of us for the salvation of all, than which no grace could be greater.


Quote
Now why it was that, though He knew, He did not tell His disciples plainly at that time, no one may be curious where He has been silent; for 'Who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counsellor' but why, though He knew, He said, 'no, not the Son knows,' this I think none of the faithful is ignorant, viz. that He made this as those other declarations as man by reason of the flesh. For this as before is not the Word's deficiency , but of that human nature whose property it is to be ignorant. And this again will be well seen by honestly examining into the occasion, when and to whom the Saviour spoke thus. Not then when the heaven was made by Him, nor when He was with the Father Himself, the Word 'disposing all things ,' nor before He became man did He say it, but when 'the Word became flesh.' On this account it is reasonable to ascribe to His manhood everything which, after He became man, He speaks humanly. For it is proper to the Word to know what was made, nor be ignorant either of the beginning or of the end of these (for the works are His), and He knows how many things He wrought, and the limit of their consistence. And knowing of each the beginning and the end, He knows surely the general and common end of all. Certainly when He says in the Gospel concerning Himself in His human character, 'Father, the hour has come, glorify Your Son ,' it is plain that He knows also the hour of the end of all things, as the Word, though as man He is ignorant of it, for ignorance is proper to man , and especially ignorance of these things. Moreover this is proper to the Saviour's love of man; for since He was made man, He is not ashamed, because of the flesh which is ignorant , to say 'I know not,' that He may show that knowing as God, He is but ignorant according to the flesh.
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Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
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« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2011, 04:41:02 PM »

Have you encountered any teachers (whether writers or clergymen you've met) maintaining that Christ faked humanity in any way (not a rhetorical question- sometimes one hears crazy stuff)?.
Yes.
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« Reply #108 on: December 27, 2011, 05:17:25 PM »

I am glad I saw this, because I thought 'written' was the correct term. Now that I know it's not, I'll quit saying that.  Smiley

And I won't say "temples" anymore, except for where my Hindu friends worship!
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« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2011, 03:06:55 AM »

And I won't say "temples" anymore, except for where my Hindu friends worship!

Temple is way cooler and more exotic than boring old church.
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« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2011, 09:08:20 AM »

And I won't say "temples" anymore, except for where my Hindu friends worship!

Temple is way cooler and more exotic than boring old church.

Fane, me boys, is the word we want
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry
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Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
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« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2011, 04:40:58 PM »

This was cool, thank you.
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« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2011, 04:50:52 PM »

This was cool, thank you.
You and Habte share a themesong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP-f8TDb2n4&feature=related
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« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2011, 04:54:07 PM »


hahaha laugh I was wondering when someone would bring this up. A toast to you, good sir.  Wink
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« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2012, 04:46:51 AM »

Fr. Hopko speaks out against referring to icons as "written":

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/our_use_of_words

starts at ~23:30
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 04:48:05 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
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