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Author Topic: Icons are not Written  (Read 6886 times) Average Rating: 0
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2011, 04:51:41 PM »

I thought it worthwhile to resurrect this thread since I see this "written, not painted" schtick popping up recently.

Almost as bad as the "God's actions in the Old Testament were just anthropomorphism" schtick.

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« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2011, 04:55:23 PM »

I thought it worthwhile to resurrect this thread since I see this "written, not painted" schtick popping up recently.

Almost as bad as the "God's actions in the Old Testament were just anthropomorphism" schtick.



The Hebrews simply painted God out to be something He wasn't.
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« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2011, 04:57:17 PM »

And the temple stuff is odd as well.

The people of God, the Church is the Temple of God. Not buildings made by hands.

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« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2011, 04:57:59 PM »

I thought it worthwhile to resurrect this thread since I see this "written, not painted" schtick popping up recently.

Almost as bad as the "God's actions in the Old Testament were just anthropomorphism" schtick.



The Hebrews simply painted God out to be something He wasn't.
Living?

But seriously. Christian anthropology denies the possibility of God being anthropomorphic.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 04:59:23 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2011, 05:02:17 PM »

And the temple stuff is odd as well.

The people of God, the Church is the Temple of God. Not buildings made by hands.
Moscow has no hands, because Moscow is ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible, ever-existing and eternally Moscow.

The early peoples of Rus had a primitive conception of Moscow, thus they assigned Moscow human traits. But Moscow merely appears to have hands to those who live outside of the true Moscow; in the inner life of Moscow, Moscow is supra-chirotic and is beyond all hands.

Moscow's buildings can therefore be called temples.
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« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2011, 05:04:23 PM »

I thought it worthwhile to resurrect this thread since I see this "written, not painted" schtick popping up recently.

Almost as bad as the "God's actions in the Old Testament were just anthropomorphism" schtick.



The Hebrews simply painted God out to be something He wasn't.
Living?

But seriously. Christian anthropology denies the possibility of God being anthropomorphic.

They painted by numbers, I mean come on, how do you take this seriously?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0422.htm#28

If only they had been writing . . .
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« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2011, 05:07:33 PM »

I thought it worthwhile to resurrect this thread since I see this "written, not painted" schtick popping up recently.

Almost as bad as the "God's actions in the Old Testament were just anthropomorphism" schtick.



The Hebrews simply painted God out to be something He wasn't.
Living?

But seriously. Christian anthropology denies the possibility of God being anthropomorphic.

They painted by numbers, I mean come on, how do you take this seriously?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0422.htm#28

If only they had been writing . . .

Are you saying that Hebrew artists were the genesis of connect-the-dots?
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2011, 05:21:37 PM »

I thought it worthwhile to resurrect this thread since I see this "written, not painted" schtick popping up recently.

Almost as bad as the "God's actions in the Old Testament were just anthropomorphism" schtick.



The Hebrews simply painted God out to be something He wasn't.
Living?

But seriously. Christian anthropology denies the possibility of God being anthropomorphic.

They painted by numbers, I mean come on, how do you take this seriously?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0422.htm#28

If only they had been writing . . .

Are you saying that Hebrew artists were the genesis of connect-the-dots?

Duetoirony, the fifth Book of the Law, wasn't even written down. That is if you believe the unChristian tongue of the Hebrews.
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« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2011, 06:38:08 PM »

I am glad I saw this, because I thought 'written' was the correct term. Now that I know it's not, I'll quit saying that.  Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2011, 07:26:23 PM »

I am glad I saw this, because I thought 'written' was the correct term. Now that I know it's not, I'll quit saying that.  Smiley

Biro, the most inscrutable of us all!

It ain't "wrong". I doubt you were using it with the pretension, which I believe is the point here.

Are you even capable of pretense? Call it whatever you like.

Some folks just like to make a point using an odd sounding word in the English language because, well I won't put it any better than it has been put above.





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« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2011, 12:20:43 AM »

Fr. Anthony Salzman of St. Philothea Greek Orthodox Church in Athens, Georgia (US) is an established iconographer who studied in Greece for 6 years. He explained to me that icons are written because they are a visual form of the Gospel, and not just some fancy painting of a random scene. Their intent is to spread the good news of Jesus Christ, whether it be through the depiction of a saint or a scene from scripture.

It is for this reason we say icons are "written," and not "painted."

This is how I see things, as well. It may be that the expression "icons are written" is silly when it comes to the original Greek and resulting English (mis?)translation, but over time, it seems that expression has come to signify much more than the creation of icons: it symbolizes the nature of icons as works entirely different from secular works of art.
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« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2011, 04:03:44 AM »

The Father Thomas Hopko fan club strikes again.

You guys have won me over on so many subjects. I just find it amusing how I so often recognise Father Tom's words in your typing.

I still don't think God has a back, though.
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« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2011, 04:09:26 AM »

I'm with you, akimori. The more folks try to justify icon "writing". the more I cringe. Or laugh, when it gets too silly.
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« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2011, 04:30:28 AM »

I still don't think God has a back, though.
Yes he does:




Let's start a new thread: "Did the infant/youth Jesus have toys?"

*cue 50,000 stoic patristic quotes about the evils of childhood diversion, plus a link to a talk given by Fr. Seraphim of Platina*

Here's one:

"For hear, O Christian! Christ, being the eternal Logos, contained within himself the changeless knowledge of the potential edification of playing with all the toys that have, will be, or could have been. However, for the sake of the dispensation, he may have permitted his flesh to undergo the enjoyment of toys in order to fulfill the prophecy of Playmobilus the Younger, which reads:

'He shall consume many legos,
yet they shall pass unobstructed therethrough;
And by his own arm, let the logs of lincoln be builded'

Thus the Logos did not preserve the properties of giggling, laughing, falling, or general merry-making undiminished; but being that self-same Word, he was so totally over kids stuff.
"

-Elder Andrei Vomilogrinch of Winter Warlock Monastery in Kiev
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« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2011, 10:29:11 AM »

I'm more interested in how Pasadi answers this.
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« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2011, 12:39:30 AM »


This is how I see things, as well. It may be that the expression "icons are written" is silly when it comes to the original Greek and resulting English (mis?)translation, but over time, it seems that expression has come to signify much more than the creation of icons: it symbolizes the nature of icons as works entirely different from secular works of art.

Come to signify by whom? A small group of people who have agreed amongst themselves to hijack the English language and claim that their created jargon is necessary to differentiate an icon from a secular painting? By reverse application, we would have to use a word other than written to communicate that the Gospels are different than the works of Shakespeare. Perhaps we should say that the Gospels are "etched"? After all, they were etched into papyrus scrolls originally...or perhaps they are "translated": the Divine Logos spake a word unto our Fathers the Apostles, so they "translated" that Logos into the Logoi...or perhaps they were "breathed"? After all, they were etched under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit...

The point of my hyperbole: use the proper English word. Explain the concept using the proper English word. Don't hijack English in order to manufacture a secret, mystical-sounding jargon that is nonsensical to the very people we are trying to evangelize.
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« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2011, 12:47:18 AM »

Quote
Come to signify by whom? A small group of people who have agreed amongst themselves to hijack the English language and claim that their created jargon is necessary to differentiate an icon from a secular painting? By reverse application, we would have to use a word other than written to communicate that the Gospels are different than the works of Shakespeare. Perhaps we should say that the Gospels are "etched"? After all, they were etched into papyrus scrolls originally...or perhaps they are "translated": the Divine Logos spake a word unto our Fathers the Apostles, so they "translated" that Logos into the Logoi...or perhaps they were "breathed"? After all, they were etched under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit...

The point of my hyperbole: use the proper English word. Explain the concept using the proper English word. Don't hijack English in order to manufacture a secret, mystical-sounding jargon that is nonsensical to the very people we are trying to evangelize.

Couldn't have put it better myself. An excellent analysis!
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« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2011, 01:41:29 AM »

I still don't think God has a back, though.
Yes he does:


Dude, you know I'm talking the pre-incarnate God but well-played.
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« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2011, 02:23:11 AM »

I still don't think God has a back, though.
Yes he does:




Let's start a new thread: "Did the infant/youth Jesus have toys?"

*cue 50,000 stoic patristic quotes about the evils of childhood diversion, plus a link to a talk given by Fr. Seraphim of Platina*

Here's one:

"For hear, O Christian! Christ, being the eternal Logos, contained within himself the changeless knowledge of the potential edification of playing with all the toys that have, will be, or could have been. However, for the sake of the dispensation, he may have permitted his flesh to undergo the enjoyment of toys in order to fulfill the prophecy of Playmobilus the Younger, which reads:

'He shall consume many legos,
yet they shall pass unobstructed therethrough;
And by his own arm, let the logs of lincoln be builded'

Thus the Logos did not preserve the properties of giggling, laughing, falling, or general merry-making undiminished; but being that self-same Word, he was so totally over kids stuff.
"

-Elder Andrei Vomilogrinch of Winter Warlock Monastery in Kiev

Blasphemy! God is in the perfect shape, which we all know is a sphere.
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« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2011, 08:06:07 AM »

I still don't think God has a back, though.

Exodus 33:23 :"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."
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« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2011, 01:47:17 PM »

I still don't think God has a back, though.
Yes he does:




Let's start a new thread: "Did the infant/youth Jesus have toys?"

*cue 50,000 stoic patristic quotes about the evils of childhood diversion, plus a link to a talk given by Fr. Seraphim of Platina*

Here's one:

"For hear, O Christian! Christ, being the eternal Logos, contained within himself the changeless knowledge of the potential edification of playing with all the toys that have, will be, or could have been. However, for the sake of the dispensation, he may have permitted his flesh to undergo the enjoyment of toys in order to fulfill the prophecy of Playmobilus the Younger, which reads:

'He shall consume many legos,
yet they shall pass unobstructed therethrough;
And by his own arm, let the logs of lincoln be builded'

Thus the Logos did not preserve the properties of giggling, laughing, falling, or general merry-making undiminished; but being that self-same Word, he was so totally over kids stuff.
"

-Elder Andrei Vomilogrinch of Winter Warlock Monastery in Kiev

Blasphemy! God is in the perfect shape, which we all know is a sphere.

There is so much about this exchange that is right, I don't know where to start.

Thank you guys.

EDIT: Unfortunately, the avatars and .sigs are not preserved.
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« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2011, 02:48:23 PM »

I still don't think God has a back, though.

Exodus 33:23 :"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Keble, how do you understand this verse?
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« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2011, 02:55:52 PM »

I still don't think God has a back, though.

Exodus 33:23 :"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Keble, how do you understand this verse?

God was intentionally unclear with Moses, who did not understand sophisticated philosophy. He was relying on the fact that people familiar with Plotinus would correctly decipher in the future that he meant meant his apophatic not-face, not-hand and not-back. Tongue That or perhaps God has features that are like hands, like a face and like a back (though I suppose that I can agree that we cannot describe them being as such, and so have to be careful to apophatically state that they are not hands but also not not hands, etc.).
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« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2011, 03:18:34 PM »

Is that from the Gospel according to Origen, righteous confounder of the Hebrews?
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« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2011, 03:39:00 PM »

Is that from the Gospel according to Origen, righteous confounder of the Hebrews?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, but not in such a way that implies that God is composed of parts, that God is not simple, or that God gives rise to multiplicity.
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« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2011, 04:22:07 PM »

This is getting kinda lame.

Yes, the Old Testament is not just some metaphor for which we can conveniently substitute Greek philosophy in its place. I don't think that means the Fathers were all going Plotinus on us when they insisted the pre-incarnate God does not have a back or hands.

Your parody of schtick, it seems to me, is in danger of becoming schtick itself.
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« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2011, 04:32:04 PM »

This is getting kinda lame.

Yes, the Old Testament is not just some metaphor for which we can conveniently substitute Greek philosophy in its place. I don't think that means the Fathers were all going Plotinus on us when they insisted the pre-incarnate God does not have a back or hands.

Your parody of schtick, it seems to me, is in danger of becoming schtick itself.

Well, how do you understand God having a back and hands and a face? Surely God has these things in some fashion, or else he would not have spoken to Moses in such a manner.
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« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2011, 04:43:36 PM »

I think what you said below is mostly on point.

I am not irked by your taking a particular view of the matter, it is more the flippant treatment of the sincere efforts of the Fathers to understand the Scriptures with which I take issue. While products of their time and place and quite capable of being wrong, they were far from stupid men.

I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

I still don't think God has a back, though.

Exodus 33:23 :"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Keble, how do you understand this verse?

God was intentionally unclear with Moses, who did not understand sophisticated philosophy. He was relying on the fact that people familiar with Plotinus would correctly decipher in the future that he meant meant his apophatic not-face, not-hand and not-back. Tongue That or perhaps God has features that are like hands, like a face and like a back (though I suppose that I can agree that we cannot describe them being as such, and so have to be careful to apophatically state that they are not hands but also not not hands, etc.).
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« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2011, 05:50:45 PM »

I think what you said below is mostly on point.

I am not irked by your taking a particular view of the matter, it is more the flippant treatment of the sincere efforts of the Fathers to understand the Scriptures with which I take issue. While products of their time and place and quite capable of being wrong, they were far from stupid men.

I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

I still don't think God has a back, though.

Exodus 33:23 :"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Keble, how do you understand this verse?

God was intentionally unclear with Moses, who did not understand sophisticated philosophy. He was relying on the fact that people familiar with Plotinus would correctly decipher in the future that he meant meant his apophatic not-face, not-hand and not-back. Tongue That or perhaps God has features that are like hands, like a face and like a back (though I suppose that I can agree that we cannot describe them being as such, and so have to be careful to apophatically state that they are not hands but also not not hands, etc.).

Point taken.
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« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2011, 06:05:34 PM »

I am not irked by your taking a particular view of the matter, it is more the flippant treatment of the sincere efforts of the Fathers to understand the Scriptures with which I take issue. While products of their time and place and quite capable of being wrong, they were far from stupid men.

Thank you for posting that.
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« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2011, 06:52:27 PM »

Sorry for being grumpy and probably de-railing the thread. You know I love you guys.

On top of that, you're quite probably more correct in these matters than I am.

Christ is born!

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« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2011, 10:06:46 PM »

I think what you said below is mostly on point.

I am not irked by your taking a particular view of the matter, it is more the flippant treatment of the sincere efforts of the Fathers to understand the Scriptures with which I take issue. While products of their time and place and quite capable of being wrong, they were far from stupid men.

I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

I'm definitely with you on this one.
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« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2011, 10:15:00 PM »

Quote
I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

An analogy to this from the New Testament is Christ asking Martha and Mary where their brother Lazarus was buried. Being God, it is beyond question that He knew.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 10:15:25 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2011, 10:45:54 PM »

Quote
I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

An analogy to this from the New Testament is Christ asking Martha and Mary where their brother Lazarus was buried. Being God, it is beyond question that He knew.

*eye roll*

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« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2011, 11:09:03 PM »

This is getting kinda lame.

Yes, the Old Testament is not just some metaphor for which we can conveniently substitute Greek philosophy in its place. I don't think that means the Fathers were all going Plotinus on us when they insisted the pre-incarnate God does not have a back or hands.

Your parody of schtick, it seems to me, is in danger of becoming schtick itself.

Well, how do you understand God having a back and hands and a face? Surely God has these things in some fashion, or else he would not have spoken to Moses in such a manner.

I have no problem with the Fathers' interpretation of this. If the Church used Greek philosophy to clarify this, so be it. We can smirk at it as we like, but some of us chose to join this Church knowing what we were getting into, so it seems a bit pointless to me to mock it now.
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« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2011, 01:24:43 AM »

Quote
I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

An analogy to this from the New Testament is Christ asking Martha and Mary where their brother Lazarus was buried. Being God, it is beyond question that He knew.

*eye roll*


I'm just dying to open up that Christological can of worms.
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« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2011, 01:40:08 AM »

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I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

An analogy to this from the New Testament is Christ asking Martha and Mary where their brother Lazarus was buried. Being God, it is beyond question that He knew.
Being God, Christ could not die, so the Nestorians are right.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2011, 01:44:30 AM »

Quote
I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

An analogy to this from the New Testament is Christ asking Martha and Mary where their brother Lazarus was buried. Being God, it is beyond question that He knew.
Being God, Christ could not die, so the Nestorians are right.

Have a look at Vespers and Matins for the Raising of Lazarus.
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« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2011, 02:05:15 AM »

Have a look at Vespers and Matins for the Raising of Lazarus.

It'a not a contradiction; it's a MYSTERY!!!
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« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2011, 04:27:28 AM »

Quote
I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

An analogy to this from the New Testament is Christ asking Martha and Mary where their brother Lazarus was buried. Being God, it is beyond question that He knew.
Being God, Christ could not die, so the Nestorians are right.

Have a look at Vespers and Matins for the Raising of Lazarus.
Have a look at the Holy Scriptures.
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Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
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« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2011, 07:18:43 AM »

Quote
I do not believe the Lord did not know exactly where Adam was when he was "looking" for him in paradise. Perhaps he was indeed looking for Adam, in some sense, but certainly not the ordinary sense.

An analogy to this from the New Testament is Christ asking Martha and Mary where their brother Lazarus was buried. Being God, it is beyond question that He knew.
Being God, Christ could not die, so the Nestorians are right.

Have a look at Vespers and Matins for the Raising of Lazarus.
Have a look at the Holy Scriptures.

Come on, really?
Our hymn-writers looked at them too and knew what they meant.
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« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2011, 03:26:47 PM »

Our hymn-writers looked at them too and knew what they meant.
There aren't any Orthodox hymns that go,

"You LARPed as a human, O Christ God,
Feigning ignorance for didactic purposes.
You asked Martha a rhetorical question,
Thus instructing her in perfect faith."
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Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
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« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2011, 03:32:35 PM »

It should be added to the service as a "another apolytikion"
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« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2011, 03:38:07 PM »

There aren't any Orthodox hymns that go,

"You LARPed as a human, O Christ God,
Feigning ignorance for didactic purposes.
You asked Martha a rhetorical question,
Thus instructing her in perfect faith."

Post of the month?
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« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2011, 03:48:02 PM »

Our hymn-writers looked at them too and knew what they meant.
There aren't any Orthodox hymns that go,

"You LARPed as a human, O Christ God,
Feigning ignorance for didactic purposes.
You asked Martha a rhetorical question,
Thus instructing her in perfect faith."

Okay, but who are you actually arguing with then? Nobody is denying that Christ was ignorant in his human nature.
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry
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Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
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