Author Topic: Results of First North & Central American Episcopal Assembly-Discussion  (Read 11627 times)

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Offline Basil 320

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There is much to discuss about the 1st Episcopal Assembly.  I'm interested in forum members opinion of the separation of Canada from the United States.  I am in complete agreement that Central America should have its own Episcopal Assembly due, primarily, to the difference in cultures between North and Central America, however, I think the separation of Canada from America will diminish the strength of North American Orthodoxy.  The matter of the separate nations can be addressed through autonomy, but I think the Assembly should remain as one, so that ultimately, we become one North American Church.  The histories of most, if not all of the Canadian eparchies, are tied to the American history. 

I am also concerned that the request of the Canadians has something to do with Metropolitan Soterios of Toronto's ego, more than anything else, though I have no proof of that.  (I believe he had expected to be considered for the G. O. Archbishop of America, in the two most recent elections for that position, '96, '99.)

Do we have knowledge of the population size of the jurisdictional entities in Canada?  My sense is the Greeks and Ukrainians are comparatively large, the others are rather small.

Again, what do members of our forum think about separating Canadian and American bishops from a single assembly?.
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Offline genesisone

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I have stated before that I would also argue for a North American Church as an intermediate step to national churches on our continent. I have the memory of that being done in my former Protestant denomination. That denomination, of Methodist heritage, is clearly US in its origins. There are bishops who preside over administrative bodies (I use the term "bishop" for that is their word - they do not claim apostolic succession). There was a time that bishops' duties straddled the border. Eventually, in 1974 one bishop was elected to preside over all the Canadian conferences, and only the Canadian conferences, with a view to eventual autonomy from the US body. This did indeed happen by 1990.

I personally was concerned at the time about numbers. Did we have enough capable people to carry the load? (My question did not deal with concerns about the people who were in leadership, merely the number of available people.) Was this an ego issue for certain individuals? Questions not unlike yours. As it turned out, I was gratefully pleased at the results. The transition was smooth. There is still cooperation in many areas between the US and Canadian churches, but each are administered quite separately.

This is the sort of model I can see for us in North America. Start by realigning dioceses so that there is no straddling the border. The Canadian bishops and parishes can meet separately within the context of a larger church with a view to planning for the future.

Offline Aristobolus

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Might the Canadians feel the same way about this line of thinking that many in the forum feel about their perception that the Old World has been slow to give the U.S. autocephaly?  Canada as a nation and as a church does not need our big brotherhood.  If Poland or Finland for instance have autocephaly, then Canada with its vast potential as a nation and a church warrants the same.  This will only strenthen the arm of Orthodoxy on this continent.

Offline IreneOlinyk

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There is much to discuss about the 1st Episcopal Assembly.  I'm interested in forum members opinion of the separation of Canada from the United States.  I am in complete agreement that Central America should have its own Episcopal Assembly due, primarily, to the difference in cultures between North and Central America, however, I think the separation of Canada from America will diminish the strength of North American Orthodoxy.  The matter of the separate nations can be addressed through autonomy, but I think the Assembly should remain as one, so that ultimately, we become one North American Church.  The histories of most, if not all of the Canadian eparchies, are tied to the American history. 

I am also concerned that the request of the Canadians has something to do with Metropolitan Soterios of Toronto's ego, more than anything else, though I have no proof of that.  (I believe he had expected to be considered for the G. O. Archbishop of America, in the two most recent elections for that position, '96, '99.)

Do we have knowledge of the population size of the jurisdictional entities in Canada?  My sense is the Greeks and Ukrainians are comparatively large, the others are rather small.

Again, what do members of our forum think about separating Canadian and American bishops from a single assembly?.

Thank you for introducing this topic of separate council for the bishops of Canada.  I applaud the suggestion and I hope a Canadian Episcopal Council will be established.  The history of orthodoxy in Canada is different that in the USA.  We need our own council.

The two largest churches are the Greek Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.  Both are under the EP.  The MP had about 13 small parishes mostly rural in Alberta but with the recent 4th wave immigration is expanding in Eastern Canada.
I believe the hierarchs for a Canadian council headed by Metropolitan Sotirios would include:

1. Metropolitan Sotirious (GOA-EP)
2. Metropolitan John (UOCC-EP)
3. Archbishop Yurij of Toronto (UOCC-EP)
4.  Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton. (UOCC-EP)
5. Bishop Andrij of Saskatoon  (UOCC-EP)
6. Bishop Job, (MP)
7. Bishop Seraphim (OCA)

I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

One of the issues to be settled is the status of a Ukrainian Orthodox Church outside of Meadow Lake SK.  This is a small rural parish, All Saints Ukrainian orthodox Church, was founded by Ukrainian immigrants and is historically been part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.  It is part of the North Battleford District served by Fr. Taras Udodd.  The parish has approximately 24 members.  It is quite common in rural Saskatchewan to have small churches every few miles.  But the days of large farm families are long gone.  The rural parishes are served on rotation and people can go to a neighbouring UOCC church or into town.

http://www.uocc.ca/en-ca/parishes/parishdetails.asp?ParishID=305

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Might the Canadians feel the same way about this line of thinking that many in the forum feel about their perception that the Old World has been slow to give the U.S. autocephaly?  Canada as a nation and as a church does not need our big brotherhood.  If Poland or Finland for instance have autocephaly, then Canada with its vast potential as a nation and a church warrants the same.  This will only strenthen the arm of Orthodoxy on this continent.

The Orthodox Church of Poland is autocephalous and the Orthodox population is made up of ethnic Ukrainians & Belarusians.  It received its autocephaly from the EP. The UOCC (EP) has a good relationship with the Polish Orthodox Church and we have received about 10 priests from them in the 1980's.

The Orthodox Church of Finland is autonomous under the EP.  If ther ever was an autocephalous Orthodox Church in Canada, it only makes sense that autocephaly would be received from its mother church the EP.  The two largests churches  in Canada are both under the EP.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

There is a Diocese of Ottawa, Eastern Canada and Upstate New York under Bishop Alexander.
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Offline ialmisry

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First, to start out with what I think I can say from living in America, the title of the OCA should be changed immediately to the OCNA-the Orthodox Church in North America, if not the Orthodox Church of North America.

As for the Canadians, I'm leery of speaking for them, and I'm not sure that they all speak with a single voice (much like the situation in Ukraine). In fact, the Ukraine situation is more like the US-Canadian, rather than the "Diaspora"-"Mother Church," except that the US is the Mother Church of Canada, both by jurisdiction and as a whole, the Romanians perhaps being the only exception.

Pat. Kyril has brought up the issue of transnational versus national Churches, but I am afraid that he is not the right messenger.  If Canadians opted for a transnational model (such as in Antioch), the primate of the OCNA should by no means be the bishop of Washington, but should be based in NYC.  Only if the Canadians opt for a national model should the OCNA revert to the OCA, New York come under Washington, and the OCA primate reside there.

If a miracle would happen, and the Antiochians and the OCA merge, I'd have a Catholicos (the traditional title given by Antioch to her daughter Churches e.g. the Georgians, Armenians, Assyrians) as primate in NYC, with a Metropolitan in Washington and in Toronto (and maybe Quebec City), a number of Archbishops under them, with suffragan bishops under them.  A number of the Archbishops would be charged to be the defender of the Greek/Arab/Romanian/Ukrainian etc. usage.

That's one reason why I would be reluctant to split Canada and the US just yet: I"d like the greater numbers and history of the Ukrainians in Canada to organize the Ukrainians and their usage on the continent. I also fear that without the modiration of being attached to the rest of the cotinent, Met. Sotiros' POV (it doesn't qualify as "vision") would set the Church back in Canada quite a bit.

Since Bishop Job, Archb. Seraphim, Bishop Irenee, Bishop Alexander, Bishop Joseph and Archb. Nathniel-all of Canada (although the last two based in Detroit) showed up, I'm not buying Met. Sotirios' excuse.

Given the acts of Met. Athenagoras, the Phanar's exarch in Mexico, I'm not sure cutting Central and South America loose is a good idea either.  I notice, btw, that Bishop Alejo's signature is on the EA document at the OCA, but not on some (he's on the GOA version now).
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 12:23:33 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Might the Canadians feel the same way about this line of thinking that many in the forum feel about their perception that the Old World has been slow to give the U.S. autocephaly?  Canada as a nation and as a church does not need our big brotherhood.  If Poland or Finland for instance have autocephaly, then Canada with its vast potential as a nation and a church warrants the same.  This will only strenthen the arm of Orthodoxy on this continent.

The Orthodox Church of Poland is autocephalous and the Orthodox population is made up of ethnic Ukrainians & Belarusians.  It received its autocephaly from the EP.

It received its present autocephaly from its Mother Church, the Patriarchate of Moscow.  It has ethnic Poles in it.  St. Joseph in Wheaton (OCA) has a mission which Poland's Metropolitan came and blessed for the Polish Orthodox we have here.

Quote
The UOCC (EP) has a good relationship with the Polish Orthodox Church and we have received about 10 priests from them in the 1980's.

The Orthodox Church of Finland is autonomous under the EP.  If ther ever was an autocephalous Orthodox Church in Canada, it only makes sense that autocephaly would be received from its mother church the EP.


The Phanar in no way is the Mother Church of Orthodoxy in Canada: the Russian Archdiocese/OCA sent the first priests, received the first converts, consecrated the first bishop (who became primate of the Archdiocese after the Bolshevik Revolution).  In 1903, this jurisdiction was recognized by the Canadian government as having jurisdiction in Canada.

Quote
The two largests churches  in Canada are both under the EP.

In 1903, everyone was under the Russian Archdiocese.
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Offline ag_vn

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I believe the hierarchs for a Canadian council headed by Metropolitan Sotirios would include:

1. Metropolitan Sotirious (GOA-EP)
2. Metropolitan John (UOCC-EP)
3. Archbishop Yurij of Toronto (UOCC-EP)
4.  Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton. (UOCC-EP)
5. Bishop Andrij of Saskatoon  (UOCC-EP)
6. Bishop Job, (MP)
7. Bishop Seraphim (OCA)

And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

There is a Diocese of Ottawa, Eastern Canada and Upstate New York under Bishop Alexander.

And also Bishop Joseph of Los Angeles who is locum tenens of the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, which has parishes in Alberta and British Columbia.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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I believe the hierarchs for a Canadian council headed by Metropolitan Sotirios would include:

1. Metropolitan Sotirious (GOA-EP)
2. Metropolitan John (UOCC-EP)
3. Archbishop Yurij of Toronto (UOCC-EP)
4.  Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton. (UOCC-EP)
5. Bishop Andrij of Saskatoon  (UOCC-EP)
6. Bishop Job, (MP)
7. Bishop Seraphim (OCA)

And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

There is a Diocese of Ottawa, Eastern Canada and Upstate New York under Bishop Alexander.

And also Bishop Joseph of Los Angeles who is locum tenens of the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, which has parishes in Alberta and British Columbia.

I believe that the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA also has parishes in Canada. This diocese is currently administered by its locum tenens Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh. Also, +Seraphim, a native of Alberta, is the Archbishop (not Bishop) of Ottawa and Canada. He is assisted by Bishop Irenee of Quebec City--another native Canadian. BTW, are these two the only native Canadians?

Offline ialmisry

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I believe the hierarchs for a Canadian council headed by Metropolitan Sotirios would include:

1. Metropolitan Sotirious (GOA-EP)
2. Metropolitan John (UOCC-EP)
3. Archbishop Yurij of Toronto (UOCC-EP)
4.  Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton. (UOCC-EP)
5. Bishop Andrij of Saskatoon  (UOCC-EP)
6. Bishop Job, (MP)
7. Bishop Seraphim (OCA)

And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

There is a Diocese of Ottawa, Eastern Canada and Upstate New York under Bishop Alexander.

And also Bishop Joseph of Los Angeles who is locum tenens of the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, which has parishes in Alberta and British Columbia.
Bishop Irene of Quebec (OCA), and Archb. Nathaniel (OCA-Romanian Episcopate).

Looking at all these names, it seems that Met. Sotirios is the only one missing in NYC this last month, which casts doubts on his request which he couldn't/wouldn't deliver in person. Something is up (something similiar it seems to Bishop Alejo's disappearance and reappearance on the official list me thinks).
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Offline ialmisry

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I believe the hierarchs for a Canadian council headed by Metropolitan Sotirios would include:

1. Metropolitan Sotirious (GOA-EP)
2. Metropolitan John (UOCC-EP)
3. Archbishop Yurij of Toronto (UOCC-EP)
4.  Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton. (UOCC-EP)
5. Bishop Andrij of Saskatoon  (UOCC-EP)
6. Bishop Job, (MP)
7. Bishop Seraphim (OCA)

And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

There is a Diocese of Ottawa, Eastern Canada and Upstate New York under Bishop Alexander.

And also Bishop Joseph of Los Angeles who is locum tenens of the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, which has parishes in Alberta and British Columbia.

I believe that the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA also has parishes in Canada. This diocese is currently administered by its locum tenens Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh. Also, +Seraphim, a native of Alberta, is the Archbishop (not Bishop) of Ottawa and Canada. He is assisted by Bishop Irenee of Quebec City--another native Canadian. BTW, are these two the only native Canadians?
Also present and accounted for last month. That leaves only Met. Sotirios.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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I believe the hierarchs for a Canadian council headed by Metropolitan Sotirios would include:

1. Metropolitan Sotirious (GOA-EP)
2. Metropolitan John (UOCC-EP)
3. Archbishop Yurij of Toronto (UOCC-EP)
4.  Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton. (UOCC-EP)
5. Bishop Andrij of Saskatoon  (UOCC-EP)
6. Bishop Job, (MP)
7. Bishop Seraphim (OCA)

And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

There is a Diocese of Ottawa, Eastern Canada and Upstate New York under Bishop Alexander.

And also Bishop Joseph of Los Angeles who is locum tenens of the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, which has parishes in Alberta and British Columbia.

I believe that the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA also has parishes in Canada. This diocese is currently administered by its locum tenens Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh. Also, +Seraphim, a native of Alberta, is the Archbishop (not Bishop) of Ottawa and Canada. He is assisted by Bishop Irenee of Quebec City--another native Canadian. BTW, are these two the only native Canadians?
Also present and accounted for last month. That leaves only Met. Sotirios.

Sounds like the good Metropolitan is enough of a reason, all by himself, to resist splitting Canada from the United States. But, whom am I kidding? The decision will be made by our colonial masters from the glorious (if not one foot in the grave) Mother Church of us all.

Offline ialmisry

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I believe the hierarchs for a Canadian council headed by Metropolitan Sotirios would include:

1. Metropolitan Sotirious (GOA-EP)
2. Metropolitan John (UOCC-EP)
3. Archbishop Yurij of Toronto (UOCC-EP)
4.  Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton. (UOCC-EP)
5. Bishop Andrij of Saskatoon  (UOCC-EP)
6. Bishop Job, (MP)
7. Bishop Seraphim (OCA)

And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

There is a Diocese of Ottawa, Eastern Canada and Upstate New York under Bishop Alexander.

And also Bishop Joseph of Los Angeles who is locum tenens of the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, which has parishes in Alberta and British Columbia.

I believe that the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA also has parishes in Canada. This diocese is currently administered by its locum tenens Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh. Also, +Seraphim, a native of Alberta, is the Archbishop (not Bishop) of Ottawa and Canada. He is assisted by Bishop Irenee of Quebec City--another native Canadian. BTW, are these two the only native Canadians?
Also present and accounted for last month. That leaves only Met. Sotirios.

Sounds like the good Metropolitan is enough of a reason, all by himself, to resist splitting Canada from the United States. But, whom am I kidding? The decision will be made by our colonial masters from the glorious (if not one foot in the grave) Mother Church of us all.
LOL. Not all of us: we in Alexandria and Antioch aren't the daughters of the upstart on the Bosphoros.

I'm wondering how well the colonial administration is going.  The exarch in Australia is evidently refusing to hold an EA, there hasn't been one in Great Britain.
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Offline ag_vn

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According to Metropolitan Joseph, after the speeches/suggestions of the hierarchs from Canada and Central America, all hierarchs in NYC unanimously decided to ask Patriarch Bartholomew to set the splitting of the USA and Canada and merging of Central and South America as an agenda item for the next Pan-Orthodox Conference.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 02:15:03 PM by ag_vn »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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According to Metropolitan Joseph, after the speeches/suggestions of the hierarchs from Canada and Central America, all hierarchs in NYC unanimously decided to ask Patriarch Bartholomew to set the splitting of the USA and Canada and merging of Central and South America as an agenda item for the next Pan-Orthodox Conference.

Thanks, ag_vn; I was aware of that. I was merely trying to make a satirical point.

Offline mike

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I believe the hierarchs for a Canadian council headed by Metropolitan Sotirios would include:

1. Metropolitan Sotirious (GOA-EP)
2. Metropolitan John (UOCC-EP)
3. Archbishop Yurij of Toronto (UOCC-EP)
4.  Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton. (UOCC-EP)
5. Bishop Andrij of Saskatoon  (UOCC-EP)
6. Bishop Job, (MP)
7. Bishop Seraphim (OCA)

And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I am not sure if the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a bishop in Canada.

There is a Diocese of Ottawa, Eastern Canada and Upstate New York under Bishop Alexander.

And also Bishop Joseph of Los Angeles who is locum tenens of the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, which has parishes in Alberta and British Columbia.

I believe that the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA also has parishes in Canada. This diocese is currently administered by its locum tenens Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh. Also, +Seraphim, a native of Alberta, is the Archbishop (not Bishop) of Ottawa and Canada. He is assisted by Bishop Irenee of Quebec City--another native Canadian. BTW, are these two the only native Canadians?
Also present and accounted for last month. That leaves only Met. Sotirios.
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« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 04:07:00 PM by mike »
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Offline Father H

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Right.   Looking at it from Met. Soterios' point of view:

The two largest EP jurisdictions are divided into Canadian and US with distinct primates and synods:  The Greek Archdiocese and the Ukrainian Archdiocese.   Met. Soterios may have saw this as the Patriarch trying to appease those who have a single jurisdiction in both countries (Antiochian, OCA, etc.), but as nullifying the essential setup of the patriarchal jurisdictions and the reasons for this setup.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 06:55:22 PM by FatherHLL »

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Quote
I believe that the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA also has parishes in Canada. This diocese is currently administered by its locum tenens Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh. Also, +Seraphim, a native of Alberta, is the Archbishop (not Bishop) of Ottawa and Canada. He is assisted by Bishop Irenee of Quebec City--another native Canadian. BTW, are these two the only native Canadians?

What do you mean by "native Canadians"  members of the "First Nations" or "aboriginals."  Or even "Metis"?

Archbishop Yurij of the UOCC was born in Canada in Lachine Quebec.  Metrpolitan Ivan of the UOCC was born near Buchanin SK.

Offline IreneOlinyk

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And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I have been to one of the churches in Toronto which is made up of Macedonian speaking people who are from an early immigration.  A very small parish with people who originally came from an area that was part of Bulgaria in the early 20th century as opposed to Macedonians who came after WW2 from Greece.  I have not visited the parish in Brampton also near Toronto, but have heard it is also Macedonian in origin.  Inn addition Toronto has at least another Macedonian parish, very large & active under the Macedonian Church in the Republic of Macedonia.

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Quote
The Phanar in no way is the Mother Church of Orthodoxy in Canada: the Russian Archdiocese/OCA sent the first priests, received the first converts, consecrated the first bishop (who became primate of the Archdiocese after the Bolshevik Revolution).  In 1903, this jurisdiction was recognized by the Canadian government as having jurisdiction in Canada.

Orthodox parishes in Canada were organized in Canada that were not under the MP.  There were itinerent priests visiting Canada.  For example, priests sent to visit both Romanian and Ukrainian from Bukovyna block settlements in Western Canada.  If you read the histories of various ethnic groups in Canada that were historically Orthodox, you can read about services held by travelling Orthodox priests.

  In 1915 there was a court case in Manitoba for ownership of a parish claimed by the Russian Orthododx Church.  The case was won by the parish and was recored in the documents of the legal proceedings as a Ukrainian Orthodox Church/ parish and not a Russian Orthodox Church/ parish.


Offline ialmisry

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Right.   Looking at it from Met. Soterios' point of view:

The two largest EP jurisdictions are divided into Canadian and US with distinct primates and synods:  The Greek Archdiocese and the Ukrainian Archdiocese.   Met. Soterios may have saw this as the Patriarch trying to appease those who have a single jurisdiction in both countries (Antiochian, OCA, etc.), but as nullifying the essential setup of the patriarchal jurisdictions and the reasons for this setup.
My understanding is that Met. Sotirios was long going in one direction, and Archb. Iakovos of blessed memory was going in another, and it had nothing to do with the Canadian-US border. That can be that Archb. Iakovos signed Ligonier, Met. Sotirios did not. The former got deposed, the latter got rewarded with his own colony, er, eparchy. The Ukraininia bishop present at Ligonier supposedly told the Phanar that Archb. Iakokos was going to proclaim himself Patriarch of North America, and the rest of the Ukrainians came in after Ligonier and during the Phanar's butchering of it (and the GOANSA).  Ironically, the OCA's idea of reaching out to the Ukrainians was the germ of the idea that blossomed in the Ligonier meeting.

Again, if this was the common view of Canada, why does Met. Sotirios' absence from the Canadian episcopacy at NYC last month stand out?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline John of the North

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First, to start out with what I think I can say from living in America, the title of the OCA should be changed immediately to the OCNA-the Orthodox Church in North America, if not the Orthodox Church of North America.

The issue is not so much with the name, but the prevailing attitude which the name reflects.

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If a miracle would happen, and the Antiochians and the OCA merge, I'd have a Catholicos (the traditional title given by Antioch to her daughter Churches e.g. the Georgians, Armenians, Assyrians) as primate in NYC, with a Metropolitan in Washington and in Toronto (and maybe Quebec City), a number of Archbishops under them, with suffragan bishops under them.  A number of the Archbishops would be charged to be the defender of the Greek/Arab/Romanian/Ukrainian etc. usage.

Why would Quebec City get a Metropolitan?? This country has been throwing the Quebecois bones for the last 347 years, trying to appease them. Someone should tell them they lost at the Plains of Abraham, they should get over it, or move back to France.

As for defending any "ethnic" usage, the goal should be to develop our own local Canadian customs. If they want to be ethnic, they can do it at home or at the cultural centre. The Church should be reserved for worshipping God, not preserving traditions from the Old Country.

Quote
That's one reason why I would be reluctant to split Canada and the US just yet: I'd like the greater numbers and history of the Ukrainians in Canada to organize the Ukrainians and their usage on the continent.

You expected the Orthodox Church to be organised?? Setting the bar high much??

Quote
I also fear that without the moderation of being attached to the rest of the continent, Met. Sotirios' POV (it doesn't qualify as "vision") would set the Church back in Canada quite a bit.

Ah yes, whatever will we do without those Yankees from the south to lead us.

Quote
Since Bishop Job, Archb. Seraphim, Bishop Irenee, Bishop Alexander, Bishop Joseph and Archb. Nathniel-all of Canada (although the last two based in Detroit) showed up, I'm not buying Met. Sotirios' excuse.

What excuse??

Looking at all these names, it seems that Met. Sotirios is the only one missing in NYC this last month, which casts doubts on his request which he couldn't/wouldn't deliver in person. Something is up (something similiar it seems to Bishop Alejo's disappearance and reappearance on the official list me thinks).

His Grace Bishop George also did not attend.

Orthodox parishes in Canada were organized in Canada that were not under the MP.  There were itinerent priests visiting Canada.  For example, priests sent to visit both Romanian and Ukrainian from Bukovyna block settlements in Western Canada.  If you read the histories of various ethnic groups in Canada that were historically Orthodox, you can read about services held by travelling Orthodox priests.

  In 1915 there was a court case in Manitoba for ownership of a parish claimed by the Russian Orthododx Church.  The case was won by the parish and was recored in the documents of the legal proceedings as a Ukrainian Orthodox Church/ parish and not a Russian Orthodox Church/ parish.

The Ukrainians who arrived in Canada around the turn of the 20th century were initially served by the Russian mission in North America. They eventually had Met. Germanos from the Antiochians as their bishop, and later Archbishop John (Theodorovych), who later resigned after issues arose over his uncanonical consecration as bishop. As far as I know, in 1903 all parishes of Ukrainian-Canadians were being served by the Russian Archdiocese, if anyone at all.

My understanding is that Met. Sotirios was long going in one direction, and Archb. Iakovos of blessed memory was going in another, and it had nothing to do with the Canadian-US border. That can be that Archb. Iakovos signed Ligonier, Met. Sotirios did not. The former got deposed, the latter got rewarded with his own colony, er, eparchy. The Ukraininia bishop present at Ligonier supposedly told the Phanar that Archb. Iakokos was going to proclaim himself Patriarch of North America, and the rest of the Ukrainians came in after Ligonier and during the Phanar's butchering of it (and the GOANSA).  Ironically, the OCA's idea of reaching out to the Ukrainians was the germ of the idea that blossomed in the Ligonier meeting.

Again, if this was the common view of Canada, why does Met. Sotirios' absence from the Canadian episcopacy at NYC last month stand out?

You seem to know why the Metropolitan was not in attendance, which is odd, considering the only published source I know of, has the Metropolitan refusing to say why he wouldn't go.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 09:38:22 PM by Ukiemeister »
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Offline ialmisry

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You don't address the problem that Orthodoxy in Canada doesn't have the Phanar as its mother.
The Phanar in no way is the Mother Church of Orthodoxy in Canada: the Russian Archdiocese/OCA sent the first priests, received the first converts, consecrated the first bishop (who became primate of the Archdiocese after the Bolshevik Revolution).  In 1903, this jurisdiction was recognized by the Canadian government as having jurisdiction in Canada.

Orthodox parishes in Canada were organized in Canada that were not under the MP.  


Yes, we ordinarliy call parishes organized without the blessing of the local bishop "uncanonical," but it seems that many think the New World as a "canon-free zone."

Btw, these parishes you are refering to were also organized after the Russian Archdiocese had organized the Church in Canada.

Quote
There were itinerent priests visiting Canada.

Yes, sent by the Russian Holy Governing Synod as early it seems as the 1870's in Eastern Canada,
http://orthodoxhistory.org/2010/06/the-mysterious-roots-of-orthodoxy-in-canada/#comment-944
And sent one of those iterant priests, the Neo-Martyr Fr. Jacob Kochinsky, the first priest permanently assigned to Canada.
http://orthodoxhistory.org/2010/01/fr-jacob-korchinsky-missionary-and-martyr/
One was also Fr. Arsenij, the Father of Orthodox monastiscism in Canada:
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Archbishop Arseny proclaimed the Gospel of Jesus Christ

During his early ministry in Canada, then Archimandrite Arseny distinguished himself and served his flock by his Gospel preaching. A few allusive quotations shed light on this aspect of +Arseny’s ministry. It was during this time, 1908-1910,

that he gained the affectionate title, “The Canadian Chrysostom” for his extraordinary preaching talents. He became famous for his sermons, which being published in an Orthodox journal of the day, The Canadian Field, eventually were read in Russia by Czar Nicolas II. The Russian Emperor was so taken with his sermons that “in order to thank him for this ‘food for the soul’ (as he referred to the articles written by Archimandrite Arseny) – bestowed on him a gold pectoral cross sent directly to him by His Majesty’s offices.” (Historical Chronology, p. 17)

We hear, for instance, in July 1909, Andrij Herbut, who was Starosta (Board Chairman) of St. Barbara’s Church in Edmonton, Alberta, about one of Arseny’s visits where many came from all over: “But when they heard the famous preacher the hearts of lost sinners were softened and many of them shed tears.” (The Life of Archbishop Arseny, p.10)

Archbishop Arseny exercised oversight of the Church

In all phases of his ministry, +Arseny intentionally looked to many dimensions of the Church’s work, both in its personal and ‘institutional’ dimensions. This is apparent in his development and initiation of many endeavours. Wherever he served for any length of time, he began to establish not only monastic life, but also pastoral schools for training potential clergy. This is evident not only at St. Tikhon’s, where he founded the school that eventually became St. Tikhon’s Seminary, but also in Canada, at Sifton, and in Winnipeg. He gave attention to such practical elements of the Church as stewardship and fundraising, personally eliciting generosity and fostering a pioneering spirit in the work of sustaining “the Mission” in North America.
http://orthodoxhistory.org/2010/05/archbishop-arseny-the-context-for-canonization-part-one/

Quote
For example, priests sent to visit both Romanian and Ukrainian from Bukovyna block settlements in Western Canada.
Quote
No one knows for certain when and where the first Orthodox Divine Liturgy was served in Canada. The first documented Liturgy was served in June 1897 by the Seattle-based missionary Fr. Dimitri Kamnev (assisted by Vladimir Alexandrov, then a reader) in a field belonging to Theodore Nemirsky at Wostok, Alberta. At this Liturgy, approximately  six-hundred Greek Catholics and others were united to the Orthodox faith. Nevertheless, local lore abounds about the presence of much earlier Orthodox activities spread out across the vast Dominion – now the most expansive territorial diocese in world Orthodoxy.
http://orthodoxhistory.org/2010/06/the-mysterious-roots-of-orthodoxy-in-canada/

I've only seen claims by Ukrainian historians of the history of the Church in Canada that the Primate of Bucovina/Bukowina refused to send priests, out of deference to the Russian Archbishop.
He must have gotten over it, because there are some Bucovinean Churches left in Canada and perhaps still in New England.
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St. Nicholas parish in Regina, founded in 1902, is the first Romanian Orthodox parish in North America. Regina is the seat of the Archimandrite administrator of the Western Canada Deanery of the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America (Episcopia Orthodoxa Romana din America), whose presiding Bishop is based near Detroit; in turn this Episcopate is affiliated with the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), based in New York City.
http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/romanian_settlements.html
http://www.st-nicholas.ca/3252.html

Quote
If you read the histories of various ethnic groups in Canada that were historically Orthodox, you can read about services held by travelling Orthodox priests.
I have:
http://www.archdiocese.ca/exhibit/landandpeople.html

Quote
In 1915 there was a court case in Manitoba for ownership of a parish claimed by the Russian Orthododx Church.
Unless it was in postage stamp Manitoba, it should have been in the Russian Orthodox Archdiocese:
Quote
1903
CHAPTER 42
An Ordinance to incorporate the Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church [i.e. the Russian Archdiocese of North America and the Aleutian Islands], and the Parishes and Missions of the said Church. [Assented to June 19, 1903.]

WHEREAS the Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church for North America and tne Aleutian Islands, has petitioned that he, his successors in office having jurisdiction over the said church in Canada, and each of the duly authorised parishes and missions in the Territories be incorporated ; and it is expedient to grant the prayer of the said petition;

THEREFORE the Lieutenant Governor by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Territories enacts as follows :

1. The Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church for North America and the Aleutian Islands and his successors I"corporatlon in office, having jurisdiction in Canada, is hereby incorporated for the purposes mentioned in this Ordinance, under the name of " The Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church," (hereinafter called the corporation sole) with all powers and privileges contained in paragraph 38 of section 8 of chapter 1 of The Consolidated Ordinances 1898....
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=northwest+territories+first+orthodox+church&sig=faH2t_YmTDgfUj0H0s4qkKmIROQ&ei=4GudSubXAY3iMNLJ9JAC&ct=result&id=9l4vAAAAIAAJ&ots=PNecwbNsxP#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quote
The case was won by the parish and was recored in the documents of the legal proceedings as a Ukrainian Orthodox Church/ parish and not a Russian Orthodox Church/ parish.
Doesn't make it anymore canonical than our friends at Holy Ascension, Clifton, NJ and the like.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 10:01:21 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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First, to start out with what I think I can say from living in America, the title of the OCA should be changed immediately to the OCNA-the Orthodox Church in North America, if not the Orthodox Church of North America.

The issue is not so much with the name, but the prevailing attitude which the name reflects.
Agreed, one can do only so much.

If a miracle would happen, and the Antiochians and the OCA merge, I'd have a Catholicos (the traditional title given by Antioch to her daughter Churches e.g. the Georgians, Armenians, Assyrians) as primate in NYC, with a Metropolitan in Washington and in Toronto (and maybe Quebec City), a number of Archbishops under them, with suffragan bishops under them.  A number of the Archbishops would be charged to be the defender of the Greek/Arab/Romanian/Ukrainian etc. usage.

Why would Quebec City get a Metropolitan?? This country has been throwing the Quebecois bones for the last 347 years, trying to appease them. Someone should tell them they lost at the Plains of Abraham, they should get over it, or move back to France.

Now yer talkin' like an American!

Btw, the Metropolitan could help out in Northern New England (our parish has those who grew up there speaking French) and Lousiana.

Quote
As for defending any "ethnic" usage, the goal should be to develop our own local Canadian customs. If they want to be ethnic, they can do it at home or at the cultural centre. The Church should be reserved for worshipping God, not preserving traditions from the Old Country.

It can do both: no one worships God outside the context of a culture. Only when the culture becomes a cult in and of itself do we have a problem.

That's one reason why I would be reluctant to split Canada and the US just yet: I'd like the greater numbers and history of the Ukrainians in Canada to organize the Ukrainians and their usage on the continent.

You expected the Orthodox Church to be organised?? Setting the bar high much??

I didn't say effectively  :P.

I also fear that without the moderation of being attached to the rest of the continent, Met. Sotirios' POV (it doesn't qualify as "vision") would set the Church back in Canada quite a bit.

Ah yes, whatever will we do without those Yankees from the south to lead us.
Be Hellenized.

Since Bishop Job, Archb. Seraphim, Bishop Irenee, Bishop Alexander, Bishop Joseph and Archb. Nathniel-all of Canada (although the last two based in Detroit) showed up, I'm not buying Met. Sotirios' excuse.

What excuse??
Exactly.

My understanding is that Met. Sotirios was long going in one direction, and Archb. Iakovos of blessed memory was going in another, and it had nothing to do with the Canadian-US border. That can be that Archb. Iakovos signed Ligonier, Met. Sotirios did not. The former got deposed, the latter got rewarded with his own colony, er, eparchy. The Ukraininia bishop present at Ligonier supposedly told the Phanar that Archb. Iakokos was going to proclaim himself Patriarch of North America, and the rest of the Ukrainians came in after Ligonier and during the Phanar's butchering of it (and the GOANSA).  Ironically, the OCA's idea of reaching out to the Ukrainians was the germ of the idea that blossomed in the Ligonier meeting.

Again, if this was the common view of Canada, why does Met. Sotirios' absence from the Canadian episcopacy at NYC last month stand out?

You seem to know why the Metropolitan was not in attendance, which is odd, considering the only published source I know of, has the Metropolitan refusing to say why he wouldn't go.
According to the canons:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27932.msg440086/topicseen.html#msg440086
he doesn't get a pass: he has to cough up an explanation, and a good one as well.
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Offline Basil 320

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REPLY #21 ialmisry,  Iakovos. former Archbishop of America, of blessed memory, was never deposed.  He was forced to retire, or as Patriarch Bartholomew and Iakovos' successor Spyridon would say whenever referring to this event, he submitted his "voluntary retirement;" ha, ha!  (His retirement was effective on his 85th birthday, after a 35 year archepiscopal tenure.)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 03:19:29 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline ag_vn

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And Metropolitan Joseph (Bulgarian Patriarchate). The Bulgarian Diocese of the USA, Canada and Australia has 3 parishes in Canada, all of them in Ontario - 2 in Toronto and one in Brampton.

I have been to one of the churches in Toronto which is made up of Macedonian speaking people who are from an early immigration.  A very small parish with people who originally came from an area that was part of Bulgaria in the early 20th century as opposed to Macedonians who came after WW2 from Greece.  I have not visited the parish in Brampton also near Toronto, but have heard it is also Macedonian in origin.  Inn addition Toronto has at least another Macedonian parish, very large & active under the Macedonian Church in the Republic of Macedonia.

Thank you! As far as I know, only the two parishes in Toronto are named Macedono-Bulgarian, the one in Brampton (www.stdimitar.org) is just Bulgarian.

The Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA also has a parish in Toronto and I think it is just Bulgarian, not Macedono-Bulgarian.

Offline rakovsky

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My 2 cents: If for some reason a large majority of Canadians wanted a separate jurisdcition, they should have it, but that would not be my own choice. I am American, but don't look at it from a big-brother perspective, but that I like what I read about Orthodox in Canada and feel we are close enough to remain one jurisdiction.

Orthodox immigration to Canada was the same wave of immigration that came to America. There is no real difference. I think Canada's British-run government persecuted and imprisoned Ukrainians and Carpatho-Russians in WWI who emigrating from the territory of the "Central Powers." But the immigration and demographics were the same waves who came to work in heavy industry, settle on farms in the west, etc. in 1880-1915.

In Canada and the US, Orthodox peoples do share a common culture, background, and experience from immigrants to today. Plus, Canada is in a broad sense like the northern US without complete independence from Britain. The two countries' culture, language, and structure are close enough to continue a common church administration. Otherwise, we could have a situation where each country has an autocephalous church, where church jurisdictions depend on the whims of political borders.

Since Central and South America have close enough shared cultures and languages, I could see them being one church. Although considering the OCA's success in Mexico and absence in South America they should be separate, not to mention that they are two separate continents.
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Offline genesisone

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My 2 cents: If for some reason a large majority of Canadians wanted a separate jurisdcition, they should have it, but that would not be my own choice. I am American, but don't look at it from a big-brother perspective, but that I like what I read about Orthodox in Canada and feel we are close enough to remain one jurisdiction.
But only for the interim - I've said before and will continue to say that such an arrangement is good as an intermediate step. It can help both countries in the present. Without trying to be inflammatory (though I fear without success but please don't try to read more into what I'm saying than the point I'm trying to make :)), it's a bit of "if we stand together, we can deal with the Old Country tyrants". THEN we can deal our own internal issues.

Quote
Orthodox immigration to Canada was the same wave of immigration that came to America. There is no real difference. I think Canada's British-run government persecuted and imprisoned Ukrainians and Carpatho-Russians in WWI who emigrating from the territory of the "Central Powers." But the immigration and demographics were the same waves who came to work in heavy industry, settle on farms in the west, etc. in 1880-1915.
British influenced surely, but not quite British-run during that time period. Otherwise quite correct.

Quote
In Canada and the US, Orthodox peoples do share a common culture, background, and experience from immigrants to today. Plus, Canada is in a broad sense like the northern US without complete independence from Britain. The two countries' culture, language, and structure are close enough to continue a common church administration. Otherwise, we could have a situation where each country has an autocephalous church, where church jurisdictions depend on the whims of political borders.
The cultural similarity is surprisingly superficial. You don't have to scratch very deep to find some very real differences that can be discussed only in Politics, but even those issues reflect an underlying attitude towards community values. I have travelled widely throughout the US and actually feel more like a foreigner with each visit. My wife was born in the US, but has lived in Canada most of her life. She can't get over the difference between her and her US relatives.

There is good reason to eventually have separate Canadian and US churches, but I'm willing to take it a bit more slowly.

Offline Punch

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In Canada and the US, Orthodox peoples do share a common culture, background, and experience from immigrants to today. Plus, Canada is in a broad sense like the northern US without complete independence from Britain. The two countries' culture, language, and structure are close enough to continue a common church administration. Otherwise, we could have a situation where each country has an autocephalous church, where church jurisdictions depend on the whims of political borders.

Since Central and South America have close enough shared cultures and languages, I could see them being one church. Although considering the OCA's success in Mexico and absence in South America they should be separate, not to mention that they are two separate continents.

The similarities between Central and South America, and the US and Canada, are superficial at best.  The US and Canada should have separate jurisdictions.  Central America may be close enough for their own, but South America would have to be divided along some different lines.  There is a misconception among a lot of people in the US that South America is just one large mass of brown people that are all the same.  Not even close.  They don't all even speak the same language.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline ialmisry

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In Canada and the US, Orthodox peoples do share a common culture, background, and experience from immigrants to today. Plus, Canada is in a broad sense like the northern US without complete independence from Britain. The two countries' culture, language, and structure are close enough to continue a common church administration. Otherwise, we could have a situation where each country has an autocephalous church, where church jurisdictions depend on the whims of political borders.

Since Central and South America have close enough shared cultures and languages, I could see them being one church. Although considering the OCA's success in Mexico and absence in South America they should be separate, not to mention that they are two separate continents.

The similarities between Central and South America, and the US and Canada, are superficial at best.  The US and Canada should have separate jurisdictions.  Central America may be close enough for their own, but South America would have to be divided along some different lines.  There is a misconception among a lot of people in the US that South America is just one large mass of brown people that are all the same.  Not even close.  They don't all even speak the same language.
I agree that these are goals we should be heading for, but at present I think we are spread pretty thin so that it cannot be implemented at present.  Then there is that issue with the Churches thinking that they can dictate the future of the Church in the New World without imput from the Church of New World.
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Offline Orest

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Orthodox immigration to Canada was the same wave of immigration that came to America. There is no real difference. I think Canada's British-run government persecuted and imprisoned Ukrainians and Carpatho-Russians in WWI who emigrating from the territory of the "Central Powers." But the immigration and demographics were the same waves who came to work in heavy industry, settle on farms in the west, etc. in 1880-1915.

This is not really correct.  The settlement of the Canadian west was latter than in the USA.  The first large group of Orthodox settlers were Ukrainians from Galicia & Bukovyna (200,000 before WW1) staring in 1891.  The difference is that the Ukrainian settlers came for the free land.  The were pioneers, cutting down trees or brush, first building sod homes and then houses and tilling virgin.  In many areas before the Railroad came to the area.    The main difference between the USA & Canada, besides rural immigration versus urban/ industrial immigration was the block settlements and the bilingual school system of Ukrainian/ English elementary schools.  For example, my family has been in Canada for over 100 years and when my ancestors came, there were Ukrainian-speaking people for miles around.  The same with the German speaking people but in smaller numbers in their case.  This is very different from Slavic immigrants in the USA settling in cities with immigrants of various nationalities around them.

Another major difference is Canada's official policy of multiculturalism versus assimilation.

The whole history of Canada is different from the USA because of the French factor which opened the door for multiculturalism when Ukrainians came in large numbers.  Senator Paul Yuzyk, the father of multiculturalism was Ukrainian and a descendent of Ukrainian pioneers and born in rural Saskatchewan.  A number of universities on the prairies have departments of Ukrainian-Canadian Studies.  

From the 1970’s on the map of Orthodoxy in Canada has changed because of the very large immigration of Greeks who settled in cities and are very well organized.  Yes, I know the Greeks came before that but it wass realy in the 1970's that you suddenly see so many large urban churches being built and so many parish activities.   The Greek Orthodox & the Ukranian Orthodox churches in Canada get along very well. Same with the Serbs & Romanian etc.

As for the topic of this thread, I think since Canada is the second largest country in the world after Russia, in terms of geography, and because of the different history of Canada with its official government policies of multiculturalism leading to its own distinct culture which includes anti-Americanism, Canada needs it own episcopal council.

Offline ialmisry

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Orthodox immigration to Canada was the same wave of immigration that came to America. There is no real difference. I think Canada's British-run government persecuted and imprisoned Ukrainians and Carpatho-Russians in WWI who emigrating from the territory of the "Central Powers." But the immigration and demographics were the same waves who came to work in heavy industry, settle on farms in the west, etc. in 1880-1915.

This is not really correct.  The settlement of the Canadian west was latter than in the USA.  The first large group of Orthodox settlers were Ukrainians from Galicia & Bukovyna (200,000 before WW1) staring in 1891.  The difference is that the Ukrainian settlers came for the free land.  The were pioneers, cutting down trees or brush, first building sod homes and then houses and tilling virgin.  In many areas before the Railroad came to the area.    The main difference between the USA & Canada, besides rural immigration versus urban/ industrial immigration was the block settlements and the bilingual school system of Ukrainian/ English elementary schools.  For example, my family has been in Canada for over 100 years and when my ancestors came, there were Ukrainian-speaking people for miles around.  The same with the German speaking people but in smaller numbers in their case.  This is very different from Slavic immigrants in the USA settling in cities with immigrants of various nationalities around them.

Another major difference is Canada's official policy of multiculturalism versus assimilation.
Ask the Quebecois about that one. Particularly those outside of Quebec and particularly in the West.

Quote
The whole history of Canada is different from the USA because of the French factor which opened the door for multiculturalism when Ukrainians came in large numbers.  Senator Paul Yuzyk, the father of multiculturalism was Ukrainian and a descendent of Ukrainian pioneers and born in rural Saskatchewan.  A number of universities on the prairies have departments of Ukrainian-Canadian Studies.  

From the 1970’s on the map of Orthodoxy in Canada has changed because of the very large immigration of Greeks who settled in cities and are very well organized.  Yes, I know the Greeks came before that but it wass realy in the 1970's that you suddenly see so many large urban churches being built and so many parish activities.   The Greek Orthodox & the Ukranian Orthodox churches in Canada get along very well. Same with the Serbs & Romanian etc.

As for the topic of this thread, I think since Canada is the second largest country in the world after Russia, in terms of geography, and because of the different history of Canada with its official government policies of multiculturalism leading to its own distinct culture which includes anti-Americanism, Canada needs it own episcopal council.
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Offline rakovsky

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It sounds like alot of the cultural differences are whether the glass is half empty or half full. I read that many Ukrainian farmers settled in Kansas too for the land was easier to get then. And as with Canada, I heard a big portion of Greeks came in the mid-late 20th century. I understand there are political differences between Canadians and Americans. But there are big political differences between Southerners and Northerners too. Differences between Americans and Canadians are small compared to those between some countries in South America (Dutch vs. French v Portuguese etc.) and Africa. It's my perspective that the immigration waves of Orthodox to Canada and to America were the same and shared a common experience. I am American and value the immigration that is in both countries. Also, I value Canadians' politics and culture, and think they have alot to offer too.

It's possible that in future generations, the descendants will stop thinking of themselves as ethnic Ukrainians and Greeks, but will identify only as Canadians and Americans. I just like looking at the Orthodox jurisdictional question from the perspective of a common immigration and heritage from Orthodox countries.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Robb

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As for defending any "ethnic" usage, the goal should be to develop our own local Canadian customs. If they want to be ethnic, they can do it at home or at the cultural centre. The Church should be reserved for worshipping God, not preserving traditions from the Old Country.

Yes but the Church has always helped to preserve the already existing traditions which have been handed down for centuries in the "old country".  If you take away the Church then the culture will flounder for faith is the only real support that a national identity can have.  I don't see why everyone feels pressured to assimilate into North American culture as if that culture is the greatest thing the world has ever produced?

Why can't Ukrainian Canadians go on for centuries preserving their won identity, language, and religion as a separate group within Candian society just as they did within the Russian and Austrian empires?  Why can't every other ethnic group do this as well?  Some act as if assimilation and integration into the vast nothingness and hedonism of American society is a given that not only will occur, but MUST occur as far as they are concerned.  This does not have to be the case.  We can all work to preserve our own identifies and encoutrage both linguistic and religious separatism while, at the same time being fully integrated into our host societies in a political and economic way (Just as the French are in Canada).   Many of our ancestors resist the urge to assimilate into the empires and nations which they found themselves subjected to over the course of centuries.  If they who were not as free and prosperous as we in the west could do this then how much more could we today with all our wealth and education work to preserve our cultures, language, and heritage.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

Offline Irish Hermit

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Unraveling the Episcopal Assembly

June 10, 2010
Length: 56:29

In our continuing effort to keep you informed about the recent and on going work of our Hierarchs to bring about administrative unity, we present an extensive interview with Fr. Mark Arey. The discussion centers on the first Episcopal Assembly meeting in New York on May 26-28, 2010. You will hear first hand what took place behind the closed doors of the Assembly and how it impacts all of us for the future. Fr. Mark is the current General Secretary of SCOBA (the Standing Conference of Orthodox Bishops in America) and was the initial Secretary of the Assembly in New York. He was one of very few non-Bishops in the meetings.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/features/unravelling_the_episcopal_assembly