Author Topic: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish  (Read 8349 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #90 on: January 01, 2013, 05:49:21 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?

That's just the way some semitic languages are. In Aramaic it's Alaha which when you break it down is Alah-aa, which means "The-God", or more literally, "God-The". This was all in the post I asked you to read.

Then will it be right to say that once upon a time in Arabia every ilaah was called Allah because the definite article was attached to the word ilaah?  ???
No, as they would have been called, for instance al-ilaah Hubal 'the god Hubal."  Allaah refered to one in particular, hence the modification of the elements, as happened with al-ilaahah becoming Allaat "the goddess."

Btw, in Arabic now, due to Islam's influence, it would be said "al-ma'buud Hubal."  al-ilaah Hubal sounds strange, like "the God Hubal."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #91 on: January 01, 2013, 05:52:49 PM »

Yes, I'm afraid, or rather proud, that it does.
'ilaah means "a god."  Allaah means "God" and ilaahii means "My God" 'ilaah 'ibraahiim "the God of Abraham."

If ilaah means a god, ilaahi Ibrahim means a god of Ibrahim?  ???
No, that would have to be either ilaahun li-Ibrahim "a god to/for Ibrahim" or ilaahun min 'aalihatu Ibraahiim "a god from the gods of Ibrahim."  the genitive Ibrahim's/of Ibrahim automatically makes ilaah god definite.  Which is why Allaah Ibrahim would mean "God is Abraham," never "Ibrahim's God."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2013, 05:56:23 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?
One could say "laa 'ilaaha 'illaa Hubal" or "laa 'ilaaha 'illaa al-'ilaahu Hubal," but not "laa Allaaha 'illa Hubal," nor "laa Allaaha/'ilaaha 'illaa Allaah Hubal" although the last is at least morphological possible.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2013, 05:18:42 PM »
No, that would have to be either ilaahun li-Ibrahim "a god to/for Ibrahim" or ilaahun min 'aalihatu Ibraahiim "a god from the gods of Ibrahim."  the genitive Ibrahim's/of Ibrahim automatically makes ilaah god definite.  Which is why Allaah Ibrahim would mean "God is Abraham," never "Ibrahim's God."

Interesting. In English we always add THE when we use the word God in possessive form. THE God of Abraham, Isaac...

What about the use of the word ilah in other possessive forms? ilahukum ilahen wahid is written in a few Qur'an verses. Is this because it is not possible to say Allahukum (your Allah)?

While speaking English, do you say Allah or always translate it into English as God? Would it be possible for a Christian Arab to say that Allah does not exist in English, but exists only in Arabic?  ???
Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2013, 05:32:47 PM »
i say 'God' when i pray in english and 'Allah' when i pray in arabic.
of course, i use 'Ilah' in the appropriate grammatical parts of the prayer and in the nicene creed (which is discussed in a previous post).

there are subtle differences (to a non native speaker of arabic; probably big differences to a native speaker) between Christians and muslims when they discuss their beliefs in arabic.
you can generally tell by the context if the arabic speaker is Christian or muslim.

arabic speaking Christians are not at all easily confused with muslims (except by those sort of people who ignore the cross around the neck and references to going to church, and assume that fasting plus speaking arabic equals muslim!)
have to go now, time to pray (yes there will be a little arabic used!)
 ;)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2013, 06:02:36 PM »
i say 'God' when i pray in english and 'Allah' when i pray in arabic.
of course, i use 'Ilah' in the appropriate grammatical parts of the prayer and in the nicene creed (which is discussed in a previous post).

there are subtle differences (to a non native speaker of arabic; probably big differences to a native speaker) between Christians and muslims when they discuss their beliefs in arabic.
you can generally tell by the context if the arabic speaker is Christian or muslim.

arabic speaking Christians are not at all easily confused with muslims (except by those sort of people who ignore the cross around the neck and references to going to church, and assume that fasting plus speaking arabic equals muslim!)
have to go now, time to pray (yes there will be a little arabic used!)
 ;)

Thanks. Al-Masih qaam.  :angel:
Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2013, 12:47:36 PM »
No, that would have to be either ilaahun li-Ibrahim "a god to/for Ibrahim" or ilaahun min 'aalihatu Ibraahiim "a god from the gods of Ibrahim."  the genitive Ibrahim's/of Ibrahim automatically makes ilaah god definite.  Which is why Allaah Ibrahim would mean "God is Abraham," never "Ibrahim's God."

Interesting. In English we always add THE when we use the word God in possessive form. THE God of Abraham, Isaac...

What about the use of the word ilah in other possessive forms? ilahukum ilahen wahid is written in a few Qur'an verses. Is this because it is not possible to say Allahukum (your Allah)?
yes, it is not possible: you have to day ilaahukum.

While speaking English, do you say Allah or always translate it into English as God? Would it be possible for a Christian Arab to say that Allah does not exist in English, but exists only in Arabic?  ???
In English it would indicate a Muslim, like saying Yahweh would indicate a reference to ancient Hebrew religious, Jehovah as a puritan ring to it.

Btw, this article on pre-Islamic Arabic inscriptions on pp. 3 and 10 make references to "Allah" in theophoric names, not only pre-Islamic but pre-Christian.
http://www.eis.hu.edu.jo/deanshipfiles/pub103813706.pdf
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth