Author Topic: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish  (Read 8136 times)

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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2012, 08:17:45 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

This is pure speculation rather than a fact. Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism. It is connected to Hubal. Allah had three daughters, one of which was named Allat.
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Offline Cantor Krishnich

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2012, 08:29:16 PM »

Is there an official dogma on the use of the word "God" in English? The Arab-speaking churches have been using the word Allah for centuries. Because that is the correct translation of the word God into Arabic and in many cases, Arabic influenced languages.                        

You seem to confuse the word ilah with allah. In Arabic the word ilah means God whereas allah is a proper noun attributed to a specific deity.

No Incorrect  :). I will try to explain this the best way that I can, sense I'm not fluent in Arabic. In Arabic grammar, words are put together different when they are spoken by themselves for example: "Glory to Thee O Lord, Glory to Thee" is translated as "Majdulaka Ya Rabbul Majdulak", Lord is translated as "Rab" by itself not Rabbul. Another example is "Bismillah" which means "In the name of God", God is translated as "Allah" by itself not Illah. Maybe someone on the forum who speaks Arabic can help in this case?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 08:34:36 PM by Cantor Krishnich »
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2012, 08:35:41 PM »
No Incorrect  :). I will try to explain this the best way that I can sense I'm not fluent in Arabic. In Arabic grammar, words are put together different when they are spoken by themselves for example: "Glory to Thee O Lord, Glory to Thee" is translated as "Majdulaka Ya Rabbul Majdulak", Lord is translated as "Rab" by itself not Rabbul. Another example is "Bismillah" which means "In the name of God", God is translated as "Allah" by itself not Illah. Maybe someone on the forum who speaks Arabic can help in this case?

Your examples disprove your theory. Arabic does not have the word Rabbul, but has the word Allah. The writer of the Qur'an knew that Allah did not mean God, but was the name of a deity in the same way as Rahman:

Say (unto mankind): Cry unto Allah, or cry unto the Beneficent, unto whichsoever ye cry (it is the same). His are the most beautiful names. (Surah 17:110)
Quli odAAoo Allaha awi odAAoo alrrahmana ayyan ma tadAAoo falahu al-asmao alhusna
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2012, 09:17:05 PM »
IIRC "Allah" is the two words "Al" (the definite particle, analogous to our word "the") and "Ilah" (God - and cognate to Eloh)). In Arabic, like a lot of languages, words "glide" together according to rules particular to them, to make them easier to say and better sounding (I know someone here has to know what this is called, I forget).
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 09:17:30 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2012, 10:03:43 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism.

[Citation Needed]

The writer of the Qur'an knew that Allah did not mean God, but was the name of a deity in the same way as Rahman:


[Citation Needed]

Also of note, the Syriac/Aramaic phrase for "The Merciful God" is "Allaha m'Rahmana".

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2012, 10:24:00 PM »
Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.
The Church in Latin does all the time: Deus Pater (>Iuppiter).  Greek Ζεύς comes from the same source, which is apparent in the dialectal Aeolic Δεύς, the Classical oblique cases  Διός, which gives the Modern Greek form of the name,  Δίας.  Conversely, Latin Deus becomes Zeu in Romanian (which however uses the compound Dominus Deus>Dumnezeu for "God").

Elohim is pagan, not only in it using El, one of the gods of the Canaanites (similar to the usage of Deus Pater/Iuppiter/Ζεύς/Dumnezeu, and, btw, Turkish Tanrı), but also is in the plural (the "Plural of Majesty"), literally "Gods."

Both אלוהּ 'eloah and Aramaic אֵלָה 'elah, cognates of Arabic اله 'ilaah, both appear in the Masoretic Bible. Since they often appear in construct state (God of...), they are exactly like the Arabic, where according to the rules of Arabic grammar, Allaah (al-'ilaah) always drops the article al- and becomes 'ilaah in construct.  Syriac, derived from the Aramaic, has the same rule 'alaah-aa "the God" (or rather, God-the, Aramaic suffixing its definite article rather than prefixing it to the noun) being the usual name for God in Aramaic in the time of Christ. When He said God, He said "'elaahaa" (except perhaps when He lived in Egypt, where might have used the Egyptian/Coptic P-Nouti "The God"=God, a usage that going back to the pagans).

In the Jewish Temple of Elphantine in Egypt, built during the Persian occupation, it seems that the Jews worshipped Yahweh with consorts Anat-Bethel (the "Queen of Heaven" Jeremiah warned against) and a son Amish-Bethel.  It doesn't change what the Torah has to say about Yahweh.  Whatever the pagans were doing at Mecca with Allaah similarly doesn't worry me, nor should it concern any Arab Christian.

Btw, in Allaat we have confirmation of the etymology: in an Arabian Temple in Egypt the son of Gershem (Nehemiah 6:1) "King of Qedar" left a bowl inscribed in Aramaic with the dedication to "han-ilaat" i.e. Allat, around the same time that Herodotus records the name as "Alilat", showing the switch from Ancient North Arabian "han-" (related to nunation) to the "al-" of Classical Arabic.  It became fused later into Allat, as did Allah. Forms 'lt, lt, 'ltw (the ending -w found in many proper names) and h-'lt are found in the ancient inscriptions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GcgCErhKGrAC&pg=PA211&dq=han-ilat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ETiUODEM4nS2QXkmYGIBw&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=han-ilat&f=false

In all these (and Greek ho Theos) the definite article serves the function of capitalization, meaning "the one and only" and making it a proper noun/name.  (similarly, Old Arabic has the article prefixed to names which are dropped in current usage).
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2013, 12:26:02 AM »
The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship.




Bringing in the New Year with an ad hominem. Nice!   :police: :angel:
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2013, 10:27:22 AM »
The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship.




Bringing in the New Year with an ad hominem. Nice!   :police: :angel:

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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2013, 01:57:11 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism.

[Citation Needed]


Actually, I had quoted a Qur'an verse, but you left it out!  >:(

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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2013, 01:58:11 PM »

You have the "report" button in the bottom-right corner.
I preferred reporting you to Elohim in my prayers.  ::)
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2013, 02:07:16 PM »

Elohim is pagan, not only in it using El, one of the gods of the Canaanites (similar to the usage of Deus Pater/Iuppiter/Ζεύς/Dumnezeu, and, btw, Turkish Tanrı), but also is in the plural (the "Plural of Majesty"), literally "Gods."

 :o Elohim forgive and guide you! It is the word occurring in God's word. Elohim is plural because it alluded to the Trinity.

Both אלוהּ 'eloah and Aramaic אֵלָה 'elah, cognates of Arabic اله 'ilaah, both appear in the Masoretic Bible. Since they often appear in construct state (God of...), they are exactly like the Arabic, where according to the rules of Arabic grammar, Allaah (al-'ilaah) always drops the article al- and becomes 'ilaah in construct.  Syriac, derived from the Aramaic, has the same rule 'alaah-aa "the God" (or rather, God-the, Aramaic suffixing its definite article rather than prefixing it to the noun) being the usual name for God in Aramaic in the time of Christ. When He said God, He said "'elaahaa" (except perhaps when He lived in Egypt, where might have used the Egyptian/Coptic P-Nouti "The God"=God, a usage that going back to the pagans).

Yet the Bible does not make a distinction between Allah and ilaah. Allah cannot mean God since in that case the Islamic creed would make no sense: there is no God, but God. Allah does not mean God, but a specific God distinguished from all other deities.  ;)

In the Jewish Temple of Elphantine in Egypt, built during the Persian occupation, it seems that the Jews worshipped Yahweh with consorts Anat-Bethel (the "Queen of Heaven" Jeremiah warned against) and a son Amish-Bethel.  It doesn't change what the Torah has to say about Yahweh.  Whatever the pagans were doing at Mecca with Allaah similarly doesn't worry me, nor should it concern any Arab Christian.

Btw, in Allaat we have confirmation of the etymology: in an Arabian Temple in Egypt the son of Gershem (Nehemiah 6:1) "King of Qedar" left a bowl inscribed in Aramaic with the dedication to "han-ilaat" i.e. Allat, around the same time that Herodotus records the name as "Alilat", showing the switch from Ancient North Arabian "han-" (related to nunation) to the "al-" of Classical Arabic.  It became fused later into Allat, as did Allah. Forms 'lt, lt, 'ltw (the ending -w found in many proper names) and h-'lt are found in the ancient inscriptions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GcgCErhKGrAC&pg=PA211&dq=han-ilat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ETiUODEM4nS2QXkmYGIBw&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=han-ilat&f=false

In all these (and Greek ho Theos) the definite article serves the function of capitalization, meaning "the one and only" and making it a proper noun/name.  (similarly, Old Arabic has the article prefixed to names which are dropped in current usage).

But we never say in Greek there is no theos but o Theos! We use both words interchangeably. In John 1:1 the word theos is used without the article, yet it refers to the one and true God (Theos in o Logos).

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Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2013, 03:12:54 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism.

[Citation Needed]


Actually, I had quoted a Qur'an verse, but you left it out!  >:(



Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:16:27 PM by sheenj »

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2013, 03:21:11 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism.

[Citation Needed]


Actually, I had quoted a Qur'an verse, but you left it out!  >:(



Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

Watch out, next he's going to say the Gospel of John, and all that true word of the father stuff, has to go.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:22:14 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2013, 03:22:08 PM »

Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

ISLAM: False god, false prophet, false scripture.

Hubal was the chief idol of Meccan polytheism and the pantheon had been dedicated to him. Now that building is named Baytallah. This shows that Allah is the name given to Hubal.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2013, 03:26:04 PM »

Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

You are free to leave Christ if you think Christianity has pagan concepts.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2013, 03:30:44 PM »

Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

ISLAM: False god, false prophet, false scripture.

Hubal was the chief idol of Meccan polytheism and the pantheon had been dedicated to him. Now that building is named Baytallah. This shows that Allah is the name given to Hubal.

The Gods of Heraclitus, Plato and Aristotle were false as well. That doesn't stop us from using words they coined to describe the Almighty.

Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2013, 03:32:34 PM »

Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

You are free to leave Christ if you think Christianity has pagan concepts.

I don't have to because I realize that the Church has the power to "Baptize" these things and make them her own.

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2013, 03:34:33 PM »
Earlier you were saying its ok to use Tanri as the word for God in Turkish, but Tanri was the proper name of a Turkish pagan god. So it is hypocritical to denounce the word Allah while espousing Tanri (note since people whose first language is not English often seem to be confused about this, its not possibly, its not arguably, it is hypocritical with no alternative).

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #63 on: January 01, 2013, 03:35:08 PM »

The Gods of Heraclitus, Plato and Aristotle were false as well. That doesn't stop us from using words they coined to describe the Almighty.

You are free to use whatever name you wish. I believe that all the gods of the nations (including, Arabs) are idols/demons. Only the God of Israel is true. Elohim el-shaddai. My final words: illa Elohim.  :angel:
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #64 on: January 01, 2013, 03:36:17 PM »
Earlier you were saying its ok to use Tanri as the word for God in Turkish, but Tanri was the proper name of a Turkish pagan god. So it is hypocritical to denounce the word Allah while espousing Tanri (note since people whose first language is not English often seem to be confused about this, its not possibly, its not arguably, it is hypocritical with no alternative).
In that case I also suggested that all Christians use one and same word "Elohim" to avoid confusions.  ;)
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2013, 03:38:54 PM »
Earlier you were saying its ok to use Tanri as the word for God in Turkish, but Tanri was the proper name of a Turkish pagan god. So it is hypocritical to denounce the word Allah while espousing Tanri (note since people whose first language is not English often seem to be confused about this, its not possibly, its not arguably, it is hypocritical with no alternative).
In that case I also suggested that all Christians use one and same word "Elohim" to avoid confusions.  ;)

Abraham didn't come out thin air, he came was born in a pagan civilization that spoke the same language as him and used "Elohim" to refer to pagan gods.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2013, 03:42:01 PM »

Abraham didn't come out thin air, he came was born in a pagan civilization that spoke the same language as him and used "Elohim" to refer to pagan gods.

The God of Israel did not forbid His flock from using the name Elohim while referring to Him. This is the only thing that matters.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2013, 03:42:26 PM »

The Gods of Heraclitus, Plato and Aristotle were false as well. That doesn't stop us from using words they coined to describe the Almighty.

You are free to use whatever name you wish. I believe that all the gods of the nations (including, Arabs) are idols/demons. Only the God of Israel is true. Elohim el-shaddai. My final words: illa Elohim.  :angel:


I'll use whatever name the Church has allowed me to use thank you very much...  :police:

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2013, 03:44:17 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2013, 03:48:17 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2013, 03:53:32 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.

Sola Scriptura Hebraica I see.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2013, 04:00:08 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.

Sola Scriptura Hebraica I see.

Maybe, but I personally prefer it to Lingua Islamica & pagana.  ;D
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2013, 04:05:01 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.

Sola Scriptura Hebraica I see.

Maybe, but I personally prefer it to Lingua Islamica & pagana.  ;D

That's your prerogative. Just don't confuse your opinions with Orthodoxy.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2013, 04:13:20 PM »

That's your prerogative. Just don't confuse your opinions with Orthodoxy.
I hope the Orthodox Church will not forbid me from using the word Elohim or compel me to defile my mouth with the name of a pagan god. If that happened, I would have to leave the Orthodox Church.  :)
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2013, 04:33:17 PM »

That's your prerogative. Just don't confuse your opinions with Orthodoxy.
I hope the Orthodox Church will not forbid me from using the word Elohim or compel me to defile my mouth with the name of a pagan god. If that happened, I would have to leave the Orthodox Church.  :)

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2013, 04:36:06 PM »

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

It is different since in Arabic the word ilah means God. Allah is different from ilah. Allah is also an ilah, but Allah does not mean God.  ;)
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2013, 04:45:05 PM »

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

It is different since in Arabic the word ilah means God. Allah is different from ilah. Allah is also an ilah, but Allah does not mean God.  ;)

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2013, 04:49:23 PM »

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

It is different since in Arabic the word ilah means God. Allah is different from ilah. Allah is also an ilah, but Allah does not mean God.  ;)
Yes, I'm afraid, or rather proud, that it does.
'ilaah means "a god."  Allaah means "God" and ilaahii means "My God" 'ilaah 'ibraahiim "the God of Abraham."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2013, 04:50:15 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2013, 04:52:51 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.

Sola Scriptura Hebraica I see.

Maybe, but I personally prefer it to Lingua Islamica & pagana.  ;D
Lingua Arabica predates Islam (unless one believes what the Muslims claim for Islam pre-existing their Prophet): we have many Christian Arabic Inscriptions predating the Hegira by centuries.

Beware of Sola Scriptura Hebraica!  It led St. Jerome, the Vatican and the Protestants astray.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2013, 04:52:59 PM »

Yes, I'm afraid, or rather proud, that it does.
'ilaah means "a god."  Allaah means "God" and ilaahii means "My God" 'ilaah 'ibraahiim "the God of Abraham."

If ilaah means a god, ilaahi Ibrahim means a god of Ibrahim?  ???
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2013, 04:55:38 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?

That's just the way some semitic languages are. In Aramaic it's Alaha which when you break it down is Alah-aa, which means "The-God", or more literally, "God-The". This was all in the post I asked you to read.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2013, 04:57:30 PM »

Lingua Arabica predates Islam (unless one believes what the Muslims claim for Islam pre-existing their Prophet): we have many Christian Arabic Inscriptions predating the Hegira by centuries.

Beware of Sola Scriptura Hebraica!  It led St. Jerome, the Vatican and the Protestants astray.

I think the problem will be solved if I never pray in Turkish and with Turks who do not use modern Turkish. Luckily, I am a member of the Greek Church. This means there is no possibility and risk of praying in Turkish.  :D
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2013, 04:59:47 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?

That's just the way some semitic languages are. In Aramaic it's Alaha which when you break it down is Alah-aa, which means "The-God", or more literally, "God-The". This was all in the post I asked you to read.

Then will it be right to say that once upon a time in Arabia every ilaah was called Allah because the definite article was attached to the word ilaah?  ???
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2013, 05:00:06 PM »

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

It is different since in Arabic the word ilah means God. Allah is different from ilah. Allah is also an ilah, but Allah does not mean God.  ;)

You can't just say "ilah" to say "God" in Arabic, you have to use the definite article or it is ungrammatical, and it automatically becomes Allah. Not all languages grammar works the same.

Ex. In Gaelic it is the same, "Dia" is "god" but if you are saying "I believe in God" you have to use "an Dia" (literally, "the God"). If you just say "Creidim i Dia" it would mean "I believe in a god."

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2013, 05:04:26 PM »

You can't just say "ilah" to say "God" in Arabic, you have to use the definite article or it is ungrammatical, and it automatically becomes Allah. Not all languages grammar works the same.

Ex. In Gaelic it is the same, "Dia" is "god" but if you are saying "I believe in God" you have to use "an Dia" (literally, "the God"). If you just say "Creidim i Dia" it would mean "I believe in a god."

Are you sure? Even in the Arabic translation of the Nicene Creed I can see that Arab Christians say ilahen haq min ilahen haq (true God from true God) rather than Allahen haq min Allahen haq.  :-\
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2013, 05:22:10 PM »

Elohim is pagan, not only in it using El, one of the gods of the Canaanites (similar to the usage of Deus Pater/Iuppiter/Ζεύς/Dumnezeu, and, btw, Turkish Tanrı), but also is in the plural (the "Plural of Majesty"), literally "Gods."

 :o Elohim forgive and guide you! It is the word occurring in God's word. Elohim is plural because it alluded to the Trinity.
Yes, I'm aware of that, and the use of "We" in Genesis (as the Quran has God speaking in it in imitation).  Doesn't change that the linguistic usage was born amongst pagan speakers (i.e. the Canaanites).

Both אלוהּ 'eloah and Aramaic אֵלָה 'elah, cognates of Arabic اله 'ilaah, both appear in the Masoretic Bible. Since they often appear in construct state (God of...), they are exactly like the Arabic, where according to the rules of Arabic grammar, Allaah (al-'ilaah) always drops the article al- and becomes 'ilaah in construct.  Syriac, derived from the Aramaic, has the same rule 'alaah-aa "the God" (or rather, God-the, Aramaic suffixing its definite article rather than prefixing it to the noun) being the usual name for God in Aramaic in the time of Christ. When He said God, He said "'elaahaa" (except perhaps when He lived in Egypt, where might have used the Egyptian/Coptic P-Nouti "The God"=God, a usage that going back to the pagans).
Yet the Bible does not make a distinction between Allah and ilaah. Allah cannot mean God since in that case the Islamic creed would make no sense: there is no God, but God. Allah does not mean God, but a specific God distinguished from all other deities.  ;)
I don't claim the Islamic Creed makes sense. ;)

Reading Late Antique Greek sources, I've come across the phrase "There is no god except God and he has no partner," something else the Muslim evidently picked up from us.  I'll have to see if I can lay my eyes on the citation, to get the exact Greek wording.

But "There is no god but God" is intelligible to any speaker of English.  So too لا اله الا الله to any Arabic speaker, even if he never heard of Islam.

In the Jewish Temple of Elphantine in Egypt, built during the Persian occupation, it seems that the Jews worshipped Yahweh with consorts Anat-Bethel (the "Queen of Heaven" Jeremiah warned against) and a son Amish-Bethel.  It doesn't change what the Torah has to say about Yahweh.  Whatever the pagans were doing at Mecca with Allaah similarly doesn't worry me, nor should it concern any Arab Christian.

Btw, in Allaat we have confirmation of the etymology: in an Arabian Temple in Egypt the son of Gershem (Nehemiah 6:1) "King of Qedar" left a bowl inscribed in Aramaic with the dedication to "han-ilaat" i.e. Allat, around the same time that Herodotus records the name as "Alilat", showing the switch from Ancient North Arabian "han-" (related to nunation) to the "al-" of Classical Arabic.  It became fused later into Allat, as did Allah. Forms 'lt, lt, 'ltw (the ending -w found in many proper names) and h-'lt are found in the ancient inscriptions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GcgCErhKGrAC&pg=PA211&dq=han-ilat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ETiUODEM4nS2QXkmYGIBw&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=han-ilat&f=false

In all these (and Greek ho Theos) the definite article serves the function of capitalization, meaning "the one and only" and making it a proper noun/name.  (similarly, Old Arabic has the article prefixed to names which are dropped in current usage).

But we never say in Greek there is no theos but o Theos! We use both words interchangeably. In John 1:1 the word theos is used without the article, yet it refers to the one and true God (Theos in o Logos).
Koine Greek is not the same as Demotic Greek.  And no, they are not that interchangeable.

In the case of John 1:1, the article is dropped-like Allaah becoming 'ilaah-according to grammar, in this case Sharp's Rule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granville_Sharp#Classical_grammarian
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2013, 05:22:24 PM »

You can't just say "ilah" to say "God" in Arabic, you have to use the definite article or it is ungrammatical, and it automatically becomes Allah. Not all languages grammar works the same.

Ex. In Gaelic it is the same, "Dia" is "god" but if you are saying "I believe in God" you have to use "an Dia" (literally, "the God"). If you just say "Creidim i Dia" it would mean "I believe in a god."

Are you sure? Even in the Arabic translation of the Nicene Creed I can see that Arab Christians say ilahen haq min ilahen haq (true God from true God) rather than Allahen haq min Allahen haq.  :-\

God is in a different case there so it is declined differently (I think genitive but not completley sure).

Lol, again it is the same in Gaelic: The definite article is dropped when you say "true God of true God," "fìor Dhia o fhìor Dhia."
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 05:26:24 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2013, 05:42:46 PM »

You can't just say "ilah" to say "God" in Arabic, you have to use the definite article or it is ungrammatical, and it automatically becomes Allah. Not all languages grammar works the same.

Ex. In Gaelic it is the same, "Dia" is "god" but if you are saying "I believe in God" you have to use "an Dia" (literally, "the God"). If you just say "Creidim i Dia" it would mean "I believe in a god."

Are you sure? Even in the Arabic translation of the Nicene Creed I can see that Arab Christians say ilahen haq min ilahen haq (true God from true God) rather than Allahen haq min Allahen haq.  :-\
In this case the 'ilaahun (indefinite) means divine substance, rather than the Divine Person/name.  nuurun "light" would never be used as a name of God (which would be "al-Nuur"), but the clause is nuurun min nuurun "light out of light."  It is like the beginning "'u'min bi-ilaahin waaHidin "I believe in One God," in which case the noun 'ilaah has to be indefinite.  "The One God" (saying the basmalah "In the name of the Father...." is al-'ilaah al-waaHid.  This is in parallel to Greek grammar (the "en" "One" requires the article not to be used in Greek, and the Arabic follows suit. Likewise 'aabin "Father" not "al-'aab" the Father. Rabbin waaHidin "Lord" not "al-Rabb al-waaHid" "the One Lord" etc.  Btw, the Liturgical translations in Arabic are not exactly the best, unfortunately.

You can't say allaahin-that would make the noun both definite and indefinite.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #89 on: January 01, 2013, 05:45:48 PM »

Lingua Arabica predates Islam (unless one believes what the Muslims claim for Islam pre-existing their Prophet): we have many Christian Arabic Inscriptions predating the Hegira by centuries.

Beware of Sola Scriptura Hebraica!  It led St. Jerome, the Vatican and the Protestants astray.

I think the problem will be solved if I never pray in Turkish and with Turks who do not use modern Turkish. Luckily, I am a member of the Greek Church. This means there is no possibility and risk of praying in Turkish.  :D
have you seen the Karamanli translations?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth