Topic: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish

[kelfar]

I found this recording, Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish.

Link: http://www.ortodoksluk.org/liturgy-turkce.mp3 (Antiochian Style)


In Christ,
SBDK

[Nazarene]

Nice! Are there anymore Liturgical recordings in Turkish you can share? I love adding more languages to my "Chant Library".

[kelfar]

Let me look and see if I can find readings in Turkish.

[Nazarene]

Awesome. I would personally love to hear Orthodox Chant (whether EO or OO) in Farsi as well, but I think that's asking for the impossible, despite the fact that there are Orthodox Christians in Iran.

[psalm110]

I've found this on Youtube,

http://youtu.be/YL8uBEpxHkc

Turkish Liturgy of St John Chrysostomos -

Are there any more in the Turkish Language ?. Does anyone have Agni Parthene in Turkish ?

[Dominika]

I've found this on Youtube,

http://youtu.be/YL8uBEpxHkc

Turkish Liturgy of St John Chrysostomos -

Are there any more in the Turkish Language ?. Does anyone have Agni Parthene in Turkish ?

It's the same recording which was presented by kelfar in the first post of this topic.
I've heard Agni Parthene in several languages, but not in Turkish, for sure.
I have only one more things in Turkish - Paschal Troparion
http://portal.canto.ru/files/mpeg/sreten/sreten-09.mp3 (the recording cointains this hymn in various languages, Turkish is the third one)

[Alpo]

Does EP allow liturgies in Turkish?

[psalm110]

Does EP allow liturgies in Turkish?

Good question, I'd like to know the answer to that, possibly no? I live in Australia and the Liturgy is not even in English.

[mabsoota]

really beautiful.
am listening to it as i type
 

i think there are farsi liturgies as well.
if anyone could find one, this would be very cool.

[mabsoota]

by the way, there are some bits in arabic.
i was wondering why there are so many similar words, then realised there are a few sentences that have not been translated from arabic.
turkish and arabic do have some similar words, but not identical sentences.

[Theophilos78]

I've found this on Youtube,

http://youtu.be/YL8uBEpxHkc

Turkish Liturgy of St John Chrysostomos -

Are there any more in the Turkish Language ?. Does anyone have Agni Parthene in Turkish ?

This is not Turkish per se. The language unfortunately contains many Arabic and Persian words. The word "Rab", for instance, is not Turkish. There is no Turkish equivalent of this word. This is why I prefer the word Adonai. The same goes for the word "Allah". While translating old liturgical texts into Turkish, I always take "Allah" out.

You can check the following website for the modern Turkish translations of liturgical texts:
http://www.oodegr.com/tourkika/eortes/Theofaneia.htm

[mabsoota]

thanks!
wondered why i understood so much of it!
'ya walidat allah' (oh mother of God) is definitely arabic, i don't thing the surrounding languages that are influenced by (or influenced) arabic have the 'ya' meaning 'oh'.
i will check out your link.
do you have any more turkish audio links?
i learnt a few words of a related (turkic) language, so i want my ears to get used to turkish and then i may study it in the future, if i have time.

[Theophilos78]

thanks!
wondered why i understood so much of it!
'ya walidat allah' (oh mother of God) is definitely arabic, i don't thing the surrounding languages that are influenced by (or influenced) arabic have the 'ya' meaning 'oh'.
i will check out your link.
do you have any more turkish audio links?
i learnt a few words of a related (turkic) language, so i want my ears to get used to turkish and then i may study it in the future, if i have time.

I have no more audio links.

I have recently translated the liturgy of baptism and matrimony into modern Turkish, but I think they have not been put on tape yet.

walidat Allah is pure Arabic! In Turkey the Levantines (mostly Roman Catholics) tend to use the old translations of the liturgical texts and of the Bible. They say "Allah'ın annesi" whereas I prefer saying "Tanrı'nın Annesi" since I use the modern Turkish word Tanrı, which means "the God" when its initial letter is capitalized. Otherwise it means "a god, something that's worshiped".

The Turkish translations of the Bible are mostly awful and even heretical! They name John the Baptist "Yahya" instead of "Youhanna"! They also contain the word İsa instead of Yesua or Yeshua. 

[ialmisry]

I've found this on Youtube,

http://youtu.be/YL8uBEpxHkc

Turkish Liturgy of St John Chrysostomos -

Are there any more in the Turkish Language ?. Does anyone have Agni Parthene in Turkish ?

This is not Turkish per se. The language unfortunately contains many Arabic and Persian words.

Unfortunately?! !

The word "Rab", for instance, is not Turkish. There is no Turkish equivalent of this word. This is why I prefer the word Adonai. The same goes for the word "Allah". While translating old liturgical texts into Turkish, I always take "Allah" out.

Tanrı?

You can check the following website for the modern Turkish translations of liturgical texts:
http://www.oodegr.com/tourkika/eortes/Theofaneia.htm

Interesting!

[Theophilos78]

Yes, brother. I did not mean to offend you or other Arab brothers/sisters here. 

Yet Arabic reminds me of the false prophet and of his false scripture. (I am sick of hearing the adhan 5 times a day!)

Tanrı means God. Rab has no exact equivalent. Some people attempt to translate it as Efendi, but this is not accurate since Efendi is Master/Despota. 

[mabsoota]

i think he means it's unfortunate because it will appear to the turks like it is a 'foreign' religion.
when things are not properly translated, they alienate a lot of people, who feel their language identity strongly and wonder if they have to leave this in order to become Christian.

so if someone is telling turkish people about Jesus Christ, it makes sense to do so in the turkish language. just like english for english speaking people and beautiful, lovely arabic (me? biased?!) for arabic speaking people.

(i know u are a linguist, i hope i have not oversimplified it).

by the way, the creed sounds awesome in turkish.
this bit, i think was well translated because i did not understand it!

p.s. we use the word efendi in arabic too. it would be really weird hearing it used for God!

[Theophilos78]

p.s. we use the word efendi in arabic too. it would be really weird hearing it used for God!

I suggested using the phrase Göksel Egemen for Lord since Egemen means "dominating, sovereign" in Turkish whilst göksel means heavenly. Yet it was found weird and too long to be used in liturgy. "Rab merhamet eyle" is preferred to "Göksel Egemen bize merhamet eyle" (Lord, have mercy) since it is shorter and easier to say 40 times! 

[mabsoota]

i was going to ask u how to say Lord have mercy!
thanks, and may God bless yr work.
 

[Theophilos78]

Shukran! Thanks. 

[WPM]

Must be why that doesn't make any sense.

[psalm110]

lol right I thought it sounded like a different dialect.

[Cantor Krishnich]

thanks!
wondered why i understood so much of it!
'ya walidat allah' (oh mother of God) is definitely arabic, i don't thing the surrounding languages that are influenced by (or influenced) arabic have the 'ya' meaning 'oh'.
i will check out your link.
do you have any more turkish audio links?
i learnt a few words of a related (turkic) language, so i want my ears to get used to turkish and then i may study it in the future, if i have time.

I have no more audio links.

I have recently translated the liturgy of baptism and matrimony into modern Turkish, but I think they have not been put on tape yet.

walidat Allah is pure Arabic! In Turkey the Levantines (mostly Roman Catholics) tend to use the old translations of the liturgical texts and of the Bible. They say "Allah'ın annesi" whereas I prefer saying "Tanrı'nın Annesi" since I use the modern Turkish word Tanrı, which means "the God" when its initial letter is capitalized. Otherwise it means "a god, something that's worshiped".

The Turkish translations of the Bible are mostly awful and even heretical! They name John the Baptist "Yahya" instead of "Youhanna"! They also contain the word İsa instead of Yesua or Yeshua. 

Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

[Theophilos78]

Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

Well, Isa is Quranic whereas Yesua/Yeshua is Biblical. 

[Alpo]

Yesua/Yeshua is Biblical. 

It is? From which verse it can be found?

[Theophilos78]

Yesua/Yeshua is Biblical. 

It is? From which verse it can be found?

Jesus was called Yeshua by His mother. This was the name announced by Gabriel. The name Isa, on the other hand, does not exist even in the Arabic translation of the New Testament.

[Alpo]

Yesua/Yeshua is Biblical.  

It is? From which verse it can be found?

Jesus was called Yeshua by His mother. This was the name announced by Gabriel. The name Isa, on the other hand, does not exist even in the Arabic translation of the New Testament.

Mayhap but the Bible was written in Greek. For me it seems that "Isa" is as good translation of the original name as, say, "Jesus" is.

I don't know what variation pre-Islamic Arabs used though.

[mike]

Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

Theophilos78 is an arabophobe. There is nothing more behind that. It wouldn't be bad if he weren't trying to explain his phobia with theology.

[Theophilos78]

Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

Theophilos78 is an arabophobe. There is nothing more behind that. It wouldn't be bad if he weren't trying to explain his phobia with theology.

No offense taken. Wishing you good luck with the false god of the Arabs although I am sure the God of Israel (Elohim el Shaddai) is going to prevail. 

[Alpo]

the false god of the Arabs

St. John of Damascus might have something to say about that.

[Theophilos78]

the false god of the Arabs

St. John of Damascus might have something to say about that.

The word of God precedes every saint.

"The gods of the nations are demons" has said Elohim's Spirit. Only the God of Israel is the true God and He revealed His sacred name to Moses in a burning bush. That name is not Allah or Rahman or Rahim.

[mabsoota]

did u know the burning bush is another symbol of the virgin mary?

[Cantor Krishnich]

Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

Theophilos78 is an arabophobe. There is nothing more behind that. It wouldn't be bad if he weren't trying to explain his phobia with theology.

No offense taken. Wishing you good luck with the false god of the Arabs although I am sure the God of Israel (Elohim el Shaddai) is going to prevail. 

This happens a lot. I've seen many cases like this one: many people who convert to Christianity from an Islamic background grow to hate everything about their Middle Eastern culture. This makes me very mad. Don't let the Protestant Evangelists trick you into believing that you should cleanse your culture of everything that is Eastern, otherwise you'll be proving what the mullahs/imams say, "Christianity is Western and the Converts are Western spies out to destroy _____culture".

Did you know that about 30 percent of the Arab people are Christian, even more than that if you count the diaspora. Arabic was used in Christian liturgy long before it was ever used in Islamic Salat/prayer. Even the Yemenite Jews use the name Allah when referring to God in their Arabic prayer portions. The Arab Christians use the name Yassouh al-Massih to refer to Jesus Christ. The name Yeshoua is Hebrew, not Arabic and certainly not Turkish. I dont think its wrong that converts from Islamic cultures should continue using the name Isa al-Masih. As someone pointed out, St. John of Damascus was an Arab and in almost every icon, he is depicted wearing the traditional Arab keffiyeh or shemagh.

Turkish culture is a beautiful melting pot, the Arabic culture has influenced Turkish culture makes the culture even more beautiful in my opinion. Turkish Turks in particular, should be proud of their culture because it tells their great history, although the Christians suffered under the Ottomans and the the great city of Constantinople was put away by them, I still find Turkish culture and its Arabic roots to be quite fascinating. 

When Christians use the name Elohim, Jehovah, YHWH, etc. it doesn't look good because the Christian canon law forbids Christians to "Judaize" or bring Jewish customs into the Church. His sacred name, YHWH, is not to be used at all because the canons also forbid that. Allah is not the name of God but it is a translation of the word God. Elohim or Adonai is the name that Jews use to avoid using the name YHWH. Orthodox converts from Judaism use this name but I dont think anyone should unless your culture is influenced by Hebrew.

[Theophilos78]

did u know the burning bush is another symbol of the virgin mary?

Yes, I have translated into Turkish a prayer referring to that imagery. 

[Theophilos78]

This happens a lot. I've seen many cases like this one: many people who convert to Christianity from an Islamic background grow to hate everything about their Middle Eastern culture. This makes me very mad. Don't let the Protestant Evangelists trick you into believing that you should cleanse your culture of everything that is Eastern, otherwise you'll be proving what the mullahs/imams say, "Christianity is Western and the Converts are Western spies out to destroy _____culture".

Well, Elohim is also Middle Eastern. 

Did you know that about 30 percent of the Arab people are Christian, even more than that if you count the diaspora. Arabic was used in Christian liturgy long before it was ever used in Islamic Salat/prayer. Even the Yemenite Jews use the name Allah when referring to God in their Arabic prayer portions. The Arab Christians use the name Yassouh al-Massih to refer to Jesus Christ. The name Yeshoua is Hebrew, not Arabic and certainly not Turkish. I dont think its wrong that converts from Islamic cultures should continue using the name Isa al-Masih. As someone pointed out, St. John of Damascus was an Arab and in almost every icon, he is depicted wearing the traditional Arab keffiyeh or shemagh.

He was an Arab, but I am not an Arab. Why should I keep using Arabic in my prayers? If I had to use a foreign/borrowed word to define my God, why would I prefer Allah to Theos or Elohim? Allah is not of Biblical origin.

When Christians use the name Elohim, Jehovah, YHWH, etc. it doesn't look good because the Christian canon law forbids Christians to "Judaize" or bring Jewish customs into the Church. His sacred name, YHWH, is not to be used at all because the canons also forbid that. Allah is not the name of God but it is a translation of the word God. Elohim or Adonai is the name that Jews use to avoid using the name YHWH. Orthodox converts from Judaism use this name but I dont think anyone should unless your culture is influenced by Hebrew.

IMHO, using the word Allah makes us look like Muslims. I would rather seem/sound Jewish than Muslim. Besides, Allah is the name of a pagan deity. Allah is equal to Hubal. (Hubal-lah)
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god-hubal.htm

The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship. Do Egyptians use the word Amon-Ra solely because it is an ancient word used in Egyptian theology and mythology?   

[Andrew Crook]

This happens a lot. I've seen many cases like this one: many people who convert to Christianity from an Islamic background grow to hate everything about their Middle Eastern culture. This makes me very mad. Don't let the Protestant Evangelists trick you into believing that you should cleanse your culture of everything that is Eastern, otherwise you'll be proving what the mullahs/imams say, "Christianity is Western and the Converts are Western spies out to destroy _____culture".

Well, Elohim is also Middle Eastern. 

Did you know that about 30 percent of the Arab people are Christian, even more than that if you count the diaspora. Arabic was used in Christian liturgy long before it was ever used in Islamic Salat/prayer. Even the Yemenite Jews use the name Allah when referring to God in their Arabic prayer portions. The Arab Christians use the name Yassouh al-Massih to refer to Jesus Christ. The name Yeshoua is Hebrew, not Arabic and certainly not Turkish. I dont think its wrong that converts from Islamic cultures should continue using the name Isa al-Masih. As someone pointed out, St. John of Damascus was an Arab and in almost every icon, he is depicted wearing the traditional Arab keffiyeh or shemagh.

He was an Arab, but I am not an Arab. Why should I keep using Arabic in my prayers? If I had to use a foreign/borrowed word to define my God, why would I prefer Allah to Theos or Elohim? Allah is not of Biblical origin.

When Christians use the name Elohim, Jehovah, YHWH, etc. it doesn't look good because the Christian canon law forbids Christians to "Judaize" or bring Jewish customs into the Church. His sacred name, YHWH, is not to be used at all because the canons also forbid that. Allah is not the name of God but it is a translation of the word God. Elohim or Adonai is the name that Jews use to avoid using the name YHWH. Orthodox converts from Judaism use this name but I dont think anyone should unless your culture is influenced by Hebrew.

IMHO, using the word Allah makes us look like Muslims. I would rather seem/sound Jewish than Muslim. Besides, Allah is the name of a pagan deity. Allah is equal to Hubal. (Hubal-lah)
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god-hubal.htm

The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship. Do Egyptians use the word Amon-Ra solely because it is an ancient word used in Egyptian theology and mythology?   

Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     

Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

[mike]

The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship.

[Theophilos78]

Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.

[mike]

Theophilos78, do you believe the Church has been wrong for about 1.5k years and you will correct Her?

[Theophilos78]

Theophilos78, do you believe the Church has been wrong for about 1.5k years and you will correct Her?

The Church has never had an official dogma on the use of the word Allah. This is why we cannot talk of a mistake and correction here. 

[genesisone]

Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.

The English word "god" (capitalized when English speaking people write about the one God worshipped by Christians, Jews, sometimes Muslims) is also of pagan origins according to this source. If Arabic speaking Christians are forbidden to say "Allah" because of pagan origins, then it would logically follow that English speaking Christians are forbidden to say "God". Or would you rather be illogical?

[Cantor Krishnich]

Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God. The Muslims copied a lot from Christians when their prophet invented their religion. So in my opinion, in many ways, the Muslims are copying the Arab Christians. Turks are not Arabs but Turkish culture is influenced by Arab, Persian, and Byzantine cultures. There are some purely Turkish words for the word God but they are pagan (which is not exactly a bad thing), I think the best word to use would be Allah.  

Since you want to purge your culture completely of Arabic influence, I dare you to remove all of the meze dishes from Turkish cuisine, to remove the Fez and kaftan from Turkish clothing, to cease all Turkish music which is based on the Arabic Makkam system, and to stop using about 35% of the Turkish language. Now what is left? Arabic culture has influenced Turkish culture greatly and it has worked for the better in terms of culture.      

[Cantor Krishnich]

Theophilos78, do you believe the Church has been wrong for about 1.5k years and you will correct Her?

The Church has never had an official dogma on the use of the word Allah. This is why we cannot talk of a mistake and correction here. 

Is there an official dogma on the use of the word "God" in English? The Arab-speaking churches have been using the word Allah for centuries. Because that is the correct translation of the word God into Arabic and in many cases, Arabic influenced languages.                         

[Andrew Crook]

Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.

The English word "god" (capitalized when English speaking people write about the one God worshipped by Christians, Jews, sometimes Muslims) is also of pagan origins according to this source. If Arabic speaking Christians are forbidden to say "Allah" because of pagan origins, then it would logically follow that English speaking Christians are forbidden to say "God". Or would you rather be illogical?

I believe Theos is also related to the Latin Deus, and the much older Greek word for "Zeus".  Linguistics are quite fascinating to me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus. They are descended from an older Proto-Indo-European language which might possibly have had a similar mythology. I realize it's Wikipedia, so it could have inaccuracies but it is interesting to speculate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus

[Theophilos78]

The English word "god" (capitalized when English speaking people write about the one God worshipped by Christians, Jews, sometimes Muslims) is also of pagan origins according to this source. If Arabic speaking Christians are forbidden to say "Allah" because of pagan origins, then it would logically follow that English speaking Christians are forbidden to say "God". Or would you rather be illogical?

Then all Christians must use one and same word to define what they worship, and that single word must be Elohim. No more confusions. 

[Theophilos78]

Is there an official dogma on the use of the word "God" in English? The Arab-speaking churches have been using the word Allah for centuries. Because that is the correct translation of the word God into Arabic and in many cases, Arabic influenced languages.                         

You seem to confuse the word ilah with allah. In Arabic the word ilah means God whereas allah is a proper noun attributed to a specific deity.