Author Topic: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish  (Read 8641 times)

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Offline kelfar

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Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« on: June 03, 2010, 12:58:46 PM »
I found this recording, Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish.

Link: http://www.ortodoksluk.org/liturgy-turkce.mp3 (Antiochian Style)


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Offline Nazarene

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 01:17:03 PM »
Nice! Are there anymore Liturgical recordings in Turkish you can share? I love adding more languages to my "Chant Library".

Offline kelfar

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 01:20:03 PM »
Let me look and see if I can find readings in Turkish.

Offline Nazarene

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 01:22:43 PM »
Awesome. I would personally love to hear Orthodox Chant (whether EO or OO) in Farsi as well, but I think that's asking for the impossible, despite the fact that there are Orthodox Christians in Iran.

Offline psalm110

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 10:06:33 AM »
I've found this on Youtube,

http://youtu.be/YL8uBEpxHkc

Turkish Liturgy of St John Chrysostomos -

Are there any more in the Turkish Language ?. Does anyone have Agni Parthene in Turkish ?




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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 10:48:58 AM »
I've found this on Youtube,

http://youtu.be/YL8uBEpxHkc

Turkish Liturgy of St John Chrysostomos -

Are there any more in the Turkish Language ?. Does anyone have Agni Parthene in Turkish ?



It's the same recording which was presented by kelfar in the first post of this topic.
I've heard Agni Parthene in several languages, but not in Turkish, for sure.
I have only one more things in Turkish - Paschal Troparion
http://portal.canto.ru/files/mpeg/sreten/sreten-09.mp3 (the recording cointains this hymn in various languages, Turkish is the third one)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 10:49:38 AM by Dominika »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 10:53:46 AM »
Does EP allow liturgies in Turkish?
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Offline psalm110

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 11:15:45 AM »
Does EP allow liturgies in Turkish?

Good question, I'd like to know the answer to that, possibly no? I live in Australia and the Liturgy is not even in English.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 02:39:32 PM »
really beautiful.
am listening to it as i type
 :)

i think there are farsi liturgies as well.
if anyone could find one, this would be very cool.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 02:46:37 PM »
by the way, there are some bits in arabic.
i was wondering why there are so many similar words, then realised there are a few sentences that have not been translated from arabic.
turkish and arabic do have some similar words, but not identical sentences.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 02:52:24 PM »
I've found this on Youtube,

http://youtu.be/YL8uBEpxHkc

Turkish Liturgy of St John Chrysostomos -

Are there any more in the Turkish Language ?. Does anyone have Agni Parthene in Turkish ?


This is not Turkish per se. The language unfortunately contains many Arabic and Persian words. The word "Rab", for instance, is not Turkish. There is no Turkish equivalent of this word. This is why I prefer the word Adonai. The same goes for the word "Allah". While translating old liturgical texts into Turkish, I always take "Allah" out.

You can check the following website for the modern Turkish translations of liturgical texts:
http://www.oodegr.com/tourkika/eortes/Theofaneia.htm
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 02:57:21 PM »
thanks!
wondered why i understood so much of it!
'ya walidat allah' (oh mother of God) is definitely arabic, i don't thing the surrounding languages that are influenced by (or influenced) arabic have the 'ya' meaning 'oh'.
i will check out your link.
do you have any more turkish audio links?
i learnt a few words of a related (turkic) language, so i want my ears to get used to turkish and then i may study it in the future, if i have time.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 03:06:17 PM »
thanks!
wondered why i understood so much of it!
'ya walidat allah' (oh mother of God) is definitely arabic, i don't thing the surrounding languages that are influenced by (or influenced) arabic have the 'ya' meaning 'oh'.
i will check out your link.
do you have any more turkish audio links?
i learnt a few words of a related (turkic) language, so i want my ears to get used to turkish and then i may study it in the future, if i have time.

I have no more audio links. :(

I have recently translated the liturgy of baptism and matrimony into modern Turkish, but I think they have not been put on tape yet.

walidat Allah is pure Arabic! In Turkey the Levantines (mostly Roman Catholics) tend to use the old translations of the liturgical texts and of the Bible. They say "Allah'ın annesi" whereas I prefer saying "Tanrı'nın Annesi" since I use the modern Turkish word Tanrı, which means "the God" when its initial letter is capitalized. Otherwise it means "a god, something that's worshiped".

The Turkish translations of the Bible are mostly awful and even heretical! They name John the Baptist "Yahya" instead of "Youhanna"! They also contain the word İsa instead of Yesua or Yeshua.  :'(
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 03:08:46 PM »
I've found this on Youtube,

http://youtu.be/YL8uBEpxHkc

Turkish Liturgy of St John Chrysostomos -

Are there any more in the Turkish Language ?. Does anyone have Agni Parthene in Turkish ?


This is not Turkish per se. The language unfortunately contains many Arabic and Persian words.
Unfortunately?! :o :( ??? >:(!

The word "Rab", for instance, is not Turkish. There is no Turkish equivalent of this word. This is why I prefer the word Adonai. The same goes for the word "Allah". While translating old liturgical texts into Turkish, I always take "Allah" out.
Tanrı?
You can check the following website for the modern Turkish translations of liturgical texts:
http://www.oodegr.com/tourkika/eortes/Theofaneia.htm
Interesting!
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 03:15:51 PM »
Yes, brother. I did not mean to offend you or other Arab brothers/sisters here.  :angel:

Yet Arabic reminds me of the false prophet and of his false scripture. (I am sick of hearing the adhan 5 times a day!)

Tanrı means God. Rab has no exact equivalent. Some people attempt to translate it as Efendi, but this is not accurate since Efendi is Master/Despota.  ;D
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2012, 03:18:34 PM »
i think he means it's unfortunate because it will appear to the turks like it is a 'foreign' religion.
when things are not properly translated, they alienate a lot of people, who feel their language identity strongly and wonder if they have to leave this in order to become Christian.

so if someone is telling turkish people about Jesus Christ, it makes sense to do so in the turkish language. just like english for english speaking people and beautiful, lovely arabic (me? biased?!) for arabic speaking people.

(i know u are a linguist, i hope i have not oversimplified it).

by the way, the creed sounds awesome in turkish.
this bit, i think was well translated because i did not understand it!

p.s. we use the word efendi in arabic too. it would be really weird hearing it used for God!

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2012, 03:25:06 PM »
p.s. we use the word efendi in arabic too. it would be really weird hearing it used for God!

I suggested using the phrase Göksel Egemen for Lord since Egemen means "dominating, sovereign" in Turkish whilst göksel means heavenly. Yet it was found weird and too long to be used in liturgy. "Rab merhamet eyle" is preferred to "Göksel Egemen bize merhamet eyle" (Lord, have mercy) since it is shorter and easier to say 40 times!  ;D
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2012, 03:31:10 PM »
i was going to ask u how to say Lord have mercy!
thanks, and may God bless yr work.
 :)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2012, 03:34:28 PM »
Shukran! Thanks.  :angel:
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2012, 05:38:24 PM »
Must be why that doesn't make any sense.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 05:39:16 PM by WPM »

Offline psalm110

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2012, 11:49:29 PM »
lol right I thought it sounded like a different dialect.

Offline Cantor Krishnich

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2012, 11:54:36 PM »
thanks!
wondered why i understood so much of it!
'ya walidat allah' (oh mother of God) is definitely arabic, i don't thing the surrounding languages that are influenced by (or influenced) arabic have the 'ya' meaning 'oh'.
i will check out your link.
do you have any more turkish audio links?
i learnt a few words of a related (turkic) language, so i want my ears to get used to turkish and then i may study it in the future, if i have time.

I have no more audio links. :(

I have recently translated the liturgy of baptism and matrimony into modern Turkish, but I think they have not been put on tape yet.

walidat Allah is pure Arabic! In Turkey the Levantines (mostly Roman Catholics) tend to use the old translations of the liturgical texts and of the Bible. They say "Allah'ın annesi" whereas I prefer saying "Tanrı'nın Annesi" since I use the modern Turkish word Tanrı, which means "the God" when its initial letter is capitalized. Otherwise it means "a god, something that's worshiped".

The Turkish translations of the Bible are mostly awful and even heretical! They name John the Baptist "Yahya" instead of "Youhanna"! They also contain the word İsa instead of Yesua or Yeshua.  :'(

Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2012, 04:48:07 AM »

Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

Well, Isa is Quranic whereas Yesua/Yeshua is Biblical.  ;)
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2012, 04:57:53 AM »
Yesua/Yeshua is Biblical.  ;)

It is? From which verse it can be found?
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2012, 05:08:44 AM »
Yesua/Yeshua is Biblical.  ;)

It is? From which verse it can be found?

Jesus was called Yeshua by His mother. This was the name announced by Gabriel. The name Isa, on the other hand, does not exist even in the Arabic translation of the New Testament.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2012, 05:16:06 AM »
Yesua/Yeshua is Biblical.  ;)

It is? From which verse it can be found?

Jesus was called Yeshua by His mother. This was the name announced by Gabriel. The name Isa, on the other hand, does not exist even in the Arabic translation of the New Testament.

Mayhap but the Bible was written in Greek. For me it seems that "Isa" is as good translation of the original name as, say, "Jesus" is.

I don't know what variation pre-Islamic Arabs used though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 05:16:48 AM by Alpo »
Quote from: Severian
the people on this forum have to stop taking themselves so seriously. None of us are some modern-day Athanasius, we all just have nothing better to do.

Offline mike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2012, 05:20:07 AM »
Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

Theophilos78 is an arabophobe. There is nothing more behind that. It wouldn't be bad if he weren't trying to explain his phobia with theology.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2012, 05:23:08 AM »
Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

Theophilos78 is an arabophobe. There is nothing more behind that. It wouldn't be bad if he weren't trying to explain his phobia with theology.

No offense taken. Wishing you good luck with the false god of the Arabs although I am sure the God of Israel (Elohim el Shaddai) is going to prevail.  :angel:
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2012, 05:25:33 AM »
the false god of the Arabs

St. John of Damascus might have something to say about that. :police:
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the people on this forum have to stop taking themselves so seriously. None of us are some modern-day Athanasius, we all just have nothing better to do.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2012, 05:30:25 AM »
the false god of the Arabs

St. John of Damascus might have something to say about that. :police:

The word of God precedes every saint.

"The gods of the nations are demons" has said Elohim's Spirit. Only the God of Israel is the true God and He revealed His sacred name to Moses in a burning bush. That name is not Allah or Rahman or Rahim.
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2012, 03:30:24 PM »
did u know the burning bush is another symbol of the virgin mary?

Offline Cantor Krishnich

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2012, 06:17:49 PM »
Actually, I dont think there's anything wrong with the use of the name Isa al-Masih for Jesus Christ.

Theophilos78 is an arabophobe. There is nothing more behind that. It wouldn't be bad if he weren't trying to explain his phobia with theology.

No offense taken. Wishing you good luck with the false god of the Arabs although I am sure the God of Israel (Elohim el Shaddai) is going to prevail.  :angel:

This happens a lot. I've seen many cases like this one: many people who convert to Christianity from an Islamic background grow to hate everything about their Middle Eastern culture. This makes me very mad. Don't let the Protestant Evangelists trick you into believing that you should cleanse your culture of everything that is Eastern, otherwise you'll be proving what the mullahs/imams say, "Christianity is Western and the Converts are Western spies out to destroy _____culture".

Did you know that about 30 percent of the Arab people are Christian, even more than that if you count the diaspora. Arabic was used in Christian liturgy long before it was ever used in Islamic Salat/prayer. Even the Yemenite Jews use the name Allah when referring to God in their Arabic prayer portions. The Arab Christians use the name Yassouh al-Massih to refer to Jesus Christ. The name Yeshoua is Hebrew, not Arabic and certainly not Turkish. I dont think its wrong that converts from Islamic cultures should continue using the name Isa al-Masih. As someone pointed out, St. John of Damascus was an Arab and in almost every icon, he is depicted wearing the traditional Arab keffiyeh or shemagh.

Turkish culture is a beautiful melting pot, the Arabic culture has influenced Turkish culture makes the culture even more beautiful in my opinion. Turkish Turks in particular, should be proud of their culture because it tells their great history, although the Christians suffered under the Ottomans and the the great city of Constantinople was put away by them, I still find Turkish culture and its Arabic roots to be quite fascinating. 

When Christians use the name Elohim, Jehovah, YHWH, etc. it doesn't look good because the Christian canon law forbids Christians to "Judaize" or bring Jewish customs into the Church. His sacred name, YHWH, is not to be used at all because the canons also forbid that. Allah is not the name of God but it is a translation of the word God. Elohim or Adonai is the name that Jews use to avoid using the name YHWH. Orthodox converts from Judaism use this name but I dont think anyone should unless your culture is influenced by Hebrew.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2012, 06:36:25 PM »
did u know the burning bush is another symbol of the virgin mary?

Yes, I have translated into Turkish a prayer referring to that imagery.  ;)
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2012, 06:47:00 PM »


This happens a lot. I've seen many cases like this one: many people who convert to Christianity from an Islamic background grow to hate everything about their Middle Eastern culture. This makes me very mad. Don't let the Protestant Evangelists trick you into believing that you should cleanse your culture of everything that is Eastern, otherwise you'll be proving what the mullahs/imams say, "Christianity is Western and the Converts are Western spies out to destroy _____culture".

Well, Elohim is also Middle Eastern.  ;D

Did you know that about 30 percent of the Arab people are Christian, even more than that if you count the diaspora. Arabic was used in Christian liturgy long before it was ever used in Islamic Salat/prayer. Even the Yemenite Jews use the name Allah when referring to God in their Arabic prayer portions. The Arab Christians use the name Yassouh al-Massih to refer to Jesus Christ. The name Yeshoua is Hebrew, not Arabic and certainly not Turkish. I dont think its wrong that converts from Islamic cultures should continue using the name Isa al-Masih. As someone pointed out, St. John of Damascus was an Arab and in almost every icon, he is depicted wearing the traditional Arab keffiyeh or shemagh.

He was an Arab, but I am not an Arab. Why should I keep using Arabic in my prayers? If I had to use a foreign/borrowed word to define my God, why would I prefer Allah to Theos or Elohim? Allah is not of Biblical origin.

When Christians use the name Elohim, Jehovah, YHWH, etc. it doesn't look good because the Christian canon law forbids Christians to "Judaize" or bring Jewish customs into the Church. His sacred name, YHWH, is not to be used at all because the canons also forbid that. Allah is not the name of God but it is a translation of the word God. Elohim or Adonai is the name that Jews use to avoid using the name YHWH. Orthodox converts from Judaism use this name but I dont think anyone should unless your culture is influenced by Hebrew.

IMHO, using the word Allah makes us look like Muslims. I would rather seem/sound Jewish than Muslim. Besides, Allah is the name of a pagan deity. Allah is equal to Hubal. (Hubal-lah)
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god-hubal.htm

The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship. Do Egyptians use the word Amon-Ra solely because it is an ancient word used in Egyptian theology and mythology?   ::)
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Offline Andrew Crook

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2012, 07:00:43 PM »


This happens a lot. I've seen many cases like this one: many people who convert to Christianity from an Islamic background grow to hate everything about their Middle Eastern culture. This makes me very mad. Don't let the Protestant Evangelists trick you into believing that you should cleanse your culture of everything that is Eastern, otherwise you'll be proving what the mullahs/imams say, "Christianity is Western and the Converts are Western spies out to destroy _____culture".

Well, Elohim is also Middle Eastern.  ;D

Did you know that about 30 percent of the Arab people are Christian, even more than that if you count the diaspora. Arabic was used in Christian liturgy long before it was ever used in Islamic Salat/prayer. Even the Yemenite Jews use the name Allah when referring to God in their Arabic prayer portions. The Arab Christians use the name Yassouh al-Massih to refer to Jesus Christ. The name Yeshoua is Hebrew, not Arabic and certainly not Turkish. I dont think its wrong that converts from Islamic cultures should continue using the name Isa al-Masih. As someone pointed out, St. John of Damascus was an Arab and in almost every icon, he is depicted wearing the traditional Arab keffiyeh or shemagh.

He was an Arab, but I am not an Arab. Why should I keep using Arabic in my prayers? If I had to use a foreign/borrowed word to define my God, why would I prefer Allah to Theos or Elohim? Allah is not of Biblical origin.

When Christians use the name Elohim, Jehovah, YHWH, etc. it doesn't look good because the Christian canon law forbids Christians to "Judaize" or bring Jewish customs into the Church. His sacred name, YHWH, is not to be used at all because the canons also forbid that. Allah is not the name of God but it is a translation of the word God. Elohim or Adonai is the name that Jews use to avoid using the name YHWH. Orthodox converts from Judaism use this name but I dont think anyone should unless your culture is influenced by Hebrew.

IMHO, using the word Allah makes us look like Muslims. I would rather seem/sound Jewish than Muslim. Besides, Allah is the name of a pagan deity. Allah is equal to Hubal. (Hubal-lah)
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god-hubal.htm

The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship. Do Egyptians use the word Amon-Ra solely because it is an ancient word used in Egyptian theology and mythology?   ::)

Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     

Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...
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Offline mike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2012, 07:03:46 PM »
The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship.

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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2012, 07:18:02 PM »
Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2012, 07:30:20 PM »
Theophilos78, do you believe the Church has been wrong for about 1.5k years and you will correct Her?
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2012, 07:33:21 PM »
Theophilos78, do you believe the Church has been wrong for about 1.5k years and you will correct Her?

The Church has never had an official dogma on the use of the word Allah. This is why we cannot talk of a mistake and correction here.  ;D
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2012, 07:47:44 PM »
Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.
The English word "god" (capitalized when English speaking people write about the one God worshipped by Christians, Jews, sometimes Muslims) is also of pagan origins according to this source. If Arabic speaking Christians are forbidden to say "Allah" because of pagan origins, then it would logically follow that English speaking Christians are forbidden to say "God". Or would you rather be illogical?

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2012, 07:54:13 PM »
Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God. The Muslims copied a lot from Christians when their prophet invented their religion. So in my opinion, in many ways, the Muslims are copying the Arab Christians. Turks are not Arabs but Turkish culture is influenced by Arab, Persian, and Byzantine cultures. There are some purely Turkish words for the word God but they are pagan (which is not exactly a bad thing), I think the best word to use would be Allah.  

Since you want to purge your culture completely of Arabic influence, I dare you to remove all of the meze dishes from Turkish cuisine, to remove the Fez and kaftan from Turkish clothing, to cease all Turkish music which is based on the Arabic Makkam system, and to stop using about 35% of the Turkish language. Now what is left? Arabic culture has influenced Turkish culture greatly and it has worked for the better in terms of culture.      
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2012, 07:58:54 PM »
Theophilos78, do you believe the Church has been wrong for about 1.5k years and you will correct Her?

The Church has never had an official dogma on the use of the word Allah. This is why we cannot talk of a mistake and correction here.  ;D

Is there an official dogma on the use of the word "God" in English? The Arab-speaking churches have been using the word Allah for centuries. Because that is the correct translation of the word God into Arabic and in many cases, Arabic influenced languages.                         
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2012, 08:03:37 PM »
Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.
The English word "god" (capitalized when English speaking people write about the one God worshipped by Christians, Jews, sometimes Muslims) is also of pagan origins according to this source. If Arabic speaking Christians are forbidden to say "Allah" because of pagan origins, then it would logically follow that English speaking Christians are forbidden to say "God". Or would you rather be illogical?

I believe Theos is also related to the Latin Deus, and the much older Greek word for "Zeus".  Linguistics are quite fascinating to me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus. They are descended from an older Proto-Indo-European language which might possibly have had a similar mythology. I realize it's Wikipedia, so it could have inaccuracies but it is interesting to speculate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2012, 08:13:23 PM »
The English word "god" (capitalized when English speaking people write about the one God worshipped by Christians, Jews, sometimes Muslims) is also of pagan origins according to this source. If Arabic speaking Christians are forbidden to say "Allah" because of pagan origins, then it would logically follow that English speaking Christians are forbidden to say "God". Or would you rather be illogical?

Then all Christians must use one and same word to define what they worship, and that single word must be Elohim. No more confusions.  ;D
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2012, 08:14:46 PM »

Is there an official dogma on the use of the word "God" in English? The Arab-speaking churches have been using the word Allah for centuries. Because that is the correct translation of the word God into Arabic and in many cases, Arabic influenced languages.                         

You seem to confuse the word ilah with allah. In Arabic the word ilah means God whereas allah is a proper noun attributed to a specific deity.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2012, 08:17:45 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

This is pure speculation rather than a fact. Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism. It is connected to Hubal. Allah had three daughters, one of which was named Allat.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2012, 08:29:16 PM »

Is there an official dogma on the use of the word "God" in English? The Arab-speaking churches have been using the word Allah for centuries. Because that is the correct translation of the word God into Arabic and in many cases, Arabic influenced languages.                        

You seem to confuse the word ilah with allah. In Arabic the word ilah means God whereas allah is a proper noun attributed to a specific deity.

No Incorrect  :). I will try to explain this the best way that I can, sense I'm not fluent in Arabic. In Arabic grammar, words are put together different when they are spoken by themselves for example: "Glory to Thee O Lord, Glory to Thee" is translated as "Majdulaka Ya Rabbul Majdulak", Lord is translated as "Rab" by itself not Rabbul. Another example is "Bismillah" which means "In the name of God", God is translated as "Allah" by itself not Illah. Maybe someone on the forum who speaks Arabic can help in this case?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 08:34:36 PM by Cantor Krishnich »
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2012, 08:35:41 PM »
No Incorrect  :). I will try to explain this the best way that I can sense I'm not fluent in Arabic. In Arabic grammar, words are put together different when they are spoken by themselves for example: "Glory to Thee O Lord, Glory to Thee" is translated as "Majdulaka Ya Rabbul Majdulak", Lord is translated as "Rab" by itself not Rabbul. Another example is "Bismillah" which means "In the name of God", God is translated as "Allah" by itself not Illah. Maybe someone on the forum who speaks Arabic can help in this case?

Your examples disprove your theory. Arabic does not have the word Rabbul, but has the word Allah. The writer of the Qur'an knew that Allah did not mean God, but was the name of a deity in the same way as Rahman:

Say (unto mankind): Cry unto Allah, or cry unto the Beneficent, unto whichsoever ye cry (it is the same). His are the most beautiful names. (Surah 17:110)
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2012, 09:17:05 PM »
IIRC "Allah" is the two words "Al" (the definite particle, analogous to our word "the") and "Ilah" (God - and cognate to Eloh)). In Arabic, like a lot of languages, words "glide" together according to rules particular to them, to make them easier to say and better sounding (I know someone here has to know what this is called, I forget).
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 09:17:30 PM by Jason.Wike »

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2012, 10:03:43 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism.

[Citation Needed]

The writer of the Qur'an knew that Allah did not mean God, but was the name of a deity in the same way as Rahman:


[Citation Needed]

Also of note, the Syriac/Aramaic phrase for "The Merciful God" is "Allaha m'Rahmana".

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2012, 10:24:00 PM »
Merely because something was applied to a pagan deity, does not mean that it cannot be applied to the Trinitarian God.  Many of the Hebrew names for God were also used by the Canaanite pagans which preceded Judaism.  El was considered to be the father of 70 children and Yahweh is considered to be part of their pantheon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion     
Although I understand your preference to not use Arabic, as it comes from a variety of reasons.  I was just adding this bit of information to the conversation...

Thanks for the information. I use the name Elohim because it is used in the Bible. It may be the name of an ancient Canaanite deity, but its use in reference to the true God of Israel is authorized in the word of God. We cannot say anything of the sort about Hubal-lah.

Roman Catholics are not allowed to use the name Jupiter to define the Trinitatian God. The same rule must go for Arabs and Allah.
The Church in Latin does all the time: Deus Pater (>Iuppiter).  Greek Ζεύς comes from the same source, which is apparent in the dialectal Aeolic Δεύς, the Classical oblique cases  Διός, which gives the Modern Greek form of the name,  Δίας.  Conversely, Latin Deus becomes Zeu in Romanian (which however uses the compound Dominus Deus>Dumnezeu for "God").

Elohim is pagan, not only in it using El, one of the gods of the Canaanites (similar to the usage of Deus Pater/Iuppiter/Ζεύς/Dumnezeu, and, btw, Turkish Tanrı), but also is in the plural (the "Plural of Majesty"), literally "Gods."

Both אלוהּ 'eloah and Aramaic אֵלָה 'elah, cognates of Arabic اله 'ilaah, both appear in the Masoretic Bible. Since they often appear in construct state (God of...), they are exactly like the Arabic, where according to the rules of Arabic grammar, Allaah (al-'ilaah) always drops the article al- and becomes 'ilaah in construct.  Syriac, derived from the Aramaic, has the same rule 'alaah-aa "the God" (or rather, God-the, Aramaic suffixing its definite article rather than prefixing it to the noun) being the usual name for God in Aramaic in the time of Christ. When He said God, He said "'elaahaa" (except perhaps when He lived in Egypt, where might have used the Egyptian/Coptic P-Nouti "The God"=God, a usage that going back to the pagans).

In the Jewish Temple of Elphantine in Egypt, built during the Persian occupation, it seems that the Jews worshipped Yahweh with consorts Anat-Bethel (the "Queen of Heaven" Jeremiah warned against) and a son Amish-Bethel.  It doesn't change what the Torah has to say about Yahweh.  Whatever the pagans were doing at Mecca with Allaah similarly doesn't worry me, nor should it concern any Arab Christian.

Btw, in Allaat we have confirmation of the etymology: in an Arabian Temple in Egypt the son of Gershem (Nehemiah 6:1) "King of Qedar" left a bowl inscribed in Aramaic with the dedication to "han-ilaat" i.e. Allat, around the same time that Herodotus records the name as "Alilat", showing the switch from Ancient North Arabian "han-" (related to nunation) to the "al-" of Classical Arabic.  It became fused later into Allat, as did Allah. Forms 'lt, lt, 'ltw (the ending -w found in many proper names) and h-'lt are found in the ancient inscriptions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GcgCErhKGrAC&pg=PA211&dq=han-ilat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ETiUODEM4nS2QXkmYGIBw&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=han-ilat&f=false

In all these (and Greek ho Theos) the definite article serves the function of capitalization, meaning "the one and only" and making it a proper noun/name.  (similarly, Old Arabic has the article prefixed to names which are dropped in current usage).
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2013, 12:26:02 AM »
The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship.




Bringing in the New Year with an ad hominem. Nice!   :police: :angel:
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2013, 10:27:22 AM »
The Orthodox Church canon must likewise forbid Arabs from using the word Allah in worship.




Bringing in the New Year with an ad hominem. Nice!   :police: :angel:

You have the "report" button in the bottom-right corner.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2013, 01:57:11 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism.

[Citation Needed]


Actually, I had quoted a Qur'an verse, but you left it out!  >:(

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2013, 01:58:11 PM »

You have the "report" button in the bottom-right corner.
I preferred reporting you to Elohim in my prayers.  ::)
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2013, 02:07:16 PM »

Elohim is pagan, not only in it using El, one of the gods of the Canaanites (similar to the usage of Deus Pater/Iuppiter/Ζεύς/Dumnezeu, and, btw, Turkish Tanrı), but also is in the plural (the "Plural of Majesty"), literally "Gods."

 :o Elohim forgive and guide you! It is the word occurring in God's word. Elohim is plural because it alluded to the Trinity.

Both אלוהּ 'eloah and Aramaic אֵלָה 'elah, cognates of Arabic اله 'ilaah, both appear in the Masoretic Bible. Since they often appear in construct state (God of...), they are exactly like the Arabic, where according to the rules of Arabic grammar, Allaah (al-'ilaah) always drops the article al- and becomes 'ilaah in construct.  Syriac, derived from the Aramaic, has the same rule 'alaah-aa "the God" (or rather, God-the, Aramaic suffixing its definite article rather than prefixing it to the noun) being the usual name for God in Aramaic in the time of Christ. When He said God, He said "'elaahaa" (except perhaps when He lived in Egypt, where might have used the Egyptian/Coptic P-Nouti "The God"=God, a usage that going back to the pagans).

Yet the Bible does not make a distinction between Allah and ilaah. Allah cannot mean God since in that case the Islamic creed would make no sense: there is no God, but God. Allah does not mean God, but a specific God distinguished from all other deities.  ;)

In the Jewish Temple of Elphantine in Egypt, built during the Persian occupation, it seems that the Jews worshipped Yahweh with consorts Anat-Bethel (the "Queen of Heaven" Jeremiah warned against) and a son Amish-Bethel.  It doesn't change what the Torah has to say about Yahweh.  Whatever the pagans were doing at Mecca with Allaah similarly doesn't worry me, nor should it concern any Arab Christian.

Btw, in Allaat we have confirmation of the etymology: in an Arabian Temple in Egypt the son of Gershem (Nehemiah 6:1) "King of Qedar" left a bowl inscribed in Aramaic with the dedication to "han-ilaat" i.e. Allat, around the same time that Herodotus records the name as "Alilat", showing the switch from Ancient North Arabian "han-" (related to nunation) to the "al-" of Classical Arabic.  It became fused later into Allat, as did Allah. Forms 'lt, lt, 'ltw (the ending -w found in many proper names) and h-'lt are found in the ancient inscriptions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GcgCErhKGrAC&pg=PA211&dq=han-ilat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ETiUODEM4nS2QXkmYGIBw&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=han-ilat&f=false

In all these (and Greek ho Theos) the definite article serves the function of capitalization, meaning "the one and only" and making it a proper noun/name.  (similarly, Old Arabic has the article prefixed to names which are dropped in current usage).

But we never say in Greek there is no theos but o Theos! We use both words interchangeably. In John 1:1 the word theos is used without the article, yet it refers to the one and true God (Theos in o Logos).

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2013, 03:12:54 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism.

[Citation Needed]


Actually, I had quoted a Qur'an verse, but you left it out!  >:(



Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:16:27 PM by sheenj »

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2013, 03:21:11 PM »

The word Allah is not pagan and it does not originate from the Quran. The word Allah originates from the Hebrew word El which is one of the "names of God" used in Judaism. Assyrians use the word Ellaha/Alloha for God.

Allah was the name of the chief (false) god of Arabic polytheism.

[Citation Needed]


Actually, I had quoted a Qur'an verse, but you left it out!  >:(



Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

Watch out, next he's going to say the Gospel of John, and all that true word of the father stuff, has to go.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:22:14 PM by Jason.Wike »

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2013, 03:22:08 PM »

Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

ISLAM: False god, false prophet, false scripture.

Hubal was the chief idol of Meccan polytheism and the pantheon had been dedicated to him. Now that building is named Baytallah. This shows that Allah is the name given to Hubal.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2013, 03:26:04 PM »

Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

You are free to leave Christ if you think Christianity has pagan concepts.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2013, 03:30:44 PM »

Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

ISLAM: False god, false prophet, false scripture.

Hubal was the chief idol of Meccan polytheism and the pantheon had been dedicated to him. Now that building is named Baytallah. This shows that Allah is the name given to Hubal.

The Gods of Heraclitus, Plato and Aristotle were false as well. That doesn't stop us from using words they coined to describe the Almighty.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2013, 03:32:34 PM »

Islam can be considered many things, however, polytheism is not one of them. Where is the proof for the Polytheistic  Arab name for God and why does that matter? We use the Pagan concept of Logos to describe Jesus, why can't we use a word originating in Arab Polytheism to describe God?

You are free to leave Christ if you think Christianity has pagan concepts.

I don't have to because I realize that the Church has the power to "Baptize" these things and make them her own.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2013, 03:34:33 PM »
Earlier you were saying its ok to use Tanri as the word for God in Turkish, but Tanri was the proper name of a Turkish pagan god. So it is hypocritical to denounce the word Allah while espousing Tanri (note since people whose first language is not English often seem to be confused about this, its not possibly, its not arguably, it is hypocritical with no alternative).

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #63 on: January 01, 2013, 03:35:08 PM »

The Gods of Heraclitus, Plato and Aristotle were false as well. That doesn't stop us from using words they coined to describe the Almighty.

You are free to use whatever name you wish. I believe that all the gods of the nations (including, Arabs) are idols/demons. Only the God of Israel is true. Elohim el-shaddai. My final words: illa Elohim.  :angel:
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #64 on: January 01, 2013, 03:36:17 PM »
Earlier you were saying its ok to use Tanri as the word for God in Turkish, but Tanri was the proper name of a Turkish pagan god. So it is hypocritical to denounce the word Allah while espousing Tanri (note since people whose first language is not English often seem to be confused about this, its not possibly, its not arguably, it is hypocritical with no alternative).
In that case I also suggested that all Christians use one and same word "Elohim" to avoid confusions.  ;)
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2013, 03:38:54 PM »
Earlier you were saying its ok to use Tanri as the word for God in Turkish, but Tanri was the proper name of a Turkish pagan god. So it is hypocritical to denounce the word Allah while espousing Tanri (note since people whose first language is not English often seem to be confused about this, its not possibly, its not arguably, it is hypocritical with no alternative).
In that case I also suggested that all Christians use one and same word "Elohim" to avoid confusions.  ;)

Abraham didn't come out thin air, he came was born in a pagan civilization that spoke the same language as him and used "Elohim" to refer to pagan gods.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2013, 03:42:01 PM »

Abraham didn't come out thin air, he came was born in a pagan civilization that spoke the same language as him and used "Elohim" to refer to pagan gods.

The God of Israel did not forbid His flock from using the name Elohim while referring to Him. This is the only thing that matters.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2013, 03:42:26 PM »

The Gods of Heraclitus, Plato and Aristotle were false as well. That doesn't stop us from using words they coined to describe the Almighty.

You are free to use whatever name you wish. I believe that all the gods of the nations (including, Arabs) are idols/demons. Only the God of Israel is true. Elohim el-shaddai. My final words: illa Elohim.  :angel:


I'll use whatever name the Church has allowed me to use thank you very much...  :police:

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2013, 03:44:17 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2013, 03:48:17 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2013, 03:53:32 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.

Sola Scriptura Hebraica I see.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2013, 04:00:08 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.

Sola Scriptura Hebraica I see.

Maybe, but I personally prefer it to Lingua Islamica & pagana.  ;D
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2013, 04:05:01 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.

Sola Scriptura Hebraica I see.

Maybe, but I personally prefer it to Lingua Islamica & pagana.  ;D

That's your prerogative. Just don't confuse your opinions with Orthodoxy.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2013, 04:13:20 PM »

That's your prerogative. Just don't confuse your opinions with Orthodoxy.
I hope the Orthodox Church will not forbid me from using the word Elohim or compel me to defile my mouth with the name of a pagan god. If that happened, I would have to leave the Orthodox Church.  :)
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2013, 04:33:17 PM »

That's your prerogative. Just don't confuse your opinions with Orthodoxy.
I hope the Orthodox Church will not forbid me from using the word Elohim or compel me to defile my mouth with the name of a pagan god. If that happened, I would have to leave the Orthodox Church.  :)

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2013, 04:36:06 PM »

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

It is different since in Arabic the word ilah means God. Allah is different from ilah. Allah is also an ilah, but Allah does not mean God.  ;)
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2013, 04:45:05 PM »

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

It is different since in Arabic the word ilah means God. Allah is different from ilah. Allah is also an ilah, but Allah does not mean God.  ;)

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2013, 04:49:23 PM »

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

It is different since in Arabic the word ilah means God. Allah is different from ilah. Allah is also an ilah, but Allah does not mean God.  ;)
Yes, I'm afraid, or rather proud, that it does.
'ilaah means "a god."  Allaah means "God" and ilaahii means "My God" 'ilaah 'ibraahiim "the God of Abraham."
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2013, 04:50:15 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2013, 04:52:51 PM »
Some languages don't even have the vowels in "Elohim" and their speakers physically can't pronounce them (especially languages in the Caucasus, where they only have two vowels in most languages). So, what are they do to?

They may use the other names used/allowed in the Hebrew Bible.

Sola Scriptura Hebraica I see.

Maybe, but I personally prefer it to Lingua Islamica & pagana.  ;D
Lingua Arabica predates Islam (unless one believes what the Muslims claim for Islam pre-existing their Prophet): we have many Christian Arabic Inscriptions predating the Hegira by centuries.

Beware of Sola Scriptura Hebraica!  It led St. Jerome, the Vatican and the Protestants astray.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2013, 04:52:59 PM »

Yes, I'm afraid, or rather proud, that it does.
'ilaah means "a god."  Allaah means "God" and ilaahii means "My God" 'ilaah 'ibraahiim "the God of Abraham."

If ilaah means a god, ilaahi Ibrahim means a god of Ibrahim?  ???
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2013, 04:55:38 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?

That's just the way some semitic languages are. In Aramaic it's Alaha which when you break it down is Alah-aa, which means "The-God", or more literally, "God-The". This was all in the post I asked you to read.

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2013, 04:57:30 PM »

Lingua Arabica predates Islam (unless one believes what the Muslims claim for Islam pre-existing their Prophet): we have many Christian Arabic Inscriptions predating the Hegira by centuries.

Beware of Sola Scriptura Hebraica!  It led St. Jerome, the Vatican and the Protestants astray.

I think the problem will be solved if I never pray in Turkish and with Turks who do not use modern Turkish. Luckily, I am a member of the Greek Church. This means there is no possibility and risk of praying in Turkish.  :D
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2013, 04:59:47 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?

That's just the way some semitic languages are. In Aramaic it's Alaha which when you break it down is Alah-aa, which means "The-God", or more literally, "God-The". This was all in the post I asked you to read.

Then will it be right to say that once upon a time in Arabia every ilaah was called Allah because the definite article was attached to the word ilaah?  ???
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2013, 05:00:06 PM »

By saying Elohim, you are still saying the name of a pagan god. Elohim was the name used by the semitic pagans of Abraham's time to describe their god. It's no different from Greeks using Theos or Indians using Deva or Arabs using Allah.

It is different since in Arabic the word ilah means God. Allah is different from ilah. Allah is also an ilah, but Allah does not mean God.  ;)

You can't just say "ilah" to say "God" in Arabic, you have to use the definite article or it is ungrammatical, and it automatically becomes Allah. Not all languages grammar works the same.

Ex. In Gaelic it is the same, "Dia" is "god" but if you are saying "I believe in God" you have to use "an Dia" (literally, "the God"). If you just say "Creidim i Dia" it would mean "I believe in a god."

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2013, 05:04:26 PM »

You can't just say "ilah" to say "God" in Arabic, you have to use the definite article or it is ungrammatical, and it automatically becomes Allah. Not all languages grammar works the same.

Ex. In Gaelic it is the same, "Dia" is "god" but if you are saying "I believe in God" you have to use "an Dia" (literally, "the God"). If you just say "Creidim i Dia" it would mean "I believe in a god."

Are you sure? Even in the Arabic translation of the Nicene Creed I can see that Arab Christians say ilahen haq min ilahen haq (true God from true God) rather than Allahen haq min Allahen haq.  :-\
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2013, 05:22:10 PM »

Elohim is pagan, not only in it using El, one of the gods of the Canaanites (similar to the usage of Deus Pater/Iuppiter/Ζεύς/Dumnezeu, and, btw, Turkish Tanrı), but also is in the plural (the "Plural of Majesty"), literally "Gods."

 :o Elohim forgive and guide you! It is the word occurring in God's word. Elohim is plural because it alluded to the Trinity.
Yes, I'm aware of that, and the use of "We" in Genesis (as the Quran has God speaking in it in imitation).  Doesn't change that the linguistic usage was born amongst pagan speakers (i.e. the Canaanites).

Both אלוהּ 'eloah and Aramaic אֵלָה 'elah, cognates of Arabic اله 'ilaah, both appear in the Masoretic Bible. Since they often appear in construct state (God of...), they are exactly like the Arabic, where according to the rules of Arabic grammar, Allaah (al-'ilaah) always drops the article al- and becomes 'ilaah in construct.  Syriac, derived from the Aramaic, has the same rule 'alaah-aa "the God" (or rather, God-the, Aramaic suffixing its definite article rather than prefixing it to the noun) being the usual name for God in Aramaic in the time of Christ. When He said God, He said "'elaahaa" (except perhaps when He lived in Egypt, where might have used the Egyptian/Coptic P-Nouti "The God"=God, a usage that going back to the pagans).
Yet the Bible does not make a distinction between Allah and ilaah. Allah cannot mean God since in that case the Islamic creed would make no sense: there is no God, but God. Allah does not mean God, but a specific God distinguished from all other deities.  ;)
I don't claim the Islamic Creed makes sense. ;)

Reading Late Antique Greek sources, I've come across the phrase "There is no god except God and he has no partner," something else the Muslim evidently picked up from us.  I'll have to see if I can lay my eyes on the citation, to get the exact Greek wording.

But "There is no god but God" is intelligible to any speaker of English.  So too لا اله الا الله to any Arabic speaker, even if he never heard of Islam.

In the Jewish Temple of Elphantine in Egypt, built during the Persian occupation, it seems that the Jews worshipped Yahweh with consorts Anat-Bethel (the "Queen of Heaven" Jeremiah warned against) and a son Amish-Bethel.  It doesn't change what the Torah has to say about Yahweh.  Whatever the pagans were doing at Mecca with Allaah similarly doesn't worry me, nor should it concern any Arab Christian.

Btw, in Allaat we have confirmation of the etymology: in an Arabian Temple in Egypt the son of Gershem (Nehemiah 6:1) "King of Qedar" left a bowl inscribed in Aramaic with the dedication to "han-ilaat" i.e. Allat, around the same time that Herodotus records the name as "Alilat", showing the switch from Ancient North Arabian "han-" (related to nunation) to the "al-" of Classical Arabic.  It became fused later into Allat, as did Allah. Forms 'lt, lt, 'ltw (the ending -w found in many proper names) and h-'lt are found in the ancient inscriptions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GcgCErhKGrAC&pg=PA211&dq=han-ilat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ETiUODEM4nS2QXkmYGIBw&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=han-ilat&f=false

In all these (and Greek ho Theos) the definite article serves the function of capitalization, meaning "the one and only" and making it a proper noun/name.  (similarly, Old Arabic has the article prefixed to names which are dropped in current usage).

But we never say in Greek there is no theos but o Theos! We use both words interchangeably. In John 1:1 the word theos is used without the article, yet it refers to the one and true God (Theos in o Logos).
Koine Greek is not the same as Demotic Greek.  And no, they are not that interchangeable.

In the case of John 1:1, the article is dropped-like Allaah becoming 'ilaah-according to grammar, in this case Sharp's Rule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granville_Sharp#Classical_grammarian
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2013, 05:22:24 PM »

You can't just say "ilah" to say "God" in Arabic, you have to use the definite article or it is ungrammatical, and it automatically becomes Allah. Not all languages grammar works the same.

Ex. In Gaelic it is the same, "Dia" is "god" but if you are saying "I believe in God" you have to use "an Dia" (literally, "the God"). If you just say "Creidim i Dia" it would mean "I believe in a god."

Are you sure? Even in the Arabic translation of the Nicene Creed I can see that Arab Christians say ilahen haq min ilahen haq (true God from true God) rather than Allahen haq min Allahen haq.  :-\

God is in a different case there so it is declined differently (I think genitive but not completley sure).

Lol, again it is the same in Gaelic: The definite article is dropped when you say "true God of true God," "fìor Dhia o fhìor Dhia."
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 05:26:24 PM by Jason.Wike »

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2013, 05:42:46 PM »

You can't just say "ilah" to say "God" in Arabic, you have to use the definite article or it is ungrammatical, and it automatically becomes Allah. Not all languages grammar works the same.

Ex. In Gaelic it is the same, "Dia" is "god" but if you are saying "I believe in God" you have to use "an Dia" (literally, "the God"). If you just say "Creidim i Dia" it would mean "I believe in a god."

Are you sure? Even in the Arabic translation of the Nicene Creed I can see that Arab Christians say ilahen haq min ilahen haq (true God from true God) rather than Allahen haq min Allahen haq.  :-\
In this case the 'ilaahun (indefinite) means divine substance, rather than the Divine Person/name.  nuurun "light" would never be used as a name of God (which would be "al-Nuur"), but the clause is nuurun min nuurun "light out of light."  It is like the beginning "'u'min bi-ilaahin waaHidin "I believe in One God," in which case the noun 'ilaah has to be indefinite.  "The One God" (saying the basmalah "In the name of the Father...." is al-'ilaah al-waaHid.  This is in parallel to Greek grammar (the "en" "One" requires the article not to be used in Greek, and the Arabic follows suit. Likewise 'aabin "Father" not "al-'aab" the Father. Rabbin waaHidin "Lord" not "al-Rabb al-waaHid" "the One Lord" etc.  Btw, the Liturgical translations in Arabic are not exactly the best, unfortunately.

You can't say allaahin-that would make the noun both definite and indefinite.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #89 on: January 01, 2013, 05:45:48 PM »

Lingua Arabica predates Islam (unless one believes what the Muslims claim for Islam pre-existing their Prophet): we have many Christian Arabic Inscriptions predating the Hegira by centuries.

Beware of Sola Scriptura Hebraica!  It led St. Jerome, the Vatican and the Protestants astray.

I think the problem will be solved if I never pray in Turkish and with Turks who do not use modern Turkish. Luckily, I am a member of the Greek Church. This means there is no possibility and risk of praying in Turkish.  :D
have you seen the Karamanli translations?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #90 on: January 01, 2013, 05:49:21 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?

That's just the way some semitic languages are. In Aramaic it's Alaha which when you break it down is Alah-aa, which means "The-God", or more literally, "God-The". This was all in the post I asked you to read.

Then will it be right to say that once upon a time in Arabia every ilaah was called Allah because the definite article was attached to the word ilaah?  ???
No, as they would have been called, for instance al-ilaah Hubal 'the god Hubal."  Allaah refered to one in particular, hence the modification of the elements, as happened with al-ilaahah becoming Allaat "the goddess."

Btw, in Arabic now, due to Islam's influence, it would be said "al-ma'buud Hubal."  al-ilaah Hubal sounds strange, like "the God Hubal."
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #91 on: January 01, 2013, 05:52:49 PM »

Yes, I'm afraid, or rather proud, that it does.
'ilaah means "a god."  Allaah means "God" and ilaahii means "My God" 'ilaah 'ibraahiim "the God of Abraham."

If ilaah means a god, ilaahi Ibrahim means a god of Ibrahim?  ???
No, that would have to be either ilaahun li-Ibrahim "a god to/for Ibrahim" or ilaahun min 'aalihatu Ibraahiim "a god from the gods of Ibrahim."  the genitive Ibrahim's/of Ibrahim automatically makes ilaah god definite.  Which is why Allaah Ibrahim would mean "God is Abraham," never "Ibrahim's God."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2013, 05:56:23 PM »

Allah is simply the shortened version of Al-Ilah, which means "The God", Al being the prefixed definitive article. Go back and read ialmisry's post again (#50). He explained the grammar rules of Arabic and the other semitic languages including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Go and read my question again. How can one say there is no God but the God? What if the other god/gods are claimed to be the only true God? What if the definite article is attached to the word ilah every time it is used?
One could say "laa 'ilaaha 'illaa Hubal" or "laa 'ilaaha 'illaa al-'ilaahu Hubal," but not "laa Allaaha 'illa Hubal," nor "laa Allaaha/'ilaaha 'illaa Allaah Hubal" although the last is at least morphological possible.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2013, 05:18:42 PM »
No, that would have to be either ilaahun li-Ibrahim "a god to/for Ibrahim" or ilaahun min 'aalihatu Ibraahiim "a god from the gods of Ibrahim."  the genitive Ibrahim's/of Ibrahim automatically makes ilaah god definite.  Which is why Allaah Ibrahim would mean "God is Abraham," never "Ibrahim's God."

Interesting. In English we always add THE when we use the word God in possessive form. THE God of Abraham, Isaac...

What about the use of the word ilah in other possessive forms? ilahukum ilahen wahid is written in a few Qur'an verses. Is this because it is not possible to say Allahukum (your Allah)?

While speaking English, do you say Allah or always translate it into English as God? Would it be possible for a Christian Arab to say that Allah does not exist in English, but exists only in Arabic?  ???
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2013, 05:32:47 PM »
i say 'God' when i pray in english and 'Allah' when i pray in arabic.
of course, i use 'Ilah' in the appropriate grammatical parts of the prayer and in the nicene creed (which is discussed in a previous post).

there are subtle differences (to a non native speaker of arabic; probably big differences to a native speaker) between Christians and muslims when they discuss their beliefs in arabic.
you can generally tell by the context if the arabic speaker is Christian or muslim.

arabic speaking Christians are not at all easily confused with muslims (except by those sort of people who ignore the cross around the neck and references to going to church, and assume that fasting plus speaking arabic equals muslim!)
have to go now, time to pray (yes there will be a little arabic used!)
 ;)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2013, 06:02:36 PM »
i say 'God' when i pray in english and 'Allah' when i pray in arabic.
of course, i use 'Ilah' in the appropriate grammatical parts of the prayer and in the nicene creed (which is discussed in a previous post).

there are subtle differences (to a non native speaker of arabic; probably big differences to a native speaker) between Christians and muslims when they discuss their beliefs in arabic.
you can generally tell by the context if the arabic speaker is Christian or muslim.

arabic speaking Christians are not at all easily confused with muslims (except by those sort of people who ignore the cross around the neck and references to going to church, and assume that fasting plus speaking arabic equals muslim!)
have to go now, time to pray (yes there will be a little arabic used!)
 ;)

Thanks. Al-Masih qaam.  :angel:
Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Online ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox Liturgy in Turkish
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2013, 12:47:36 PM »
No, that would have to be either ilaahun li-Ibrahim "a god to/for Ibrahim" or ilaahun min 'aalihatu Ibraahiim "a god from the gods of Ibrahim."  the genitive Ibrahim's/of Ibrahim automatically makes ilaah god definite.  Which is why Allaah Ibrahim would mean "God is Abraham," never "Ibrahim's God."

Interesting. In English we always add THE when we use the word God in possessive form. THE God of Abraham, Isaac...

What about the use of the word ilah in other possessive forms? ilahukum ilahen wahid is written in a few Qur'an verses. Is this because it is not possible to say Allahukum (your Allah)?
yes, it is not possible: you have to day ilaahukum.

While speaking English, do you say Allah or always translate it into English as God? Would it be possible for a Christian Arab to say that Allah does not exist in English, but exists only in Arabic?  ???
In English it would indicate a Muslim, like saying Yahweh would indicate a reference to ancient Hebrew religious, Jehovah as a puritan ring to it.

Btw, this article on pre-Islamic Arabic inscriptions on pp. 3 and 10 make references to "Allah" in theophoric names, not only pre-Islamic but pre-Christian.
http://www.eis.hu.edu.jo/deanshipfiles/pub103813706.pdf
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth