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Author Topic: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy  (Read 7938 times) Average Rating: 0
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Nazarene
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« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2010, 07:27:25 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?

I think when we enter the Tribulation it is most likely that the Church will return to this ancient practice. She'll have no other choice when the Antichrist and his Beast army start burning the churches to the ground.

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.

There seem to be a tendency among some of us to be overly attached to literally everything, from the smallest detail of worship to the core fundamentals of our Church. Some have made a fetish of the rubrics; others of knots; etc... Put them all together and you may end up with a pharisaic attitude and a devotion to the externals that may well result in a cultist approach to the Church.

This is a legitimate concern to ponder, and more than a few Orthodox Christians certainly give this impression to those outside the Orthodox Church. The Father knows best and His Will will be done, in the end His opinion is the only one that really matters. If He wants the Church to return to her primitive roots He will make it happen, with or without her cooperation. If He feels that the Church is idolizing herself He will bring her to her knees and put her back in her place.
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« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2010, 07:32:50 PM »

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....

Which Bishop made this decision?
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« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2010, 07:43:03 PM »

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....

Which Bishop made this decision?

Ill ask my brother when i see him ,he's joined a Baptist motorcycle club and a veterans motorcycle club that goes every where escorting veteran Bodys from the airports in a motorcycle parade to there final resting places..He been gone awhile now... Grin Watch this space... Smiley
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« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2010, 09:43:21 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?

Also, I think it is important to remember why the Church started mixing the Body and Blood together and putting it in the communicant's mouth.  People were taking it home and putting in their prayer corner and adoring it rather than consuming it.  Christ told us to consume the Body and Blood, not to put it in our prayer corners and adore it. 
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« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2010, 09:56:38 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?

Also, I think it is important to remember why the Church started mixing the Body and Blood together and putting it in the communicant's mouth.  People were taking it home and putting in their prayer corner and adoring it rather than consuming it.  Christ told us to consume the Body and Blood, not to put it in our prayer corners and adore it. 

I had never heard of this before. During which century did people start doing this?
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« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2010, 11:35:44 PM »

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.

There seem to be a tendency among some of us to be overly attached to literally everything, from the smallest detail of worship to the core fundamentals of our Church. Some have made a fetish of the rubrics; others of knots; etc... Put them all together and you may end up with a pharisaic attitude and a devotion to the externals that may well result in a cultist approach to the Church.


Isn't it said ,it's tradition that binds us togeather...when we start eroding our small tradition's than the Our great traditions become fair game then there's nothing left to hang on too..Look at Anglicism, and some other Christian faiths.... Grin
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?
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« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2010, 02:13:16 AM »

If they couldn't handle it or don't agree with the position of the church they are in then they should have not become priests in the first place.

That's like saying to someone, 'If you knew you were going to fall off that chair, you should not have sat on it in the first place'.  How can a man know that he will not be able to handle it until he is actually in that situation?  He may seek advice from those who have gone before, he may weigh up his own knowledge of himself, but he cannot know with absolute certainty.

You may wish to argue that, while living a celibate life in seminary, he would get some sort of better understanding of what that life is, and I am sure that is the case.  Yet seminary is one of those places which has parallels in some other areas of life, where something that seems easy, or even exciting, when we are surrounded by others who are facing the same thing, and where we can support them and be supported by them, can later show itself to be significantly different from what we thought when suddenly that sense of all being in it together is no longer there, and a priest embarks on the often lonely life of trying to face these challenges.

None of this is to condone the actions of these priests.  They pledged their obedience and they then disobeyed.  However, I do not think we can fault them for being unable to predict the future.  That is a spiritual gift that not many people have.
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« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2010, 06:14:22 AM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?

Also, I think it is important to remember why the Church started mixing the Body and Blood together and putting it in the communicant's mouth.  People were taking it home and putting in their prayer corner and adoring it rather than consuming it.  Christ told us to consume the Body and Blood, not to put it in our prayer corners and adore it. 

I had never heard of this before. During which century did people start doing this?

I believe it was the 10th Century, but I don't know for sure. 
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« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2010, 08:41:01 AM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.

I am with you on this Rosehip. The fathers of the Council in Trullo did indeed enact two canons in contravention of 1 Timothy 3 because they said that married bishops caused scandal amongst the laity. The interesting thing is that the fathers said that the laity was scandalized not because a bishop was married but because he continued to cohabit with his wife. Notice that the same Council did not object to married priests and deacons cohabitating (having sexual relations) with their wives. I do not believe that today the same reaction would happen. Instead, the laity today is not apt to be scandalized by sexual relations between a man and his wife, whether they are lay persons, deacons, priests or bishops. Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?

Not to make light of the subject, but they weren't prudes back then compared to us now, regardless of what our modern bias tells us.  What scandalized people then frequently scandalizes us now, and vice-versa.  Ultimately, it won't take long for people to become scandalized by the married life of the bishop - do his kids get away with stuff?  Is he neglecting something because of his family?  Is he not visiting enough parishes?  No matter how "not scandalized" people are by the marriage of priests and deacons, there are still plenty (way too many) who complain about one aspect of our married/family life or another.  It would only be worse for the man who is the "type and in the place of Christ."
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« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2010, 10:24:19 AM »

I don't get it...what you wrote.. Huh
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?

What's that have to do with Keeping our small tradtions, from being erroded away...
I love all our Holy Orthodox Traditions,Great and Small, i don't want to loose any of them ...... Grin

I feel a song rising up in me ...Give me that old time religion it was good for our Holy Father's and it's good enough for me.............. Grin
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« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2010, 10:58:31 AM »



Interfax

Catholic Church will abolish celibacy, Metropolitan Hilarion believes



Moscow, June 3, Interfax – Head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk believes there will be time when Catholic priests would be allowed to have a family.

"I think that the Catholic Church will introduce married priests sooner or later, there's nothing new in it," the Metropolitan said on air the Church and World program on Rossiya 24 TV answering the question whether the Orthodox Church is likely to face the same sex scandal as the Catholic Church.

He reminded that priests and even bishops of the early Church were married.

According to the Metropolitan, married priests "minimize the problem existing and crucial for the Catholic Church."

Dozens of Italian women, who are in close relations with Catholic priests and lay monks, have recently wrote an open letter to Pope Benedict XVI of Rome urging him to abolish celibacy for clerics.

=========================

Orthodoc
   
   
   

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« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2010, 11:57:50 AM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.
Emphasis mine.

I understood the point.  It's the "as a result" that I take issue with.  I don't believe AT ALL that a bishop (or priest) having an affair is "as a result" of their celibacy.  It is "as a result" whatever is happening in their lives.  They are not forced into celibacy.  They choose it.  If they were forced, then I could see grounds for "as a result."  But it was their choice.  And for whatever reason, they betrayed that choice.  I know too many good priests and bishops whose celibacy is quite intact to say that an affair is "as a result" of celibacy.  I hope I'm making sense.  Please, someone, feel free to jump in here if I'm not...
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« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2010, 12:07:03 PM »

GreekChef,

You're making perfect sense to me.  A man or woman who would break a vow of celibacy so flagrantly and repeatedly (as opposed to falling in a moment of weakness and/or seeking to be released from it once he or she realizes that it is too great a burden for them) would break the marriage vows, as well.

Let me be clear.  I am not referring to falling to the temptation itself, but the justification of that temptation.  The rules for Catholic priests and Orthodox monks and bishops are very clear: you are "married" to the Church and have given up as a sacrifice the sexual part of your life.  It will be hard.  You will probably fail.  If you do, confess your sin, get back up and sin no more.  If you find yourself incapable of following the rules for the life you chose, there are ways to be released from that choice.  Do them and get on with your life, repenting of your failings like the rest of us and growing closer to God through that repentance.

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« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2010, 12:08:27 PM »

I must say that if it is true that the Pope said that celibacy is "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord," that really ticks me off.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that one cannot fully devote themselves to the Lord and be married at the same time.  Look at St. Peter himself!  He was married!  How could anyone possibly say that he did not fully devote himself to the Lord?  If a married person is martyred for the Lord, does that mean that their martyrdom is less than full devotion because they were married?  Ridiculous!  This is bad theology, because it sets marriage up as an IMPEDIMENT to full devotion to Christ.  I would think that if Christ thought marriage was an impediment to a relationship with Him, He wouldn't have blessed it.

Presbytera,

I think the emphasis is being unmarried allows the man to devote himself single heartedly to his flock.  And this is the same rational we Byzantines, Orthodox and Catholic, use for having a celibate episcopate.  The Latins have simply applied the same principal to its priests as well.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

Respectfully, Deacon, I have to disagree.  I understand the rationale behind why we allow both celibacy and marriage.  I understand the practical necessity of a bishop being celibate (and I agree 100%, wholeheartedly with it-- I do not believe in a married episcopacy).  But what we believe about marriage and celibacy is that they are two different roads that lead to the same place(provided we travel them well), and that is salvation.  I believe 100% in the legitimacy and importance of BOTH roads.  And I'm sorry, but we do not(and CAN NOT) set one up over another.  We do not set up marriage as an impediment to devoting oneself to Christ.   

As a personal addition to this, I think any married priest (including my husband) would tell you that they devote themselves single-heartedly to Christ too (as would any Presbytera I know, including myself).  They just manifest it differently-- by loving their spouses, making sacrifices in their marriages, and by living faithfully in their marriage, which was blessed by God just as celibacy was. 

I don't want to go into the theological arguments of marriage vs. celibacy (we used to argue it ad nauseum at the seminary, and I had quite enough of it there).  I will just say that I think it is terribly dangerous to set either road over the other, to set up one as more righteous than the other.  Each is valid.  Each requires equal sacrifice and devotion.  Each is blessed by God.  Each is supported by the fathers (I particularly love what St. John Chrysostom says on the subject) and the Tradition of the Church.

Enough of my long winded soapbox now... Smiley
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« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2010, 01:01:01 PM »

We do not set up marriage as an impediment to devoting oneself to Christ.   

Precisely, Presvytera!  In the Marriage Ceremony, the bride and groom are joined together as martyrs (witnesses) who, togteher, die to themselves for the sake of Christ and His Church!  Such is why so many hymns to the martyrs are sung at this service.
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« Reply #105 on: June 04, 2010, 01:58:08 PM »

I must say that if it is true that the Pope said that celibacy is "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord," that really ticks me off.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that one cannot fully devote themselves to the Lord and be married at the same time.  Look at St. Peter himself!  He was married!  How could anyone possibly say that he did not fully devote himself to the Lord?  If a married person is martyred for the Lord, does that mean that their martyrdom is less than full devotion because they were married?  Ridiculous!  This is bad theology, because it sets marriage up as an IMPEDIMENT to full devotion to Christ.  I would think that if Christ thought marriage was an impediment to a relationship with Him, He wouldn't have blessed it.

Presbytera,

I think the emphasis is being unmarried allows the man to devote himself single heartedly to his flock.  And this is the same rational we Byzantines, Orthodox and Catholic, use for having a celibate episcopate.  The Latins have simply applied the same principal to its priests as well.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

Respectfully, Deacon, I have to disagree.  I understand the rationale behind why we allow both celibacy and marriage.  I understand the practical necessity of a bishop being celibate (and I agree 100%, wholeheartedly with it-- I do not believe in a married episcopacy).  But what we believe about marriage and celibacy is that they are two different roads that lead to the same place(provided we travel them well), and that is salvation.  I believe 100% in the legitimacy and importance of BOTH roads.  And I'm sorry, but we do not(and CAN NOT) set one up over another.  We do not set up marriage as an impediment to devoting oneself to Christ.   

As a personal addition to this, I think any married priest (including my husband) would tell you that they devote themselves single-heartedly to Christ too (as would any Presbytera I know, including myself).  They just manifest it differently-- by loving their spouses, making sacrifices in their marriages, and by living faithfully in their marriage, which was blessed by God just as celibacy was. 

I don't want to go into the theological arguments of marriage vs. celibacy (we used to argue it ad nauseum at the seminary, and I had quite enough of it there).  I will just say that I think it is terribly dangerous to set either road over the other, to set up one as more righteous than the other.  Each is valid.  Each requires equal sacrifice and devotion.  Each is blessed by God.  Each is supported by the fathers (I particularly love what St. John Chrysostom says on the subject) and the Tradition of the Church.

Enough of my long winded soapbox now... Smiley

Not long enough; there are many of us who enjoy your witty, learned and wise writings.

May I just say that your passionate defense of married priests is about the best one I have ever read. As the son of a priest and a presvytera, I really appreciate it. As a learner, I am looking forward to you making that same argument for the resurrection of the married episkopate.
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« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2010, 03:02:10 PM »

I don't get it...what you wrote.. Huh
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?

What's that have to do with Keeping our small tradtions, from being erroded away...
I love all our Holy Orthodox Traditions,Great and Small, i don't want to loose any of them ...... Grin
Love has everything to do with the value we place on maintaining our traditions.  What good do you accomplish in striving so hard to keep our beautiful traditions when you harbor such bitterness against others that you look for every opportunity to smear them through the mud?  If we cannot cultivate the spirit of love, then our traditions have failed.  Did not Jesus say that the two greatest commandments are that we love God and love our neighbor?  He didn't say that the greatest commandment is that we keep the traditions.
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« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2010, 03:32:36 PM »

I don't get it...what you wrote.. Huh
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?

What's that have to do with Keeping our small tradtions, from being erroded away...
I love all our Holy Orthodox Traditions,Great and Small, i don't want to loose any of them ...... Grin

I feel a song rising up in me ...Give me that old time religion it was good for our Holy Father's and it's good enough for me.............. Grin


What stashko is really saying
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« Reply #108 on: June 04, 2010, 03:38:00 PM »

I don't get it...what you wrote.. Huh
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?

What's that have to do with Keeping our small tradtions, from being erroded away...
I love all our Holy Orthodox Traditions,Great and Small, i don't want to loose any of them ...... Grin

I feel a song rising up in me ...Give me that old time religion it was good for our Holy Father's and it's good enough for me.............. Grin


What stashko is really saying
I hate that song. Tongue
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