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Author Topic: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy  (Read 8370 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2010, 02:02:05 AM »

Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... Grin

I think it all depends on the region the married priest is in. For I'm not seeing the same picture that you see. On EWTN non of the ones I saw said they couldn't perform mass.

Hello i watch a show a while back where a converted Anglican married priest ,converted to catholisisim,he said they were given teaching type jobs ,not Parish level jobs to hear confessions or say mass..Maybe things have changed for them now ,i can't say though.. Grin
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« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2010, 04:40:24 AM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2010, 05:12:46 AM »

Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... Grin

I think it all depends on the region the married priest is in. For I'm not seeing the same picture that you see. On EWTN non of the ones I saw said they couldn't perform mass.

Hello i watch a show a while back where a converted Anglican married priest ,converted to catholisisim,he said they were given teaching type jobs ,not Parish level jobs to hear confessions or say mass..Maybe things have changed for them now ,i can't say though.. Grin

So you watched a show a while back that you can't name, and we're supposed to take your word over the other Catholic and former Catholic posters on the board who have actually spoken with some authority on the issue? PuhleaseRoll Eyes

Stashko, the sad thing about all this is that I don't get the sense you are posting any of this out of concern for the children, or the women who chose to get into and adulteress relationship with the priest, but rather just to smear the Catholic Church.

If these priests want to marry these women, fine; but laicize them first.

The argument over clergy celibacy is completely separate from the issues raised in the article you have presented.
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« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2010, 06:58:00 AM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin


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« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2010, 07:48:55 AM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin

Could you cite at least one other example of "Holy Orthodoxy" and/or the Serbian Orthodox Church allowing previously married Clergy to remarry after the loss of a spouse whether by death, divorce or otherwise?

There was the thread from 2 years ago which describes how a previously divorced Orthodox Priest requested his own defrocking and laicizing to marry for a second time.

BTW, I was reminded in the above thread that civilly divorced Orthodox Priests can continue to minister.  If an Orthodox Priest is involved in divorce proceedings, are they automatically suspended until the civil and ecclesiastical divorces are granted to minimize risks of scandal or is that a Hierarchical decision on the merits?   Huh
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« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2010, 08:56:18 AM »

I don't know what message the women are trying to get across - adultery, deception, and the breaking of the clerical vow are all ok if you think you're in love?  If the RC allowed for married priests, it would most likely follow the Orthodox model - and, thus, what these women did would still be wrong.  If these men really loved the women with all their hearts, they would ask to be released from their orders.  If these women were really paying attention, they'd notice that they're encouraging the man to deceive someone else (actually, a parish full of "someone else"-s) to continue a relationship - a habit that usually leads to infidelity, which the men are technically doing anyway (since they're "married to the Church").

The woman, unless raped, always has the opportunity and the obligation say "No. Thank you!"

Perhaps some of our young girls should hear that message rather than the lukewarm message that says it takes two to tango....

Stay out of the realm of Psychology, will you?  "It takes two to tango" is a message that both parties have the opportunity and responsibility to say "yes" for an action to happen - thus, indicating that each one has the opportunity to say "no" and the action will not happen.  The message is only lukewarm if the messenger is lukewarm; otherwise, it is exactly the message they need to hear, because it conveys the truth - that both parties who have entered the action are culpable.
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« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2010, 09:51:54 AM »

I would be surprised (and angry) if allowing priests and deacons to remarry was common in the Serbian Church. When Metropolitan Philip did that with Fr. Joseph Allen, there was an uproar in America. Of course today there is a lot of playing fast and loose with tradition. Economia can be entirely misapplied. It is originally meant for salvation, but it often destroys souls as much or more than acrivia--strictness. In the case of allowing priests to remarry, the real economia would be to laicize them and not excommunicate them for the period of time called for by the holy canons.
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« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2010, 10:08:38 AM »

So if a Catholic Priest is burning with desires for a female conpanionship,wouldn't it be better for him to be allowed to marry legally in the eyes of the church ,a blessed union than sneeking around ...This is where the church should allow for economija...to prevent such  from happening.... Grin

IF ANYONE from any confession that calls itself Catholic is BURNING  WITH  DESIRE....then they need to get those prayer ropes and beads out and start fasting hard from food and from the near occasion of sin.

No wonder we are in the moral mess that we are in as a world in general.

Even those who should know better preach license!!

Very sad to watch this thread. 

Mary
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« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2010, 10:14:15 AM »

I disagree that the sin is only on the part of the woman. Everyone knows that a priest is in an unusual position of power/trust and therefore any relationship he may have with a woman is not the same as that of an ordinary man and woman, and is closer to that of a male psychiatrist/female patient. There have been cases of psychiatrists losing their jobs and reputations for entering a forbidden relationship with a vulnerable woman. Should not the church have even higher standards than that of secular therapists? The priest is to be an example of godliness/holiness to his flock, and when he engages in blatantly immoral behaviour, taking advantage of vulnerable women, then he is destroying the trust of the faithful. Of course we women are also responsible to live holy, chaste, modest lives-but the same applies to all men who take being followers of Christ seriously.
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« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2010, 10:18:33 AM »

How are the women primarily at fault?  The priest made the choice to betray his vow of celibacy and to commit fornication, unless the woman raped him.  I would think that both are equally responsible. 

The woman, unless raped, always has the opportunity and the obligation say "No. Thank you!"

Are you serious???!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote
Perhaps some of our young girls should hear that message rather than the lukewarm message that says it takes two to tango....


Are you serious?! This kind of talk about how it's "the women's fault" and the implication that the priests are but poor victims is....I'm sorry I shouldn't say what I think of such "reasoning".

It is an interesting note however that that is in fact the EXACT argument some priests who committed  sexual crimes against teenage girls used as well. After all, they were dressing "inappropriately" and a good looking 16 year is a strong temptation...hence it's THEIR fault for being seduced by their priest. It's also the same line of "reasoning" used in Muslim theocracies where a women who is raped is at fault because after all, she shouldn't have been walking the streets alone without a male relative.

Certainly this is not the same thing as secretly dating 17 year old girls, however the fact that you so readily blame the women, and portray the priests as innocent victims of temptation, is......

well let me just say that it makes Richard Dawkins' and Christopher Hitchens' points, quite well!


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« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2010, 10:19:06 AM »

How can they do that when they are in need of more priests?

Like with everything, they need better quality priests not quantity.  The priests that they are turning out of seminary appear to be very well educated but not up to dealing with the demands of the parishes and the problems that naturally come with.
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« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2010, 11:27:27 AM »

I disagree that the sin is only on the part of the woman. Everyone knows that a priest is in an unusual position of power/trust and therefore any relationship he may have with a woman is not the same as that of an ordinary man and woman, and is closer to that of a male psychiatrist/female patient. There have been cases of psychiatrists losing their jobs and reputations for entering a forbidden relationship with a vulnerable woman. Should not the church have even higher standards than that of secular therapists? The priest is to be an example of godliness/holiness to his flock, and when he engages in blatantly immoral behaviour, taking advantage of vulnerable women, then he is destroying the trust of the faithful. Of course we women are also responsible to live holy, chaste, modest lives-but the same applies to all men who take being followers of Christ seriously.

This is the same psychobabble that I sat and listened to a Lutheran woman pastor blither for years in another venue.  Any woman who would strip down to lust with her confessor knows precisely what she is doing and THAT is the woman I am talking about here....so don't change the age grades on me and tell me I am an idiot!!

And if you want young women to wake up and smell the real roses of spiritual health then get them out of the way of the danger and keep them out of the way.  My sister sews for my niece because all she can afford off the rack makes an eight year old look like a whore, God bless and help them, but that is precisely what they are designed to do.  Pack the ultimate sexual wallop at six and seven.

Do you really buy into that insanity that says a woman should be able to walk naked down the street and not be harmed?...in this country?....in this culture?

Let me tell you something.  I have lived in this country and I've lived in Africa where the women in the countryside do spend a good bit of the hot weather in various stages of undress.  In one of the places where I was for a short while, if a woman or young girl accused a man of rape and there was but a single shred of evidence against him, he was taken out into a field immediately and had a nail driven through his skull.  There were very few accusations of rape in those areas!...and exceptionally few children born outside the boundaries of  husband and wife.

Not THAT is the only kind of society where a woman can safely walk naked in her world.

Mary
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« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2010, 11:30:54 AM »

How are the women primarily at fault?  The priest made the choice to betray his vow of celibacy and to commit fornication, unless the woman raped him.  I would think that both are equally responsible. 

The woman, unless raped, always has the opportunity and the obligation say "No. Thank you!"

Are you serious???!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote
Perhaps some of our young girls should hear that message rather than the lukewarm message that says it takes two to tango....


Are you serious?! This kind of talk about how it's "the women's fault" and the implication that the priests are but poor victims is....I'm sorry I shouldn't say what I think of such "reasoning".


I am absolutely serious...Deadly serious.  But you have in predictable form added something I never said.  I never said the priest is the victim.  He's not.

I did say that the woman is responsible for the good moral order in society with direct reference to sexual morality.  That is did say and that I maintain.

Mary
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« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2010, 11:51:41 AM »

Even we Orthodox don't allow priests to marry, so I don't see how this article is such a ringing endorsement of the abolition of clerical celibacy.

I think you may have misread what I wrote, although the fault appears to be mine as I did not consider the context of my closing thought. In any case, my position has always been:

a. Complement celibate bishops with married bishops, with no change in status after ordination.

b. Allow celibate priests and deacons to complement married ones, again with no change in status after ordination.

c. In all cases be very careful to select those candidates that truly have a calling and will not embarrass the Church later on.
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« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2010, 01:11:53 PM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin

Could you cite at least one other example of "Holy Orthodoxy" and/or the Serbian Orthodox Church allowing previously married Clergy to remarry after the loss of a spouse whether by death, divorce or otherwise?

There was the thread from 2 years ago which describes how a previously divorced Orthodox Priest requested his own defrocking and laicizing to marry for a second time.

BTW, I was reminded in the above thread that civilly divorced Orthodox Priests can continue to minister.  If an Orthodox Priest is involved in divorce proceedings, are they automatically suspended until the civil and ecclesiastical divorces are granted to minimize risks of scandal or is that a Hierarchical decision on the merits?   Huh

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....


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« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2010, 03:35:43 PM »

Even we Orthodox don't allow priests to marry, so I don't see how this article is such a ringing endorsement of the abolition of clerical celibacy.

I think you may have misread what I wrote, although the fault appears to be mine as I did not consider the context of my closing thought. In any case, my position has always been:

a. Complement celibate bishops with married bishops, with no change in status after ordination.

b. Allow celibate priests and deacons to complement married ones, again with no change in status after ordination.

c. In all cases be very careful to select those candidates that truly have a calling and will not embarrass the Church later on.
Actually, the reply you quoted wasn't even directed toward anything you wrote.  I submitted it as a reply to the OP.  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2010, 03:37:37 PM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin

Could you cite at least one other example of "Holy Orthodoxy" and/or the Serbian Orthodox Church allowing previously married Clergy to remarry after the loss of a spouse whether by death, divorce or otherwise?

There was the thread from 2 years ago which describes how a previously divorced Orthodox Priest requested his own defrocking and laicizing to marry for a second time.

BTW, I was reminded in the above thread that civilly divorced Orthodox Priests can continue to minister.  If an Orthodox Priest is involved in divorce proceedings, are they automatically suspended until the civil and ecclesiastical divorces are granted to minimize risks of scandal or is that a Hierarchical decision on the merits?   Huh

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....



Might you be looking at the very few exceptions and trying to see in them justification for making the exceptional practice more common?  I don't think this is wise.
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« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2010, 03:42:53 PM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin

Could you cite at least one other example of "Holy Orthodoxy" and/or the Serbian Orthodox Church allowing previously married Clergy to remarry after the loss of a spouse whether by death, divorce or otherwise?

There was the thread from 2 years ago which describes how a previously divorced Orthodox Priest requested his own defrocking and laicizing to marry for a second time.

BTW, I was reminded in the above thread that civilly divorced Orthodox Priests can continue to minister.  If an Orthodox Priest is involved in divorce proceedings, are they automatically suspended until the civil and ecclesiastical divorces are granted to minimize risks of scandal or is that a Hierarchical decision on the merits?   Huh

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....



Might you be looking at the very few exceptions and trying to see in them justification for making the exceptional practice more common?  I don't think this is wise.

I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church! Wink
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« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2010, 03:48:12 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.
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« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2010, 03:53:28 PM »

IMHO these are to completely separate issues, and the women who wrote the letter did nothing but a complete disservice to those who are in favor of the RC allowing married priests.

Issue 1: Celibacy vs. married priests-- I personally believe that the RC should allow married priests (and not just as an exception).  But that's just me... 

I must say that if it is true that the Pope said that celibacy is "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord," that really ticks me off.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that one cannot fully devote themselves to the Lord and be married at the same time.  Look at St. Peter himself!  He was married!  How could anyone possibly say that he did not fully devote himself to the Lord?  If a married person is martyred for the Lord, does that mean that their martyrdom is less than full devotion because they were married?  Ridiculous!  This is bad theology, because it sets marriage up as an IMPEDIMENT to full devotion to Christ.  I would think that if Christ thought marriage was an impediment to a relationship with Him, He wouldn't have blessed it.

Issue 2: The affairs these women and the priests had-- I'm not going to judge anyone for the mistakes they make, as who knows what may have led them to those mistakes.  But, I feel sorry for them in thinking that the RC is to blame for their failed relationships (which were, frankly, doomed to fail from the start) because of not allowing priests to marry.  The one really has nothing to do with the other.  Infidelity is infidelity, and as Handmaiden said to begin with, they were engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage.  Period.  End of story.
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« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2010, 04:01:41 PM »

Excellent post, Greekchef!
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« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2010, 04:04:53 PM »

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I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?
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« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2010, 04:07:31 PM »

Well...I was mostly thinking along the lines of married bishops, as the NT does say that the bishop is to be the "husband of one wife".
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« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2010, 04:10:21 PM »

Well...I was mostly thinking along the lines of married bishops, as the NT does say that the bishop is to be the "husband of one wife". 

That makes more sense.  I'm not in favor, after growing up in a clergy household, marrying someone who grew up in a clergy household, and being a clergyman myself, of a married Episcopacy.  I think the Fathers were right - it would (even if not initially) cause scandal for the Faithful, and it would certainly lead to too many cases of neglect (of diocese) or divorce.  There are far too many demands on the hierarchs (and rightly so), even more than on the average parish priest.
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« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2010, 04:26:29 PM »

Well...I was mostly thinking along the lines of married bishops, as the NT does say that the bishop is to be the "husband of one wife". 

That makes more sense.  I'm not in favor, after growing up in a clergy household, marrying someone who grew up in a clergy household, and being a clergyman myself, of a married Episcopacy.  I think the Fathers were right - it would (even if not initially) cause scandal for the Faithful, and it would certainly lead to too many cases of neglect (of diocese) or divorce.  There are far too many demands on the hierarchs (and rightly so), even more than on the average parish priest.

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  Undecided What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.
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« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2010, 04:34:07 PM »

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  :- What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.

Not to mention homosexual activity, it can't be denied that it happens.
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« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2010, 04:44:18 PM »

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  :- What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.

Not to mention homosexual activity, it can't be denied that it happens.

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.
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« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2010, 04:58:24 PM »

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  Undecided What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.

Not to mention homosexual activity, it can't be denied that it happens.

See now this is what my spiritual father would call "going nuclear."  It's a HUGE leap to say that being a celibate bishop (or priest) means that they're going to end up engaging in affairs.  When someone has an affair, either celibate or married, it is because they are unhappy in their current situation.  An affair is not a consequence of being celibate.  If this were the case, then ALL celibate bishops and priests would have had affairs.  I think we can agree that this is not the case.  Again, they are two different issues.  Affairs among the clergy are indeed scandalous, there is no doubt.  But they are a consequence of the person, their unhappiness in their life, and their sins, not a consequence of the priesthood.  
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« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2010, 05:00:54 PM »

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  Undecided What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.

Not to mention homosexual activity, it can't be denied that it happens.

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

And neither does being an Irish Catholic ensure morality. The only thing that does is a life that is completely dedicated to following, loving and obeying God and joyfully keeping His commandments. Also, it helps if the church gives proper practical teaching on all these matters.
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« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2010, 05:10:17 PM »

Friendly reminder.  The moratorium is still in effect.  DO NOT VIOLATE IT.
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« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2010, 05:10:34 PM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.
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« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2010, 05:32:18 PM »

Friendly reminder.  The moratorium is still in effect.  DO NOT VIOLATE IT.

I was honestly not aware of this until now, my apologies. BTW note that the PM I sent you was written before I saw the linked page.

BUMP

OK Shultz I may or may not have read the moratorium before, but I can't remember if I did. I won't PM Fr. Chris or Fr. George, keep my profile as "warned" so that I don't forget.
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« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2010, 05:34:33 PM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.

I Agree 101 % How Can it create a scandal if their  married the correct right way,plus it's Scriptural and you can't beat that... Grin
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« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2010, 05:47:38 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

The Vatican council 2 was the worst of the worst ,i wouldn't wish anything like that on anyone ever. I would never say something like what schultz said he heard that i said...... Grin
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« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2010, 05:59:00 PM »

I Love Holy Orthodoxy, It really is a Hospital for the mind ,body soul , and spirit of it's faithful..It shows Great Compassion where it's needed for sinners, but is very firm [ no tolerance ]when it comes to abuse of innocents........ Grin Cheesy police
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« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2010, 06:00:30 PM »

I must say that if it is true that the Pope said that celibacy is "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord," that really ticks me off.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that one cannot fully devote themselves to the Lord and be married at the same time.  Look at St. Peter himself!  He was married!  How could anyone possibly say that he did not fully devote himself to the Lord?  If a married person is martyred for the Lord, does that mean that their martyrdom is less than full devotion because they were married?  Ridiculous!  This is bad theology, because it sets marriage up as an IMPEDIMENT to full devotion to Christ.  I would think that if Christ thought marriage was an impediment to a relationship with Him, He wouldn't have blessed it.

Presbytera,

I think the emphasis is being unmarried allows the man to devote himself single heartedly to his flock.  And this is the same rational we Byzantines, Orthodox and Catholic, use for having a celibate episcopate.  The Latins have simply applied the same principal to its priests as well.  

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2010, 06:03:22 PM »

I Love Holy Orthodoxy, It really is a Hospital for the mind ,body soul , and spirit of it's faithful..It shows Great Compassion where it's needed for sinners, but is very firm [ no tolerance ]when it comes to abuse of innocents........ Grin Cheesy police

There are a few Orthodox ladies on the Internet that would disagree with you most intensely.  And a murderer is a murderer no matter how many murders he commits...or hides.

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« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2010, 06:03:38 PM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.

I am with you on this Rosehip. The fathers of the Council in Trullo did indeed enact two canons in contravention of 1 Timothy 3 because they said that married bishops caused scandal amongst the laity. The interesting thing is that the fathers said that the laity was scandalized not because a bishop was married but because he continued to cohabit with his wife. Notice that the same Council did not object to married priests and deacons cohabitating (having sexual relations) with their wives. I do not believe that today the same reaction would happen. Instead, the laity today is not apt to be scandalized by sexual relations between a man and his wife, whether they are lay persons, deacons, priests or bishops. Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?
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« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2010, 06:19:11 PM »

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

No of course not, but there aren't any other deterrents which are more effective as far as I know.

See now this is what my spiritual father would call "going nuclear."  It's a HUGE leap to say that being a celibate bishop (or priest) means that they're going to end up engaging in affairs.  When someone has an affair, either celibate or married, it is because they are unhappy in their current situation.  An affair is not a consequence of being celibate.  If this were the case, then ALL celibate bishops and priests would have had affairs.  I think we can agree that this is not the case.  Again, they are two different issues.  Affairs among the clergy are indeed scandalous, there is no doubt.  But they are a consequence of the person, their unhappiness in their life, and their sins, not a consequence of the priesthood.

Ne ne alithia. Nevertheless these things still happen which is the only reason I brought "the forbidden topic" up, to state a fact but I'll stop there regarding it now that I know that we can't talk about it. What I do wonder though was whether these issues were as big a problem for the primitive Church - back when the Bishops were married - as they are now. If not, then perhaps returning to the "primitive roots" would be better. The question is whether the current "system" is doing the Church more harm than good, and if so will reverting to the primitive "system" improve things?

Also wouldn't someone need to have considerable experience in ministry to qualify for being ordained a Bishop? And wouldn't this in turn mean that the men who are ordained are at least middle aged, their children have left home, they're possibly grandfathers, etc. Sex becomes less desirable as the married couple age, especially after the wives go through the monstrous phase of Menopause, so I don't see how scandal can increase if Bishops are permitted to marry, though there'll still be the odd case of "dirty old man syndrome" rearing its ugly head now and then no matter what precautions are taken.

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« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2010, 06:20:45 PM »

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Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.
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« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2010, 06:25:00 PM »

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

No of course not, but there aren't any other deterrents which are more effective as far as I know.


Most Holy and Ascetic Orthodoxy...or at least I used to think so some years ago.

Now I will just point to the ascetic life led by the saints of the Church, those who are recognized and those who simply are.

That is the path to holiness.  This world is not our home.

M.
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« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2010, 06:32:20 PM »

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.

There seem to be a tendency among some of us to be overly attached to literally everything, from the smallest detail of worship to the core fundamentals of our Church. Some have made a fetish of the rubrics; others of knots; etc... Put them all together and you may end up with a pharisaic attitude and a devotion to the externals that may well result in a cultist approach to the Church.
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« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2010, 06:35:00 PM »

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

No of course not, but there aren't any other deterrents which are more effective as far as I know.


Most Holy and Ascetic Orthodoxy...or at least I used to think so some years ago.

Now I will just point to the ascetic life led by the saints of the Church, those who are recognized and those who simply are.

That is the path to holiness.  This world is not our home.

M.

Forgive me but I must ask: if that is the case, what are you doing on the Internet, the modern equivalent of the Tower of babel and Sodom and Gomorrah combined?
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« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2010, 07:05:57 PM »

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

No of course not, but there aren't any other deterrents which are more effective as far as I know.


Most Holy and Ascetic Orthodoxy...or at least I used to think so some years ago.

Now I will just point to the ascetic life led by the saints of the Church, those who are recognized and those who simply are.

That is the path to holiness.  This world is not our home.

M.

Forgive me but I must ask: if that is the case, what are you doing on the Internet, the modern equivalent of the Tower of babel and Sodom and Gomorrah combined?

For the same reason that you find monks and priests and nuns on the Internet, dear.  They seek to spread as much of the truth of the Kingdom as is possible to as many as possible.  I hope to be able to emulate them.

Why are you here?

Mary
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« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2010, 07:24:05 PM »

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.

There seem to be a tendency among some of us to be overly attached to literally everything, from the smallest detail of worship to the core fundamentals of our Church. Some have made a fetish of the rubrics; others of knots; etc... Put them all together and you may end up with a pharisaic attitude and a devotion to the externals that may well result in a cultist approach to the Church.


Isn't it said ,it's tradition that binds us togeather...when we start eroding our small tradition's than the Our great traditions become fair game then there's nothing left to hang on too..Look at Anglicism, and some other Christian faiths.... Grin
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