OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 27, 2014, 03:39:19 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy  (Read 8379 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« on: June 02, 2010, 01:31:02 PM »


'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy Grin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/lf_afp/vaticanpopereligionabusewomen

                                          Roll Eyes





           Buzz up!1 vote Send
Email IM .Share
Facebook Twitter Delicious Digg Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks .Print .. AFP/File – Pope Benedict XVI waves as he arrives to lead his weekly general audience in St.Peter's square at … .by Gildas Le Roux Gildas Le Roux – 1 hr 18 mins ago
ROME (AFP) – Pope Benedict XVI, still struggling to repair the damage wrought by a wave of paedophile scandals, now faces a fresh challenge, from women loved -- and often abandoned -- by Catholic priests.

About a dozen women have written an open letter to the pope challenging the Church's position that priestly celibacy is a sacred commitment.

"As far as I'm concerned, celibacy is completely useless," said one of the signatories, Stefania Salomone, 42, who had a five-year relationship with a priest.

"It was introduced for financial reasons," she argued, alluding to the fact that clergy without family were less expensive to house.

Pointing to the Church's earlier history, she added: "People forget that there were 39 married popes."

The letter was partly a reaction to recent comments by the pope upholding the nearly 900-year-old requirement of celibacy for priests, calling it "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord".

Salomone said: "We told ourselves it was time to react."

Written in March, the letter was initially kept confidential, but late last month it was leaked to news website GlobalPost, and the women decided to tell their stories.

"Only three women agreed to sign the letter by name, because of the fear that if a woman goes public with her story, her companion priest would break up with her," Salomone said.

As a result, the women who decided to go public were speaking about past relationships, she said.

Luisa, 38, said she had a relationship -- and a child -- with a priest who is now 35. They met six years ago when he was the priest in a nearby parish.

"He came to live with me," Luisa said. "He told his family that he was living in his parish, and his parish that he was living with his family."

The people in Luisa's village looked the other way, she said, adding that the couple considered joining the Anglican Communion, which allows its priests to marry, so that they could come out of the closet.

But in the end the priest decided to leave Luisa, even before the birth of the child, now aged 20 months. "It was very hard. His family sent him to an exorcist and accused me of being a witch.

"As for the bishop, he told me to have my child adopted," she said.

Her son is now 20 months old. His purported father saw him for only 10 minutes when he was just two months old: "And that was all," Luisa said, adding that he had refused to acknowledge his paternity.

She said she was disgusted with the attitude of the Catholic Church and decided to have her son baptised in the Anglican Communion.

Salomone's experience was no less painful.

"It started as a trusting relationship, a relationship typical of those that develop between a priest and those involved in parish activities," she said.

The priest "was unable to accept his feelings. He was very disturbed and didn't know how to react."

Salomone added: "I felt bad because he was ashamed of his feelings. For him, I became a burden, like one person too many. In the end he managed to deny his feelings and soon told me he didn't want to see me anymore."

Salomone has no patience for the Church's doctrinal arguments for celibacy.

"There is no reason in the world to justify anyone forbidding another person a fundamental right," she said.

Even some members of the Catholic hierarchy appear to agree.

At a conference in Austria last month, Bishop Alois Schwarz of the Carinthia diocese urged new discussion of the issue of celibacy and the ordination of married men.

His comments echoed similar views expressed by his colleague, the bishop of Eisenstadt, Paul Iby.

And in March, Vienna Archbishop Christoph Schoenborn even said the Church should take a fresh look at celibacy when considering the possible causes behind the sex abuse scandal.

See http://rentapriest.blogspot.com/2010/05/priests-women-speak-out.html for the English version of the letter.
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 01:53:36 PM »

Whether or not the Catholic Church would allow married men to become priests, what these women have done is scandalous.

They are sleeping with men outside of marriage, and then writing to the Church because they won't condone the relationship! Terrible!

Furthermore, the men who took the vows of celibacy knew about the celibate requirement prior to their ordination to the priesthood. For them to voluntarily take the vow and then complain about it is ludicrous!

My Spiritual Father is a Hiermonk in the Orthodox Church. He told me prior to taking his monastic vows, the Bishop passed the tonsuring scissors to him three times asking if he was "sure" of his decision. The decision was completely his and was completely voluntary. Nobody put a gun to his head.

In regards to these women, they are basically the equivalent of the "other woman" in an adulteress affair that is complaining that her boyfriend is married. Except in this case instead of the wife being a female, it is the bride of Christ, the Church. These women knew they what they were getting into when they started to sleep with these priests; I just think that complaining about it is absolutely disgusting!

The whole article is disgusting to me.

It is not the Catholic Church that is the villain here. It is the priests and their lovers who are!
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,436



« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 02:04:22 PM »

It isn't as though Anglican priests and bishops cannot find time to go out and indulge themselves in adultery, after all.
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,271



« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 02:06:49 PM »

I agree with you Handmaiden. They voluntarily took a vow so they should stick with it and not complain. If they couldn't handle it or don't agree with the position of the church they are in then they should have not become priests in the first place.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 02:07:53 PM »

I agree with you Handmaiden. They voluntarily took a vow so they should stick with it and not complain. If they couldn't handle it or don't agree with the position of the church they are in then they should have not become priests in the first place.

They can also voluntarily ask to be relieved of their vows.  

From my point of view, the wrong that the Catholic Church is doing here is not being hard enough of the priests caught fathering children.  They should be defrocked and sent on their way to their new vocation: husband- and fatherhood.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 02:09:28 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
ICXCNIKA
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 661



« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2010, 02:28:12 PM »

I think it is the fact that the laity want a married priesthood and the Vatican's irrational inconsistency on the topic that makes it a hot topic issue. In the RC Archdiocese of NY 10% of the priests were married converts, and that figure is about 5 to 10 years old. Why should they be allowed to be married? The priests in Africa also take the same vows and still have wives but the vatican does not enforce it because they are being culturally sensitive to "african values".
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2010, 02:36:21 PM »

I think it is the fact that the laity want a married priesthood and the Vatican's irrational inconsistency on the topic that makes it a hot topic issue. In the RC Archdiocese of NY 10% of the priests were married converts, and that figure is about 5 to 10 years old. Why should they be allowed to be married? The priests in Africa also take the same vows and still have wives but the vatican does not enforce it because they are being culturally sensitive to "african values".

Some days it become crystal clear why Jesus gave us the parable of the workers in the vineyard. 

I agree that the women are essentially at fault here...as much as any adulteress is at fault.  There is NOTHING but lust that forces a woman to have sex with a married man.

Besides the woman highlighted in the article clearly got herself involved with a man who appears to have been somewhat reluctant.  It seems to me the author should have been smart enough to find an example where the priest pestered the woman and plied her with his charms to the point where she became a victim of her environment.... Lips Sealed
Logged

tuesdayschild
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 971



« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2010, 03:11:21 PM »

'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/lf_afp/vaticanpopereligionabusewomen

"vaticanpopereligionabusewomen"

No bias in that URL.  Nope.  Not at all.
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,247



« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2010, 03:20:07 PM »

A friend of mine who did extensive work with the Jesuits here in Omaha (attached to Creighton University, a Jesuit institution) once told me of some of her conversations with them. Just casually, she asked how the priests handled celibacy.  The priest responded, "We're single, not celibate."  My friend could tell by the expression on his face that this was no attempt at a joke.

I believe that there are many who enter the Catholic priesthood (or any other priesthood) for the wrong reasons.  For some, it's because they have no other place to go, for others, maybe it's a power trip. Who knows?  But if you don't want to conform to the rules of that priestly order, then they need to be shown the door.  Like the priest abuse scandal, this is an equal scandal.   How many parishioners would leave the RC church if they found out their priest had a secret life and was having an affair and fathering kids out of wedlock?  As liberal as the American congregations may be, I believe that even this would be hard to stomach.

I'm not suggesting the Vatican changes its rules.  I'm not a Catholic and no Catholic priest is my spiritual confessor.  But what they  need to do is do a better vetting process all around to make sure that those who are entrusted with God's flock are there for the right reasons and are truly worthy of such a calling, not doing it because they feel they cannot do anything else.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 03:31:43 PM by scamandrius » Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 03:23:40 PM »

I agree, scamandarius.

I also think that the Vatican and its followers need to do a be a little more heavy handed when it comes to those men who are found to flagrantly violate their vows, sort of a "Fool me once..." type thing. 

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,932



« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 03:29:30 PM »

I think it is the fact that the laity want a married priesthood and the Vatican's irrational inconsistency on the topic that makes it a hot topic issue. In the RC Archdiocese of NY 10% of the priests were married converts, and that figure is about 5 to 10 years old. Why should they be allowed to be married? The priests in Africa also take the same vows and still have wives but the vatican does not enforce it because they are being culturally sensitive to "african values".

Some days it become crystal clear why Jesus gave us the parable of the workers in the vineyard. 

I agree that the women are essentially at fault here...as much as any adulteress is at fault.  There is NOTHING but lust that forces a woman to have sex with a married man.

Besides the woman highlighted in the article clearly got herself involved with a man who appears to have been somewhat reluctant.  It seems to me the author should have been smart enough to find an example where the priest pestered the woman and plied her with his charms to the point where she became a victim of her environment.... Lips Sealed

I am told that it is typical in such cases for women to be more critical of the "other woman" than the cheating man. In any case, I think both are equally at fault but the priest, who is married to the Lord, is certainly guilty of adultery and breaking of his priestly vows, among other things. There is of course no theological reason for a priest or bishop to be celibate, but that is for another discussion.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2010, 05:49:35 PM »

Even we Orthodox don't allow priests to marry, so I don't see how this article is such a ringing endorsement of the abolition of clerical celibacy.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2010, 06:24:04 PM »

I think it is the fact that the laity want a married priesthood and the Vatican's irrational inconsistency on the topic that makes it a hot topic issue. In the RC Archdiocese of NY 10% of the priests were married converts, and that figure is about 5 to 10 years old. Why should they be allowed to be married? The priests in Africa also take the same vows and still have wives but the vatican does not enforce it because they are being culturally sensitive to "african values".

Some days it become crystal clear why Jesus gave us the parable of the workers in the vineyard.  

I agree that the women are essentially at fault here...as much as any adulteress is at fault.  There is NOTHING but lust that forces a woman to have sex with a married man.

Besides the woman highlighted in the article clearly got herself involved with a man who appears to have been somewhat reluctant.  It seems to me the author should have been smart enough to find an example where the priest pestered the woman and plied her with his charms to the point where she became a victim of her environment.... Lips Sealed

I am told that it is typical in such cases for women to be more critical of the "other woman" than the cheating man. In any case, I think both are equally at fault but the priest, who is married to the Lord, is certainly guilty of adultery and breaking of his priestly vows, among other things. There is of course no theological reason for a priest or bishop to be celibate, but that is for another discussion.

Perhaps women who are so hard on adulterous women: 1) have had the experience of having to say "No" on moral grounds, or 2) stupidly said yes and watched families fall apart all around them.

Are there situations where the second time around works?...some...but not many and the price is hellish for a few years worth of earthy cares.

So doubt the credibility of the women who growl.  They probably know better from experience.

M.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 06:25:11 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2010, 06:29:04 PM »

It takes two to tango ,The woman can't be blamed for all what's happened ,Priest's should know better leading the woman on....This is a lesser evil than the  predatory child molesting Clergy...... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2010, 06:33:52 PM »

It takes two to tango ,The woman can't be blamed for all what's happened ,Priest's should know better leading the woman on....This is a lesser evil than the  predatory child molesting Clergy...... Grin

 laugh laugh laugh  This is junk psychology and worse theology  laugh laugh laugh

figgers
Logged

katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2010, 06:37:51 PM »

How are the women primarily at fault?  The priest made the choice to betray his vow of celibacy and to commit fornication, unless the woman raped him.  I would think that both are equally responsible. 
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2010, 06:54:51 PM »

How are the women primarily at fault?  The priest made the choice to betray his vow of celibacy and to commit fornication, unless the woman raped him.  I would think that both are equally responsible. 

The woman, unless raped, always has the opportunity and the obligation say "No. Thank you!"

Perhaps some of our young girls should hear that message rather than the lukewarm message that says it takes two to tango....


M.
Logged

katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2010, 08:41:01 PM »

The priest is a grown man and is responsible for his actions.  We are to repent for our sins, and part of repentance is taking full responsibility for our actions and not blaming others for it.  A priest that commits fornication is responsible for that decision.  By the way, the priest also has the responsibility to say "no thank you" when a woman comes on to him.  Believe it or not, men are capable of saying "no" too.  Christ does expect us to at least make an effort to overcome temptation.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 08:44:42 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2010, 10:22:36 PM »

The priest is a grown man and is responsible for his actions.  We are to repent for our sins, and part of repentance is taking full responsibility for our actions and not blaming others for it.  A priest that commits fornication is responsible for that decision.  By the way, the priest also has the responsibility to say "no thank you" when a woman comes on to him.  Believe it or not, men are capable of saying "no" too.  Christ does expect us to at least make an effort to overcome temptation.

Women need to hear more often that THEY are in control of potentially sexually charged situations outside of violent attacks against themselves and that modesty should prevent them from ever getting into one of those situations and chastity should be sufficient to get them out of it if it happens unexpectedly.

We are not stupid, dear heart.  We have simply been allowed to believe we have some sort of equal place in the world.  We do not!

We are essentially in charge of the moral life of this world and its time we picked that banner back up because it belongs to us by divine gift, and if you doubt that spend a little extra time with the Theotokos and ponder her life and death and her life in the world to come and see what you find...

Mary
Logged

katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2010, 10:31:48 PM »

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I respect men enough to believe that they are capable of overcoming temptation and living a holy life--the male saints are proof of that.  I also have enough respect for men to believe that they are capable of taking responsibility for their own actions and not blaming it all on the person whom he sinned with (kind of "the devil made me do it"--only the devil can't make us do things). 
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2010, 10:58:35 PM »

Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... Grin
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 11:00:45 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2010, 11:03:21 PM »

Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2010, 11:16:47 PM »

Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... Grin
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 11:22:42 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,688


WWW
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2010, 11:24:04 PM »

Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... Grin

Would you feel the same way if your Archimandrite Orthodox Priest (sorry, I don't know the term for Archimandrite in Church Slavonic) had an affair with a woman which produced a child?   Huh
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2010, 11:24:42 PM »

'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/lf_afp/vaticanpopereligionabusewomen

"vaticanpopereligionabusewomen"

No bias in that URL.  Nope.  Not at all.


Please explain..I don't get it.... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2010, 11:35:00 PM »

Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... Grin

Would you feel the same way if your Archimandrite Orthodox Priest (sorry, I don't know the term for Archimandrite in Church Slavonic) had an affair with a woman which produced a child?   Huh

Yes it would be Fine with me ...Plus they would have to get married because of it...
In the Serbian church they allowed [economija] at times for a Deacon and even a priest to remarry that was married before...
I would love to see  also in my lifetime married Bishops and ordained women Deaconesses...Grant it oh Lord...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 11:42:29 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2010, 11:42:56 PM »


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... Grin

Bull.  Fr. Dwight Longenecker is pretty famous in traditional (and even non-traditional) Roman Catholic circles and a hot commodity on the Catholic lecture circuit.

He's also a married Latin-rite priest who was formerly an Anglican clergyman.

He certainly has his own parish (and has bi-ritual faculties in the Maronite rite!) and is certainly not in the shadows.

You really don't verify much of what you say, do you, stashko?  You'll just come up with anything and tag a "I heard from someone..." statement on it to make yourself feel better about your false witness so long as it makes the Vatican look bad.

Roman Catholic priests who cannot abide by their own vows of celibacy should ask to be released from that vow and move on with their lives.  As I have said elsewhere, in a very real sense, every Roman Catholic priest is a sort of monk.  

Let me ask you this: would you suggest that the Orthodox Church let a hieromonk who fathered a child in violation of his vows to be allowed to continue as a parish priest somewhere because he "wants to remain a priest"?  I would think that the local bishop would tell him to get a job and support his new family.  

Rome should tell these priests the exact same thing in these cases.  
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2010, 11:43:58 PM »

Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... Grin

Would you feel the same way if your Archimandrite Orthodox Priest (sorry, I don't know the term for Archimandrite in Church Slavonic) had an affair with a woman which produced a child?   Huh

Yes it would be Fine with me ...Plus they would have to get married because of it...
In the Serbian church they allowed [economija] at times for a Deacon and even a priest to remarry that was married before...
I would love to see  also in my lifetime married Bishops and ordained women Deaconesses...Grant it oh Lord...

AH HA!  I knew it!  Innovationist!
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,688


WWW
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2010, 11:44:50 PM »

Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... Grin

Would you feel the same way if your Archimandrite Orthodox Priest (sorry, I don't know the term for Archimandrite in Church Slavonic) had an affair with a woman which produced a child?   Huh

Yes it would be Fine with me ...

So a man, who marries the Church, is OK to be with a woman and remain married to the Church.  Last time I checked, the Orthodox Church did not allow bigamy....

In the Serbian church they allowed [economija] at times for a Deacon and even a priest to remarry that was married before...
I would love to see in also my lifetime married Bishops and ordained women Deaconesses...

There is a thread where a widowed GOA Priest had himself defrocked and laicized to marry a woman that he fell in love with while fulfilling pastoral obligations....
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,247



« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2010, 11:46:11 PM »

Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... Grin

These aren't families though.  These are unions born out of lust and the children are the result.  I believe the priests should do the honorable thing and marry the women and adopt the children as legitimate.  But there's no reason for them to continue as priests.  There is no economia in the Roman tradition.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Paisius
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Wherever the wind blows......
Posts: 1,200


Scheherazade


« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2010, 11:48:25 PM »

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I respect men enough to believe that they are capable of overcoming temptation and living a holy life--the male saints are proof of that.  I also have enough respect for men to believe that they are capable of taking responsibility for their own actions and not blaming it all on the person whom he sinned with (kind of "the devil made me do it"--only the devil can't make us do things). 

Of course we men do have a proud tradition of blaming women for our sins (see Adam in the Garden of EdenWink
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2010, 11:55:56 PM »

So a man, who marries the Church, is OK to be with a woman and remain married to the Church.  Last time I checked, the Orthodox Church did not allow bigamy....


I never as a serbian orthodox heard this that a future priest marries the church..sound Latin to me  Huh..
I did hear that Christ is the bridegroom and the church is his bride though..Clergy are his shepherds.... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2010, 12:09:13 AM »

Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... Grin

These aren't families though.  These are unions born out of lust and the children are the result.  I believe the priests should do the honorable thing and marry the women and adopt the children as legitimate.  But there's no reason for them to continue as priests.  There is no economia in the Roman tradition.


None of this is a unforgivable sin,that can't be forgiven by christ..so in the mean time destroy a family label the kids as bastards,,evict a perfectly good priest,that only wanted a family,and wants to serve God ....

Really No economija could of fooled me didn't they use it for the predatory child molesting clergy for years and years...um Grin
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 12:15:25 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2010, 12:20:10 AM »

Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... Grin

These aren't families though.  These are unions born out of lust and the children are the result.  I believe the priests should do the honorable thing and marry the women and adopt the children as legitimate.  But there's no reason for them to continue as priests.  There is no economia in the Roman tradition.


None of this is a unforgivable sin,that can't be forgiven by christ..so in the mean time destroy a family label the kids as bastards,,evict a perfectly good priest,that only wanted a family,and wants to serve God ....

Really No economija could of fooled me didn't they use it for the predatory child molesting clergy for years and years...um Grin
But what Tradition do we have to support such an innovative practice outside of the Tradition of your own mind?
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,688


WWW
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2010, 12:45:19 AM »

So a man, who marries the Church, is OK to be with a woman and remain married to the Church.  Last time I checked, the Orthodox Church did not allow bigamy....

I never as a serbian orthodox heard this that a future priest marries the church..sound Latin to me  Huh..

If a single, unmarried man is ordained to the Holy Diaconate (and later to the Holy Priesthood and even later elevated to the Holy Episcopate) and is led around the altar each time to the chant of Holy Martyrs, Glory to Thee, O Christ and Dance O Isaiah (which are the same hymns chanted at a Baptism and during the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony), that sounds Latin to you?   Huh  I admit I don't know the liturgical traditions of the Serbian Orthodox Church; However, I can't imagine that the Serbian Orthodox would tolerate an unmarried Priest becoming involved with a woman and fathering a child with her.

I did hear that Christ is the bridegroom and the church is his bride though..Clergy are his shepherds.... Grin

You are correct on one thing.   Roll Eyes
Clergy serve as representatives of the Bishop (who represents Christ) who can't tend to his entire flock at once.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 12:50:46 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2010, 12:54:41 AM »

If our Saintly Fr. Ambrose should happen to chime in ,and give me any correction in anything i erred in ill abide by it,and stand corrected...till then ..... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2010, 12:59:14 AM »

When The Blessed St.Paul Mentioned the Passage In scripture,Better To Marry Than to Burn With Desire ,Im sure He Didn't Mean it just for Lay People it would apply For Clergy as well..... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,688


WWW
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2010, 01:05:50 AM »

When The Blessed St.Paul Mentioned the Passage In scripture,Better To Marry Than to Burn With Desire ,Im sure He Didn't Mean it just for Lay People it would apply For Clergy as well..... Grin

Have you forgotten how the tribe of Levi was "set aside" by God to serve as Priests in the Temple in Jerusalem?

Have you forgotten that the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony "sets aside" a man and a woman?

Finally, you forget that the Sacrament of Ordination "sets aside" a single man for the Priesthood and beyond?

What St. Paul said was in response to the fornication practiced during His time (and our time, as well).  However, St. Paul never sanctioned fornication between Clergy and Laity.  Please don't use the last sentence as a springboard on your attacks against Roman Catholicism.  Thank You.    Smiley police  Smiley

Perhaps as words of wisdom for all of us, the most recent post by Silver on the Counsels of the Holy Mountain Thread:

Quote
For this reason they also misunderstand the texts of the sacred Scriptures and of the holy Fathers, since humility, with a pure and enlightened conscience, is absent. “A self-advised man is his own enemy”. That is, one who listens to what his thoughts tell him ..., becomes his own foe.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 01:19:31 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2010, 01:21:06 AM »

So if a Catholic Priest is burning with desires for a female conpanionship,wouldn't it be better for him to be allowed to marry legally in the eyes of the church ,a blessed union than sneeking around ...This is where the church should allow for economija...to prevent such  from happening.... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2010, 01:27:37 AM »

It takes two to tango ,The woman can't be blamed for all what's happened ,Priest's should know better leading the woman on....This is a lesser evil than the  predatory child molesting Clergy...... Grin
Perhaps it would be better to require all Catholic priests to marry. My guess is that requiring priests to have a wife  would be beneficial in many respects. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 01:44:27 AM by stanley123 » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,688


WWW
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2010, 01:28:20 AM »

So if a Catholic Priest is burning with desires for a female conpanionship,wouldn't it be better for him to be allowed to marry legally in the eyes of the church ,a blessed union than sneeking around ...This is where the church should allow for economija...to prevent such  from happening.... Grin

Do you understand the history of celibacy in the Roman Catholic Church?  Why not learn about how celibacy developed among Roman Catholic Priests?   Smiley  The website does say that celibacy is an issue; however, finding an unbiased source is difficult....
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 01:30:02 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2010, 01:31:07 AM »

So if a Catholic Priest is burning with desires for a female conpanionship,wouldn't it be better for him to be allowed to marry legally in the eyes of the church ,a blessed union than sneeking around ...This is where the church should allow for economija...to prevent such  from happening.... Grin
I can agree with you on one condition:  that the priest be laicized first.  He knew full well when he made his ordination vows what he was committing himself to.  If he wants to no longer fulfill those vows so he can marry and father a family, then let him renounce his vows and return to life as a layman.  That's the way it currently is in our Church.  Why should it be any different for priests of the Latin church?
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2010, 01:31:47 AM »

A friend of mine who did extensive work with the Jesuits here in Omaha (attached to Creighton University, a Jesuit institution) once told me of some of her conversations with them. Just casually, she asked how the priests handled celibacy.  The priest responded, "We're single, not celibate."  My friend could tell by the expression on his face that this was no attempt at a joke.

I believe that there are many who enter the Catholic priesthood (or any other priesthood) for the wrong reasons.  For some, it's because they have no other place to go, for others, maybe it's a power trip. Who knows?  But if you don't want to conform to the rules of that priestly order, then they need to be shown the door.  Like the priest abuse scandal, this is an equal scandal.   How many parishioners would leave the RC church if they found out their priest had a secret life and was having an affair and fathering kids out of wedlock?  As liberal as the American congregations may be, I believe that even this would be hard to stomach.

I'm not suggesting the Vatican changes its rules.  I'm not a Catholic and no Catholic priest is my spiritual confessor.  But what they  need to do is do a better vetting process all around to make sure that those who are entrusted with God's flock are there for the right reasons and are truly worthy of such a calling, not doing it because they feel they cannot do anything else.

How can they do that when they are in need of more priests?
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2010, 01:36:40 AM »

Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... Grin

I think it all depends on the region the married priest is in. For I'm not seeing the same picture that you see. On EWTN non of the ones I saw said they couldn't perform mass.
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2010, 01:51:28 AM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2010, 02:02:05 AM »

Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... Grin

I think it all depends on the region the married priest is in. For I'm not seeing the same picture that you see. On EWTN non of the ones I saw said they couldn't perform mass.

Hello i watch a show a while back where a converted Anglican married priest ,converted to catholisisim,he said they were given teaching type jobs ,not Parish level jobs to hear confessions or say mass..Maybe things have changed for them now ,i can't say though.. Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2010, 04:40:24 AM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2010, 05:12:46 AM »

Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... Grin

I think it all depends on the region the married priest is in. For I'm not seeing the same picture that you see. On EWTN non of the ones I saw said they couldn't perform mass.

Hello i watch a show a while back where a converted Anglican married priest ,converted to catholisisim,he said they were given teaching type jobs ,not Parish level jobs to hear confessions or say mass..Maybe things have changed for them now ,i can't say though.. Grin

So you watched a show a while back that you can't name, and we're supposed to take your word over the other Catholic and former Catholic posters on the board who have actually spoken with some authority on the issue? PuhleaseRoll Eyes

Stashko, the sad thing about all this is that I don't get the sense you are posting any of this out of concern for the children, or the women who chose to get into and adulteress relationship with the priest, but rather just to smear the Catholic Church.

If these priests want to marry these women, fine; but laicize them first.

The argument over clergy celibacy is completely separate from the issues raised in the article you have presented.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2010, 06:58:00 AM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin


Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,688


WWW
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2010, 07:48:55 AM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin

Could you cite at least one other example of "Holy Orthodoxy" and/or the Serbian Orthodox Church allowing previously married Clergy to remarry after the loss of a spouse whether by death, divorce or otherwise?

There was the thread from 2 years ago which describes how a previously divorced Orthodox Priest requested his own defrocking and laicizing to marry for a second time.

BTW, I was reminded in the above thread that civilly divorced Orthodox Priests can continue to minister.  If an Orthodox Priest is involved in divorce proceedings, are they automatically suspended until the civil and ecclesiastical divorces are granted to minimize risks of scandal or is that a Hierarchical decision on the merits?   Huh
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2010, 08:56:18 AM »

I don't know what message the women are trying to get across - adultery, deception, and the breaking of the clerical vow are all ok if you think you're in love?  If the RC allowed for married priests, it would most likely follow the Orthodox model - and, thus, what these women did would still be wrong.  If these men really loved the women with all their hearts, they would ask to be released from their orders.  If these women were really paying attention, they'd notice that they're encouraging the man to deceive someone else (actually, a parish full of "someone else"-s) to continue a relationship - a habit that usually leads to infidelity, which the men are technically doing anyway (since they're "married to the Church").

The woman, unless raped, always has the opportunity and the obligation say "No. Thank you!"

Perhaps some of our young girls should hear that message rather than the lukewarm message that says it takes two to tango....

Stay out of the realm of Psychology, will you?  "It takes two to tango" is a message that both parties have the opportunity and responsibility to say "yes" for an action to happen - thus, indicating that each one has the opportunity to say "no" and the action will not happen.  The message is only lukewarm if the messenger is lukewarm; otherwise, it is exactly the message they need to hear, because it conveys the truth - that both parties who have entered the action are culpable.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2010, 09:51:54 AM »

I would be surprised (and angry) if allowing priests and deacons to remarry was common in the Serbian Church. When Metropolitan Philip did that with Fr. Joseph Allen, there was an uproar in America. Of course today there is a lot of playing fast and loose with tradition. Economia can be entirely misapplied. It is originally meant for salvation, but it often destroys souls as much or more than acrivia--strictness. In the case of allowing priests to remarry, the real economia would be to laicize them and not excommunicate them for the period of time called for by the holy canons.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2010, 10:08:38 AM »

So if a Catholic Priest is burning with desires for a female conpanionship,wouldn't it be better for him to be allowed to marry legally in the eyes of the church ,a blessed union than sneeking around ...This is where the church should allow for economija...to prevent such  from happening.... Grin

IF ANYONE from any confession that calls itself Catholic is BURNING  WITH  DESIRE....then they need to get those prayer ropes and beads out and start fasting hard from food and from the near occasion of sin.

No wonder we are in the moral mess that we are in as a world in general.

Even those who should know better preach license!!

Very sad to watch this thread. 

Mary
Logged

Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2010, 10:14:15 AM »

I disagree that the sin is only on the part of the woman. Everyone knows that a priest is in an unusual position of power/trust and therefore any relationship he may have with a woman is not the same as that of an ordinary man and woman, and is closer to that of a male psychiatrist/female patient. There have been cases of psychiatrists losing their jobs and reputations for entering a forbidden relationship with a vulnerable woman. Should not the church have even higher standards than that of secular therapists? The priest is to be an example of godliness/holiness to his flock, and when he engages in blatantly immoral behaviour, taking advantage of vulnerable women, then he is destroying the trust of the faithful. Of course we women are also responsible to live holy, chaste, modest lives-but the same applies to all men who take being followers of Christ seriously.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2010, 10:18:33 AM »

How are the women primarily at fault?  The priest made the choice to betray his vow of celibacy and to commit fornication, unless the woman raped him.  I would think that both are equally responsible. 

The woman, unless raped, always has the opportunity and the obligation say "No. Thank you!"

Are you serious???!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote
Perhaps some of our young girls should hear that message rather than the lukewarm message that says it takes two to tango....


Are you serious?! This kind of talk about how it's "the women's fault" and the implication that the priests are but poor victims is....I'm sorry I shouldn't say what I think of such "reasoning".

It is an interesting note however that that is in fact the EXACT argument some priests who committed  sexual crimes against teenage girls used as well. After all, they were dressing "inappropriately" and a good looking 16 year is a strong temptation...hence it's THEIR fault for being seduced by their priest. It's also the same line of "reasoning" used in Muslim theocracies where a women who is raped is at fault because after all, she shouldn't have been walking the streets alone without a male relative.

Certainly this is not the same thing as secretly dating 17 year old girls, however the fact that you so readily blame the women, and portray the priests as innocent victims of temptation, is......

well let me just say that it makes Richard Dawkins' and Christopher Hitchens' points, quite well!


Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,247



« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2010, 10:19:06 AM »

How can they do that when they are in need of more priests?

Like with everything, they need better quality priests not quantity.  The priests that they are turning out of seminary appear to be very well educated but not up to dealing with the demands of the parishes and the problems that naturally come with.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2010, 11:27:27 AM »

I disagree that the sin is only on the part of the woman. Everyone knows that a priest is in an unusual position of power/trust and therefore any relationship he may have with a woman is not the same as that of an ordinary man and woman, and is closer to that of a male psychiatrist/female patient. There have been cases of psychiatrists losing their jobs and reputations for entering a forbidden relationship with a vulnerable woman. Should not the church have even higher standards than that of secular therapists? The priest is to be an example of godliness/holiness to his flock, and when he engages in blatantly immoral behaviour, taking advantage of vulnerable women, then he is destroying the trust of the faithful. Of course we women are also responsible to live holy, chaste, modest lives-but the same applies to all men who take being followers of Christ seriously.

This is the same psychobabble that I sat and listened to a Lutheran woman pastor blither for years in another venue.  Any woman who would strip down to lust with her confessor knows precisely what she is doing and THAT is the woman I am talking about here....so don't change the age grades on me and tell me I am an idiot!!

And if you want young women to wake up and smell the real roses of spiritual health then get them out of the way of the danger and keep them out of the way.  My sister sews for my niece because all she can afford off the rack makes an eight year old look like a whore, God bless and help them, but that is precisely what they are designed to do.  Pack the ultimate sexual wallop at six and seven.

Do you really buy into that insanity that says a woman should be able to walk naked down the street and not be harmed?...in this country?....in this culture?

Let me tell you something.  I have lived in this country and I've lived in Africa where the women in the countryside do spend a good bit of the hot weather in various stages of undress.  In one of the places where I was for a short while, if a woman or young girl accused a man of rape and there was but a single shred of evidence against him, he was taken out into a field immediately and had a nail driven through his skull.  There were very few accusations of rape in those areas!...and exceptionally few children born outside the boundaries of  husband and wife.

Not THAT is the only kind of society where a woman can safely walk naked in her world.

Mary
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2010, 11:30:54 AM »

How are the women primarily at fault?  The priest made the choice to betray his vow of celibacy and to commit fornication, unless the woman raped him.  I would think that both are equally responsible. 

The woman, unless raped, always has the opportunity and the obligation say "No. Thank you!"

Are you serious???!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote
Perhaps some of our young girls should hear that message rather than the lukewarm message that says it takes two to tango....


Are you serious?! This kind of talk about how it's "the women's fault" and the implication that the priests are but poor victims is....I'm sorry I shouldn't say what I think of such "reasoning".


I am absolutely serious...Deadly serious.  But you have in predictable form added something I never said.  I never said the priest is the victim.  He's not.

I did say that the woman is responsible for the good moral order in society with direct reference to sexual morality.  That is did say and that I maintain.

Mary
Logged

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,932



« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2010, 11:51:41 AM »

Even we Orthodox don't allow priests to marry, so I don't see how this article is such a ringing endorsement of the abolition of clerical celibacy.

I think you may have misread what I wrote, although the fault appears to be mine as I did not consider the context of my closing thought. In any case, my position has always been:

a. Complement celibate bishops with married bishops, with no change in status after ordination.

b. Allow celibate priests and deacons to complement married ones, again with no change in status after ordination.

c. In all cases be very careful to select those candidates that truly have a calling and will not embarrass the Church later on.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2010, 01:11:53 PM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin

Could you cite at least one other example of "Holy Orthodoxy" and/or the Serbian Orthodox Church allowing previously married Clergy to remarry after the loss of a spouse whether by death, divorce or otherwise?

There was the thread from 2 years ago which describes how a previously divorced Orthodox Priest requested his own defrocking and laicizing to marry for a second time.

BTW, I was reminded in the above thread that civilly divorced Orthodox Priests can continue to minister.  If an Orthodox Priest is involved in divorce proceedings, are they automatically suspended until the civil and ecclesiastical divorces are granted to minimize risks of scandal or is that a Hierarchical decision on the merits?   Huh

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....


Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2010, 03:35:43 PM »

Even we Orthodox don't allow priests to marry, so I don't see how this article is such a ringing endorsement of the abolition of clerical celibacy.

I think you may have misread what I wrote, although the fault appears to be mine as I did not consider the context of my closing thought. In any case, my position has always been:

a. Complement celibate bishops with married bishops, with no change in status after ordination.

b. Allow celibate priests and deacons to complement married ones, again with no change in status after ordination.

c. In all cases be very careful to select those candidates that truly have a calling and will not embarrass the Church later on.
Actually, the reply you quoted wasn't even directed toward anything you wrote.  I submitted it as a reply to the OP.  Wink
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2010, 03:37:37 PM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin

Could you cite at least one other example of "Holy Orthodoxy" and/or the Serbian Orthodox Church allowing previously married Clergy to remarry after the loss of a spouse whether by death, divorce or otherwise?

There was the thread from 2 years ago which describes how a previously divorced Orthodox Priest requested his own defrocking and laicizing to marry for a second time.

BTW, I was reminded in the above thread that civilly divorced Orthodox Priests can continue to minister.  If an Orthodox Priest is involved in divorce proceedings, are they automatically suspended until the civil and ecclesiastical divorces are granted to minimize risks of scandal or is that a Hierarchical decision on the merits?   Huh

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....



Might you be looking at the very few exceptions and trying to see in them justification for making the exceptional practice more common?  I don't think this is wise.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2010, 03:42:53 PM »

They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... Grin
So let them marry before they pursue ordination and let them be ordained as already married men.  Allowing priests to marry after their ordinations and continue serving as priests is something we don't do even in the Orthodox Church.  Why, then, do you see this as a valid option for the Catholic Church?

That not always true..ekonomija plays apart here...
Exceptions Have Been made in Holy Orthodoxy   For priests and Deacons..to marry again after there marrage failed or in case of death of there spouses..its happened in the serbian church...A few times or even more.... Grin

Could you cite at least one other example of "Holy Orthodoxy" and/or the Serbian Orthodox Church allowing previously married Clergy to remarry after the loss of a spouse whether by death, divorce or otherwise?

There was the thread from 2 years ago which describes how a previously divorced Orthodox Priest requested his own defrocking and laicizing to marry for a second time.

BTW, I was reminded in the above thread that civilly divorced Orthodox Priests can continue to minister.  If an Orthodox Priest is involved in divorce proceedings, are they automatically suspended until the civil and ecclesiastical divorces are granted to minimize risks of scandal or is that a Hierarchical decision on the merits?   Huh

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....



Might you be looking at the very few exceptions and trying to see in them justification for making the exceptional practice more common?  I don't think this is wise.

I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church! Wink
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2010, 03:48:12 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2010, 03:53:28 PM »

IMHO these are to completely separate issues, and the women who wrote the letter did nothing but a complete disservice to those who are in favor of the RC allowing married priests.

Issue 1: Celibacy vs. married priests-- I personally believe that the RC should allow married priests (and not just as an exception).  But that's just me... 

I must say that if it is true that the Pope said that celibacy is "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord," that really ticks me off.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that one cannot fully devote themselves to the Lord and be married at the same time.  Look at St. Peter himself!  He was married!  How could anyone possibly say that he did not fully devote himself to the Lord?  If a married person is martyred for the Lord, does that mean that their martyrdom is less than full devotion because they were married?  Ridiculous!  This is bad theology, because it sets marriage up as an IMPEDIMENT to full devotion to Christ.  I would think that if Christ thought marriage was an impediment to a relationship with Him, He wouldn't have blessed it.

Issue 2: The affairs these women and the priests had-- I'm not going to judge anyone for the mistakes they make, as who knows what may have led them to those mistakes.  But, I feel sorry for them in thinking that the RC is to blame for their failed relationships (which were, frankly, doomed to fail from the start) because of not allowing priests to marry.  The one really has nothing to do with the other.  Infidelity is infidelity, and as Handmaiden said to begin with, they were engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage.  Period.  End of story.
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2010, 04:01:41 PM »

Excellent post, Greekchef!
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2010, 04:04:53 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2010, 04:07:31 PM »

Well...I was mostly thinking along the lines of married bishops, as the NT does say that the bishop is to be the "husband of one wife".
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2010, 04:10:21 PM »

Well...I was mostly thinking along the lines of married bishops, as the NT does say that the bishop is to be the "husband of one wife". 

That makes more sense.  I'm not in favor, after growing up in a clergy household, marrying someone who grew up in a clergy household, and being a clergyman myself, of a married Episcopacy.  I think the Fathers were right - it would (even if not initially) cause scandal for the Faithful, and it would certainly lead to too many cases of neglect (of diocese) or divorce.  There are far too many demands on the hierarchs (and rightly so), even more than on the average parish priest.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2010, 04:26:29 PM »

Well...I was mostly thinking along the lines of married bishops, as the NT does say that the bishop is to be the "husband of one wife". 

That makes more sense.  I'm not in favor, after growing up in a clergy household, marrying someone who grew up in a clergy household, and being a clergyman myself, of a married Episcopacy.  I think the Fathers were right - it would (even if not initially) cause scandal for the Faithful, and it would certainly lead to too many cases of neglect (of diocese) or divorce.  There are far too many demands on the hierarchs (and rightly so), even more than on the average parish priest.

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  Undecided What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2010, 04:34:07 PM »

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  :- What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.

Not to mention homosexual activity, it can't be denied that it happens.
 Nazarene,

You know full well of the moratorium that is still in effect.  As such, you are hereby given a green warning dot for 14 days.  If you feel this is in error or unfair, please PM FrChris or Fr. George.

-Schultz, Religious Topics section moderator
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 04:34:26 PM by Nazarene » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2010, 04:44:18 PM »

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  :- What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.

Not to mention homosexual activity, it can't be denied that it happens.

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.
elijahmaria,

For continuing this conversation on homosexuality in spite of the Moratorium that is still in effect, and for doing so after I had already informed you of the Moratorium, you are now on post moderation.  You will still be able to send and receive private messages, but every one of your posts must now be approved by a moderator before it will appear on the forum.  If you think this action wrong, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George, Veniamin, or Fr. Chris.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 11:54:18 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2010, 04:58:24 PM »

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  Undecided What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.

Not to mention homosexual activity, it can't be denied that it happens.

See now this is what my spiritual father would call "going nuclear."  It's a HUGE leap to say that being a celibate bishop (or priest) means that they're going to end up engaging in affairs.  When someone has an affair, either celibate or married, it is because they are unhappy in their current situation.  An affair is not a consequence of being celibate.  If this were the case, then ALL celibate bishops and priests would have had affairs.  I think we can agree that this is not the case.  Again, they are two different issues.  Affairs among the clergy are indeed scandalous, there is no doubt.  But they are a consequence of the person, their unhappiness in their life, and their sins, not a consequence of the priesthood.  
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 05:11:42 PM by Schultz » Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2010, 05:00:54 PM »

I understand the demands on the bishops, but how would a married bishop cause scandal amongst the faithful?  Undecided What is more scandalous to me is a so-called celibate bishop who has a mistress and children on the side!?! Now THAT is scandalous!  And maybe, if we didn't so freely allow divorce and remarriage, but rather, men and women entered marriage with the knowledge that marriage is a life-long committment, there would be far fewer divorces.

Not to mention homosexual activity, it can't be denied that it happens.

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

And neither does being an Irish Catholic ensure morality. The only thing that does is a life that is completely dedicated to following, loving and obeying God and joyfully keeping His commandments. Also, it helps if the church gives proper practical teaching on all these matters.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2010, 05:10:17 PM »

Friendly reminder.  The moratorium is still in effect.  DO NOT VIOLATE IT.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2010, 05:10:34 PM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2010, 05:32:18 PM »

Friendly reminder.  The moratorium is still in effect.  DO NOT VIOLATE IT.

I was honestly not aware of this until now, my apologies. BTW note that the PM I sent you was written before I saw the linked page.

BUMP

OK Shultz I may or may not have read the moratorium before, but I can't remember if I did. I won't PM Fr. Chris or Fr. George, keep my profile as "warned" so that I don't forget.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 05:45:08 PM by Nazarene » Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2010, 05:34:33 PM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.

I Agree 101 % How Can it create a scandal if their  married the correct right way,plus it's Scriptural and you can't beat that... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2010, 05:47:38 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

The Vatican council 2 was the worst of the worst ,i wouldn't wish anything like that on anyone ever. I would never say something like what schultz said he heard that i said...... Grin
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 06:08:07 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2010, 05:59:00 PM »

I Love Holy Orthodoxy, It really is a Hospital for the mind ,body soul , and spirit of it's faithful..It shows Great Compassion where it's needed for sinners, but is very firm [ no tolerance ]when it comes to abuse of innocents........ Grin Cheesy police
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,000


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2010, 06:00:30 PM »

I must say that if it is true that the Pope said that celibacy is "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord," that really ticks me off.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that one cannot fully devote themselves to the Lord and be married at the same time.  Look at St. Peter himself!  He was married!  How could anyone possibly say that he did not fully devote himself to the Lord?  If a married person is martyred for the Lord, does that mean that their martyrdom is less than full devotion because they were married?  Ridiculous!  This is bad theology, because it sets marriage up as an IMPEDIMENT to full devotion to Christ.  I would think that if Christ thought marriage was an impediment to a relationship with Him, He wouldn't have blessed it.

Presbytera,

I think the emphasis is being unmarried allows the man to devote himself single heartedly to his flock.  And this is the same rational we Byzantines, Orthodox and Catholic, use for having a celibate episcopate.  The Latins have simply applied the same principal to its priests as well.  

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2010, 06:03:22 PM »

I Love Holy Orthodoxy, It really is a Hospital for the mind ,body soul , and spirit of it's faithful..It shows Great Compassion where it's needed for sinners, but is very firm [ no tolerance ]when it comes to abuse of innocents........ Grin Cheesy police

There are a few Orthodox ladies on the Internet that would disagree with you most intensely.  And a murderer is a murderer no matter how many murders he commits...or hides.

M.
Logged

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,932



« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2010, 06:03:38 PM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.

I am with you on this Rosehip. The fathers of the Council in Trullo did indeed enact two canons in contravention of 1 Timothy 3 because they said that married bishops caused scandal amongst the laity. The interesting thing is that the fathers said that the laity was scandalized not because a bishop was married but because he continued to cohabit with his wife. Notice that the same Council did not object to married priests and deacons cohabitating (having sexual relations) with their wives. I do not believe that today the same reaction would happen. Instead, the laity today is not apt to be scandalized by sexual relations between a man and his wife, whether they are lay persons, deacons, priests or bishops. Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 06:04:38 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2010, 06:19:11 PM »

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

No of course not, but there aren't any other deterrents which are more effective as far as I know.

See now this is what my spiritual father would call "going nuclear."  It's a HUGE leap to say that being a celibate bishop (or priest) means that they're going to end up engaging in affairs.  When someone has an affair, either celibate or married, it is because they are unhappy in their current situation.  An affair is not a consequence of being celibate.  If this were the case, then ALL celibate bishops and priests would have had affairs.  I think we can agree that this is not the case.  Again, they are two different issues.  Affairs among the clergy are indeed scandalous, there is no doubt.  But they are a consequence of the person, their unhappiness in their life, and their sins, not a consequence of the priesthood.

Ne ne alithia. Nevertheless these things still happen which is the only reason I brought "the forbidden topic" up, to state a fact but I'll stop there regarding it now that I know that we can't talk about it. What I do wonder though was whether these issues were as big a problem for the primitive Church - back when the Bishops were married - as they are now. If not, then perhaps returning to the "primitive roots" would be better. The question is whether the current "system" is doing the Church more harm than good, and if so will reverting to the primitive "system" improve things?

Also wouldn't someone need to have considerable experience in ministry to qualify for being ordained a Bishop? And wouldn't this in turn mean that the men who are ordained are at least middle aged, their children have left home, they're possibly grandfathers, etc. Sex becomes less desirable as the married couple age, especially after the wives go through the monstrous phase of Menopause, so I don't see how scandal can increase if Bishops are permitted to marry, though there'll still be the odd case of "dirty old man syndrome" rearing its ugly head now and then no matter what precautions are taken.

Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2010, 06:20:45 PM »

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2010, 06:25:00 PM »

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

No of course not, but there aren't any other deterrents which are more effective as far as I know.


Most Holy and Ascetic Orthodoxy...or at least I used to think so some years ago.

Now I will just point to the ascetic life led by the saints of the Church, those who are recognized and those who simply are.

That is the path to holiness.  This world is not our home.

M.
Logged

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,932



« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2010, 06:32:20 PM »

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.

There seem to be a tendency among some of us to be overly attached to literally everything, from the smallest detail of worship to the core fundamentals of our Church. Some have made a fetish of the rubrics; others of knots; etc... Put them all together and you may end up with a pharisaic attitude and a devotion to the externals that may well result in a cultist approach to the Church.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,932



« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2010, 06:35:00 PM »

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

No of course not, but there aren't any other deterrents which are more effective as far as I know.


Most Holy and Ascetic Orthodoxy...or at least I used to think so some years ago.

Now I will just point to the ascetic life led by the saints of the Church, those who are recognized and those who simply are.

That is the path to holiness.  This world is not our home.

M.

Forgive me but I must ask: if that is the case, what are you doing on the Internet, the modern equivalent of the Tower of babel and Sodom and Gomorrah combined?
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2010, 07:05:57 PM »

Spurious.

I grew up playing with the youngest daughter in an Irish Catholic family.  On Saturday night around a very large dining table and a second child's table sat the Father and the Mother, Twelve Children and the Father's Boyfriend.

So one cannot presume when it comes to morality.

Marriage does not ensure morality.

M.

No of course not, but there aren't any other deterrents which are more effective as far as I know.


Most Holy and Ascetic Orthodoxy...or at least I used to think so some years ago.

Now I will just point to the ascetic life led by the saints of the Church, those who are recognized and those who simply are.

That is the path to holiness.  This world is not our home.

M.

Forgive me but I must ask: if that is the case, what are you doing on the Internet, the modern equivalent of the Tower of babel and Sodom and Gomorrah combined?

For the same reason that you find monks and priests and nuns on the Internet, dear.  They seek to spread as much of the truth of the Kingdom as is possible to as many as possible.  I hope to be able to emulate them.

Why are you here?

Mary
Logged

stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2010, 07:24:05 PM »

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.

There seem to be a tendency among some of us to be overly attached to literally everything, from the smallest detail of worship to the core fundamentals of our Church. Some have made a fetish of the rubrics; others of knots; etc... Put them all together and you may end up with a pharisaic attitude and a devotion to the externals that may well result in a cultist approach to the Church.


Isn't it said ,it's tradition that binds us togeather...when we start eroding our small tradition's than the Our great traditions become fair game then there's nothing left to hang on too..Look at Anglicism, and some other Christian faiths.... Grin
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 07:29:15 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2010, 07:27:25 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?

I think when we enter the Tribulation it is most likely that the Church will return to this ancient practice. She'll have no other choice when the Antichrist and his Beast army start burning the churches to the ground.

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.

There seem to be a tendency among some of us to be overly attached to literally everything, from the smallest detail of worship to the core fundamentals of our Church. Some have made a fetish of the rubrics; others of knots; etc... Put them all together and you may end up with a pharisaic attitude and a devotion to the externals that may well result in a cultist approach to the Church.

This is a legitimate concern to ponder, and more than a few Orthodox Christians certainly give this impression to those outside the Orthodox Church. The Father knows best and His Will will be done, in the end His opinion is the only one that really matters. If He wants the Church to return to her primitive roots He will make it happen, with or without her cooperation. If He feels that the Church is idolizing herself He will bring her to her knees and put her back in her place.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,688


WWW
« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2010, 07:32:50 PM »

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....

Which Bishop made this decision?
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2010, 07:43:03 PM »

There's a Serbian Priest even now that my Brother Mentioned ,who has several children either his wife left him or she past away ,he's being granted the premisson to marry again,for the sake of his children...Cannon laws are a guide post from what ive read on this forum,but not the ten commandments written in stone....

Which Bishop made this decision?

Ill ask my brother when i see him ,he's joined a Baptist motorcycle club and a veterans motorcycle club that goes every where escorting veteran Bodys from the airports in a motorcycle parade to there final resting places..He been gone awhile now... Grin Watch this space... Smiley
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2010, 09:43:21 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?

Also, I think it is important to remember why the Church started mixing the Body and Blood together and putting it in the communicant's mouth.  People were taking it home and putting in their prayer corner and adoring it rather than consuming it.  Christ told us to consume the Body and Blood, not to put it in our prayer corners and adore it. 
Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2010, 09:56:38 PM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?

Also, I think it is important to remember why the Church started mixing the Body and Blood together and putting it in the communicant's mouth.  People were taking it home and putting in their prayer corner and adoring it rather than consuming it.  Christ told us to consume the Body and Blood, not to put it in our prayer corners and adore it. 

I had never heard of this before. During which century did people start doing this?
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2010, 11:35:44 PM »

Quote
Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?


Precisely! And that makes me wonder if we are making an idol out of the Church.

There seem to be a tendency among some of us to be overly attached to literally everything, from the smallest detail of worship to the core fundamentals of our Church. Some have made a fetish of the rubrics; others of knots; etc... Put them all together and you may end up with a pharisaic attitude and a devotion to the externals that may well result in a cultist approach to the Church.


Isn't it said ,it's tradition that binds us togeather...when we start eroding our small tradition's than the Our great traditions become fair game then there's nothing left to hang on too..Look at Anglicism, and some other Christian faiths.... Grin
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?
Logged
Subdeacon Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 195



« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2010, 02:13:16 AM »

If they couldn't handle it or don't agree with the position of the church they are in then they should have not become priests in the first place.

That's like saying to someone, 'If you knew you were going to fall off that chair, you should not have sat on it in the first place'.  How can a man know that he will not be able to handle it until he is actually in that situation?  He may seek advice from those who have gone before, he may weigh up his own knowledge of himself, but he cannot know with absolute certainty.

You may wish to argue that, while living a celibate life in seminary, he would get some sort of better understanding of what that life is, and I am sure that is the case.  Yet seminary is one of those places which has parallels in some other areas of life, where something that seems easy, or even exciting, when we are surrounded by others who are facing the same thing, and where we can support them and be supported by them, can later show itself to be significantly different from what we thought when suddenly that sense of all being in it together is no longer there, and a priest embarks on the often lonely life of trying to face these challenges.

None of this is to condone the actions of these priests.  They pledged their obedience and they then disobeyed.  However, I do not think we can fault them for being unable to predict the future.  That is a spiritual gift that not many people have.
Logged

'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2010, 06:14:22 AM »

Quote
I think his true colors are showing through.  Stashko wants the Orthodox church to return to its more primitive roots and have married bishops and deaconesses and such.  I heard someone say he wants us to have a council like the Roman Catholics did at Vatican 2.  We might even get to take the Eucharist home like they did in the early Church!


I don't know anything about Vatican 2 councils, but what would be wrong with the rest? Maybe we would do well to return to our primitive roots, and admit that some of the things we've picked up over the centuries really are not in keeping with the spirit of the NT church.

If anyone believes that the Church now isn't the spiritual & temporal successor of the NT Church, then they should consider another faith.

As for "the rest," I'll begin and end with the one: taking the Eucharist home.  People don't even know how to take care of their own bodies, their own possessions, their children, their souls, their pets, etc.  Why should anyone take home the Body and Blood of Christ (being set over much) when they aren't capable of the more mundane tasks (being faithful for a little)?

Also, I think it is important to remember why the Church started mixing the Body and Blood together and putting it in the communicant's mouth.  People were taking it home and putting in their prayer corner and adoring it rather than consuming it.  Christ told us to consume the Body and Blood, not to put it in our prayer corners and adore it. 

I had never heard of this before. During which century did people start doing this?

I believe it was the 10th Century, but I don't know for sure. 
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2010, 08:41:01 AM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.

I am with you on this Rosehip. The fathers of the Council in Trullo did indeed enact two canons in contravention of 1 Timothy 3 because they said that married bishops caused scandal amongst the laity. The interesting thing is that the fathers said that the laity was scandalized not because a bishop was married but because he continued to cohabit with his wife. Notice that the same Council did not object to married priests and deacons cohabitating (having sexual relations) with their wives. I do not believe that today the same reaction would happen. Instead, the laity today is not apt to be scandalized by sexual relations between a man and his wife, whether they are lay persons, deacons, priests or bishops. Thus, I believe that what is holding us back from doing the right thing is an understandable reluctance to change, especially if it involves any insinuation that the Church may have gotten it wrong. Is outrage!!!! no?

Not to make light of the subject, but they weren't prudes back then compared to us now, regardless of what our modern bias tells us.  What scandalized people then frequently scandalizes us now, and vice-versa.  Ultimately, it won't take long for people to become scandalized by the married life of the bishop - do his kids get away with stuff?  Is he neglecting something because of his family?  Is he not visiting enough parishes?  No matter how "not scandalized" people are by the marriage of priests and deacons, there are still plenty (way too many) who complain about one aspect of our married/family life or another.  It would only be worse for the man who is the "type and in the place of Christ."
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2010, 10:24:19 AM »

I don't get it...what you wrote.. Huh
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?

What's that have to do with Keeping our small tradtions, from being erroded away...
I love all our Holy Orthodox Traditions,Great and Small, i don't want to loose any of them ...... Grin

I feel a song rising up in me ...Give me that old time religion it was good for our Holy Father's and it's good enough for me.............. Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2010, 10:58:31 AM »



Interfax

Catholic Church will abolish celibacy, Metropolitan Hilarion believes



Moscow, June 3, Interfax – Head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk believes there will be time when Catholic priests would be allowed to have a family.

"I think that the Catholic Church will introduce married priests sooner or later, there's nothing new in it," the Metropolitan said on air the Church and World program on Rossiya 24 TV answering the question whether the Orthodox Church is likely to face the same sex scandal as the Catholic Church.

He reminded that priests and even bishops of the early Church were married.

According to the Metropolitan, married priests "minimize the problem existing and crucial for the Catholic Church."

Dozens of Italian women, who are in close relations with Catholic priests and lay monks, have recently wrote an open letter to Pope Benedict XVI of Rome urging him to abolish celibacy for clerics.

=========================

Orthodoc
   
   
   

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2010, 11:57:50 AM »

GreekChef, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that  ALL bishops were going to have affairs, it was simply that there are well-known cases of bishops who have mistresses and illigitimate children as a result, and that to me, this is FAR more scandalous than the thought of a married bishop.  I guess I was trying to understand how married bishops could cause scandal amongst the laity, when even the NT says that bishops should be "the husband of one wife" and other specifications for a bishop and how he manages himself and his family.
Emphasis mine.

I understood the point.  It's the "as a result" that I take issue with.  I don't believe AT ALL that a bishop (or priest) having an affair is "as a result" of their celibacy.  It is "as a result" whatever is happening in their lives.  They are not forced into celibacy.  They choose it.  If they were forced, then I could see grounds for "as a result."  But it was their choice.  And for whatever reason, they betrayed that choice.  I know too many good priests and bishops whose celibacy is quite intact to say that an affair is "as a result" of celibacy.  I hope I'm making sense.  Please, someone, feel free to jump in here if I'm not...
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2010, 12:07:03 PM »

GreekChef,

You're making perfect sense to me.  A man or woman who would break a vow of celibacy so flagrantly and repeatedly (as opposed to falling in a moment of weakness and/or seeking to be released from it once he or she realizes that it is too great a burden for them) would break the marriage vows, as well.

Let me be clear.  I am not referring to falling to the temptation itself, but the justification of that temptation.  The rules for Catholic priests and Orthodox monks and bishops are very clear: you are "married" to the Church and have given up as a sacrifice the sexual part of your life.  It will be hard.  You will probably fail.  If you do, confess your sin, get back up and sin no more.  If you find yourself incapable of following the rules for the life you chose, there are ways to be released from that choice.  Do them and get on with your life, repenting of your failings like the rest of us and growing closer to God through that repentance.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2010, 12:08:27 PM »

I must say that if it is true that the Pope said that celibacy is "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord," that really ticks me off.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that one cannot fully devote themselves to the Lord and be married at the same time.  Look at St. Peter himself!  He was married!  How could anyone possibly say that he did not fully devote himself to the Lord?  If a married person is martyred for the Lord, does that mean that their martyrdom is less than full devotion because they were married?  Ridiculous!  This is bad theology, because it sets marriage up as an IMPEDIMENT to full devotion to Christ.  I would think that if Christ thought marriage was an impediment to a relationship with Him, He wouldn't have blessed it.

Presbytera,

I think the emphasis is being unmarried allows the man to devote himself single heartedly to his flock.  And this is the same rational we Byzantines, Orthodox and Catholic, use for having a celibate episcopate.  The Latins have simply applied the same principal to its priests as well.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

Respectfully, Deacon, I have to disagree.  I understand the rationale behind why we allow both celibacy and marriage.  I understand the practical necessity of a bishop being celibate (and I agree 100%, wholeheartedly with it-- I do not believe in a married episcopacy).  But what we believe about marriage and celibacy is that they are two different roads that lead to the same place(provided we travel them well), and that is salvation.  I believe 100% in the legitimacy and importance of BOTH roads.  And I'm sorry, but we do not(and CAN NOT) set one up over another.  We do not set up marriage as an impediment to devoting oneself to Christ.   

As a personal addition to this, I think any married priest (including my husband) would tell you that they devote themselves single-heartedly to Christ too (as would any Presbytera I know, including myself).  They just manifest it differently-- by loving their spouses, making sacrifices in their marriages, and by living faithfully in their marriage, which was blessed by God just as celibacy was. 

I don't want to go into the theological arguments of marriage vs. celibacy (we used to argue it ad nauseum at the seminary, and I had quite enough of it there).  I will just say that I think it is terribly dangerous to set either road over the other, to set up one as more righteous than the other.  Each is valid.  Each requires equal sacrifice and devotion.  Each is blessed by God.  Each is supported by the fathers (I particularly love what St. John Chrysostom says on the subject) and the Tradition of the Church.

Enough of my long winded soapbox now... Smiley
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,247



« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2010, 01:01:01 PM »

We do not set up marriage as an impediment to devoting oneself to Christ.   

Precisely, Presvytera!  In the Marriage Ceremony, the bride and groom are joined together as martyrs (witnesses) who, togteher, die to themselves for the sake of Christ and His Church!  Such is why so many hymns to the martyrs are sung at this service.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,932



« Reply #105 on: June 04, 2010, 01:58:08 PM »

I must say that if it is true that the Pope said that celibacy is "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord," that really ticks me off.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that one cannot fully devote themselves to the Lord and be married at the same time.  Look at St. Peter himself!  He was married!  How could anyone possibly say that he did not fully devote himself to the Lord?  If a married person is martyred for the Lord, does that mean that their martyrdom is less than full devotion because they were married?  Ridiculous!  This is bad theology, because it sets marriage up as an IMPEDIMENT to full devotion to Christ.  I would think that if Christ thought marriage was an impediment to a relationship with Him, He wouldn't have blessed it.

Presbytera,

I think the emphasis is being unmarried allows the man to devote himself single heartedly to his flock.  And this is the same rational we Byzantines, Orthodox and Catholic, use for having a celibate episcopate.  The Latins have simply applied the same principal to its priests as well.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

Respectfully, Deacon, I have to disagree.  I understand the rationale behind why we allow both celibacy and marriage.  I understand the practical necessity of a bishop being celibate (and I agree 100%, wholeheartedly with it-- I do not believe in a married episcopacy).  But what we believe about marriage and celibacy is that they are two different roads that lead to the same place(provided we travel them well), and that is salvation.  I believe 100% in the legitimacy and importance of BOTH roads.  And I'm sorry, but we do not(and CAN NOT) set one up over another.  We do not set up marriage as an impediment to devoting oneself to Christ.   

As a personal addition to this, I think any married priest (including my husband) would tell you that they devote themselves single-heartedly to Christ too (as would any Presbytera I know, including myself).  They just manifest it differently-- by loving their spouses, making sacrifices in their marriages, and by living faithfully in their marriage, which was blessed by God just as celibacy was. 

I don't want to go into the theological arguments of marriage vs. celibacy (we used to argue it ad nauseum at the seminary, and I had quite enough of it there).  I will just say that I think it is terribly dangerous to set either road over the other, to set up one as more righteous than the other.  Each is valid.  Each requires equal sacrifice and devotion.  Each is blessed by God.  Each is supported by the fathers (I particularly love what St. John Chrysostom says on the subject) and the Tradition of the Church.

Enough of my long winded soapbox now... Smiley

Not long enough; there are many of us who enjoy your witty, learned and wise writings.

May I just say that your passionate defense of married priests is about the best one I have ever read. As the son of a priest and a presvytera, I really appreciate it. As a learner, I am looking forward to you making that same argument for the resurrection of the married episkopate.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2010, 03:02:10 PM »

I don't get it...what you wrote.. Huh
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?

What's that have to do with Keeping our small tradtions, from being erroded away...
I love all our Holy Orthodox Traditions,Great and Small, i don't want to loose any of them ...... Grin
Love has everything to do with the value we place on maintaining our traditions.  What good do you accomplish in striving so hard to keep our beautiful traditions when you harbor such bitterness against others that you look for every opportunity to smear them through the mud?  If we cannot cultivate the spirit of love, then our traditions have failed.  Did not Jesus say that the two greatest commandments are that we love God and love our neighbor?  He didn't say that the greatest commandment is that we keep the traditions.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 03:05:50 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2010, 03:32:36 PM »

I don't get it...what you wrote.. Huh
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?

What's that have to do with Keeping our small tradtions, from being erroded away...
I love all our Holy Orthodox Traditions,Great and Small, i don't want to loose any of them ...... Grin

I feel a song rising up in me ...Give me that old time religion it was good for our Holy Father's and it's good enough for me.............. Grin


What stashko is really saying
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,945


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #108 on: June 04, 2010, 03:38:00 PM »

I don't get it...what you wrote.. Huh
But have you forgotten St. Paul's preaching that "the greatest of these is love"?

What's that have to do with Keeping our small tradtions, from being erroded away...
I love all our Holy Orthodox Traditions,Great and Small, i don't want to loose any of them ...... Grin

I feel a song rising up in me ...Give me that old time religion it was good for our Holy Father's and it's good enough for me.............. Grin


What stashko is really saying
I hate that song. Tongue
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.359 seconds with 135 queries.