Author Topic: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy  (Read 8907 times)

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Offline stashko

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'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« on: June 02, 2010, 01:31:02 PM »

'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy ;D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/lf_afp/vaticanpopereligionabusewomen

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ROME (AFP) – Pope Benedict XVI, still struggling to repair the damage wrought by a wave of paedophile scandals, now faces a fresh challenge, from women loved -- and often abandoned -- by Catholic priests.

About a dozen women have written an open letter to the pope challenging the Church's position that priestly celibacy is a sacred commitment.

"As far as I'm concerned, celibacy is completely useless," said one of the signatories, Stefania Salomone, 42, who had a five-year relationship with a priest.

"It was introduced for financial reasons," she argued, alluding to the fact that clergy without family were less expensive to house.

Pointing to the Church's earlier history, she added: "People forget that there were 39 married popes."

The letter was partly a reaction to recent comments by the pope upholding the nearly 900-year-old requirement of celibacy for priests, calling it "the sign of full devotion" and of an "entire commitment to the Lord".

Salomone said: "We told ourselves it was time to react."

Written in March, the letter was initially kept confidential, but late last month it was leaked to news website GlobalPost, and the women decided to tell their stories.

"Only three women agreed to sign the letter by name, because of the fear that if a woman goes public with her story, her companion priest would break up with her," Salomone said.

As a result, the women who decided to go public were speaking about past relationships, she said.

Luisa, 38, said she had a relationship -- and a child -- with a priest who is now 35. They met six years ago when he was the priest in a nearby parish.

"He came to live with me," Luisa said. "He told his family that he was living in his parish, and his parish that he was living with his family."

The people in Luisa's village looked the other way, she said, adding that the couple considered joining the Anglican Communion, which allows its priests to marry, so that they could come out of the closet.

But in the end the priest decided to leave Luisa, even before the birth of the child, now aged 20 months. "It was very hard. His family sent him to an exorcist and accused me of being a witch.

"As for the bishop, he told me to have my child adopted," she said.

Her son is now 20 months old. His purported father saw him for only 10 minutes when he was just two months old: "And that was all," Luisa said, adding that he had refused to acknowledge his paternity.

She said she was disgusted with the attitude of the Catholic Church and decided to have her son baptised in the Anglican Communion.

Salomone's experience was no less painful.

"It started as a trusting relationship, a relationship typical of those that develop between a priest and those involved in parish activities," she said.

The priest "was unable to accept his feelings. He was very disturbed and didn't know how to react."

Salomone added: "I felt bad because he was ashamed of his feelings. For him, I became a burden, like one person too many. In the end he managed to deny his feelings and soon told me he didn't want to see me anymore."

Salomone has no patience for the Church's doctrinal arguments for celibacy.

"There is no reason in the world to justify anyone forbidding another person a fundamental right," she said.

Even some members of the Catholic hierarchy appear to agree.

At a conference in Austria last month, Bishop Alois Schwarz of the Carinthia diocese urged new discussion of the issue of celibacy and the ordination of married men.

His comments echoed similar views expressed by his colleague, the bishop of Eisenstadt, Paul Iby.

And in March, Vienna Archbishop Christoph Schoenborn even said the Church should take a fresh look at celibacy when considering the possible causes behind the sex abuse scandal.

See http://rentapriest.blogspot.com/2010/05/priests-women-speak-out.html for the English version of the letter.
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 01:53:36 PM »
Whether or not the Catholic Church would allow married men to become priests, what these women have done is scandalous.

They are sleeping with men outside of marriage, and then writing to the Church because they won't condone the relationship! Terrible!

Furthermore, the men who took the vows of celibacy knew about the celibate requirement prior to their ordination to the priesthood. For them to voluntarily take the vow and then complain about it is ludicrous!

My Spiritual Father is a Hiermonk in the Orthodox Church. He told me prior to taking his monastic vows, the Bishop passed the tonsuring scissors to him three times asking if he was "sure" of his decision. The decision was completely his and was completely voluntary. Nobody put a gun to his head.

In regards to these women, they are basically the equivalent of the "other woman" in an adulteress affair that is complaining that her boyfriend is married. Except in this case instead of the wife being a female, it is the bride of Christ, the Church. These women knew they what they were getting into when they started to sleep with these priests; I just think that complaining about it is absolutely disgusting!

The whole article is disgusting to me.

It is not the Catholic Church that is the villain here. It is the priests and their lovers who are!
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline Keble

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 02:04:22 PM »
It isn't as though Anglican priests and bishops cannot find time to go out and indulge themselves in adultery, after all.

Offline Andrew21091

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 02:06:49 PM »
I agree with you Handmaiden. They voluntarily took a vow so they should stick with it and not complain. If they couldn't handle it or don't agree with the position of the church they are in then they should have not become priests in the first place.

Offline Schultz

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 02:07:53 PM »
I agree with you Handmaiden. They voluntarily took a vow so they should stick with it and not complain. If they couldn't handle it or don't agree with the position of the church they are in then they should have not become priests in the first place.

They can also voluntarily ask to be relieved of their vows.  

From my point of view, the wrong that the Catholic Church is doing here is not being hard enough of the priests caught fathering children.  They should be defrocked and sent on their way to their new vocation: husband- and fatherhood.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 02:09:28 PM by Schultz »
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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2010, 02:28:12 PM »
I think it is the fact that the laity want a married priesthood and the Vatican's irrational inconsistency on the topic that makes it a hot topic issue. In the RC Archdiocese of NY 10% of the priests were married converts, and that figure is about 5 to 10 years old. Why should they be allowed to be married? The priests in Africa also take the same vows and still have wives but the vatican does not enforce it because they are being culturally sensitive to "african values".

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2010, 02:36:21 PM »
I think it is the fact that the laity want a married priesthood and the Vatican's irrational inconsistency on the topic that makes it a hot topic issue. In the RC Archdiocese of NY 10% of the priests were married converts, and that figure is about 5 to 10 years old. Why should they be allowed to be married? The priests in Africa also take the same vows and still have wives but the vatican does not enforce it because they are being culturally sensitive to "african values".

Some days it become crystal clear why Jesus gave us the parable of the workers in the vineyard. 

I agree that the women are essentially at fault here...as much as any adulteress is at fault.  There is NOTHING but lust that forces a woman to have sex with a married man.

Besides the woman highlighted in the article clearly got herself involved with a man who appears to have been somewhat reluctant.  It seems to me the author should have been smart enough to find an example where the priest pestered the woman and plied her with his charms to the point where she became a victim of her environment.... :-X

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2010, 03:11:21 PM »
'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/lf_afp/vaticanpopereligionabusewomen

"vaticanpopereligionabusewomen"

No bias in that URL.  Nope.  Not at all.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2010, 03:20:07 PM »
A friend of mine who did extensive work with the Jesuits here in Omaha (attached to Creighton University, a Jesuit institution) once told me of some of her conversations with them. Just casually, she asked how the priests handled celibacy.  The priest responded, "We're single, not celibate."  My friend could tell by the expression on his face that this was no attempt at a joke.

I believe that there are many who enter the Catholic priesthood (or any other priesthood) for the wrong reasons.  For some, it's because they have no other place to go, for others, maybe it's a power trip. Who knows?  But if you don't want to conform to the rules of that priestly order, then they need to be shown the door.  Like the priest abuse scandal, this is an equal scandal.   How many parishioners would leave the RC church if they found out their priest had a secret life and was having an affair and fathering kids out of wedlock?  As liberal as the American congregations may be, I believe that even this would be hard to stomach.

I'm not suggesting the Vatican changes its rules.  I'm not a Catholic and no Catholic priest is my spiritual confessor.  But what they  need to do is do a better vetting process all around to make sure that those who are entrusted with God's flock are there for the right reasons and are truly worthy of such a calling, not doing it because they feel they cannot do anything else.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 03:31:43 PM by scamandrius »
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Offline Schultz

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 03:23:40 PM »
I agree, scamandarius.

I also think that the Vatican and its followers need to do a be a little more heavy handed when it comes to those men who are found to flagrantly violate their vows, sort of a "Fool me once..." type thing. 

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 03:29:30 PM »
I think it is the fact that the laity want a married priesthood and the Vatican's irrational inconsistency on the topic that makes it a hot topic issue. In the RC Archdiocese of NY 10% of the priests were married converts, and that figure is about 5 to 10 years old. Why should they be allowed to be married? The priests in Africa also take the same vows and still have wives but the vatican does not enforce it because they are being culturally sensitive to "african values".

Some days it become crystal clear why Jesus gave us the parable of the workers in the vineyard. 

I agree that the women are essentially at fault here...as much as any adulteress is at fault.  There is NOTHING but lust that forces a woman to have sex with a married man.

Besides the woman highlighted in the article clearly got herself involved with a man who appears to have been somewhat reluctant.  It seems to me the author should have been smart enough to find an example where the priest pestered the woman and plied her with his charms to the point where she became a victim of her environment.... :-X

I am told that it is typical in such cases for women to be more critical of the "other woman" than the cheating man. In any case, I think both are equally at fault but the priest, who is married to the Lord, is certainly guilty of adultery and breaking of his priestly vows, among other things. There is of course no theological reason for a priest or bishop to be celibate, but that is for another discussion.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2010, 05:49:35 PM »
Even we Orthodox don't allow priests to marry, so I don't see how this article is such a ringing endorsement of the abolition of clerical celibacy.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2010, 06:24:04 PM »
I think it is the fact that the laity want a married priesthood and the Vatican's irrational inconsistency on the topic that makes it a hot topic issue. In the RC Archdiocese of NY 10% of the priests were married converts, and that figure is about 5 to 10 years old. Why should they be allowed to be married? The priests in Africa also take the same vows and still have wives but the vatican does not enforce it because they are being culturally sensitive to "african values".

Some days it become crystal clear why Jesus gave us the parable of the workers in the vineyard.  

I agree that the women are essentially at fault here...as much as any adulteress is at fault.  There is NOTHING but lust that forces a woman to have sex with a married man.

Besides the woman highlighted in the article clearly got herself involved with a man who appears to have been somewhat reluctant.  It seems to me the author should have been smart enough to find an example where the priest pestered the woman and plied her with his charms to the point where she became a victim of her environment.... :-X

I am told that it is typical in such cases for women to be more critical of the "other woman" than the cheating man. In any case, I think both are equally at fault but the priest, who is married to the Lord, is certainly guilty of adultery and breaking of his priestly vows, among other things. There is of course no theological reason for a priest or bishop to be celibate, but that is for another discussion.

Perhaps women who are so hard on adulterous women: 1) have had the experience of having to say "No" on moral grounds, or 2) stupidly said yes and watched families fall apart all around them.

Are there situations where the second time around works?...some...but not many and the price is hellish for a few years worth of earthy cares.

So doubt the credibility of the women who growl.  They probably know better from experience.

M.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 06:25:11 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2010, 06:29:04 PM »
It takes two to tango ,The woman can't be blamed for all what's happened ,Priest's should know better leading the woman on....This is a lesser evil than the  predatory child molesting Clergy...... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2010, 06:33:52 PM »
It takes two to tango ,The woman can't be blamed for all what's happened ,Priest's should know better leading the woman on....This is a lesser evil than the  predatory child molesting Clergy...... ;D

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  This is junk psychology and worse theology  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

figgers

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2010, 06:37:51 PM »
How are the women primarily at fault?  The priest made the choice to betray his vow of celibacy and to commit fornication, unless the woman raped him.  I would think that both are equally responsible. 

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2010, 06:54:51 PM »
How are the women primarily at fault?  The priest made the choice to betray his vow of celibacy and to commit fornication, unless the woman raped him.  I would think that both are equally responsible. 

The woman, unless raped, always has the opportunity and the obligation say "No. Thank you!"

Perhaps some of our young girls should hear that message rather than the lukewarm message that says it takes two to tango....


M.

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2010, 08:41:01 PM »
The priest is a grown man and is responsible for his actions.  We are to repent for our sins, and part of repentance is taking full responsibility for our actions and not blaming others for it.  A priest that commits fornication is responsible for that decision.  By the way, the priest also has the responsibility to say "no thank you" when a woman comes on to him.  Believe it or not, men are capable of saying "no" too.  Christ does expect us to at least make an effort to overcome temptation.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 08:44:42 PM by katherine 2001 »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2010, 10:22:36 PM »
The priest is a grown man and is responsible for his actions.  We are to repent for our sins, and part of repentance is taking full responsibility for our actions and not blaming others for it.  A priest that commits fornication is responsible for that decision.  By the way, the priest also has the responsibility to say "no thank you" when a woman comes on to him.  Believe it or not, men are capable of saying "no" too.  Christ does expect us to at least make an effort to overcome temptation.

Women need to hear more often that THEY are in control of potentially sexually charged situations outside of violent attacks against themselves and that modesty should prevent them from ever getting into one of those situations and chastity should be sufficient to get them out of it if it happens unexpectedly.

We are not stupid, dear heart.  We have simply been allowed to believe we have some sort of equal place in the world.  We do not!

We are essentially in charge of the moral life of this world and its time we picked that banner back up because it belongs to us by divine gift, and if you doubt that spend a little extra time with the Theotokos and ponder her life and death and her life in the world to come and see what you find...

Mary

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2010, 10:31:48 PM »
We'll have to agree to disagree.  I respect men enough to believe that they are capable of overcoming temptation and living a holy life--the male saints are proof of that.  I also have enough respect for men to believe that they are capable of taking responsibility for their own actions and not blaming it all on the person whom he sinned with (kind of "the devil made me do it"--only the devil can't make us do things). 

Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2010, 10:58:35 PM »
Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... ;D
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 11:00:45 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Altar Server

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2010, 11:03:21 PM »
Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David
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Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2010, 11:16:47 PM »
Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... ;D
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 11:22:42 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2010, 11:24:04 PM »
Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... ;D

Would you feel the same way if your Archimandrite Orthodox Priest (sorry, I don't know the term for Archimandrite in Church Slavonic) had an affair with a woman which produced a child?   ???

Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2010, 11:24:42 PM »
'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/lf_afp/vaticanpopereligionabusewomen

"vaticanpopereligionabusewomen"

No bias in that URL.  Nope.  Not at all.


Please explain..I don't get it.... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2010, 11:35:00 PM »
Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... ;D

Would you feel the same way if your Archimandrite Orthodox Priest (sorry, I don't know the term for Archimandrite in Church Slavonic) had an affair with a woman which produced a child?   ???

Yes it would be Fine with me ...Plus they would have to get married because of it...
In the Serbian church they allowed [economija] at times for a Deacon and even a priest to remarry that was married before...
I would love to see  also in my lifetime married Bishops and ordained women Deaconesses...Grant it oh Lord...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 11:42:29 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Schultz

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2010, 11:42:56 PM »

Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... ;D

Bull.  Fr. Dwight Longenecker is pretty famous in traditional (and even non-traditional) Roman Catholic circles and a hot commodity on the Catholic lecture circuit.

He's also a married Latin-rite priest who was formerly an Anglican clergyman.

He certainly has his own parish (and has bi-ritual faculties in the Maronite rite!) and is certainly not in the shadows.

You really don't verify much of what you say, do you, stashko?  You'll just come up with anything and tag a "I heard from someone..." statement on it to make yourself feel better about your false witness so long as it makes the Vatican look bad.

Roman Catholic priests who cannot abide by their own vows of celibacy should ask to be released from that vow and move on with their lives.  As I have said elsewhere, in a very real sense, every Roman Catholic priest is a sort of monk.  

Let me ask you this: would you suggest that the Orthodox Church let a hieromonk who fathered a child in violation of his vows to be allowed to continue as a parish priest somewhere because he "wants to remain a priest"?  I would think that the local bishop would tell him to get a job and support his new family.  

Rome should tell these priests the exact same thing in these cases.  
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Offline Schultz

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2010, 11:43:58 PM »
Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... ;D

Would you feel the same way if your Archimandrite Orthodox Priest (sorry, I don't know the term for Archimandrite in Church Slavonic) had an affair with a woman which produced a child?   ???

Yes it would be Fine with me ...Plus they would have to get married because of it...
In the Serbian church they allowed [economija] at times for a Deacon and even a priest to remarry that was married before...
I would love to see  also in my lifetime married Bishops and ordained women Deaconesses...Grant it oh Lord...

AH HA!  I knew it!  Innovationist!
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline SolEX01

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2010, 11:44:50 PM »
Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... ;D

Would you feel the same way if your Archimandrite Orthodox Priest (sorry, I don't know the term for Archimandrite in Church Slavonic) had an affair with a woman which produced a child?   ???

Yes it would be Fine with me ...

So a man, who marries the Church, is OK to be with a woman and remain married to the Church.  Last time I checked, the Orthodox Church did not allow bigamy....

In the Serbian church they allowed [economija] at times for a Deacon and even a priest to remarry that was married before...
I would love to see in also my lifetime married Bishops and ordained women Deaconesses...

There is a thread where a widowed GOA Priest had himself defrocked and laicized to marry a woman that he fell in love with while fulfilling pastoral obligations....

Offline scamandrius

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2010, 11:46:11 PM »
Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... ;D

These aren't families though.  These are unions born out of lust and the children are the result.  I believe the priests should do the honorable thing and marry the women and adopt the children as legitimate.  But there's no reason for them to continue as priests.  There is no economia in the Roman tradition.
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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2010, 11:48:25 PM »
We'll have to agree to disagree.  I respect men enough to believe that they are capable of overcoming temptation and living a holy life--the male saints are proof of that.  I also have enough respect for men to believe that they are capable of taking responsibility for their own actions and not blaming it all on the person whom he sinned with (kind of "the devil made me do it"--only the devil can't make us do things). 

Of course we men do have a proud tradition of blaming women for our sins (see Adam in the Garden of Eden;)

Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2010, 11:55:56 PM »
So a man, who marries the Church, is OK to be with a woman and remain married to the Church.  Last time I checked, the Orthodox Church did not allow bigamy....


I never as a serbian orthodox heard this that a future priest marries the church..sound Latin to me  ???..
I did hear that Christ is the bridegroom and the church is his bride though..Clergy are his shepherds.... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2010, 12:09:13 AM »
Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... ;D

These aren't families though.  These are unions born out of lust and the children are the result.  I believe the priests should do the honorable thing and marry the women and adopt the children as legitimate.  But there's no reason for them to continue as priests.  There is no economia in the Roman tradition.


None of this is a unforgivable sin,that can't be forgiven by christ..so in the mean time destroy a family label the kids as bastards,,evict a perfectly good priest,that only wanted a family,and wants to serve God ....

Really No economija could of fooled me didn't they use it for the predatory child molesting clergy for years and years...um ;D
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 12:15:25 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2010, 12:20:10 AM »
Rome should do the sane thing, and Grant these priest's with wives and children a special dispensation [economia] instead of splitting these families apart,if the priest wants to remain a priest....Rules can be changed ..Popes/priests were married in the past..Rome Has to get it's priorities right.... ;D

These aren't families though.  These are unions born out of lust and the children are the result.  I believe the priests should do the honorable thing and marry the women and adopt the children as legitimate.  But there's no reason for them to continue as priests.  There is no economia in the Roman tradition.


None of this is a unforgivable sin,that can't be forgiven by christ..so in the mean time destroy a family label the kids as bastards,,evict a perfectly good priest,that only wanted a family,and wants to serve God ....

Really No economija could of fooled me didn't they use it for the predatory child molesting clergy for years and years...um ;D
But what Tradition do we have to support such an innovative practice outside of the Tradition of your own mind?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2010, 12:45:19 AM »
So a man, who marries the Church, is OK to be with a woman and remain married to the Church.  Last time I checked, the Orthodox Church did not allow bigamy....

I never as a serbian orthodox heard this that a future priest marries the church..sound Latin to me  ???..

If a single, unmarried man is ordained to the Holy Diaconate (and later to the Holy Priesthood and even later elevated to the Holy Episcopate) and is led around the altar each time to the chant of Holy Martyrs, Glory to Thee, O Christ and Dance O Isaiah (which are the same hymns chanted at a Baptism and during the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony), that sounds Latin to you?   ???  I admit I don't know the liturgical traditions of the Serbian Orthodox Church; However, I can't imagine that the Serbian Orthodox would tolerate an unmarried Priest becoming involved with a woman and fathering a child with her.

I did hear that Christ is the bridegroom and the church is his bride though..Clergy are his shepherds.... ;D

You are correct on one thing.   ::)
Clergy serve as representatives of the Bishop (who represents Christ) who can't tend to his entire flock at once.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 12:50:46 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2010, 12:54:41 AM »
If our Saintly Fr. Ambrose should happen to chime in ,and give me any correction in anything i erred in ill abide by it,and stand corrected...till then ..... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2010, 12:59:14 AM »
When The Blessed St.Paul Mentioned the Passage In scripture,Better To Marry Than to Burn With Desire ,Im sure He Didn't Mean it just for Lay People it would apply For Clergy as well..... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2010, 01:05:50 AM »
When The Blessed St.Paul Mentioned the Passage In scripture,Better To Marry Than to Burn With Desire ,Im sure He Didn't Mean it just for Lay People it would apply For Clergy as well..... ;D

Have you forgotten how the tribe of Levi was "set aside" by God to serve as Priests in the Temple in Jerusalem?

Have you forgotten that the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony "sets aside" a man and a woman?

Finally, you forget that the Sacrament of Ordination "sets aside" a single man for the Priesthood and beyond?

What St. Paul said was in response to the fornication practiced during His time (and our time, as well).  However, St. Paul never sanctioned fornication between Clergy and Laity.  Please don't use the last sentence as a springboard on your attacks against Roman Catholicism.  Thank You.    :) :police:  :)

Perhaps as words of wisdom for all of us, the most recent post by Silver on the Counsels of the Holy Mountain Thread:

Quote
For this reason they also misunderstand the texts of the sacred Scriptures and of the holy Fathers, since humility, with a pure and enlightened conscience, is absent. “A self-advised man is his own enemy”. That is, one who listens to what his thoughts tell him ..., becomes his own foe.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 01:19:31 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2010, 01:21:06 AM »
So if a Catholic Priest is burning with desires for a female conpanionship,wouldn't it be better for him to be allowed to marry legally in the eyes of the church ,a blessed union than sneeking around ...This is where the church should allow for economija...to prevent such  from happening.... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline stanley123

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2010, 01:27:37 AM »
It takes two to tango ,The woman can't be blamed for all what's happened ,Priest's should know better leading the woman on....This is a lesser evil than the  predatory child molesting Clergy...... ;D
Perhaps it would be better to require all Catholic priests to marry. My guess is that requiring priests to have a wife  would be beneficial in many respects. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 01:44:27 AM by stanley123 »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2010, 01:28:20 AM »
So if a Catholic Priest is burning with desires for a female conpanionship,wouldn't it be better for him to be allowed to marry legally in the eyes of the church ,a blessed union than sneeking around ...This is where the church should allow for economija...to prevent such  from happening.... ;D

Do you understand the history of celibacy in the Roman Catholic Church?  Why not learn about how celibacy developed among Roman Catholic Priests?   :)  The website does say that celibacy is an issue; however, finding an unbiased source is difficult....
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 01:30:02 AM by SolEX01 »

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2010, 01:31:07 AM »
So if a Catholic Priest is burning with desires for a female conpanionship,wouldn't it be better for him to be allowed to marry legally in the eyes of the church ,a blessed union than sneeking around ...This is where the church should allow for economija...to prevent such  from happening.... ;D
I can agree with you on one condition:  that the priest be laicized first.  He knew full well when he made his ordination vows what he was committing himself to.  If he wants to no longer fulfill those vows so he can marry and father a family, then let him renounce his vows and return to life as a layman.  That's the way it currently is in our Church.  Why should it be any different for priests of the Latin church?
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2010, 01:31:47 AM »
A friend of mine who did extensive work with the Jesuits here in Omaha (attached to Creighton University, a Jesuit institution) once told me of some of her conversations with them. Just casually, she asked how the priests handled celibacy.  The priest responded, "We're single, not celibate."  My friend could tell by the expression on his face that this was no attempt at a joke.

I believe that there are many who enter the Catholic priesthood (or any other priesthood) for the wrong reasons.  For some, it's because they have no other place to go, for others, maybe it's a power trip. Who knows?  But if you don't want to conform to the rules of that priestly order, then they need to be shown the door.  Like the priest abuse scandal, this is an equal scandal.   How many parishioners would leave the RC church if they found out their priest had a secret life and was having an affair and fathering kids out of wedlock?  As liberal as the American congregations may be, I believe that even this would be hard to stomach.

I'm not suggesting the Vatican changes its rules.  I'm not a Catholic and no Catholic priest is my spiritual confessor.  But what they  need to do is do a better vetting process all around to make sure that those who are entrusted with God's flock are there for the right reasons and are truly worthy of such a calling, not doing it because they feel they cannot do anything else.

How can they do that when they are in need of more priests?
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2010, 01:36:40 AM »
Rome has allowed married converts to become priests one of the greatest catholic priests I know is married his wife teaches theology at my school and they have three kids Rome dosen't spit families apart.

In Christ,
David


Converts are another thing entirely, plus there not allowed to serve mass or have a parish church from what i understand there kept in the shadows ...I'm talking about the non convert  latin roman catholic clergy,that have wives and children ......why spilt the family apart if the priest wants to remain a priest...... ;D

I think it all depends on the region the married priest is in. For I'm not seeing the same picture that you see. On EWTN non of the ones I saw said they couldn't perform mass.
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline stashko

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Re: 'Wives' of Catholic priests speak out against celibacy
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2010, 01:51:28 AM »
They have no choice when they become priests or there given one choice  celibacy,Some literally want to raise a family and still be priest,so they can serve God as well.. Family pressure's may also have a lot to do with them being priests,though they would of preferred marrage instead...Because many of them may of had clergy in there families past family pressure wants them to continue the tradition ... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.