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Author Topic: Patriarch Bartholomew urges Ukrainian dissenters to join the Orthodox Church  (Read 1964 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: May 31, 2010, 06:05:59 PM »

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"Let them (dissenters) not hesitate, but join the canonical Orthodox Church which is a ship of salvation," Patriarch Bartholomew said in an interview.

Strelna, May 31, Interfax - Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople urged Ukrainian  dissenters to repent and join the canonical Orthodox Church.  "Let them (dissenters)  not hesitate, but join the canonical Orthodox Church which is a ship of salvation," Patriarch Bartholomew said in an interview to Vesti 24 TV which was recorded Sunday in the Constantinovsky Palace in Strelna near St. Petersburg.

He noted that speaking with Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev and all Ukraine he wished him that "he be honored by God to see the solution to this problem while alive, and that the schism ceased to exist."

"Our Church does everything with due respect to the existing canonical order (in Ukraine - IF)," Patriarch Bartholomew commented current standpoint by Constantinople Patriarchate on Ukrainian schism.

He expressed willingness of his Church to pray both for "Russian and Ukrainian people."
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 07:09:46 PM »

Post moved from Faith Issues to eliminate needless redundancy  -PtA


"Let them (dissenters) not hesitate, but join the canonical Orthodox Church which is a ship of salvation," Patriarch Bartholomew said in an interview.

Strelna, May 31, Interfax - Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople urged Ukrainian  dissenters to repent and join the canonical Orthodox Church.  "Let them (dissenters)  not hesitate, but join the canonical Orthodox Church which is a ship of salvation," Patriarch Bartholomew said in an interview to Vesti 24 TV which was recorded Sunday in the Constantinovsky Palace in Strelna near St. Petersburg.

He noted that speaking with Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev and all Ukraine he wished him that "he be honored by God to see the solution to this problem while alive, and that the schism ceased to exist."

"Our Church does everything with due respect to the existing canonical order (in Ukraine - IF)," Patriarch Bartholomew commented current standpoint by Constantinople Patriarchate on Ukrainian schism.

He expressed willingness of his Church to pray both for "Russian and Ukrainian people."
 
http://www.directionstoorthodoxy.org/n/ecumenical_patriarch_bartholomew_urges_ukrainian_dissenters_to_j.html

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« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 07:26:18 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 01:23:19 PM »

Spokesman of Kyivan Patriarchate Comments on Calls of Patriarch Bartholomew to Join Canonical Church


http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/35909/
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 01:28:29 PM »

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I would like to draw the readers’ attention to the fact that Patriarch Bartholomew does not clarify which exactly ‘canonical church’ he urges [Ukrainians] to join,

He is trying to tell that Patriarch Batholomew and everyone who read the newsreport is an idiot. I wish him good luck.
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 01:31:32 PM »

Spokesman of Kyivan Patriarchate Comments on Calls of Patriarch Bartholomew to Join Canonical Church


http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/35909/

Quote
The spokesperson of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP), Bishop Yevstratii (Zoria), commented on the statement of Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople that he hopes the schism in Ukraine would be overcome soon, which he made during his visit to Russia: “I would like to draw the readers’ attention to the fact that Patriarch Bartholomew does not clarify which exactly ‘canonical church’ he urges [Ukrainians] to join,” noted Bishop Yevstratii.  In 2008 a similar call of the patriarch created panic in the Moscow Patriarchate for at that time he clearly meant joining the Constantinople Patriarchate, which is no less canonical than the Moscow one. Moscow then did everything possible to prevent the Kyivan Patriarchate from being admitted by the Ecumenical Patriarchate,” explained the bishop.

The bishop reminded that Constantinople still considers the subordination of the Kyivan Metropolitanate to the Moscow Patriarchate in 1685-86 canonically not acceptable: “Constantinople recognizes the authority of Moscow over Ukraine de facto but it does not recognize it de jure, which is testified by certain documents and statements. Representatives of the Constantinople Patriarchate consider the annexation not canonical and therefore Ukraine to be the canonical territory of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and not the Moscow one. In the view of this, the words of Patriarch Bartholomew about ‘joining the canonical church’ do not at all sound as unambiguous as the Moscow Patriarchate would like.”
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2010, 02:43:58 PM »

Patriarch Bartholomew has concelebrated with Metropolitan Volodymyr. To my knowledge he has not concelebrated with the heads of the other two factions. To date no Orthodox leader has recognized anyone other than Metropolitan Volodymyr.
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2010, 02:56:56 PM »


Yes, but, maybe he was suggesting that P. Filaret (KP) come under the EP and not the MP?

I say....lets just wait and see what happens.

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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2010, 03:04:35 PM »


Yes, but, maybe he was suggesting that P. Filaret (KP) come under the EP and not the MP?

I say....lets just wait and see what happens.



Yes I see your point. However, it would have to wait until after any council or else there will be no council because I doubt the MP will consider continuing its working relationship with the EP.
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2010, 03:50:24 PM »

Yes, but, maybe he was suggesting that P. Filaret (KP) come under the EP and not the MP?

I say....lets just wait and see what happens.

People's speculation here notwithstanding, His All Holiness has only concelebrated with the canonical Metropolitan of the Ukranian Church of the MP.  Actions speak louder, and all that jazz.
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 04:26:03 PM »


Yes, but, maybe he was suggesting that P. Filaret (KP) come under the EP and not the MP?

I say....lets just wait and see what happens.



I think I agree with you.  Can you imagine how much the influence of the EP if the UOC in Ukraine came under his wing.  That was the tone in 2008 when he visited Ukraine.  But I believe the requirement was that Patriarch Filaret had to step down.  Here is a response fromthe UOC-KP:
Spokesman of Kyivan Patriarchate Comments on Calls of Patriarch Bartholomew to
Join Canonical Church

1 June 2010, 11:13 | Inter-Orthodox relations | 4 |
KYIV — The spokesperson of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate
(UOC-KP), Bishop Yevstratii (Zoria), commented on the statement of Patriarch
Bartholomew I of Constantinople that he hopes the schism in Ukraine would be
overcome soon, which he made during his visit to Russia: "I would like to draw
the readers' attention to the fact that Patriarch Bartholomew does not clarify
which exactly `canonical church' he urges [Ukrainians] to join," noted Bishop
Yevstratii. In 2008 a similar call of the patriarch created panic in the Moscow
Patriarchate for at that time he clearly meant joining the Constantinople
Patriarchate, which is no less canonical than the Moscow one. Moscow then did
everything possible to prevent the Kyivan Patriarchate from being admitted by
the Ecumenical Patriarchate," explained the bishop.

The UOC-KP commented on the patriarch's statement because certain news agencies
which published the statement stressed that he called the Orthodox Churches in
Ukraine that are not recognized in the world to join the Ukrainian Orthodox
Church-Moscow Patriarchate. In reality, the quotes used by journalists and the
Russian source do not allow one to make such conclusions, reported the press
service of UOC-KP.

According to Bishop Yevstratii, the confusion in the meanings is due to the fact
that in Russia and Ukraine, the expression "canonical church" is traditionally
associated only with the Moscow Patriarchate. "In general, this term is quite
doubtful from the theological point of view but we are not talking about it now.
When the `canonical church' is mentioned by Patriarch Kirill or Metropolitan
Volodymyr it is clear that they mean their own church – the Moscow Patriarchate.
But when the 'canonical church' is referred to by Patriarch Bartholomew, it is
not clear if he means the Moscow Patriarchate," he stated.

The bishop reminded that Constantinople still considers the subordination of the
Kyivan Metropolitanate to the Moscow Patriarchate in 1685-86 canonically not
acceptable: "Constantinople recognizes the authority of Moscow over Ukraine de
facto but it does not recognize it de jure, which is testified by certain
documents and statements. Representatives of the Constantinople Patriarchate
consider the annexation not canonical and therefore Ukraine to be the canonical
territory of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and not the Moscow one. In the view of
this, the words of Patriarch Bartholomew about `joining the canonical church' do
not at all sound as unambiguous as the Moscow Patriarchate would like."

"As for `overcoming of the schism,' as mentioned by Patriarch Bartholomew, there
are many ways to do so and not only the ways considered by Moscow, namely,
repentance and return of all of Ukrainian Orthodoxy under the authority of
Moscow," noted Bishop Yevstratii. He reminded that the reunion of the Russian
Orthodox Church with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia was conducted
without any formal repentance.

In closing, Bishop Yevstartii noted that the three phrases on "the Ukrainian
issue" from a TV interview with Patriarch Bartholomew are a very small result
for Moscow in view of the pomp and duration of the patriarchal visit to Russia.
"An interview is not a document, not a statement. There is no signature there.
In dealings with the Constantinople Patriarchate, even the slightest details
matter for rituals and symbols are quite significant," summed up the head of the
Information Department of the Kyivan Patriarchate.


http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/35909/


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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 04:34:43 PM »

I highly doubt the UOC-KP is interested in going under anyone's wing as their mission is to have an autocephalous local church. Also, even if they changed their mind and went under another Patriarchate there still would be a divided church and there still would be three Ukrainian jurisdictions.
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2010, 04:48:30 PM »

Yes, but, maybe he was suggesting that P. Filaret (KP) come under the EP and not the MP?

I say....lets just wait and see what happens.

People's speculation here notwithstanding, His All Holiness has only concelebrated with the canonical Metropolitan of the Ukranian Church of the MP.  Actions speak louder, and all that jazz.

Yes. With the prelate of the only "Ukrainian" jurisdiction that does not celebrate the Day of All Ukrainian Saints on the second Sunday of Pentecost (see my post on Faith Issues). Actions of that jurisdiction indeed speak about the Ukrainianness of that jurisdiction louder than words and all that jazz. Ukraine is expendable, she does not have nuclear warheads. To dogs.
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2010, 05:10:07 PM »


[/quote]

Yes. With the prelate of the only "Ukrainian" jurisdiction that does not celebrate the Day of All Ukrainian Saints on the second Sunday of Pentecost (see my post on Faith Issues). Actions of that jurisdiction indeed speak about the Ukrainianness of that jurisdiction louder than words and all that jazz. Ukraine is expendable, she does not have nuclear warheads. To dogs.
[/quote]

Please forgive me but what does "to dogs" mean? It sounds like an insult. That's why I ask.
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2010, 05:17:09 PM »



Yes. With the prelate of the only "Ukrainian" jurisdiction that does not celebrate the Day of All Ukrainian Saints on the second Sunday of Pentecost (see my post on Faith Issues). Actions of that jurisdiction indeed speak about the Ukrainianness of that jurisdiction louder than words and all that jazz. Ukraine is expendable, she does not have nuclear warheads. To dogs.
[/quote]

Please forgive me but what does "to dogs" mean? It sounds like an insult. That's why I ask.
[/quote]

Ukraine is going to the dogs, but the canonical Orthodoxy is OK with this. Because who cares. Ukraine does not matter, it's Russia's anyway.
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2010, 05:23:18 PM »

Just a friendly reminder to watch yourselves in this thread from now on.  There has been no violation yet, but this could easily get political.  Smiley

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