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Author Topic: Preference of English translations  (Read 2090 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 30, 2010, 06:38:31 PM »

Quote from: Ialmisry
I'm only familiar with the prayer book language, which is atrocious.  I find most (but not all) of the OCA translations the best.

What do you find atrocious about the ROCOR translations (and which prayer book edition are you referring to)?

I actually prefer ROCOR's translations. I find the OCA translations to be inconsistent, occasionally dumbed down, and plagued by grammatical errors (e.g. "for He is a good God who lovest mankind"). Referring to God as "thou" and the Theotokos and the saints as "you" is just stupid. I would much prefer the ROCOR translations becoming standardized. I also like what I've seen from the Antiochians.
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 08:09:54 PM »

Quote from: Ialmisry
I'm only familiar with the prayer book language, which is atrocious.  I find most (but not all) of the OCA translations the best.

What do you find atrocious about the ROCOR translations (and which prayer book edition are you referring to)?

I actually prefer ROCOR's translations. I find the OCA translations to be inconsistent, occasionally dumbed down, and plagued by grammatical errors (e.g. "for He is a good God who lovest mankind"). Referring to God as "thou" and the Theotokos and the saints as "you" is just stupid. I would much prefer the ROCOR translations becoming standardized. I also like what I've seen from the Antiochians.

Ditto.  I am rather partial to the ROCOR translations myself, with the second being the wording of the Antiochian works.  Now, if we could just get those Antiochians to include a complete service in their books . . . Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2010, 11:18:27 PM »

Everyone has their own preference but I too prefer the OCA translations.
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 12:00:33 AM »

Look, there are many things to consider about translations.  It is true, that the OCA (assuming you are not DOS) translations have the inconsistancy of "thou" and "you" which is absurd.  I believe the OCA south has "thou" throughout, and the midwest has "you" throughout.  The general OCA translation is very good minus that aspect, although is not perfect.   Each has its merits.  For example, Carpatho-Russian translation is best with "Our All-holy Immaculate, most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos..."   The Greek has its merits:  "sublime" for example in the Anaphora, but certainly many other merits of translation.  There are some errors, however.   The Antiochians are most correct translating "through the intercessions of the Theotokos" in the first (distinctive) Antiphon.  The UOCUSA most recent translation has a commonality of both, yet in modern English.   There is still the ambiguity of "you" in modern English, but those who state it is a "heresy" is ridiculous--it is ambiguity in language, not heresy.  These things do need worked out.   That is the point of the assembly, they simply need worked out. 
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 12:51:32 AM »

There is still the ambiguity of "you" in modern English, but those who state it is a "heresy" is ridiculous--it is ambiguity in language, not heresy. 

Not heresy, just insipid and banal.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 08:50:02 AM »

To me, "Thou" language is pretentious.  It all rests on the assumption that this pathetic imitation of KJV English is "higher" or "better" than the English people actually speak nowadays.

In all my prayer books I crossed out the "thou" and put "you", and changed all the stupid archaic endings too.
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 10:35:57 AM »

To me, "Thou" language is pretentious. 

To me, the idea that writing should conform to contemporary speech is extremely pretentious. It is natural for writing to exhibit artifice, owing to the deliberation and self-editing which writing affords. This is especially true of liturgy, prayer, and poetry. Writing prayers in the debased modern speech always comes off as an affectation.

Quote
It all rests on the assumption that this pathetic imitation of KJV English is "higher" or "better" than the English people actually speak nowadays.

In what way is it a "pathetic imitation"? It is not imitation, simply continuation of a tradition in the English language that we write prayers in the most beautiful language available to us.

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In all my prayer books I crossed out the "thou" and put "you", and changed all the stupid archaic endings too.

And when the "you" stands for a plural, be sure to replace it with "y'all" or "you guys".
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 11:20:19 AM »

Look, there are many things to consider about translations.  It is true, that the OCA (assuming you are not DOS) translations have the inconsistancy of "thou" and "you" which is absurd. 
You mean using "Thou" only to refer to God? The OCA picked that up in a change in the language, which came with the RSV.

Myself, I've just recently given up on the "Thou," bowing to Western Orthodox rather than my Eastern Orthodoxy (which always prefers the archaic).
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 12:50:19 PM »

I prefer the Early Modern English translations of the Antiochian Archdiocese. For one thing, with the Thees and Thous it is far more precise than Modern English -- a precision English has lost but I like about other European languages. (But it's just silly to use Thou for God and You-singular for everything else; that is artificial loftiness, making language even less accurate than regular Modern English. Thou should be used in its proper place, regardless of who it refers to.)

And I think there is something to be said about setting the language of the church apart from what you would hear at a backyard barbecue.
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 03:01:57 PM »

I prefer the Early Modern English translations of the Antiochian Archdiocese. For one thing, with the Thees and Thous it is far more precise than Modern English -- a precision English has lost but I like about other European languages. (But it's just silly to use Thou for God and You-singular for everything else; that is artificial loftiness, making language even less accurate than regular Modern English. Thou should be used in its proper place, regardless of who it refers to.)

And I think there is something to be said about setting the language of the church apart from what you would hear at a backyard barbecue.
Amen!  Smiley

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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 05:38:18 PM »

Myself, I've just recently given up on the "Thou," bowing to Western Orthodox rather than my Eastern Orthodoxy (which always prefers the archaic).

Huh? All of the WO material I've seen has been heavily KJV/ Coverdale/ Cranmer based.
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 05:51:39 PM »

Everybody has their own preference I guess. I strongly prefer the older style language being used. Honestly, I really can't stand the modern English that is used in Greek churches and some OCA churches because in my opinion, it sounds messy and awkward in some places. I just prefer the older language since to me it sounds more reverent so I stick with ROCOR and HTM texts.
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 05:51:58 PM »

Myself, I've just recently given up on the "Thou," bowing to Western Orthodox rather than my Eastern Orthodoxy (which always prefers the archaic).

Huh? All of the WO material I've seen has been heavily KJV/ Coverdale/ Cranmer based.
Sorry, should have been clearer: use of the actual contemporary standard has been a hall mark of Western Liturgics ever since the days of the Latin Mass of Pope St. Damasus and the Vulgate.  Use of the archaic and obsolete has been the hallmark of the East ever since Nicea I.

Yes, the WRO language is rather ironic on that score for the most part.  There's a number of reasons for that.  Lord willing, that will change.
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 05:52:50 PM »

Everybody has their own preference I guess. I strongly prefer the older style language being used. Honestly, I really can't stand the modern English that is used in Greek churches and some OCA churches because in my opinion, it sounds messy and awkward in some places. I just prefer the older language since to me it sounds more reverent so I stick with ROCOR and HTM texts.
It might be worth if we could compare texts here.
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 05:54:51 PM »

Everybody has their own preference I guess. I strongly prefer the older style language being used. Honestly, I really can't stand the modern English that is used in Greek churches and some OCA churches because in my opinion, it sounds messy and awkward in some places. I just prefer the older language since to me it sounds more reverent so I stick with ROCOR and HTM texts.
It might be worth if we could compare texts here.

You want examples then?
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« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2010, 05:58:32 PM »

Everybody has their own preference I guess. I strongly prefer the older style language being used. Honestly, I really can't stand the modern English that is used in Greek churches and some OCA churches because in my opinion, it sounds messy and awkward in some places. I just prefer the older language since to me it sounds more reverent so I stick with ROCOR and HTM texts.
It might be worth if we could compare texts here.

You want examples then?
Yes. I usually like the concrete.  Is there a place on the web where we can get the offiical translations of the ROCOR, OCA, HTM, GOA, etc.?
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« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 06:08:46 PM »

Myself, I've just recently given up on the "Thou," bowing to Western Orthodox rather than my Eastern Orthodoxy (which always prefers the archaic).

Huh? All of the WO material I've seen has been heavily KJV/ Coverdale/ Cranmer based.
Sorry, should have been clearer: use of the actual contemporary standard has been a hall mark of Western Liturgics ever since the days of the Latin Mass of Pope St. Damasus and the Vulgate.

And yet Latin became the uniform standard long after it had fallen out of common speech. Likewise with Elizabethan English in English liturgics. So I think your dichotomy is a little simplistic.  

Quote
Yes, the WRO language is rather ironic on that score for the most part.  There's a number of reasons for that.  

They are simply respecting the English tradition which has always given deference to the "golden age" of English letters in poetry, liturgy, etc. The modernist attempt to introduce everyday speech into these arts has only resulted in bad poetry and dumbed down liturgy, and God willing it will be reversed.
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« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2010, 06:20:25 PM »

Everybody has their own preference I guess. I strongly prefer the older style language being used. Honestly, I really can't stand the modern English that is used in Greek churches and some OCA churches because in my opinion, it sounds messy and awkward in some places. I just prefer the older language since to me it sounds more reverent so I stick with ROCOR and HTM texts.
It might be worth if we could compare texts here.

You want examples then?
Yes. I usually like the concrete.  Is there a place on the web where we can get the offiical translations of the ROCOR, OCA, HTM, GOA, etc.?

I'm not sure. I'm sure many are and I'll try to find some for you. HTM's Psalter is online which I will provide the link for. I was speaking of personal experience while being at Greek churches and OCA and not liking some of the translations I would find in a ROCOR or even my Antiochian church. I was just offering my opinion on the matter since I personally think that the older English sounds better.

HTM Psalter: http://orthodox.seasidehosting.st/

Also, for other HTM translations, check some of the music on St. Anthony's Monastery's Divine music project page which uses many HTM translations for their music (mainly in the Menaion section).

Divine Liturgy as used in the GOA:http://goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc
Jordanville prayer book (ROCOR): http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2010, 06:26:57 PM »

Just a note: The Jordanville Prayer Book available online differs significantly from the current edition.
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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2010, 11:47:00 PM »

Myself, I've just recently given up on the "Thou," bowing to Western Orthodox rather than my Eastern Orthodoxy (which always prefers the archaic).

Huh? All of the WO material I've seen has been heavily KJV/ Coverdale/ Cranmer based.
Sorry, should have been clearer: use of the actual contemporary standard has been a hall mark of Western Liturgics ever since the days of the Latin Mass of Pope St. Damasus and the Vulgate.

And yet Latin became the uniform standard long after it had fallen out of common speech.
Not quite: it was the standard schriftssprache when it never was the common speech.  In Hungary, for instance, the parliament's laws were passed in Latin until 1846, and Harvard is still giving its salutory in Latin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTX35O7LfRw&feature=related
Imposing foreign languages in such as role is a common heritage of West and East.


Quote
Likewise with Elizabethan English in English liturgics.
Only for the Irish, Welsh and Scotts.

Quote
So I think your dichotomy is a little simplistic.
Roll Eyes

Quote
Quote
Yes, the WRO language is rather ironic on that score for the most part.  There's a number of reasons for that. 

They are simply respecting the English tradition which has always given deference to the "golden age" of English letters in poetry, liturgy, etc. The modernist attempt to introduce everyday speech into these arts has only resulted in bad poetry and dumbed down liturgy, and God willing it will be reversed.
[/quote]

Why is it that people who will fight to the death for archaism have their dials set only to pedantic or pedestarian?  There are other gradiations.  Winston Churchill's speeches were not quite everyday speech. But he said "has," not "hath."
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2010, 12:44:03 AM »

Some quick comparisons:

ROCOR (?) - Jordanville Prayer Book 4th Edition Revised (2003)

Let us attend!

The Holy Things are for the holy.

One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

With fear of God and with faith draw nigh.

Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. God is the Lord, and hath appeared unto us.

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who didst come into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief. Moreover, I believe that this is truly Thy most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine Own venerable Blood. Wherefore, I pray Thee: Have mercy on me and forgive me my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, in knowledge and in ignorance. And vouchsafe me to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries unto the remission of sins and life everlasting. Amen.

Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, receive me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of the Mystery to Thine enemies, nor will I give Thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the Thief do I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom.

Let not the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be unto me for judgment or condemnation O Lord, but for the healing of soul and body.

Save, O God, Thy people and bless Thine inheritance.

We have seen the True Light, we have received the Heavenly Spirit, we have found the True Faith, we worship the indivisible Trinity: for He hath saved us.

Always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.

Amen. Let our mouth be filled with Thy praise, O Lord, that we may hymn Thy glory, for Thou hast vouchsafed us to partake of Thy holy, divine, immortal, and life-creating Mysteries. Keep us in Thy holiness, that we may meditate on Thy righteousness all the day long. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.

Aright! Having partaken of the divine, holy, most pure, immortal, heavenly, and life-creating, fearful Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks unto the Lord.



Greek Orthodox Archdiocese - http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc

Let us be attentive.

The holy Gifts for the holy people of God.

One is Holy, one is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Approach with the fear of God, faith, and love.

I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown. And make me worthy without condemnation to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal. Amen.

Receive me today, Son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not reveal Your mystery to Your adversaries. Nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas. But as the thief I confess to You: Lord, remember me in Your kingdom.

Save, O God, Your people and bless Your inheritance.

We have seen the true light; we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity, for the Trinity has saved us.

Always, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

Amen. Let our mouths be filled with Your praise, Lord, that we may sing of Your glory. You have made us worthy to partake of Your holy mysteries. Keep us in Your holiness, that all the day long we may meditate upon Your righteousness. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia.

Let us be attentive. Having partaken of the divine, holy, pure, immortal, heavenly, life giving, and awesome Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.



Antiochian Archdiocese - Various

Let us attend!

The Holy Things are for the holy.

One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

In the fear of God, with faith and with love, draw near.

Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. The Lord is God, and hath revealed Himself unto us.

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners,
of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.

Of thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of thy Mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas; but like the thief will I confess thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom.

Not unto judgment nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy Holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto the healing of soul and body.

O God, save thy people and bless thine inheritance.

We have seen the true light, we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity: for He hath saved us.

Always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.

Amen. Let our mouths be filled with Thy praise, O Lord, that we may sing of Thy glory. For Thou hast permitted us to partake of Thy holy, divine, immortal and life-giving Mysteries. Establish us in Thy sanctification, that all the day we may meditate upon Thy righteousness. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.

Let us attend! Having partaken of the divine, holy, immaculate, immortal , heavenly, life-giving and awesome Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.



OCA - http://web.archive.org/web/20061231195847/sspeterpaul.org/sjcli.html (New England diocese, if it matters)

Let us attend.

Holy Things are for the holy.

One is holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

With fear of God, with faith and love, draw near.

Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. God is the Lord that hath revealed Himself unto us.

I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. And I believe that this is thine own immaculate Body, and that this is thine own precious Blood. Wherefore, I pray thee, have mercy on me, and pardon my trespasses, voluntary and involuntary, in word, or in deed, in knowledge and in ignorance, and make me worthy without condemnation to partake of thine immaculate Mysteries unto forgiveness of sins and unto life eternal. Amen.

Of thy mystical supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant, for I will not speak of thy mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief will I confess thee, remember me, O Lord, in thy kingdom.

Not unto judgment nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto healing of soul and body.

O God, save thy people, and bless thine inheritance.

We have seen the true Light. We have received the heavenly Spirit. We have found the true Faith, worshipping the undivided Trinity, for He hath saved us.

Always, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.

Amen. Let our mouths be filled with thy praise, O Lord, that we may hymn thy glory, for thou hast made us worthy to partake of thy holy, immortal and life-creating Mysteries. Preserve us in thy holiness, that all the day long we may meditate on thy righteousness. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia.

Attend. Having partaken of the divine, holy, immaculate, immortal, heavenly, and dread Mysteriesof Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2010, 12:52:27 AM »

This is just my personal opinion, but comparing these texts with the article posted in the Christian News forum about the new translation of the Vatican II Mass, I think the Greek Archdiocese version contains some of the same "dumbing down" or excessive wordiness that the Mass suffers from. "The holy Gifts for the holy people of God" seems kind of unelegant beside "The holy things are for the holy."

Also, personally, I dislike using adjectives when there is a perfectly fitting verb available. "Be attentive" versus "attend". Or another example: "I thirst" sounds better than "I am thirsty". (I'm reaching way back to middle school...that's passive voice versus active voice, yes?)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 01:00:39 AM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2010, 10:59:36 AM »

On the other thread I posted a side-by-side comparison of the old and new translations of the Canon of the Roman Mass:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27985.msg441115.html#msg441115
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"My god is greater."


« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2010, 12:21:12 PM »

The GOA lacks a basic sense of poetry and rhythm compared to the other translations. E.g. "But as the thief I confess to You", as opposed to "but like the thief do I confess thee."
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"My god is greater."


« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2010, 12:30:26 PM »

Myself, I've just recently given up on the "Thou," bowing to Western Orthodox rather than my Eastern Orthodoxy (which always prefers the archaic).

Huh? All of the WO material I've seen has been heavily KJV/ Coverdale/ Cranmer based.
Sorry, should have been clearer: use of the actual contemporary standard has been a hall mark of Western Liturgics ever since the days of the Latin Mass of Pope St. Damasus and the Vulgate.

And yet Latin became the uniform standard long after it had fallen out of common speech.
Not quite: it was the standard schriftssprache when it never was the common speech.  In Hungary, for instance, the parliament's laws were passed in Latin until 1846, and Harvard is still giving its salutory in Latin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTX35O7LfRw&feature=related
Imposing foreign languages in such as role is a common heritage of West and East.


Quote
Likewise with Elizabethan English in English liturgics.
Only for the Irish, Welsh and Scotts.

Eh? The Church of England solely used the BCP language up until the mid 20th century, and it is still offered as an option.

Quote
Why is it that people who will fight to the death for archaism have their dials set only to pedantic or pedestarian?  There are other gradiations.  Winston Churchill's speeches were not quite everyday speech. But he said "has," not "hath."

No written language is really like everyday speech, and that's the point. Attempting to make written or liturgical language resemble everyday speech is an affectation. Something written down for the ages should use the most eloquent language possible. And I don't just mean some old verb endings and pronouns- a few "thou's" won't be enough to lift something out of banality. The problem is, some of our translators don't seem to understand basic principles of prosody. In fact, the poetic sense among Anglophones has so declined that people will describe a dull Obama speech as "poetry."
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 12:32:33 PM by Iconodule » Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
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Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2010, 12:54:46 PM »

I can't edit my original post anymore, but here's some more helpful formatting:

ROCORGreekAntiochianOCA
-----
Let us attend!
-----
Let us be attentive.
-----
Let us attend!
-----
Let us attend.
-----
The Holy Things are for the holy.
-----
The holy Gifts for the holy people of God.
-----
The Holy Things are for the holy.
-----
Holy Things are for the holy.
-----
One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
-----
One is Holy, one is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
-----
One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
-----
One is holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
-----
With fear of God and with faith draw nigh.
-----
Approach with the fear of God, faith, and love.
-----
In the fear of God, with faith and with love, draw near.
-----
With fear of God, with faith and love, draw near.
-----
Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. God is the Lord, and hath appeared unto us.
-----
(?)
-----
Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. The Lord is God, and hath revealed Himself unto us.
-----
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. God is the Lord that hath revealed Himself unto us.
-----
I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who didst come into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief. Moreover, I believe that this is truly Thy most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine Own venerable Blood. Wherefore, I pray Thee: Have mercy on me and forgive me my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, in knowledge and in ignorance. And vouchsafe me to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries unto the remission of sins and life everlasting. Amen.
-----
I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown. And make me worthy without condemnation to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal. Amen.
-----
I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.
-----
I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. And I believe that this is thine own immaculate Body, and that this is thine own precious Blood. Wherefore, I pray thee, have mercy on me, and pardon my trespasses, voluntary and involuntary, in word, or in deed, in knowledge and in ignorance, and make me worthy without condemnation to partake of thine immaculate Mysteries unto forgiveness of sins and unto life eternal. Amen.
-----
Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, receive me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of the Mystery to Thine enemies, nor will I give Thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the Thief do I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom.
-----
Receive me today, Son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not reveal Your mystery to Your adversaries. Nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas. But as the thief I confess to You: Lord, remember me in Your kingdom.
-----
Of thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of thy Mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas; but like the thief will I confess thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom.
-----
Of thy mystical supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant, for I will not speak of thy mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief will I confess thee, remember me, O Lord, in thy kingdom.
-----
Let not the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be unto me for judgment or condemnation O Lord, but for the healing of soul and body.
-----
(?)
-----
Not unto judgment nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy Holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto the healing of soul and body.
-----
Not unto judgment nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto healing of soul and body.
-----
Save, O God, Thy people and bless Thine inheritance.
-----
Save, O God, Your people and bless Your inheritance.
-----
O God, save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
-----
O God, save thy people, and bless thine inheritance.
-----
We have seen the True Light, we have received the Heavenly Spirit, we have found the True Faith, we worship the indivisible Trinity: for He hath saved us.
-----
We have seen the true light; we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity, for the Trinity has saved us.
-----
We have seen the true light, we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity: for He hath saved us.
-----
We have seen the true Light. We have received the heavenly Spirit. We have found the true Faith, worshipping the undivided Trinity, for He hath saved us.
-----
Always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.
-----
Always, now and forever and to the ages of ages.
-----
Always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.
-----
Always, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.
-----
Amen. Let our mouth be filled with Thy praise, O Lord, that we may hymn Thy glory, for Thou hast vouchsafed us to partake of Thy holy, divine, immortal, and life-creating Mysteries. Keep us in Thy holiness, that we may meditate on Thy righteousness all the day long. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.
-----
Amen. Let our mouths be filled with Your praise, Lord, that we may sing of Your glory. You have made us worthy to partake of Your holy mysteries. Keep us in Your holiness, that all the day long we may meditate upon Your righteousness. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia.
-----
Amen. Let our mouths be filled with Thy praise, O Lord, that we may sing of Thy glory. For Thou hast permitted us to partake of Thy holy, divine, immortal and life-giving Mysteries. Establish us in Thy sanctification, that all the day we may meditate upon Thy righteousness. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.
-----
Amen. Let our mouths be filled with thy praise, O Lord, that we may hymn thy glory, for thou hast made us worthy to partake of thy holy, immortal and life-creating Mysteries. Preserve us in thy holiness, that all the day long we may meditate on thy righteousness. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia.
-----
Aright! Having partaken of the divine, holy, most pure, immortal, heavenly, and life-creating, fearful Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks unto the Lord.
-----
Let us be attentive. Having partaken of the divine, holy, pure, immortal, heavenly, life giving, and awesome Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.
-----
Let us attend! Having partaken of the divine, holy, immaculate, immortal, heavenly, life-giving and awesome Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.
-----
Attend. Having partaken of the divine, holy, immaculate, immortal, heavenly, and dread Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.
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ialmisry
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Posts: 37,124



« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2010, 01:18:16 PM »

Myself, I've just recently given up on the "Thou," bowing to Western Orthodox rather than my Eastern Orthodoxy (which always prefers the archaic).

Huh? All of the WO material I've seen has been heavily KJV/ Coverdale/ Cranmer based.
Sorry, should have been clearer: use of the actual contemporary standard has been a hall mark of Western Liturgics ever since the days of the Latin Mass of Pope St. Damasus and the Vulgate.

And yet Latin became the uniform standard long after it had fallen out of common speech.
Not quite: it was the standard schriftssprache when it never was the common speech.  In Hungary, for instance, the parliament's laws were passed in Latin until 1846, and Harvard is still giving its salutory in Latin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTX35O7LfRw&feature=related
Imposing foreign languages in such as role is a common heritage of West and East.


Quote
Likewise with Elizabethan English in English liturgics.
Only for the Irish, Welsh and Scotts.

Eh? The Church of England solely used the BCP language up until the mid 20th century, and it is still offered as an option.

Not comparable to using Latin among the non-Romans.


Quote
Quote
Why is it that people who will fight to the death for archaism have their dials set only to pedantic or pedestarian?  There are other gradiations.  Winston Churchill's speeches were not quite everyday speech. But he said "has," not "hath."

No written language is really like everyday speech, and that's the point. Attempting to make written or liturgical language resemble everyday speech is an affectation.

Not nearly as much as trying to talk like times gone by.

Quote
Something written down for the ages should use the most eloquent language possible.

Archaism doesn't always translate into eloquence.  It often falls flate as obscure and incomprehensible.

Quote
And I don't just mean some old verb endings and pronouns- a few "thou's" won't be enough to lift something out of banality. The problem is, some of our translators don't seem to understand basic principles of prosody. In fact, the poetic sense among Anglophones has so declined that people will describe a dull Obama speech as "poetry."
On this we are agreed.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2010, 01:20:57 PM »

I can't edit my original post anymore, but here's some more helpful formatting:

ROCORGreekAntiochianOCA
-----
Let us attend!
-----
Let us be attentive.
-----
Let us attend!
-----
Let us attend.
-----
The Holy Things are for the holy.
-----
The holy Gifts for the holy people of God.
-----
The Holy Things are for the holy.
-----
Holy Things are for the holy.
-----
One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
-----
One is Holy, one is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
-----
One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
-----
One is holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
-----
With fear of God and with faith draw nigh.
-----
Approach with the fear of God, faith, and love.
-----
In the fear of God, with faith and with love, draw near.
-----
With fear of God, with faith and love, draw near.
-----
Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. God is the Lord, and hath appeared unto us.
-----
(?)
-----
Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. The Lord is God, and hath revealed Himself unto us.
-----
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. God is the Lord that hath revealed Himself unto us.
-----
I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who didst come into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief. Moreover, I believe that this is truly Thy most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine Own venerable Blood. Wherefore, I pray Thee: Have mercy on me and forgive me my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, in knowledge and in ignorance. And vouchsafe me to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries unto the remission of sins and life everlasting. Amen.
-----
I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown. And make me worthy without condemnation to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal. Amen.
-----
I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.
-----
I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. And I believe that this is thine own immaculate Body, and that this is thine own precious Blood. Wherefore, I pray thee, have mercy on me, and pardon my trespasses, voluntary and involuntary, in word, or in deed, in knowledge and in ignorance, and make me worthy without condemnation to partake of thine immaculate Mysteries unto forgiveness of sins and unto life eternal. Amen.
-----
Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, receive me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of the Mystery to Thine enemies, nor will I give Thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the Thief do I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom.
-----
Receive me today, Son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not reveal Your mystery to Your adversaries. Nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas. But as the thief I confess to You: Lord, remember me in Your kingdom.
-----
Of thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of thy Mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas; but like the thief will I confess thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom.
-----
Of thy mystical supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant, for I will not speak of thy mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief will I confess thee, remember me, O Lord, in thy kingdom.
-----
Let not the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be unto me for judgment or condemnation O Lord, but for the healing of soul and body.
-----
(?)
-----
Not unto judgment nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy Holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto the healing of soul and body.
-----
Not unto judgment nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto healing of soul and body.
-----
Save, O God, Thy people and bless Thine inheritance.
-----
Save, O God, Your people and bless Your inheritance.
-----
O God, save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
-----
O God, save thy people, and bless thine inheritance.
-----
We have seen the True Light, we have received the Heavenly Spirit, we have found the True Faith, we worship the indivisible Trinity: for He hath saved us.
-----
We have seen the true light; we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity, for the Trinity has saved us.
-----
We have seen the true light, we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity: for He hath saved us.
-----
We have seen the true Light. We have received the heavenly Spirit. We have found the true Faith, worshipping the undivided Trinity, for He hath saved us.
-----
Always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.
-----
Always, now and forever and to the ages of ages.
-----
Always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.
-----
Always, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.
-----
Amen. Let our mouth be filled with Thy praise, O Lord, that we may hymn Thy glory, for Thou hast vouchsafed us to partake of Thy holy, divine, immortal, and life-creating Mysteries. Keep us in Thy holiness, that we may meditate on Thy righteousness all the day long. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.
-----
Amen. Let our mouths be filled with Your praise, Lord, that we may sing of Your glory. You have made us worthy to partake of Your holy mysteries. Keep us in Your holiness, that all the day long we may meditate upon Your righteousness. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia.
-----
Amen. Let our mouths be filled with Thy praise, O Lord, that we may sing of Thy glory. For Thou hast permitted us to partake of Thy holy, divine, immortal and life-giving Mysteries. Establish us in Thy sanctification, that all the day we may meditate upon Thy righteousness. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.
-----
Amen. Let our mouths be filled with thy praise, O Lord, that we may hymn thy glory, for thou hast made us worthy to partake of thy holy, immortal and life-creating Mysteries. Preserve us in thy holiness, that all the day long we may meditate on thy righteousness. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia.
-----
Aright! Having partaken of the divine, holy, most pure, immortal, heavenly, and life-creating, fearful Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks unto the Lord.
-----
Let us be attentive. Having partaken of the divine, holy, pure, immortal, heavenly, life giving, and awesome Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.
-----
Let us attend! Having partaken of the divine, holy, immaculate, immortal, heavenly, life-giving and awesome Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.
-----
Attend. Having partaken of the divine, holy, immaculate, immortal, heavenly, and dread Mysteries of Christ, let us worthily give thanks to the Lord.
The OCA must have changed its translations: what is here doesn't match what I remember.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2010, 03:50:26 PM »

A hieromonk I met said that most English translations of Orthodox texts were by three types of translators:

Those who knew Orthodoxy, but not English
Those who knew English, but not Orthodoxy
Those who knew  neither Orthodoxy, nor English

While I prefer the standard liturgical English which we've had in the English speaking world for the  last 500 years, a lot of Orthodox liturgical materials, while they strive for the purity and accuracy of standard (some would strangely call it archaism), fall terribly short of this standard either by trying to overdo it, or  trying to "correct" it to supposedly make it "more understandable." Liturgical English is not Church Slavonic, Church Greek, Classical Armenian or Geez. It is widely intelligible even to the uneducated. But, I must say, some Antiochian translations or mistranslations drive me nuts. I'd switch to the HTM translations, but I'm afraid that, with the heartsease of life's pleasures, I am become a thrall in mind.

I think that there must be a kind of middle road that maintains the integrity, accuracy, and dignity  of standard liturgical English without inconsistency and without going overboard.
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« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2010, 04:34:49 PM »

What are some examples of mistranslations? I know there is some debate over "It is truly meet...", whether the proper term is "without stain", "without corruption", "without defilement", etc.
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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2010, 04:41:00 PM »

^Mistranslations or faulty translations abound.  In fact, for a lot of Greek theological terms,such as psyche, nous, mysterion, etc., there has been tendency of late to use these terms in the original Greek than to come up with some English or Latin derived word which really does not successfully convey the full meaning of each of these words.  I'll have to look, but I know there is a link somewhere with a whole list of faultily translated Greek words into the English liturgies.
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Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
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