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Author Topic: The Holy Spirit and Baptism  (Read 11182 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2010, 02:28:44 PM »


I was also wondering if there is such a compilation of texts done by an Orthodox author or authors that might be similar or treat the same ancient texts?

Look at Patriarch Jeremiah, Mogila, the Symbolical Books, Dyobouniotes, Mesolora, Androutsos, Kritopoulos.
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« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2010, 02:32:41 PM »


I was also wondering if there is such a compilation of texts done by an Orthodox author or authors that might be similar or treat the same ancient texts?

Look at Patriarch Jeremiah, Mogila, the Symbolical Books, Dyobouniotes, Mesolora, Androutsos, Kritopoulos.

There are times when I wish I was a church mouse...in a monastery!!...who could read!!...more than one language!! <sigh>

M.
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« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2010, 03:54:13 PM »

Do you have access to a history of this development?  This is not asked in doubt but I don't know whether or not there is an historical account that compiles what we have of original documents that would illuminate the history of the addition of chrism to the ritual of conferring the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.  I can put it together in bits and pieces with what I have but that's all it is, bits and pieces.

I don't have access to any primary documents, if that's what you mean. I learned this from Fr. Seraphim Slobodskoy's The Law of God which says The first Apostles accomplished the Mystery of Chrismation through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17; 19:2-6). Then at the end of the first century, the Mystery of Chrismation came to be performed by anointment with holy oil, after the example of the Old Testament Church, as the Apostles themselves were not always able to perform the Mystery through the laying on of hands.
...
The first chrism was sanctified by the Apostles themselves and their successors, the bishops. Only bishops may consecrate this chrism. By anointing with the chrism sanctified by the bishops, priests are able to perform the Mystery of Chrismation.


The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Confirmation is also pretty informative. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm

On no...I was not looking to have you access primary docs. at all.  That is not necessary.  I was looking for what you have here...an Orthodox generated estimation of the timing of the introduction of myron, which seems to me to be the beginning of looking at the two mysteries as something distinct from one another.   I have some historical references but they are Catholic sources and so I was asking for Orthodox sources.

Also, I am thinking now of an Antiochian site that I was looking at earlier this morning where Baptism is taught, in part, as the introduction of the Holy Spirit in the regeneration of the soul, and Chrismation as the seal of the Holy Spirit where the action of Baptism is completed and perfected...if one does not look at perfecting as being a one time act in time....but as a strengthening of the initial grace of Baptism and the giving of the Holy Spirit indwelling, not just the gifts of the Holy Spirit.  

So it is clear that although they are intimately and intrinsically connected Baptism and Chrismation are catechised distinctly now, whereas in the desert fathers, particularly I am thinking of the Philokalia now, the discussions of baptism presume the healing of soul and body and illumination all in one breath.  There is no reference that I can find thus far to laying on of hands or anointing with myron.  So the distinguishing catechesis seems to have occurred over longer time.

I honestly did not keep the url because I was looking at so many and had not intended to discuss any of them in particular.  At any rate I don't think it is a false Orthodox view though I am open to correction.

I am also still interested in discussing the initial anointing with the oil of gladness in Baptism and the references in the desert fathers to the Holy Spirit, calling Him the "oil of gladness."  That would indicate a strong mystical and real presence of the Holy Spirit in the sacramental act of Baptism, for the healing of soul and body.

There were a couple of other things from that list I posted above that I was thinking to mention,  but my mind is distracted now by a related thought on the various catechetical homilies on mystagogy...so I'll just close this out here.

There is a Catholic liturgical historian who has analyzed the primary mystagogical texts of the first...what?...five centuries, and looks not only at the typological language used, but examines the extra-Scriptural language of realism introduced by SS. Cyril and John C. and also St. Ambrose of Milan.  He also looks at Theodore of Mopsuestia's mystagogical writings as well, though I am weakest in knowing them.

I was also wondering if there is such a compilation of texts done by an Orthodox author or authors that might be similar or treat the same ancient texts?

Mary

I remember what I wanted to add to this.

One of the habits of the Fathers in the mystagogical homolies, as I have learned it, is the fact that at one moment they will refer to mysteries as the total rite as a whole and the next they will be speaking of the ritual elements, or a cluster of the ritual elements as mysteries.

For St. John Chrysostom one of the greatest most compelling mysteries of Baptism, and one that he spends time on in more than one of the Stavronikita homilies is the gleaming garment of Baptism and that expression of the sacramental reality of the new man prompts him to develop the Pauline prayer 'All you who have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ' as a central element of his catechesis on the mystagogy of the gleaming garment. 

If there was to be no real distinction between Baptism and Chrismation, why would not the Baptismal garment not be held aside until the ritual laving AND the anointing with myron were both complete?

And if there truly is a new man after having been plunged into the baptismal waters, and a soul regenerated in the image and likeness of God, is that not indicative of a great grace?  And if there is but one Baptism, for the forgiveness of sin and the healing of soul and body, does that not indicate that something of the grace of Baptism, and power of the Holy Spirit given in Baptism is already permanent within the newly regenerated soul?  So that the gleaming Baptismal garment is representative of a clear sacramental reality already in evidence in the Baptised person.

Which brings me to a question that I've been meaning to ask here.  I have been told that in Orthodoxy Baptism can only be administered once but Chrismation can be administered any number of times.   I ask this as a point of information, not comparison...eh?

M.



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« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2010, 05:23:22 PM »


Which brings me to a question that I've been meaning to ask here.  I have been told that in Orthodoxy Baptism can only be administered once but Chrismation can be administered any number of times.   I ask this as a point of information, not comparison...eh?


Technically I suppose, yes, there is no limit to the number of times a person may be chrismated but in practice, no.

Outside of Baptism, Chrismation its used:

1. to receive back into the Church someone who has left it and returned repenting

2.  for the reception of Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Armenians (Armenians is the term used in the Book of Needs,  but it includes all Oriental Orthodox Christians.)

In practice, there are no multiple applications.  I recall a young man in Australia who wandered back to his former Roman Catholic Church.  He was taken back into Orthodoxy by Confession by a Serbian monk.  Then he wandered again and the bishop decreed that he may be received back into the Church by Chrismation on his deathbed.  I don't know if that was revised later and the epitemia lightened, but I would suspect so.

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« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2010, 07:02:30 PM »

Baptism and Chrismation comprise one Service.

I think this is to such an extent that many of the Fathers did not even mention Chrismation/Confirmation aside from Baptism; that a strong distinction between the two is a Latinization; and that in a certain sense it is appropriate to consider Chrismation/Confirmation as part of the Sacred Mystery of Baptism, along with water baptism itself, annointing, exorcism, etc.
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« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2010, 07:06:01 PM »

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

Do they accept EO baptisms?

The recognition of EO rites are quite various and I think kind of a mess within the Oriental churches right now. Some recognize none of them. Some recognize only Baptism. Some recognize Baptism and Chrismation (while requiring I suppose Confession before admittance). And then some recognize all in general and just receive EO to Communion without any other form of initiation.

Which ones do and which ones don't, etc.?

That main three instances that I can think of off the top of my head are:

1. Previous to the pastoral agreement with the Byzantine Patriarchate of Alexandria, the Coptic Church did not recognize any EO rites.
2. After the pastoral agreement they now recognize Baptism but still not Chrismation.
3. The Armenians generally, if I remember correctly, accept all EO rites and accept EO to Communion with no other form of initiation.
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« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2010, 07:14:14 PM »

Does Baptism save or is it Baptism-Chrismation that saves?

A few points in response:

1. Technically we do not see Baptism and Chrismation/Confirmation in distinction to the degree that Rome has traditionally taught.
2. Baptism by water is fundamental to salvation and is part of the initial salvation process. In this sense we can say that Baptism saves while also saying that Baptism alone does not convey the fullness of initial salvation.
3. To answer what I think is substantially the question you were trying to ask, yes, Chrismation/Confirmation is fundamental to the initial salvation process.
4. It's possible that the first Communion is also fundamental to initial salvation process. I do not think the Church could see the process including Baptism by water and Baptism by the Spirit but not being fulfilled in Holy Communion. Perhaps it would be good if someone else could comment on whether or not we see the reception of Communion as part of the initial salvation process, the last part.
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« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2010, 07:16:12 PM »

or leads me to doubt the truths of what I hear from other Orthodox sources.

What is the problem with that? Do you think that we do not recognize them as capable of error?  Huh
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« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2010, 07:20:23 PM »

that would illuminate the history of the addition of chrism to the ritual of conferring the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

I'm also interested in hearing about this and wondering how the East justifies seemingly changing the original form of Confirmation.  Huh

Please note, you being Byzantine rite, this question could very well be asked of your background as well.
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« Reply #99 on: June 01, 2010, 07:24:05 PM »

Also, I am thinking now of an Antiochian site that I was looking at earlier this morning where Baptism is taught, in part, as the introduction of the Holy Spirit in the regeneration of the soul, and Chrismation as the seal of the Holy Spirit where the action of Baptism is completed and perfected...if one does not look at perfecting as being a one time act in time....but as a strengthening of the initial grace of Baptism and the giving of the Holy Spirit indwelling, not just the gifts of the Holy Spirit.  

That sounds essentially like what we're trying to say here.
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« Reply #100 on: June 01, 2010, 07:31:26 PM »


It would be very helpful to me if you did not simply push-back against some external teachings and please deal with some of the internal inconsistencies in the presentation here that keep me from being entirely comfortable with all that you have said, or leads me to doubt the truths of what I hear from other Orthodox sources.


I think the Orthodox are comfortable with varying explanation of these things.  The underling teaching is common to us all. But we are happy to accommodate several theories as to how things operate.  These remain theories.  They remain fluid.  We can hold them in balance and not feel the need to choose one and throw the others away.

To hearken back to the manner of the change in the Bread and Wine...

That it changes noboby doubts...

But the way of it....?   We are fine with any number of theories about the way - impanation, consubsubstantion, transubstantiation.... all of them can be found in the Holy Fathers through the centuries.  It's not a problem.

I suppose what I am saying is that you may be striving to find a rigidity in Orthodoxy which is not there on this particular matter.
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« Reply #101 on: June 01, 2010, 07:39:51 PM »

If there was to be no real distinction between Baptism and Chrismation, why would not the Baptismal garment not be held aside until the ritual laving AND the anointing with myron were both complete?

There is a real distinction between water baptism and chrismation. And they do aim to accomplish slightly different things. All of the different elements of the baptismal rite do. However, the point is that we do not think that the fullness of redemption that is fundamental to being a Christian and being part of the Church is accomplished until at least the end of Chrismation if not after the end of the first Communion (as I speculated). The water Baptism accomplishes, through the Holy Spirit working upon the catechumen, the remission and washing away of the blemishes of his/her sins. However, without Chrismation/Confirmation the catechumen is none the less left without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Another important thing to point out is that, having been Baptized and Chrismated in the EOC but 2 years ago, I'm pretty sure that I remember putting on the white garment even before the water baptism, not between the water baptism and the chrismation. If this is the general practice, your question would  obviously have to be revised.

And if there is but one Baptism, for the forgiveness of sin and the healing of soul and body, does that not indicate that something of the grace of Baptism, and power of the Holy Spirit given in Baptism is already

Again, Baptism isn't really complete until after Chrismation/Confirmation.

permanent within the newly regenerated soul?

We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church). Perhaps, theoretically, the change that is done to the bread and the wine in Communion could be understood as irreversible, however the Church would never just keep the consecrated elements sitting around forever without the intention of administering them as Communion.

I have been told that in Orthodoxy Baptism can only be administered once but Chrismation can be administered any number of times.

Considering this matter could potentially become dangerous if one makes the strong distinction between the two that you are making here. Essentially the fullness of salvation that is accomplished through Baptism overall can be lost, however through economy the Church has sometimes deemed it appropriate to restore that salvation only through one of its elements (Chrismation) rather than performing the entire rite again.
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« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2010, 07:44:45 PM »

2.  for the reception of Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Armenians (Armenians is the term used in the Book of Needs,  but it includes all Oriental Orthodox Christians.)

I think the actual practice on the reception of OO into the EOC today is quite various. I have heard of OO being received by Chrismation, by Confession, just by a confession of faith, and sometimes just by an agreement to not return to the OOC.

In practice, there are no multiple applications.  I recall a young man in Australia who wandered back to his former Roman Catholic Church.  He was taken back into Orthodoxy by Confession by a Serbian monk.

I find reception of heterodox by anything "less" than Chrismation to be problematic, as it is my understanding that Chrismation is usually understood to be the means of conveying the fullness of the faith. Unless Communion itself is sometimes understood as conveying the fullness of the faith such that it could also accomplish that aim?
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« Reply #103 on: June 01, 2010, 07:45:28 PM »


Do you have access to a history of this development?  This is not asked in doubt but I don't know whether or not there is an historical account that compiles what we have of original documents that would illuminate the history of the addition of chrism to the ritual of conferring the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.  I can put it together in bits and pieces with what I have but that's all it is, bits and pieces.

Some Orthodox theologians will point to 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22 and 1 John 2:20 and 27 but these are flimsy grounds.  That Orthodox writers feel this difficulty is apparent in the words of Patriarch Jeremiah, "The Mystery of Holy Myrrh is not brought out in the Holy Scriptures but is handed down by the disciples of the Word."

One Orthodox thought is that the Mystery can be traced back to Holy Thursday night and the foot washing and before the institution of the Last Supper...  This is the reason underlying the tradition of consecrating the Myrrh on Holy Thursday.   But this is also seen as an unlikely view and it won't really carry any weight.
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« Reply #104 on: June 01, 2010, 07:52:48 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.

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« Reply #105 on: June 01, 2010, 07:58:01 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.
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« Reply #106 on: June 01, 2010, 08:00:42 PM »


Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders.


You would find this article interesting...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20180.msg300372.html#msg300372

Do you know how the Churches of the Orient would approach it?
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« Reply #107 on: June 01, 2010, 08:01:42 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.

Not even then.  But this could be a peripheral Serbian view?

But we bump up against the Cyprianic horror of re-baptizing those who left the Church for heresy or schism and then wish to return.
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« Reply #108 on: June 01, 2010, 08:03:38 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.

Not even then.  But this could be a peripheral Serbian view?

Perhaps. The basic explanation I got when I was studying EOy was that a heretic or apostate loses the fullness of the faith, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and sanctifying grace and that is why Chrismation is to be performed on the re-entrance into the Church.

Should I look around for you for some sources that I might have gotten this teaching from?
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« Reply #109 on: June 01, 2010, 08:09:07 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.

Not even then.  But this could be a peripheral Serbian view?

Perhaps. The basic explanation I got when I was studying EOy was that a heretic or apostate loses the fullness of the faith, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and sanctifying grace and that is why Chrismation is to be performed on the re-entrance into the Church.

Should I look around for you for some sources that I might have gotten this teaching from?

No thanks.  You are quite correct about re-chrismation but you are very wrong about the loss of Baptism.  We re-chrismate those returning from heresy or schism but we never re-baptize them.  You will see in my message above that I am speaking of Baptism and not Chrismation.  Sorry if there was any confusion.
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« Reply #110 on: June 01, 2010, 08:09:15 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.

Not even then.  But this could be a peripheral Serbian view?

My understanding of grace is that without grace we would not be able to exist at all in any form.

Which is why I asked and keep asking in a variety of ways about the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and the action of the Holy Spirit in the sealing of myron.

My own personal understanding is that we are animated by grace at a very fundamental level from the moment of our conception through everlasting life.  God is with us, so to speak.

In Baptism the Holy Spirit effects an inner penetration of the soul which regenerates it, and it is this inner penetration and regeneration that I understand to be the grace of Baptism.

In Chrismation the Holy Spirit seals and rests in the soul.

But at no time, from the moment of attaining personhood through life everlasting, are we without the grace of God in some fashion.

Mary

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« Reply #111 on: June 01, 2010, 08:09:35 PM »


Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders.


You would find this article interesting...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20180.msg300372.html#msg300372

Do you know how the Churches of the Orient would approach it?

My guess is that they would take the same approach as the more substantial tradition of laicization as found in the EOC I believe can be found in Eastern documents of the 4th and 5th centuries. But I couldn't say for sure as I am not familiar enough with the Oriental churches yet.

One significant thing I could point out is that I have heard (perhaps from a dubious source) is that the Armenian church officially recognizes the Priesthood of those from the Roman church. I don't know if this is really true, but if it is, I think it would be of relevance. However, it's important to point out that in other situations the various Oriental churches sometimes take drastically different approaches to the rites of other churches (for instance as I talked about with the reception of converts from the Byzantine tradition). In their minute theological and liturgical approaches, the Oriental churches prove to be quite diverse in comparison to each other.
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« Reply #112 on: June 01, 2010, 08:11:04 PM »

Quote
Another important thing to point out is that, having been Baptized and Chrismated in the EOC but 2 years ago, I'm pretty sure that I remember putting on the white garment even before the water baptism, not between the water baptism and the chrismation.


This would be because you were baptised as an adult. Babies are baptised naked, and, after the triple immersion, are then dressed in a new white garment. While in ancient times, baptism, irrespective of age, was indeed conducted in the alltogether (hence the need for deaconesses), it would be practically unheard-of these days for an adult to be baptised naked. The closest I've seen is women in swimsuits covered by a simple white tunic, and men in shorts or, in one case, white BVDs.

The white garment is symbolic, but the true "putting on of Christ" goes much deeper than that.
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« Reply #113 on: June 01, 2010, 08:14:58 PM »


Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders.


You would find this article interesting...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20180.msg300372.html#msg300372

Do you know how the Churches of the Orient would approach it?

My guess is that they would take the same approach as the more substantial tradition of laicization as found in the EOC I believe can be found in Eastern documents of the 4th and 5th centuries. But I couldn't say for sure as I am not familiar enough with the Oriental churches yet.

One significant thing I could point out is that I have heard (perhaps from a dubious source) is that the Armenian church officially recognizes the Priesthood of those from the Roman church. I don't know if this is really true, but if it is, I think it would be of relevance. However, it's important to point out that in other situations the various Oriental churches sometimes take drastically different approaches to the rites of other churches (for instance as I talked about with the reception of converts from the Byzantine tradition). In their minute theological and liturgical approaches, the Oriental churches prove to be quite diverse in comparison to each other.

In the spirit of more food for thought, in the second volume of his The Truth of Our Faith. On the Christian Mysteries, Elder Cleopa teaches an eternal priesthood.

M.
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« Reply #114 on: June 01, 2010, 08:22:03 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.

Not even then.  But this could be a peripheral Serbian view?

Perhaps. The basic explanation I got when I was studying EOy was that a heretic or apostate loses the fullness of the faith, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and sanctifying grace and that is why Chrismation is to be performed on the re-entrance into the Church.

Should I look around for you for some sources that I might have gotten this teaching from?

No thanks.  You are quite correct about re-chrismation but you are very wrong about the loss of Baptism.  We re-chrismate those returning from heresy or schism but we never re-baptize them.  You will see in my message above that I am speaking of Baptism and not Chrismation.  Sorry if there was any confusion.


My point was that with Chrismation as an essential part of the Sacred Mystery of Baptism, the integral effect of Baptism (fullness of faith, indwelling, grace) is lost by heresy or apostasy but it is restored merely by the repetition of Chrismation.

Are we at an understanding about that?

I was not suggesting that water baptism was performed again. I was only saying that chrismation was. However, I said that with Baptism as an integral Mystery (including annointing, baptism, exorcism, chrismation, etc.) the overall sanctifying effect is lost, but it is restored only by the repetition of only one of its elements.
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« Reply #115 on: June 01, 2010, 08:26:47 PM »


In the spirit of more food for thought, in the second volume of his The Truth of Our Faith. On the Christian Mysteries, Elder Cleopa teaches an eternal priesthood.


It may well be so, but not for a priest who has been cast out by a bishop, using his apostolic powers to bind and loose in heaven and on earth.
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« Reply #116 on: June 01, 2010, 08:29:34 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.

Not even then.  But this could be a peripheral Serbian view?

Perhaps. The basic explanation I got when I was studying EOy was that a heretic or apostate loses the fullness of the faith, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and sanctifying grace and that is why Chrismation is to be performed on the re-entrance into the Church.

Should I look around for you for some sources that I might have gotten this teaching from?

No thanks.  You are quite correct about re-chrismation.  We re-chrismate those returning from heresy or schism but we never re-baptize them.  You will see in my message above that I am speaking of Baptism and not Chrismation.  Sorry if there was any confusion.


My point was that with Chrismation as an essential part of the Sacred Mystery of Baptism, the integral effect of Baptism (fullness of faith, indwelling, grace) is lost by heresy or apostasy but it is restored merely by the repetition of Chrismation.

Are we at an understanding about that?

Only if you remove Baptism from your statement above, saying that it may be dissolved.
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« Reply #117 on: June 01, 2010, 08:30:50 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.

Not even then.  But this could be a peripheral Serbian view?

My understanding of grace is that without grace we would not be able to exist at all in any form.

Which is why I asked and keep asking in a variety of ways about the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and the action of the Holy Spirit in the sealing of myron.

My own personal understanding is that we are animated by grace at a very fundamental level from the moment of our conception through everlasting life.  God is with us, so to speak.

In Baptism the Holy Spirit effects an inner penetration of the soul which regenerates it, and it is this inner penetration and regeneration that I understand to be the grace of Baptism.

In Chrismation the Holy Spirit seals and rests in the soul.

But at no time, from the moment of attaining personhood through life everlasting, are we without the grace of God in some fashion.

Mary



I agree that grace in some form is in all of us and is involved in the goings-on of our lives.

However, I assumed that it was just understood that we were talking about sanctifying grace.
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« Reply #118 on: June 01, 2010, 08:32:36 PM »


In the spirit of more food for thought, in the second volume of his The Truth of Our Faith. On the Christian Mysteries, Elder Cleopa teaches an eternal priesthood.


It may well be so, but not for a priest who has been cast out by a bishop, using his apostolic powers to bind and loose in heaven and on earth.

He apparently does not make any distinctions.  A priest is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.  So it seems to be another one of those times when there are a variety of ways to express the truths of the faith, as you noted above.

M.
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« Reply #119 on: June 01, 2010, 08:37:37 PM »


We don't really believe that any of the Sacred Mysteries are necessarily permanent (I thought this over the other day). Matrimony can be dissolved by the severing of the substantial relationship. Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders. Baptism/Chrismation/Confirmation can likewise be dissolved (in the sense that sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is lost and must be restored if re-entering the Church).


Chris,

I would have to disagree about the loss of baptismal grace.   The tradition which I have received is that baptismal grace and the indwelling of the Spirit continues even in the midst of the most grave and persistent sins.    Hampered and barely twitching but never entirely removed from the soul.  The Holy Spirit only leaves such a baptized soul at the time of death.



I was talking about in the case of heresy or apostasy.

Not even then.  But this could be a peripheral Serbian view?

Perhaps. The basic explanation I got when I was studying EOy was that a heretic or apostate loses the fullness of the faith, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and sanctifying grace and that is why Chrismation is to be performed on the re-entrance into the Church.

Should I look around for you for some sources that I might have gotten this teaching from?

No thanks.  You are quite correct about re-chrismation.  We re-chrismate those returning from heresy or schism but we never re-baptize them.  You will see in my message above that I am speaking of Baptism and not Chrismation.  Sorry if there was any confusion.


My point was that with Chrismation as an essential part of the Sacred Mystery of Baptism, the integral effect of Baptism (fullness of faith, indwelling, grace) is lost by heresy or apostasy but it is restored merely by the repetition of Chrismation.

Are we at an understanding about that?

Only if you remove Baptism from your statement above, saying that it may be dissolved.

It seems nonsensical and contradictory for you to, on the one hand convey that Baptism and Chrismation are the same service with the same overall effect, but on the other hand that Chrismation can be dissolved without Baptism also being dissolved.  Huh

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« Reply #120 on: June 01, 2010, 08:39:48 PM »


Holy Orders can be dissolved by heresy or apostasy or through the intentional laicization of a cleric who has in some other way abused their orders.


You would find this article interesting...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20180.msg300372.html#msg300372

Do you know how the Churches of the Orient would approach it?

My guess is that they would take the same approach as the more substantial tradition of laicization as found in the EOC I believe can be found in Eastern documents of the 4th and 5th centuries. But I couldn't say for sure as I am not familiar enough with the Oriental churches yet.

One significant thing I could point out is that I have heard (perhaps from a dubious source) is that the Armenian church officially recognizes the Priesthood of those from the Roman church. I don't know if this is really true, but if it is, I think it would be of relevance. However, it's important to point out that in other situations the various Oriental churches sometimes take drastically different approaches to the rites of other churches (for instance as I talked about with the reception of converts from the Byzantine tradition). In their minute theological and liturgical approaches, the Oriental churches prove to be quite diverse in comparison to each other.

In the spirit of more food for thought, in the second volume of his The Truth of Our Faith. On the Christian Mysteries, Elder Cleopa teaches an eternal priesthood.

M.

The Sacred Mysteries can at once be potentially dissolvable or potentially eternal if not dissolved. I have even heard a number of EO sources claim that Matrimony is eternal.
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« Reply #121 on: June 01, 2010, 08:42:12 PM »


My understanding of grace is that without grace we would not be able to exist at all in any form.

Which is why I asked and keep asking in a variety of ways about the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and the action of the Holy Spirit in the sealing of myron.

My own personal understanding is that we are animated by grace at a very fundamental level from the moment of our conception through everlasting life.  God is with us, so to speak.

In Baptism the Holy Spirit effects an inner penetration of the soul which regenerates it, and it is this inner penetration and regeneration that I understand to be the grace of Baptism.

In Chrismation the Holy Spirit seals and rests in the soul.

But at no time, from the moment of attaining personhood through life everlasting, are we without the grace of God in some fashion.

Mary



I agree that grace in some form is in all of us and is involved in the goings-on of our lives.

However, I assumed that it was just understood that we were talking about sanctifying grace.

Oh....I didn't mean to shift grounds on you.  I was just, out loud, filling things out in its larger symmetry.  I tend not to think of the elements that I have listed above in separation.  It is all of a piece.  

None of this is really important to me at all except in terms of its enhancement of one's spiritual life and interior contemplation.  

Its good to share faith where we can but I am not an apologist actually.  I lead an active spiritual life and that is what drives most of my thinking.  If God is willing to direct me toward an agreeable bishop, I will take religious vows as a penitential hermit.

M.
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« Reply #122 on: June 01, 2010, 08:43:23 PM »

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A priest is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek

Not quite. The only priest who is "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek", and a great high priest at that, is Christ. EM, your Latin slip is showing.  Smiley

Orthodox priests and bishops who have been canonically defrocked remain as laymen, despite what they may wish to do later, such as set up schismatic or vagante groups.
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« Reply #123 on: June 01, 2010, 08:45:33 PM »

Quote
A priest is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek

Not quite. The only priest who is "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek", and a great high priest at that, is Christ. EM, your Latin slip is showing.  Smiley

Orthodox priests and bishops who have been canonically defrocked remain as laymen, despite what they may wish to do later, such as set up schismatic or vagante groups.

I was just repeating what Elder Cleopa was saying in his little catechism.  Don't shoot the messenger  Smiley
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« Reply #124 on: June 01, 2010, 08:48:29 PM »

Quote
A priest is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek

Not quite. The only priest who is "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek", and a great high priest at that, is Christ. EM, your Latin slip is showing.  Smiley

Orthodox priests and bishops who have been canonically defrocked remain as laymen, despite what they may wish to do later, such as set up schismatic or vagante groups.

Oh! you remind me...this is totally off topic

But if a hieromonk is defrocked is he busted to secular private or may he remain a monk

M.
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« Reply #125 on: June 01, 2010, 08:51:14 PM »

Quote
A priest is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek

Not quite. The only priest who is "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek", and a great high priest at that, is Christ. EM, your Latin slip is showing.  Smiley

Orthodox priests and bishops who have been canonically defrocked remain as laymen, despite what they may wish to do later, such as set up schismatic or vagante groups.

I was just repeating what Elder Cleopa was saying in his little catechism.  Don't shoot the messenger  Smiley

Read message 115 above.

Something is niggling at the back of my brain.... did Fr Cleopa say (or not say) that those priests who had gone into schism over the Old Calendar lacked the grace to perform the Mysteries?  I may be wrong?  Anything in your book?
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« Reply #126 on: June 01, 2010, 08:56:41 PM »

Quote
A priest is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek

Not quite. The only priest who is "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek", and a great high priest at that, is Christ. EM, your Latin slip is showing.  Smiley

Orthodox priests and bishops who have been canonically defrocked remain as laymen, despite what they may wish to do later, such as set up schismatic or vagante groups.

I was just repeating what Elder Cleopa was saying in his little catechism.  Don't shoot the messenger  Smiley

Read message 115 above.

Something is niggling at the back of my brain.... did Fr Cleopa say (or not say) that those priests who had gone into schism over the Old Calendar lacked the grace to perform the Mysteries?  I may be wrong?  Anything in your book?

I will have to get the book out and look...in next day or so.
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« Reply #127 on: June 01, 2010, 09:02:20 PM »

Quote
A priest is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek

Not quite. The only priest who is "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek", and a great high priest at that, is Christ. EM, your Latin slip is showing.  Smiley

Orthodox priests and bishops who have been canonically defrocked remain as laymen, despite what they may wish to do later, such as set up schismatic or vagante groups.

Oh! you remind me...this is totally off topic

But if a hieromonk is defrocked is he busted to secular private or may he remain a monk

M.

He remains a monk.
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« Reply #128 on: June 01, 2010, 09:11:11 PM »

Quote
A priest is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek

Not quite. The only priest who is "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek", and a great high priest at that, is Christ. EM, your Latin slip is showing.  Smiley

Orthodox priests and bishops who have been canonically defrocked remain as laymen, despite what they may wish to do later, such as set up schismatic or vagante groups.

Oh! you remind me...this is totally off topic

But if a hieromonk is defrocked is he busted to secular private or may he remain a monk

M.

He remains a monk.

Makes sense.  I thought as much but wanted to be certain.

Thank you!  Twice today  Smiley

M.
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