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« on: May 31, 2010, 01:01:28 AM »

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 06:37:47 AM »

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?

Dear Chris,

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

There is a logic to this teaching of theirs but I rejoice that God is not constrained by human logic.

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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 08:13:12 AM »

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

I am just curious, why you ask?

M.
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 08:30:32 AM »

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?

Dear Chris,

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

There is a logic to this teaching of theirs but I rejoice that God is not constrained by human logic.



Father, could you offer a link or book quotation where Pope Shenouda or Mar Bishoy have said this?
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 08:44:15 AM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'


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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 08:50:39 AM »

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

Do they accept EO baptisms?
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 08:59:55 AM »

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?

Dear Chris,

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

There is a logic to this teaching of theirs but I rejoice that God is not constrained by human logic.



Father, could you offer a link or book quotation where Pope Shenouda or Mar Bishoy have said this?

Re Mar Bishoy:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Bishoy_%28Nicola%29_of_Damietta#A_.22controversial.22_figure

Despite His Eminence's very active and commendable involvement in fruitful ecumenical dialogues with other Churches (leading the representation of the Coptic Orthodox Church in these dialogues), he is frequently criticized by many because of his rather strong words against non-Orthodox Churches (and the salvation of their faithful),(Arabic audio excerpt) and also against those whom he labels as heretics or heterodox over dogmatic matters he disagrees with.[3]

In March 2007, the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches in Egypt officially and publicly protested in the newsmedia against Metropolitan Bishoy's teachings that Catholics and Protestants will not be saved. The issue was widely covered in the mainstream secular newsmedia in Egypt, e.g., this Egyptian newspaper article and this second one from the same newspaper (both articles are in Arabic).
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 09:16:54 AM »

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

Do they accept EO baptisms?

Yes.  However we have had problems with EO to OO weddings since in this country the Coptic Church will not marry a Greek Orthodox man to a Coptic woman.  The man was expected to convert to OO.   In this instance they decided to come to an EO church for their wedding.
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 09:34:22 AM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'




Are you saying that in Orthodoxy the Holy Spirit has no part in Baptism?

In other words are you saying that Baptism has no effect in terms of the healing of soul and body until the Chrismation is completed?

Baptism alone does not save?

And if it saves, how does it save without the power of the Holy Spirit?

And are you saying then that the teaching of Baptism by Water and Spirit is, in reality, Baptism-Chrismation by Water and the Spirit?

M.
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 09:46:48 AM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'




Are you saying that in Orthodoxy the Holy Spirit has no part in Baptism?

In other words are you saying that Baptism has no effect in terms of the healing of soul and body until the Chrismation is completed?

Baptism alone does not save?

And if it saves, how does it save without the power of the Holy Spirit?

And are you saying then that the teaching of Baptism by Water and Spirit is, in reality, Baptism-Chrismation by Water and the Spirit?

I know I'm dense, being an Hibernian and all, but how do these questions come out of what Saint Cyril taught?
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 09:54:08 AM »

Let me try again then.

What role does the Holy Spirit play in Orthodox Baptism, if any?

M.

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'



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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 09:55:13 AM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'




Are you saying that in Orthodoxy the Holy Spirit has no part in Baptism?


Let us take a moment to consider what took place with the Saviour when he was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Immediately after His baptism the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

This is the way it occurs in the holy Church still. 

First our death and resurrection with Christ and our incorporation into  Him, then the coming of the Spirit into every last particle, nook and cranny, of the freshly cleansed chambers of our soul and body.
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 10:00:11 AM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'




Are you saying that in Orthodoxy the Holy Spirit has no part in Baptism?


Let us take a moment to consider what took place with the Saviour when he was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Immediately after His baptism the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

This is the way it occurs in the holy Church still. 

First our death and resurrection with Christ and our incorporation into  Him, then the coming of the Spirit into every last particle, nook and cranny, of the freshly cleansed chambers of our soul and body.

So there is no Baptism by Water and the Spirit in Orthodoxy.

There is a Baptism-Chrismation by Water and the Holy Spirit.

If there is only the possibility of a Baptism for some reason of emergency or other circumstance is the individual saved?....saved by economy?....or must one wait the the Chrismation occurs in order for the saving grace of Baptism by water and the spirit to "take" so to speak?

In other words is there no efficacious Baptism in Orthodoxy without Chrismation?

M.
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 10:02:17 AM »

Let me try again then.

What role does the Holy Spirit play in Orthodox Baptism, if any?


This question proceeds from a Roman Catholic and Protestant mindset which has for too long had a non-church understanding of "Confirmation."

For the Church the act of Baptism and Chrismation are virtually inseparable.

Death and resurrection in Christ followed at once by the anointing of the Spirit, just as at the River Jordan.

If an emergency lay baptism needs to occur, it must be COMPLETED as soon as possible with Chrismation.   Without the Chrismation it is INCOMPLETE.
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 10:04:45 AM »

Let me try again then.

What role does the Holy Spirit play in Orthodox Baptism, if any?


This question proceeds from a Roman Catholic and Protestant mindset which has for too long had a non-church understanding of "Confirmation."

For the Church the act of Baptism and Chrismation are virtually inseparable.

Death and resurrection in Christ followed at once by the anointing of the Spirit, just as at the River Jordan.

If an emergency lay baptism needs to occur, it must be COMPLETED as soon as possible with Chrismation.   Without the Chrismation it is INCOMPLETE.

So in Orthodoxy a Baptised person is not truly saved until they are Chrismated.

Why then bother with the anointing with the oil of gladness for the healing of soul and body?  Is that not a vestigial ritual then?
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« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2010, 10:05:45 AM »

And so also could you answer Chris' question?

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?
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« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 10:10:49 AM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'




Are you saying that in Orthodoxy the Holy Spirit has no part in Baptism?


Let us take a moment to consider what took place with the Saviour when he was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Immediately after His baptism the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

This is the way it occurs in the holy Church still. 

First our death and resurrection with Christ and our incorporation into  Him, then the coming of the Spirit into every last particle, nook and cranny, of the freshly cleansed chambers of our soul and body.

So there is no Baptism by Water and the Spirit in Orthodoxy.

There is a Baptism-Chrismation by Water and the Holy Spirit.

If there is only the possibility of a Baptism for some reason of emergency or other circumstance is the individual saved?....saved by economy?....or must one wait the the Chrismation occurs in order for the saving grace of Baptism by water and the spirit to "take" so to speak?

In other words is there no efficacious Baptism in Orthodoxy without Chrismation?

M.

Let's play your game!

Do baptized Catholic children go to hell?

Without eating the body and blood of Christ they can "have no life in them" and they are not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven.  But you hold off the Eucharist, refuse to complete their baptism, and deny them what the Gospel says is the indispensable salvific grace of the Eucharist until they reach 7 or 8 years of age.
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« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2010, 10:12:29 AM »

elijahmaria, you'll find the answer in the Orthodox baptism service. Related answers can also be found in the Orthodox Vigil for Theophany.
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2010, 10:15:33 AM »

And so also could you answer Chris' question?



I am disinclined to try.  He has rejected Eastern Orthodoxy which strongly implies that he has found answers from Orthodox priests of the East quite unsatisfactory, certainly not satisfactory nor convincing enough to keep him in the E Orthodox Church.  It would be more compelling for him if an Oriental priest were to answer his question.

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?
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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2010, 10:19:09 AM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'




Are you saying that in Orthodoxy the Holy Spirit has no part in Baptism?


Let us take a moment to consider what took place with the Saviour when he was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Immediately after His baptism the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

This is the way it occurs in the holy Church still. 

First our death and resurrection with Christ and our incorporation into  Him, then the coming of the Spirit into every last particle, nook and cranny, of the freshly cleansed chambers of our soul and body.

So there is no Baptism by Water and the Spirit in Orthodoxy.

There is a Baptism-Chrismation by Water and the Holy Spirit.

If there is only the possibility of a Baptism for some reason of emergency or other circumstance is the individual saved?....saved by economy?....or must one wait the the Chrismation occurs in order for the saving grace of Baptism by water and the spirit to "take" so to speak?

In other words is there no efficacious Baptism in Orthodoxy without Chrismation?

M.

Let's play your game!

Do baptized Catholic children go to hell?

Without eating the body and blood of Christ they can "have no life in them" and they are not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven.  But you hold off the Eucharist, refuse to complete their baptism, and deny them what the Gospel says is the indispensable salvific grace of the Eucharist until they reach 7 or 8 years of age.

It is unfortunate you chose this tack. 

I am not playing a game.

I am asking about the role of the Holy Spirit in Orthodox Baptism.  Can you tell me if there is any role for the Holy Spirit in Orthodox Baptism and if so, what is it?

M.
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« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2010, 10:27:01 AM »

elijahmaria, you'll find the answer in the Orthodox baptism service. Related answers can also be found in the Orthodox Vigil for Theophany.

One of the things I find in the Orthodox baptism service, in fact, that prompted my question is an anointing with the Oil of Gladness for the healing of soul and body.

Now I do not confuse the anointing with the oil of gladness with the Chrismation. 

What I do is wonder how one can be healed in soul and body without the action of the Holy Spirit?

Father has said that healing does not take place until the baptizand is Chrismated.

So I again ask what is the role, if any, of the Holy Spirit in Baptism?

M.
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« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2010, 10:29:00 AM »


I am asking about the role of the Holy Spirit in Orthodox Baptism.  Can you tell me if there is any role for the Holy Spirit in Orthodox Baptism and if so, what is it?


I fear to make an answer since I fear that you will use it in some strange way.

But we can of course say that the Holy Spirit is present and working in ALL the Holy Mysteries whether it be Baptism, the Tonsuring of a monk or nun, the Blessing of Theophany Water, the change of the Bread and Wine....
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« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2010, 10:35:21 AM »

elijahmaria, you'll find the answer in the Orthodox baptism service. Related answers can also be found in the Orthodox Vigil for Theophany.

One of the things I find in the Orthodox baptism service, in fact, that prompted my question is an anointing with the Oil of Gladness for the healing of soul and body.

Now I do not confuse the anointing with the oil of gladness with the Chrismation. 

What I do is wonder how one can be healed in soul and body without the action of the Holy Spirit?

Father has said that healing does not take place until the baptizand is Chrismated.


Mary, I am going to be very blunt since you so frequently misrepresent what I say.  It is for this very reason that I hesitate to answer your question, as I have already said.  Now whether your misrepresentation comes from the dullness of my mind because I express myself so unclearly or whether it comes from your inability to understand me, I do not know.... but, <big letters coming!> Father has NOT said that healing does not take place until the baptizand is Chrismated.
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« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2010, 10:45:56 AM »

elijahmaria, you'll find the answer in the Orthodox baptism service. Related answers can also be found in the Orthodox Vigil for Theophany.

One of the things I find in the Orthodox baptism service, in fact, that prompted my question is an anointing with the Oil of Gladness for the healing of soul and body.

Now I do not confuse the anointing with the oil of gladness with the Chrismation. 

What I do is wonder how one can be healed in soul and body without the action of the Holy Spirit?

Father has said that healing does not take place until the baptizand is Chrismated.


Mary, I am going to be very blunt since you so frequently misrepresent what I say.  It is for this very reason that I hesitate to answer your question, as I have already said.  Now whether your misrepresentation comes from the dullness of my mind because I express myself so unclearly or whether it comes from your inability to understand me, I do not know.... but, <big letters coming!> Father has NOT said that healing does not take place until the baptizand is Chrismated.

All right. 

So I could say that in Baptism there is a healing of soul and body by the power of the Holy Spirit?

M
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« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2010, 11:01:51 AM »


So I could say that in Baptism there is a healing of soul and body by the power of the Holy Spirit?

*You* could say that but I prefer to be cautious, not because what you say is not ostensibly true but because I have seen in other topics that seemingly correct statements may have an underlying questionable basis and may then lead on to unorthodox conclusions.   
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« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2010, 11:12:18 AM »

So in Orthodoxy a Baptised person is not truly saved until they are Chrismated.

So in Orthodoxy a person is never fully saved because of the infinite depth of God.
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2010, 11:35:47 AM »


So I could say that in Baptism there is a healing of soul and body by the power of the Holy Spirit?

*You* could say that but I prefer to be cautious,  

It is always good to be cautious, but what is a set of beliefs in faith that cannot bear to be interrogated?  I am not attacking; I am asking.

So if Baptism opens the soul by the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of the Holy Spirit heals soul and body, then what is the action of the Holy Spirit in Confirmation that is different from that which occurs in Baptism?
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2010, 11:47:58 AM »

Perhaps it is important to remember that a wide diversity of baptismal practices existed in the first centuries of the early Church.  I remember reading about all of this in some depth when I was in seminary (I had a keen interest in the theology and praxis of baptism), but I have forgotten most of what I knew.  A good introduction is Aidan Kavanagh's The Shape of Baptism, though no doubt even better introductions have been subsequently written.  

The most interesting baptismal rite (interesting by way of contrast) is found in the early East Syriac Churches.  The rite of initiation consisted of an anointing, water bath, concluding in Eucharist.  Apparently there was neither a post-baptismal anointing or laying on of hands.  And unlike the pre-baptismal anointing found, e.g., in other parts of the Church, the meaning of the Syriac anointing was most definitely pneumatic: the Spirit is poured out before the descent into the water-tomb.    The lesson, I guess, is: don't think of these matters in too linear a fashion.  
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2010, 11:54:31 AM »

Perhaps it is important to remember that a wide diversity of baptismal practices existed in the first centuries of the early Church.  I remember reading about all of this in some depth when I was in seminary (I had a keen interest in the theology and praxis of baptism), but I have forgotten most of what I knew.  A good introduction is Aidan Kavanagh's The Shape of Baptism, though no doubt even better introductions have been subsequently written.  

The most interesting baptismal rite (interesting by way of contrast) is found in the early East Syriac Churches.  The rite of initiation consisted of an anointing, water bath, concluding in Eucharist.  Apparently there was neither a post-baptismal anointing or laying on of hands.  And unlike the pre-baptismal anointing found, e.g., in other parts of the Church, the meaning of the Syriac anointing was most definitely pneumatic: the Spirit is poured out before the descent into the water-tomb.    The lesson, I guess, is: don't think of these matters in too linear a fashion.  

I think something like this is what has prompted Chris's initial inquiry.  

In St. Cyril's Protocatechesis that Father Ambrose mentioned a few notes ago, in the section on Chrismation, St. Cyril refers to..."the spiritual oil of gladness, the Holy Spirit"...so we see a direct connection with the Holy Spirit in Baptism, even in the linear form that occurred then and occurs now in the Byzantine rite and ritual.

The question seems to be, to me, not just the order of the service but the meaning of the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and then the further action of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation, when Chrismation follows in an order of sequence and is distinct from Baptism.

How are the actions different?

M.
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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2010, 02:22:36 PM »

The question seems to be, to me, not just the order of the service but the meaning of the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and then the further action of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation, when Chrismation follows in an order of sequence and is distinct from Baptism.

How are the actions different?

M.

My understanding is that Baptism is a cleansing, regeneration, and grafting into the Church, where Chrismation is a sealing and ordination to the royal priesthood of the believer. Both are done by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2010, 02:31:15 PM »

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?
What I see in your question is the focus on the individual's participation in baptism and the Holy Spirit's working within the individual to actuate the grace of baptism.  I believe your focus is misplaced.  The sacramental mystery of baptism is first a sacrament of the Church, and it is the Holy Spirit working through the community of those gathered as the Church, the Body of Christ, that actuates the grace of baptism.
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« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2010, 03:34:47 PM »

The question seems to be, to me, not just the order of the service but the meaning of the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and then the further action of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation, when Chrismation follows in an order of sequence and is distinct from Baptism.

How are the actions different?

M.

My understanding is that Baptism is a cleansing, regeneration, and grafting into the Church, where Chrismation is a sealing and ordination to the royal priesthood of the believer. Both are done by the Holy Spirit.

I was going to use this passage below in another recently active thread on Baptism but I can use it here just as well.  It is one of my favorite catechetical texts concerning Holy Baptism because it is so clear, and so spiritually complete in its expression.  I was going to follow up a reflection that I've already posted on Baptism being a grafting of the soul into Christ, or as you say above, into the Body of Christ, the Church.

You can see the claim that is made for Baptism of water below and I think that fits well with what you've said above.  Baptism opens us to the Indwelling Trinity, or perhaps better said in this context, Baptism provides that simple singular form in the soul where God is now free to come and go.  Where before He could only operate externally to us, now He can dwell within us and give us ever increasing participation in his divine life.

St. Dionysius Areopagite, in his Ecclesiastical Hierarchies, [PG 3:485], calls the administration of the anointing with chrism τελετη or making perfect.  This I think comports well also with your understandings, in a more general sense.

And then he also calls Eucharist the deifying mystery and the central sacramental action of the Body of Christ.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

78.  We share in the image of God by virtue of the intellectual activity of our soul; for the body is, as it were, the soul's dwelling place.  Now as a result of Adam's fall, not only were the lineaments of the form imprinted on the soul befouled, but our body also became subject to corruption.  It was because of this that the holy Logos of God took flesh, and being God, He bestowed on us thorugh His own Baptism the water of salvation, so that we might be reborn.

We are reborn through water but the action of the holy and life creating Spirit, so that if we commit ourselves totally to God, we are immediately purified in soul and body by the Holy Spirit who now dwells in us and drives out sin. 

Since the form imprinted on the soul is single and simple, it is not possible as some have thought, for two contrary powers to be present in the soul simultaneously. For when through holy baptism, divine grace in its infinite love permeates the lineaments of God's image--thereby renewing in the soul the capacity for attain the divine likeness--what place is there for the devil?  For light has nothing in common with darkness. [Philokalia, vol 1., St. Diadochos of Photiki, p.280]
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« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2010, 04:59:34 PM »

The question seems to be, to me, not just the order of the service but the meaning of the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and then the further action of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation, when Chrismation follows in an order of sequence and is distinct from Baptism.

How are the actions different?

M.

My understanding is that Baptism is a cleansing, regeneration, and grafting into the Church, where Chrismation is a sealing and ordination to the royal priesthood of the believer. Both are done by the Holy Spirit.

I was going to use this passage below in another recently active thread on Baptism but I can use it here just as well.  It is one of my favorite catechetical texts concerning Holy Baptism because it is so clear, and so spiritually complete in its expression.  I was going to follow up a reflection that I've already posted on Baptism being a grafting of the soul into Christ, or as you say above, into the Body of Christ, the Church.

You can see the claim that is made for Baptism of water below and I think that fits well with what you've said above.  Baptism opens us to the Indwelling Trinity, or perhaps better said in this context, Baptism provides that simple singular form in the soul where God is now free to come and go.  Where before He could only operate externally to us, now He can dwell within us and give us ever increasing participation in his divine life.

St. Dionysius Areopagite, in his Ecclesiastical Hierarchies, [PG 3:485], calls the administration of the anointing with chrism τελετη or making perfect.  This I think comports well also with your understandings, in a more general sense.

And then he also calls Eucharist the deifying mystery and the central sacramental action of the Body of Christ.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

78.  We share in the image of God by virtue of the intellectual activity of our soul; for the body is, as it were, the soul's dwelling place.  Now as a result of Adam's fall, not only were the lineaments of the form imprinted on the soul befouled, but our body also became subject to corruption.  It was because of this that the holy Logos of God took flesh, and being God, He bestowed on us thorugh His own Baptism the water of salvation, so that we might be reborn.

We are reborn through water but the action of the holy and life creating Spirit, so that if we commit ourselves totally to God, we are immediately purified in soul and body by the Holy Spirit who now dwells in us and drives out sin. 

Since the form imprinted on the soul is single and simple, it is not possible as some have thought, for two contrary powers to be present in the soul simultaneously. For when through holy baptism, divine grace in its infinite love permeates the lineaments of God's image--thereby renewing in the soul the capacity for attain the divine likeness--what place is there for the devil?  For light has nothing in common with darkness. [Philokalia, vol 1., St. Diadochos of Photiki, p.280]
elijahmaria,

Knowing that you are an Eastern Catholic who has expressed Eastern and Roman points of view contrary to the Orthodox faith of most on this Faith Issues board, your active presence on this thread is starting to trouble me.  I fear that you may be presenting to us your particularly EC/RC view of baptism as though it were a view taught by the Orthodox Church.  Therefore, I think you would do much better engaging our understanding of baptism on another thread in the Orthodox-Catholic section, so I ask you formally to do so.
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« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2010, 05:16:50 PM »

The question seems to be, to me, not just the order of the service but the meaning of the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and then the further action of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation, when Chrismation follows in an order of sequence and is distinct from Baptism.

How are the actions different?

M.

My understanding is that Baptism is a cleansing, regeneration, and grafting into the Church, where Chrismation is a sealing and ordination to the royal priesthood of the believer. Both are done by the Holy Spirit.

I was going to use this passage below in another recently active thread on Baptism but I can use it here just as well.  It is one of my favorite catechetical texts concerning Holy Baptism because it is so clear, and so spiritually complete in its expression.  I was going to follow up a reflection that I've already posted on Baptism being a grafting of the soul into Christ, or as you say above, into the Body of Christ, the Church.

You can see the claim that is made for Baptism of water below and I think that fits well with what you've said above.  Baptism opens us to the Indwelling Trinity, or perhaps better said in this context, Baptism provides that simple singular form in the soul where God is now free to come and go.  Where before He could only operate externally to us, now He can dwell within us and give us ever increasing participation in his divine life.

St. Dionysius Areopagite, in his Ecclesiastical Hierarchies, [PG 3:485], calls the administration of the anointing with chrism τελετη or making perfect.  This I think comports well also with your understandings, in a more general sense.

And then he also calls Eucharist the deifying mystery and the central sacramental action of the Body of Christ.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

78.  We share in the image of God by virtue of the intellectual activity of our soul; for the body is, as it were, the soul's dwelling place.  Now as a result of Adam's fall, not only were the lineaments of the form imprinted on the soul befouled, but our body also became subject to corruption.  It was because of this that the holy Logos of God took flesh, and being God, He bestowed on us thorugh His own Baptism the water of salvation, so that we might be reborn.

We are reborn through water but the action of the holy and life creating Spirit, so that if we commit ourselves totally to God, we are immediately purified in soul and body by the Holy Spirit who now dwells in us and drives out sin. 

Since the form imprinted on the soul is single and simple, it is not possible as some have thought, for two contrary powers to be present in the soul simultaneously. For when through holy baptism, divine grace in its infinite love permeates the lineaments of God's image--thereby renewing in the soul the capacity for attain the divine likeness--what place is there for the devil?  For light has nothing in common with darkness. [Philokalia, vol 1., St. Diadochos of Photiki, p.280]
elijahmaria,

Knowing that you are an Eastern Catholic who has expressed Eastern and Roman points of view contrary to the Orthodox faith of most on this Faith Issues board, your active presence on this thread is starting to trouble me.  I fear that you may be presenting to us your particularly EC/RC view of baptism as though it were a view taught by the Orthodox Church.  Therefore, I think you would do much better engaging our understanding of baptism on another thread in the Orthodox-Catholic section, so I ask you formally to do so.


Given the fact that every one of my sources is an eastern source, and given the fact that you have already been quite rude to me privately I would like to appeal this ruling.  To whom do I direct my inquiry?

And does this also hold true for Father Kimel or am I being singled out?

Mary
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« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2010, 05:39:31 PM »

Can someone explain to me how a person's participation in the Death and Resurrection of Christ could possibly occur if they have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (afterwards at Chrismation)?

Dear Chris,

I regret that no Oriental Orthodox have as yet taken up your question and made an answer, so I shall offer one thing for contemplation...

Passages in Scripture show that Baptism needs to be completed by the conferring of the Holy Spirit.  For example, Acts 8...

"When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.  Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

But as I wrote earlier, I believe you should seek understanding on this question from an Oriental priest and I imagine that you are already under instruction as you make the journey into the Oriental Church.
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« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2010, 06:39:46 PM »

The question seems to be, to me, not just the order of the service but the meaning of the action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and then the further action of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation, when Chrismation follows in an order of sequence and is distinct from Baptism.

How are the actions different?

M.

My understanding is that Baptism is a cleansing, regeneration, and grafting into the Church, where Chrismation is a sealing and ordination to the royal priesthood of the believer. Both are done by the Holy Spirit.

I was going to use this passage below in another recently active thread on Baptism but I can use it here just as well.  It is one of my favorite catechetical texts concerning Holy Baptism because it is so clear, and so spiritually complete in its expression.  I was going to follow up a reflection that I've already posted on Baptism being a grafting of the soul into Christ, or as you say above, into the Body of Christ, the Church.

You can see the claim that is made for Baptism of water below and I think that fits well with what you've said above.  Baptism opens us to the Indwelling Trinity, or perhaps better said in this context, Baptism provides that simple singular form in the soul where God is now free to come and go.  Where before He could only operate externally to us, now He can dwell within us and give us ever increasing participation in his divine life.

St. Dionysius Areopagite, in his Ecclesiastical Hierarchies, [PG 3:485], calls the administration of the anointing with chrism τελετη or making perfect.  This I think comports well also with your understandings, in a more general sense.

And then he also calls Eucharist the deifying mystery and the central sacramental action of the Body of Christ.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

78.  We share in the image of God by virtue of the intellectual activity of our soul; for the body is, as it were, the soul's dwelling place.  Now as a result of Adam's fall, not only were the lineaments of the form imprinted on the soul befouled, but our body also became subject to corruption.  It was because of this that the holy Logos of God took flesh, and being God, He bestowed on us thorugh His own Baptism the water of salvation, so that we might be reborn.

We are reborn through water but the action of the holy and life creating Spirit, so that if we commit ourselves totally to God, we are immediately purified in soul and body by the Holy Spirit who now dwells in us and drives out sin.  

Since the form imprinted on the soul is single and simple, it is not possible as some have thought, for two contrary powers to be present in the soul simultaneously. For when through holy baptism, divine grace in its infinite love permeates the lineaments of God's image--thereby renewing in the soul the capacity for attain the divine likeness--what place is there for the devil?  For light has nothing in common with darkness. [Philokalia, vol 1., St. Diadochos of Photiki, p.280]
elijahmaria,

Knowing that you are an Eastern Catholic who has expressed Eastern and Roman points of view contrary to the Orthodox faith of most on this Faith Issues board, your active presence on this thread is starting to trouble me.  I fear that you may be presenting to us your particularly EC/RC view of baptism as though it were a view taught by the Orthodox Church.  Therefore, I think you would do much better engaging our understanding of baptism on another thread in the Orthodox-Catholic section, so I ask you formally to do so.


Given the fact that every one of my sources is an eastern source, and given the fact that you have already been quite rude to me privately I would like to appeal this ruling.  To whom do I direct my inquiry?
Please send your appeal via private message to Fr. George.

And does this also hold true for Father Kimel or am I being singled out?

Mary
If you have any more questions about my decision, please send them to me or to Fr. George via private message.  I will not entertain questions of my decision here.
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« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2010, 07:03:37 PM »

One thing I am wondering is if the operation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is satisfied simply by that of the officiating Priest/Bishop?
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« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2010, 07:06:21 PM »

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

There is a logic to this teaching of theirs but I rejoice that God is not constrained by human logic.

That doesn't sound good. I generally don't like teachings which speculate particular groups or individuals who are going to inherit eternal damnation. It seems to take the Judgment out of God's hands and on top of that seems to limit the power of the petition of the Church on behalf of the deceased.

However, I don't know how connected such a thing is to the topic at hand...  Huh
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« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2010, 07:10:17 PM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

Hmmm. I've been taught in my history in EOy that the "Baptism of the Spirit" is actually Chrismation itself.

Go ahead and respond if you'd like, but I would also like to ask if any other EO or OO people would respond to this particular point.

I am just curious, why you ask?

Because my understanding is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that was received on the Day of Pentecost and then later by laying on of hands or chrismation is the core state by which all the other Sacraments are generated. So I'm having a hard time understanding how Baptism could take into effect if the believer does not yet have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2010, 07:13:00 PM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'




Oh good, someone did comment on what I was wondering about.

So it would appear that I was right about chrismation being the proper rite through which the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received.

Then it still leaves me wondering how the cleansing of Baptism is operated.

The only idea I've thought of is through the indwelling that is already in the Priest/Bishop.

Does that sound right, or do you have another explanation?
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« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2010, 07:15:44 PM »

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

Do they accept EO baptisms?

The recognition of EO rites are quite various and I think kind of a mess within the Oriental churches right now. Some recognize none of them. Some recognize only Baptism. Some recognize Baptism and Chrismation (while requiring I suppose Confession before admittance). And then some recognize all in general and just receive EO to Communion without any other form of initiation.
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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2010, 07:17:52 PM »

In March 2007, the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches in Egypt officially and publicly protested in the newsmedia against Metropolitan Bishoy's teachings that Catholics and Protestants will not be saved.

If he meant this in the sense of "if they persist in their heresies without ever converting they will not be saved", I find it more agreeable. However, if he is saying this in the sense that "they will never be saved" as if they have no chance of being turned, I definitely think that that is problematic.
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« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2010, 07:21:03 PM »

I know that you are heading into the Oriental Church and you may want to look at the teaching of Pope Shenouda and also Mar Bishoy (the second-ranking bishop of the Coptic Church) who teach that all the non-baptized, as also Protestants and Catholics are going to hell.

There is a logic to this teaching of theirs but I rejoice that God is not constrained by human logic.

That doesn't sound good. I generally don't like teachings which speculate particular groups or individuals who are going to inherit eternal damnation. It seems to take the Judgment out of God's hands and on top of that seems to limit the power of the petition of the Church on behalf of the deceased.

However, I don't know how connected such a thing is to the topic at hand...  Huh

The point I am making is that there are some unexpected surprises in Oriental baptismal theology as well as contrary teachings among the Oriental Churches.  This makes it presumptuous for Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox to answer your question. Discuss it with the Oriental priest who is catechising you.  And if you like to get back to us with his answers, I for one would be interested.
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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2010, 07:23:49 PM »

In the Orthodox baptismal liturgy the Holy Spirit is given in the Baptism of water and Spirit [note the anointing for the healing of soul and body before immersion] and Confirmed during Chrismation when the person is sealed in the Holy Spirit.   That is how the person may die and rise again with Christ in Baptism.

It is mistaken to conceive of the Oil of Gladness as being the conferral of the Holy Spirit as if there are two receptions of the Holy Spirit, one prior to Baotism and one after.  You turn the right order of things upside down.  Baptism into Christ must proceed the coming of the Spirit into the newly washed temple of the soul.

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Catechetical Lectures, gives the correct teaching about this anointing prior to Baptism:

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ.  For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree,and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree.  The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence.  For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one.
4.  After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism...'




Oh good, someone did comment on what I was wondering about.

So it would appear that I was right about chrismation being the proper rite through which the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received.

Then it still leaves me wondering how the cleansing of Baptism is operated.

The only idea I've thought of is through the indwelling that is already in the Priest/Bishop.

Does that sound right, or do you have another explanation?
What of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is already in the Church?
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« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2010, 07:23:56 PM »

Are you saying that in Orthodoxy the Holy Spirit has no part in Baptism?

He still possibly could through the indwelling of the officiating Priest/Bishop.

Baptism alone does not save?

Of course it doesn't. The strong distinction between Baptism and Chrismation/Confirmation is a Latin innovation and many of the early Fathers would appear to have recognized Chrismation/Confirmation as actually a part of the whole event called "Baptism", given that they did not independently mention any such Chrismation/Confirmation in their lists of the Sacraments, though they certainly performed that rite.

It should also be clear that someone could not be fully redeemed without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And are you saying then that the teaching of Baptism by Water and Spirit is, in reality, Baptism-Chrismation by Water and the Spirit?

I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying. That "Baptism by Water" is what we commonly call "Baptism" whereas "Baptism by the Spirit" is what we commonly call Chrismation/Confirmation. I'm pretty sure that this is common EO/OO teaching as I remember being taught it before this thread and IrishHermit seems to have confirmed that view.
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