OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 02:01:15 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: More stumbling blocks to my Conversion.  (Read 3654 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« on: May 30, 2010, 06:39:15 PM »

Well, as of now I am still in the "process" of converting to Orthodoxy through a Greek parish.  Although I have many doubts and have meet more then one obstacle to my reversion.  For the past several months I have been talking with a GOA priest and he really seems to want to bring me back into the fold as soon as possible, despite my doubts.  He seems to believe that by just joining up with the Church, the Holy Spirit will do its work on me and all problems and concerns that I have will eventually dissipate.  This really sounds somewhat problematic to me, but that seems to be the way that he is directing me towards.

The priest is a nice man, however he seems to have a very weak understanding of the RCC and her theology, liturgy, doctrine, and morals.  This has created a real problem for me because some of my questions and doubts stem from issues with RC doctrine and how they relate to Orthodoxy.  The priest has admitted to me that he knows very little about the RCC (He comes from a Protestant backround).  I want to continue to grow in my journey, but unless I can find someone who knows a thing or two about the issues that I have then its almost like conversing with a brick wall which one has run up against.  



Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 06:59:42 PM »

Well, as of now I am still in the "process" of converting to Orthodoxy through a Greek parish.  Although I have many doubts and have meet more then one obstacle to my reversion.  For the past several months I have been talking with a GOA priest and he really seems to want to bring me back into the fold as soon as possible, despite my doubts.  He seems to believe that by just joining up with the Church, the Holy Spirit will do its work on me and all problems and concerns that I have will eventually dissipate.  This really sounds somewhat problematic to me, but that seems to be the way that he is directing me towards.

The priest is a nice man, however he seems to have a very weak understanding of the RCC and her theology, liturgy, doctrine, and morals.  This has created a real problem for me because some of my questions and doubts stem from issues with RC doctrine and how they relate to Orthodoxy.  The priest has admitted to me that he knows very little about the RCC (He comes from a Protestant backround).  I want to continue to grow in my journey, but unless I can find someone who knows a thing or two about the issues that I have then its almost like conversing with a brick wall which one has run up against.  

I'm curious: could you give a specific example of the type of question you have concerning RC doctrine and its relation to Orthodoxy?
Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2010, 08:15:46 PM »

Well, as of now I am still in the "process" of converting to Orthodoxy through a Greek parish.  Although I have many doubts and have meet more then one obstacle to my reversion.  For the past several months I have been talking with a GOA priest and he really seems to want to bring me back into the fold as soon as possible, despite my doubts.  He seems to believe that by just joining up with the Church, the Holy Spirit will do its work on me and all problems and concerns that I have will eventually dissipate.  This really sounds somewhat problematic to me, but that seems to be the way that he is directing me towards.

The priest is a nice man, however he seems to have a very weak understanding of the RCC and her theology, liturgy, doctrine, and morals.  This has created a real problem for me because some of my questions and doubts stem from issues with RC doctrine and how they relate to Orthodoxy.  The priest has admitted to me that he knows very little about the RCC (He comes from a Protestant backround).  I want to continue to grow in my journey, but unless I can find someone who knows a thing or two about the issues that I have then its almost like conversing with a brick wall which one has run up against.


You like to diss us "know it all" converts alot, but it seems as if you are in need of one now to help you out. Why can't you just join for the reasons you keep talking about in your other posts? You know...the ethnic cultures, the smell, the food.....etc?

Why can't you just ignore the head issue? Isn't that what you want us "know it all" converts to do? Ignore all the head issues? You should be nicer to us "converts from protestantism" Robb! We are not your enemy, and I would like to be your friend.

Just take it slow Rob! I would rather you take it slow and get these issues straighten out first anyway. Either that or Become Orthodox now with the burdon of carrying this cross of intellectual RCC doctrinal doubt for some time.




Inlove Jnorm
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2010, 09:24:27 PM »

Your like a reed ,blowing in the wind ,Holy Orthodoxy ,Catholicisim ,Holy Orthodoxy.... Huh We Have to take a stand eventally And grow deep roots and stick with it... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2010, 01:44:54 AM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican. 

The priest told me flatly that he didn't have much experience with the RCC and therefore didn't know much about her doctrines, and stances on various issues (I actually had to explain to him things like the difference between mortal and venial sins, the "State of Grace", and so on).  I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.  Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in?  I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2010, 03:56:03 AM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican. 

The priest told me flatly that he didn't have much experience with the RCC and therefore didn't know much about her doctrines, and stances on various issues (I actually had to explain to him things like the difference between mortal and venial sins, the "State of Grace", and so on).  I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.  Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in?  I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.

Ask another priest, look it up on the internet, etc. Personally, I have talked to Catholic priests and religious educators and they know absolutely nothing about Orthodoxy - they seem to always just say "We're basically the same!" But, in any case, don't hinge your faith on one man's knowledge. Or for that matter, how "relevant" it seems to western society. Look for the truth, that is what is important. General society in all times and places has always been ignorant and generally hostile to the truth which convicts them.

BTW, the church is not "divided" as people often say. There are different jurisdictions but the Serbian, Russian, Georgian, etc Orthodox churches all believe the same thing - just because they do not have one unquestionable, supposedly infallible director (besides the Holy Spirit) like the Catholic church does, does not mean they are at odds with one another. In fact, they have managed to remain united. The Hierarchs of the church have as of the past week also told all the jurisdictions in the USA that they must become canonically regular by 2012, so except for schismatic groups by 2013 there will be no "Ethnic Orthodox" churches in the USA, only one American Orthodox church.
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2010, 04:13:07 AM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican.

Robb, if I may ask, what, if anything, makes you think that the OC may be the one true Church?
Logged
Feanor
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 205



« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2010, 06:45:30 AM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican. 

The priest told me flatly that he didn't have much experience with the RCC and therefore didn't know much about her doctrines, and stances on various issues (I actually had to explain to him things like the difference between mortal and venial sins, the "State of Grace", and so on).  I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.  Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in?  I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.



The reasons you listed are among the reasons why I'm seriously considering going back to Rome.
Logged
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2010, 07:13:17 AM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican. 

The priest told me flatly that he didn't have much experience with the RCC and therefore didn't know much about her doctrines, and stances on various issues (I actually had to explain to him things like the difference between mortal and venial sins, the "State of Grace", and so on).  I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.  Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in?  I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.



The reasons you listed are among the reasons why I'm seriously considering going back to Rome.


You both should go based on what you think is true, not on whether the church here is small, whether you think it's divided (which it's not), who other people look to (our own church has it's own stance on issues, which last I checked were pretty much the same as the Catholic's), or what other people know.

No offense intended but I find it really bizarre that people try to decide what church they should be in based on things like this. A belief system is a set of truths that are true or not - but people like to choose their churches based on things like whether they like the music or style of chant, the atmosphere of their available churches, how big it is, things like this and the above. It is like me saying "Oh, it would be easier to go to the Catholic church, it's 1/4th as far, there's one just about everywhere, and I can go to the monastery by school and have communion every day." All things that would be really nice to me but that don't change the fact that as far as I can tell their beliefs are wrong.
Logged
Feanor
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 205



« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2010, 08:12:39 AM »

Except that there is actually very little about Catholic doctrine which is genuinely objectional from the perspective of Byzantine/Orthodox theology; and the Catholic Church fully accepts all Orthodox doctrines, except the ecclesiology of the OC which claims itself to be the 'one, true church, outside of which there is no sacramental grace or salvation.' The Catholic Church accepts the fullness of faith, whereas the OC dismissed anything outside Byzantine liturgy, theology and spirituality. The writings of Catholic mystics and theologians are considered to be worthless by most Orthodox. The closed-minded attitude of the OC towards anything outside its religious patrimony is something which I find, frankly, quite immature.
Logged
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2010, 08:45:22 AM »

Except that there is actually very little about Catholic doctrine which is genuinely objectional from the perspective of Byzantine/Orthodox theology; and the Catholic Church fully accepts all Orthodox doctrines, except the ecclesiology of the OC which claims itself to be the 'one, true church, outside of which there is no sacramental grace or salvation.' The Catholic Church accepts the fullness of faith, whereas the OC dismissed anything outside Byzantine liturgy, theology and spirituality. The writings of Catholic mystics and theologians are considered to be worthless by most Orthodox. The closed-minded attitude of the OC towards anything outside its religious patrimony is something which I find, frankly, quite immature.


Well, there is very little then, that doesn't change it I think. From what you say, basically, Catholicism is Orthodoxy plus some. Is that some true or not?

In my experience Orthodox are exceptionally open minded so I really don't understand the claim that it is close minded. My priest has pointed out to me that we do know where the church is, but we don't know where it isn't. Christ said there are those who are of his flock who we don't know about, and there are those we think are in it, wolves in sheeps clothing, who are not actually.

Also, there are plenty of rites in the Orthodox church besides the Byzantine one. You might not have them locally, but really, can anyone blame a church founded by say, Russians, for wanting to use their rite? Likewise, those that use western rites are typically composed of people of western heritage. It would be really bizarre for a bunch of Greeks to get up one day and say "Hey let's change our liturgy to be based on the Stowe Missal" - why would they? Have you ever heard of a Irish Catholic parish deciding they're going to start using the Melkite liturgy or something like that? The Catholic church has it's own liturgical issues, people that think the mass should be in Latin only, etc. The thing with those people, and the Byzantine-onlyists, is that neither of them actually represent the opinion of the church. Western rites are canonically accepted, non-Latin masses are canonically accepted, neither stance (Byzantine only or Latin only) is normative.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2010, 08:57:06 AM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican. 

The priest told me flatly that he didn't have much experience with the RCC and therefore didn't know much about her doctrines, and stances on various issues (I actually had to explain to him things like the difference between mortal and venial sins, the "State of Grace", and so on).  I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.  Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in?  I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.

No, education in other faiths is not generally included in the seminary/theological school experience - Orthodoxy is complicated enough to require a lifetime of study, and generally depends on the charism given to those who leave one faith to enter Holy Orthodoxy to speak about conversion (like St. Paul speaking to Jews, for example).  In that vein, if you wish to specifically speak with a priest about OC vs. RC, then you should seek out a priest who has been RC or who has had a lot of experience with the RC church.  Or, you should engage those users here who have converted from RC and who have an intimate knowledge of both faiths.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2010, 09:04:37 AM »

Except that there is actually very little about Catholic doctrine which is genuinely objectional from the perspective of Byzantine/Orthodox theology;

Eh, that's a brush stroke that is far too broad to be accurate.

and the Catholic Church fully accepts all Orthodox doctrines, except the ecclesiology of the OC which claims itself to be the 'one, true church, outside of which there is no sacramental grace or salvation.'

Of course they reject (amongst other things) OC ecclesiology - they have their own, in which they claim themselves to be the 'one, true church, outside of which there is no sacramental grace or salvation.'

The Catholic Church accepts the fullness of faith, whereas the OC dismissed anything outside Byzantine liturgy, theology and spirituality.

No, on all 3 counts.  Yes, the "Byzantine" liturgy predominates, but it has its roots in the Liturgy of Antioch, and Jerusalem has their own rite which predominates their worship.  As for theology and spirituality, the spectrum is pretty broad, with influences from Egypt, Syria, Eastern Europe, Italy, and the Balkans all mixed together with the Eastern Roman.

The writings of Catholic mystics and theologians are considered to be worthless by most Orthodox. The closed-minded attitude of the OC towards anything outside its religious patrimony is something which I find, frankly, quite immature.

There are literally thousands upon thousands of writings on Orthodox spirituality, ecclesiology, theology, sacramental life, etc.  Of course we're going to encourage people to read from that wealth of material, rather than seeking out the writings of those who do not believe as we do.  Why seek a grain of truth that must be sifted out of an otherwise useless pile, when you can find a whole Mill of truth and be filled without having to sift?  My closest friend from childhood would call it, "work smarter, not harder," which is a greater sign of maturity than forcing yourself to labor for little gain.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 09:06:05 AM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2010, 09:06:07 AM »

Except that there is actually very little about Catholic doctrine which is genuinely objectional from the perspective of Byzantine/Orthodox theology; and the Catholic Church fully accepts all Orthodox doctrines, except the ecclesiology of the OC which claims itself to be the 'one, true church, outside of which there is no sacramental grace or salvation'....
There's another Orthodox doctrine that the Roman Catholics reject: the Final Judgement occurring at the parousia, not at death.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,917


« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2010, 09:13:41 AM »

Except that there is actually very little about Catholic doctrine which is genuinely objectional from the perspective of Byzantine/Orthodox theology; and the Catholic Church fully accepts all Orthodox doctrines, except the ecclesiology of the OC which claims itself to be the 'one, true church, outside of which there is no sacramental grace or salvation.' The Catholic Church accepts the fullness of faith, whereas the OC dismissed anything outside Byzantine liturgy, theology and spirituality. The writings of Catholic mystics and theologians are considered to be worthless by most Orthodox. The closed-minded attitude of the OC towards anything outside its religious patrimony is something which I find, frankly, quite immature.

Well I can give you a couple of living 21st century concerns that I would have by our compromising with Rome (at least in the USA). The RCC is closing parishes left & right where I live; one nearby town of Nanticoke, Pa. had 6 parishes in 2009 & will have one by next year. This consolidation of parishes has a neutral, corporate enterprise approach to it but the impact is that some eastern rite parishes are also being closed and these being a tiny minority, could result in the possible phasing out of Byzantine rite worship. Considering the many variables that have appeared in the post Vatican II mass, being able to worship liturgically with a sense of "in spirit and in truth" (per John 4:24) would concern me deeply.

Also, eastern rite priests must be celibate in America but not so in the old world. Eastern rite priests were not mandatorily celibate when the first parishes were formed in America so why this requirement? I watched a discussion on EWTN re celibacy in the priesthood, & a Latin rite priest said that this is a Latin rite requirement. So why are non Latin rite priests in America required to be celibate?

I believe Rome sincerely wants reconciliation with the Orthodox with a striving to fulfill the Lord's command that we all be one. Nonetheless, what would the impact be on the Orthodox faith?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 09:15:57 AM by recent convert » Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2010, 09:32:10 AM »

I watched a discussion on EWTN re celibacy in the priesthood, & a Latin rite priest said that this is a Latin rite requirement. So why are non Latin rite priests in America required to be celibate?
I think the reason has to do with not causing un-due confusion among the laity in America. Most Catholics in America are Latin rite, and have known only celibate (i.e., un-married) priests.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 09:33:43 AM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2010, 09:33:59 AM »

Except that there is actually very little about Catholic doctrine which is genuinely objectional from the perspective of Byzantine/Orthodox theology;

Eh, that's a brush stroke that is far too broad to be accurate.

and the Catholic Church fully accepts all Orthodox doctrines, except the ecclesiology of the OC which claims itself to be the 'one, true church, outside of which there is no sacramental grace or salvation.'

Of course they reject (amongst other things) OC ecclesiology - they have their own, in which they claim themselves to be the 'one, true church, outside of which there is no sacramental grace or salvation.'

The Catholic Church accepts the fullness of faith, whereas the OC dismissed anything outside Byzantine liturgy, theology and spirituality.

No, on all 3 counts.  Yes, the "Byzantine" liturgy predominates, but it has its roots in the Liturgy of Antioch, and Jerusalem has their own rite which predominates their worship.  As for theology and spirituality, the spectrum is pretty broad, with influences from Egypt, Syria, Eastern Europe, Italy, and the Balkans all mixed together with the Eastern Roman.

The writings of Catholic mystics and theologians are considered to be worthless by most Orthodox. The closed-minded attitude of the OC towards anything outside its religious patrimony is something which I find, frankly, quite immature.

There are literally thousands upon thousands of writings on Orthodox spirituality, ecclesiology, theology, sacramental life, etc.  Of course we're going to encourage people to read from that wealth of material, rather than seeking out the writings of those who do not believe as we do.  Why seek a grain of truth that must be sifted out of an otherwise useless pile, when you can find a whole Mill of truth and be filled without having to sift?  My closest friend from childhood would call it, "work smarter, not harder," which is a greater sign of maturity than forcing yourself to labor for little gain.
That is true for the most part. There is the aspect that Eastern is best because it is Eastern, however, which slips through this crack/gapping hole.  And yes, it does as a whole emphasize whatever happened in Constantiinople as much, if not more, than the Vatican emphasizes Roman ritual above all else: Constantinople strangled its roots in Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.

There is lot of stuff from the Celtic Church, for instance, which is fully Orthodox.

But yes, there is a difference between us and the Vatican.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,357



« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2010, 11:08:47 AM »

"How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society". 
As I've said before, your assumptions are (IMHO, of course) incorrect. Bigger is not necessarily better, or true. If it were, we could assume that nondenominational megachurches are God's plan.

Quote
"The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position,
Another incorrect assumption - although it may be due to the fact that I live in a buckle on the Bible Belt. I assure you that no one here is looking to the RCC for moral leadership. In fact, most (and I'm talking non-Orthodox here) seem to think that the RCC has been crippled and reduced to moral irrelevancy by the scandals.

Quote
even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican. 
I would be interested to see any documentation of this, since I believe people like Fr. Stanley Harakas, for example, are perfectly able to think for themselves.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2010, 11:13:47 AM »

Your like a reed ,blowing in the wind ,Holy Orthodoxy ,Catholicisim ,Holy Orthodoxy.... Huh We Have to take a stand eventally And grow deep roots and stick with it... Grin

Heaven help us!

I actually agree with stashko.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2010, 11:20:10 AM »

Your like a reed ,blowing in the wind ,Holy Orthodoxy ,Catholicisim ,Holy Orthodoxy.... Huh We Have to take a stand eventally And grow deep roots and stick with it... Grin

Heaven help us!

I actually agree with stashko.
You're beginning to see the Light.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,878



« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2010, 11:20:59 AM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican.  

The priest told me flatly that he didn't have much experience with the RCC and therefore didn't know much about her doctrines, and stances on various issues (I actually had to explain to him things like the difference between mortal and venial sins, the "State of Grace", and so on).  I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.  Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in?  I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.

You are betraying a preference for RF (Robb's Faith) instead of either the RCC or OC. IMHO, you should investigate the Protestant realm for something that suits you better. Seriously, I find your arrogance to shine like a beacon in the night: your sentence "I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join" is representative of your esteem in your own greatness. If you are serious about the Orthodox Church, I suggest you bring yourself down a notch or two.

BTW, you still have not satisfactorily explained why you libeled Metropolitan Jonah. What gives?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 11:42:41 AM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,917


« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2010, 11:58:19 AM »

I watched a discussion on EWTN re celibacy in the priesthood, & a Latin rite priest said that this is a Latin rite requirement. So why are non Latin rite priests in America required to be celibate?
I think the reason has to do with not causing un-due confusion among the laity in America. Most Catholics in America are Latin rite, and have known only celibate (i.e., un-married) priests.
I realize that & believe the discussion was sincere but nonetheless the situation is problematic.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,469


WWW
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2010, 12:00:32 PM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society". 

Just leave this forum and embrace the Prosperity Gospel, Pat Robertson or any ideology which makes you big, united and relevant to Western society

"The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican.

You don't like answering questions or responding to requests others have made.  Here's another one: cite 2 examples where any OC Church and/or Hierarch has taken a lead from the Vatican on modern moral issues.   Angry 
 
The priest told me flatly that he didn't have much experience with the RCC and therefore didn't know much about her doctrines, and stances on various issues (I actually had to explain to him things like the difference between mortal and venial sins, the "State of Grace", and so on).  I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.  Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in? 

Why use the word, "rivals?"   Huh

I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.

So, you strive to be a one man Ecumenical Council.   Shocked
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2010, 12:14:31 PM »

I don't think the response of "go somewhere else" is helpful.

We Have to take a stand eventally And grow deep roots and stick with it.

Agreed.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,025


"My god is greater."


« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2010, 01:29:53 PM »

Quote
I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary. 

I know an RC priest who, when I mentioned the Second Ecumenical Council, thought I was talking about Vatican II (we were discussing the formulation of the Creed).

Don't think that, to be a good priest, someone has to be a geek like people on this forum.

As for the RCC's supposed unity and "relevance," I'll just reproduce this post from last year by a former Catholic:

One of the things that helped me leave RCism was the realization that there are really two Catholicisms:  Paper Catholicism and Lived Catholicism.

Paper:  Adultery, divorce/remarriage, sodomy, etc. are all grave impediments to the spiritual life of Christians.

Lived:  Anything goes.

One can argue that there's always a gap between the ideal and the reality and I understand this, but in RCism, the gappage is huge and the convert to RCism (like myself) is left in an isolated, lonely position.  The liturgy and modern spirituality of Romanism does not  provide any shape to the soul.  Even if you buy papal supremacy and all the other innovations of the last 1000 years, you end up being an odd ball who is avoided.  I've watched TradCats go through this in the Latin diocese where I live; they are oddities who don't have dates on Friday nights and many end up bachelors/bachelorettes well into their late 30s and 40s. 

Go to a Divine Liturgy and the actions will feed you throughout the week; things to think about and ponder even you're failing in day to day tasks.  A Roman Mass IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE never provided anything worth pondering.  Just people crushing you to get away from the church, to their cars and back to modernity.  I found Romanism to be pretty directionless at the parish level and this is where, in the words of JPII, the Christian's idea and concrete experience of church is experienced.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2010, 04:58:09 PM »

I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.

Really? Might I ask why this would be so?

If you were to learn how to speak Greek, would that also require you to learn some Latin?

Why would someone learning about Orthodox Christianity want to divert part of their attention to learning Roman Catholicism?
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2010, 05:19:04 PM »

Quote
I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary. 

I know an RC priest who, when I mentioned the Second Ecumenical Council, thought I was talking about Vatican II (we were discussing the formulation of the Creed).

Don't think that, to be a good priest, someone has to be a geek like people on this forum.

As for the RCC's supposed unity and "relevance," I'll just reproduce this post from last year by a former Catholic:

One of the things that helped me leave RCism was the realization that there are really two Catholicisms:  Paper Catholicism and Lived Catholicism.

Paper:  Adultery, divorce/remarriage, sodomy, etc. are all grave impediments to the spiritual life of Christians.

Lived:  Anything goes.

One can argue that there's always a gap between the ideal and the reality and I understand this, but in RCism, the gappage is huge and the convert to RCism (like myself) is left in an isolated, lonely position.  The liturgy and modern spirituality of Romanism does not  provide any shape to the soul.  Even if you buy papal supremacy and all the other innovations of the last 1000 years, you end up being an odd ball who is avoided.  I've watched TradCats go through this in the Latin diocese where I live; they are oddities who don't have dates on Friday nights and many end up bachelors/bachelorettes well into their late 30s and 40s. 

Go to a Divine Liturgy and the actions will feed you throughout the week; things to think about and ponder even you're failing in day to day tasks.  A Roman Mass IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE never provided anything worth pondering.  Just people crushing you to get away from the church, to their cars and back to modernity.  I found Romanism to be pretty directionless at the parish level and this is where, in the words of JPII, the Christian's idea and concrete experience of church is experienced.

You could make the same argument's about Orthodoxy as well.  How many OC's are steeped in the modern world, don't go to DL much, or can't wait to get out if they do.  I've met many, many people throughout the course of my life and almost non of them were very religious or even cared much about religion (Except for the people I've met on internet message boards).  I've met a few who really were into their faith, but most of the time they came off as so strict and inhuman that it was really uncomfortable for me to be around them for long due to their devout prudishness.  The most religious people I've ever met besides priest are the old ladies you find in church (of any denomination).  They are the true saints, the true virtuous ones.  When I'm in a jam, its people like them who I'll ask to pray for me. 

All religions have problems like the persons described above.  I don't think that this is solely limited to the RCC.  BTW, how many trad Orthodox people end up in a state of perpetual loneliness?  Probably about the same number as the trad RC's.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2010, 07:00:13 PM »

I think the best thing would be to not focus on the shortcomings of others. The Orthodox who don't go to DL and the super-correct Orthodox both need your prayers. But I find that when I focus on what other people are doing wrong, I am not working on what is wrong in myself (and a lot of times, I find I focus on trying to fix the very same problems in others that I ignore in myself).

If the less-than-faithful among us are a stumbling block, look to the saints. You yourself can become a saint, if you want to (that's generally the point of all this). But you can't judge a doctor's medicine by the patients who refuse to take it, and you can't judge the church by those who don't want to be saints. (And the only ones who are saints don't think they are.)
Logged
Super Apostolic Bros.
Is St. Andrew Luigi to St. Peter's Mario?
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 227



« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2010, 07:38:06 PM »

BTW, how many trad Orthodox people end up in a state of perpetual loneliness?  Probably about the same number as the trad RC's.
Make friends. Meet people. PROBLEM SOLVED.
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2010, 02:46:56 AM »

I think the best thing would be to not focus on the shortcomings of others. The Orthodox who don't go to DL and the super-correct Orthodox both need your prayers. But I find that when I focus on what other people are doing wrong, I am not working on what is wrong in myself (and a lot of times, I find I focus on trying to fix the very same problems in others that I ignore in myself).

If the less-than-faithful among us are a stumbling block, look to the saints. You yourself can become a saint, if you want to (that's generally the point of all this). But you can't judge a doctor's medicine by the patients who refuse to take it, and you can't judge the church by those who don't want to be saints. (And the only ones who are saints don't think they are.)

I agree, but I wasn't posting this out of thin air.  It was in response to a previous post about the supposed shortcomings of Catholics.  Every religion has its faults.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,917


« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2010, 01:34:14 PM »

I watched a discussion on EWTN re celibacy in the priesthood, & a Latin rite priest said that this is a Latin rite requirement. So why are non Latin rite priests in America required to be celibate?
I think the reason has to do with not causing un-due confusion among the laity in America. Most Catholics in America are Latin rite, and have known only celibate (i.e., un-married) priests.
I realize that & believe the discussion was sincere but nonetheless the situation is problematic.

I need to make a clarification here. Apparently there are married Eastern rite priests in America now. From what I understand in 1907 celibacy was enforced by the Vatican in this area but rescinded in 1924; I thought it was still policy & thought I had verified this as fact but I was wrong. Please forgive me on this error since I do not want to spread misinformation.

One thing though, I understand that the Vatican did not permit 2 married priests to be ordained in the Ruthenian church in 1998 in America. This is from another forum I partiicipate in & an Eastern Catholic poster admitted this as a fact. So things can be confusing at times.

Nonethleless, an error is an error & I apologize for any misinformation.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2010, 10:42:13 PM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican.  The priest told me flatly that he didn't have much experience with the RCC and therefore didn't know much about her doctrines, and stances on various issues (I actually had to explain to him things like the difference between mortal and venial sins, the "State of Grace", and so on).  I figure that, as a priest he should have, at least studied something about the RCC in seminary.  Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in?  I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.

Robb, I will make this short and sweet.  The English speaking resources are limited.  But beyond this, that our priests are limited to some degree in their knowledge much of the time.  That does not mean that the faith is lacking.   I would be glad to converse with you about matters that you have.  PM me and we can work on this. 
Logged
militantsparrow
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 628


militantsparrow
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2010, 02:20:42 PM »

My problems with Orthodoxy are the same as I have gone over before on this forum.  "How can the OC be true if its so small, divided, and irrelevant to Western society".  "The RCC is so out there in front of everyone in a leadership position, even many OC Churches admit to taking their lead on modern moral issues (Such as stem cell research, and cloning) From the Vatican. 

This seems like a strange argument. Christ Himself, along with his disciples, was a very small Church. Islam is quite large. Rome has always tried to take a role of leadership, it doesn't necessarily mean it should be.
Logged

"Yeah, the sparrow hath found an house..." -Psalm 84:3
quester
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2012, 01:22:08 PM »

Don't OC priest have to take classes on comparative religions in order to know what Orthodoxy's rivals believe in?  I seem to be better at cathecizing people on a faith which I'm not really sure I completely believe in then at taking instructions on a faith that I want to join.

I'm converting from Evangelicalism and Reformed Protestantism but have had lots of exposure to Catholicism. Although I'm a catechumen, most of the catechizing is simply attending the Liturgy as often as I can. Mostly I have to do it myself. You hear all sorts of contradictory statements from liberal and traditional lay members and on top of that my priest doesn't like catechisms because that's too "rigid" or something (read: too Catholic-like  Roll Eyes). I don't know. At the end of the day it's up to you to decide but at times I really wish it were a more formal process of instruction you go through. It's all just too "laissez faire" to me.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 01:24:58 PM by quester » Logged
quester
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2012, 01:29:19 PM »

If the less-than-faithful among us are a stumbling block, look to the saints. You yourself can become a saint, if you want to (that's generally the point of all this). But you can't judge a doctor's medicine by the patients who refuse to take it, and you can't judge the church by those who don't want to be saints. (And the only ones who are saints don't think they are.)

I know that's in response to someone else... but that was equally inspiring to me, thanks.


BTW, how many trad Orthodox people end up in a state of perpetual loneliness?  Probably about the same number as the trad RC's.
Make friends. Meet people. PROBLEM SOLVED.

LOL, right. If only life were that simple.
Logged
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,971


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2012, 02:11:47 AM »

Western Eurocentrism is a trap to avoid.

The RCC is at "the forefront" of opposition to human cloning and stem cell research? Of all the things...

Is utilizing a deist government to nag the gentiles into legal submission really what Christ's church should be at the forefront of?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 02:34:11 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.151 seconds with 62 queries.