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Author Topic: Demonic possession and Death  (Read 9008 times) Average Rating: 0
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StJohn978
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« on: May 30, 2010, 02:15:59 PM »

I'm really curious to know:


What happens to a persons soul if he dies with a demon, or demon(s) inside his body?


What will happen to someone who has demons inside of his body after death?



Because the Fathers tell us that there are 2 types of demonic possession: one is called sensible, and the other moral.


The demons, or, the devil, dwells sensibly in a man, with with his being he occupies the man's body and tortures body and soul. In other words, the person is possessed in his body.

He (the devil) dwells morally in a man, when he controls the man's reason and will. In other words, the person is possessed in the mind.



What I want to know is...  What happens to a person when has either types (sensible or moral) of demonic possession after he dies?


Do the demons, or demon(s) automatically take the soul down into hades?




This is a very interesting question which I really need answers for.





For information about demonic possession, please listen to the 19th century Russian Saint, Ignatius Brianchaninov's book, On the Prayer of Jesus:

The chapter is called Power to Expel Demons. Its an audiobook: http://www.philokalia.org/Audiobooks/On%20the%20Prayer%20of%20Jesus/03-Power%20to%20Expel%20Demons.mp3




In it, he explains to us all about demonic possession, and he quotes from the Holy Fathers about the subject. St John Chysostom, St Macarios the Great, are some of them, and a great abundance of Holy Scripture.


I quote what he says in the 2nd page of the chapter: ''Let us take us this neglected work so directly concerned with our salvation! Let us do all in our power to expel demons that have entered us through our negligence by the prayer of Jesus It has the property of reviving those deadened by sin, and it has the property of driving out devils.''

Here is a quote from that same chapter by St John Chrysostom:

'The remembrance of the name of Jesus rouses the enemy to battle. For a soul that forces itself to prayer the prayer of Jesus can find anything by this prayer, both good and evil. First, it can see evil in the recessed of its own heart, and afterwards good. This prayer can stir the snake to action, and this prayer can lay it low. This prayer can expose the sin that is living in us, and this prayer can eradicate it. This prayer can stir up in the heart all the power of the enemy, and this prayer can conquer it, and gradually root it out.
The name of the Lord Jesus Christ, as it descends into the depths of the heart, will subdue the snake which controls its ranges, and will save and quicken the soul.
Continue constantly in the name of the Lord Jesus, that the heart may swallow the Lord and the Lord the heart, and that these two may be one. However, this is not accomplished in a single day, nor in two days, but requires many years and much time. Much time and labor are needed, in order to expel the enemy and instate Christ




Does anyone know? Church Father? Saint? Holy Elder? Anyone?

What happens to a demon possessed person after death?


Thank you.


In Christ Jesus.
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 05:09:33 PM »

I am not familiar with the dichotomy you are presenting.  I have a feeling that, based on what I have studied thus far, that this formula might be one of several.  There are no Orthodox textbooks on the topic that I have been able to find.  There was a treatise by St. Basil the Great, but it has been lost for centuries.

As I was taught, demonic activity can be classified this way:

Intrusion - the demons send intrusive thoughts, sometimes called obsessions.  This is common, and most people will experience it during their lifetime.

Oppression - the demons 'latch on' to a person and begin to violently attack through the senses and the mind.  Sometimes demons can 'dwell' in a person without actually possessing them, since possession requires submission.  For example, people can ingest something consecrated to satan, and a demon can be left in the stomach.  It does not necessarily possess the person, but uses this location to launch its assaults on the person until he submits or is exorcized.

Possession - the demons are granted partial or full rights to control the afflicted person.  This can either be done by the victim or someone in spiritual authority over the person (such as a parent).

Demons do not 'physically dwell' in a body, but can act in the area in such a way that it appears so.  Full possession is extremely rare.  Even experienced exorcists speak of cases by the dozens rather than hundreds.

The Church has prayers, primarily Sts. Basil and John Chrysostom that are well worth studying, since they lay out both the manner of entry and the path to freedom in Christ.

The prayers do not mention either of your questions, and that is because a demon cannot interfere with the relationship between God and man.  If the person wants to be possessed, then chances are he will want to go to hell and be with the demons.  There are people like that.  However, if a person is afflicted by demons and dies, then he will pass through ghte same process of death that we all go through.
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StJohn978
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2010, 06:09:40 PM »

I am not familiar with the dichotomy you are presenting.  I have a feeling that, based on what I have studied thus far, that this formula might be one of several.  There are no Orthodox textbooks on the topic that I have been able to find.  There was a treatise by St. Basil the Great, but it has been lost for centuries.


If you would take 18 minutes to listen to the chapter of the audiobook I linked above, you would understand almost everything that there is to know about demonic possession.

The chapter is called 'Power to Expel Demons' and in the chapter, the blessed saint basically tells us (through the solid proof of the Holy Fathers, St Macarios the Great, mainly) That anyone who is impure has a demon(and who can say they are pure?) - this is what is explained by St Macarios the Great.


I will quote what St Macarios says in the book:


From St Ignatius Brianchaninov's book, On the Prayer of Jesus
 Ch 4 'Power to expel demons'.  

''Evidently here is described that activity of which St. Macarius the Great and to which he invites people in his First Word with a clear indication as to the weapon of that warfare:
'Force your way in, whoever you are, through the thoughts that incessantly rise up within you, to that prisoner of war and slave of sin -- your soul -- and look to the very bottom of your thoughts, and you will see nestling and creeping in the inner recesses of your soul the snake (dragon) which killed you by poisoning the vital parts of your soul. The heart is an unfathomable abyss. If you kill that snake, glory in your purity before God. But if not, humble yourself as one who if weak and sinful, and pray to God for deliverance from your secret sins'
St Macarius the Great, word 1, Ch. 1 (not from Homilies)


So St Macarios the Great is stating that anyone who is impure, has a demon. (but who is pure?)



And St Brianchaninov tells us that this is a very important matter.




Listen to the entire chapter attentively, do not overlook what the blessed saint has to say:

This is the audiobook (its hard to believe that a professional has recorded this book on audio)

http://www.philokalia.org/on_the_prayer_of_jesus.htm

Its in Chapter 4 - Power to Expel Demons




Anyway, if you want to read more about this subject, please read the messages I posted on this thread:

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?7171-Noetic-prayer

My name is Mikhail Kolitwenzew.

I have posted more things on there reguarding demonic possession from the Holy Fathers.

This is one of them I posted:


Quote
From http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?7171-Noetic-prayer

Quote from Mikhail Kolitwenzew( aka StJohn978)

If you have St Theophlact of Bulgaria's Explaination of the Gospel of St Matthew, he will tell you what this means.

Here is what St Theophlact says about these verses, I quote from his Explanation of the Gospel of St Matthew: verses 43-45:

Matthew 12:43

43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

'You, O reader, must also understand this, the unclean spirit is cast out by baptism and goes forth among waterless and unbaptized souls; but it does not find rest in them. Rest for the demons is to harass with evil deeds those who are not baptized, for they already possess those who are unbaptized. For just as there are seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, so, on the contrary, there are seven spirits of evil. When the demon re-enters the one who is baptized, the disaster is worse. For, previously, there was hope of being cleansed through baptism. But now there is no hope of a second baptism, unless it be by baptism of repentance, which is exceedingly toilsome.'


But please listen to that audiobook chapter ... Not to mention the entire book as well. It is absolutely indispensable.

That book explains so much important stuff in such a small amount of ink.


BTW the demons do dwell inside of the body of a person... Listen to what the wise and blessed man, St Ignatius Brianchaninov says.


In Christ.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 06:27:02 PM by StJohn978 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2010, 07:04:21 PM »

StJohn978,

I'm not sure I understand why you started this thread.  Do you want to know something from us, or do you want us to know something from you?  You ask us for information on what the Fathers say about demon possession, yet in your next post you tell us that a particular book will tell us everything we need to know about demon possession and you boast about some of the stuff you've written about the subject on other discussion forums.  So I would really like to know:  Do you sincerely want to receive what we have to say in answer to your questions, or did you post your initial questions as a mere pretext to catch our attention so you could then preach to us?
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StJohn978
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2010, 08:56:36 PM »

StJohn978,

I'm not sure I understand why you started this thread.  Do you want to know something from us, or do you want us to know something from you?  You ask us for information on what the Fathers say about demon possession, yet in your next post you tell us that a particular book will tell us everything we need to know about demon possession and you boast about some of the stuff you've written about the subject on other discussion forums.  So I would really like to know:  Do you sincerely want to receive what we have to say in answer to your questions, or did you post your initial questions as a mere pretext to catch our attention so you could then preach to us?


My apologies, I was trying to inform Fr Giyrus on what I already knew about demonic possession, because it seemed that there were things which were overlooked.

I was just trying to tell him about what he overlooked, and also inform him even more about demonic possession.


I am sorry, I guess I missed the topic a bit.


I just want to know what people know about the subject matter, because I myself have been experiencing some kind of demonic possession. The demons do, in fact, enter into our bodies. And thanks to my serious drug abuse and drug addiction, I have led them into my own body.

Fr Giryus overlooked what I had posted, because according to St Brianchaninov and his book - On The Prayer of Jesus, the demons do enter into our bodies... That is one of the reasons why I posted the way I did.


And St Brianchaninov treats the subject of demonic possession as something fairly common, and not a rare phenomenon.

Listen to this chapter of his audiobook and realize what I am saying: http://www.philokalia.org/Audiobooks/On%20the%20Prayer%20of%20Jesus/03-Power%20to%20Expel%20Demons.mp3

Listen to it. He is right when he quotes St Macarios:

''Evidently here is described that activity of which St. Macarius the Great and to which he invites people in his First Word with a clear indication as to the weapon of that warfare:
'Force your way in, whoever you are, through the thoughts that incessantly rise up within you, to that prisoner of war and slave of sin -- your soul -- and look to the very bottom of your thoughts, and you will see nestling and creeping in the inner recesses of your soul the snake (dragon) which killed you by poisoning the vital parts of your soul. The heart is an unfathomable abyss. If you kill that snake, glory in your purity before God. But if not, humble yourself as one who if weak and sinful, and pray to God for deliverance from your secret sins[/b]'
St Macarius the Great, word 1, Ch. 1 (not from Homilies)


You REALLY CAN see the serpent in the bottom of your thoughts, if you practice the prayer of Jesus in the night with closed eyes(in the manner according to St John of the Ladder in the audiobook) and you 'look to the very botton of your thoughts' All I know is that I DID see a serpent... A horrible figure inside of my mind. I saw the serpent.

St Macarios the Great states something which is absolutely unimaginable, But according to my own experience, it is absolutely true.


Just listen to the audiobook chapter.




I apologize for going off the topic.


I really would like it if someone would answer this question with some testimony from a saint or elder.



Fr Giyrus is likely correct, A possessed person probably does go to hell... Thanks Giyrus.
But where did you learn all of this about demonic possession?.. Was it St Poemen the great... who was it?
I have very good reason to believe that you are Get_Behind_Me_Satan, Walk_In_Truth, DeathToTheWorld, and I_Hate_Satan returned yet again under yet another username--your IP address, some of the things you said about yourself, and the content and style of your posts are all a dead giveaway.  You are therefore on indefinite post moderation pending a review of your record.

- PeterTheAleut
 Another duplicate account.

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FatherGiryus
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 01:02:56 AM »


My apologies, I was trying to inform Fr Giyrus on what I already knew about demonic possession, because it seemed that there were things which were overlooked.

Until there is a universal teaching on a topic, saints are allowed to have personal opinions that are ideed personal opinions.  Not all saints agree on all topics.

For example, most folks would not agree with St. Ignatii that 'aerial toll houses' are visible: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27699.msg438226.html#msg438226

At any rate, I suppose I could make posts teaching all sorts of things, but I generally start a thread to ask a question, not start a lecturing opportunity.  I think you were a bit dishonest there, as it seems you know all the answers.

By the way, I did not say that the possessed automatically go to hell, but rather those that voluntarily submit themselves are likely candidates.

Based on the teachings of St. Mark Eugenikos, I stand by my earlier assertion that the spiritual world does not have corresponding locations to the material, thus a human person can be 'possessed' but it is not really a direct form of physical occupation, but rather a capability of control.

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StJohn978
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 11:32:41 AM »


My apologies, I was trying to inform Fr Giyrus on what I already knew about demonic possession, because it seemed that there were things which were overlooked.

Until there is a universal teaching on a topic, saints are allowed to have personal opinions that are ideed personal opinions.  Not all saints agree on all topics.

For example, most folks would not agree with St. Ignatii that 'aerial toll houses' are visible: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27699.msg438226.html#msg438226

At any rate, I suppose I could make posts teaching all sorts of things, but I generally start a thread to ask a question, not start a lecturing opportunity.  I think you were a bit dishonest there, as it seems you know all the answers.

By the way, I did not say that the possessed automatically go to hell, but rather those that voluntarily submit themselves are likely candidates.

Based on the teachings of St. Mark Eugenikos, I stand by my earlier assertion that the spiritual world does not have corresponding locations to the material, thus a human person can be 'possessed' but it is not really a direct form of physical occupation, but rather a capability of control.




Thank you... I'm becoming exceedingly arrogant without a spiritual father to help me. Plus with all of these books i'm reading... living alone is truly perilous.

As St Dorotheos says, 'No one is more wretched, no one is more vulnerable than the person who has no one to direct his path to God.' and, 'He becomes a tool of his enemies, who do whatever they want with him.' 'What does it say? ''Where there is no guidance they fall like leaves(proverbs)''




Yes, I have heard that St Ignatius Brianchaninov believes that the demons are connected with the air, and thus they possess a sort of materiality.


Yes, thank you, I admit I was acting foolishly and impiously. As St Abba Moses said, ''Not to consider oneself important with knowledge, is to consider that he is nothing''



I think I agree with St Ignatius though, I think the demons really do possess some sort of materiality.

Even St Basil the great, when speaking about the existence of evil passions, said that they exist because they are 'connected with the air' I will find the quote for you, I just need to search a bit for it. He said it though.



But anyway, I was reading in book 'Orthodox Psychotherapy' about how the soul and the body are interconnected, and I say that this is the reason why people can be possessed in their bodies. Because, then its a possession of soul and body, because the two cannot be separated from one another. If a demon possesses the body, he also possesses the soul, and if he possesses the soul, he also possesses the body as well.


So you are saying that the demons act on the body, but they don't 'inhabit' the actual being?
St Eugenikos says this? Interesting.



I have proof though, that the demons do , in fact enter into our bodies, read what St John Cassian has to say about this... His conference speak much about the subject of demons:

http://www.osb.org/lectio/cassian/conf/book1/conf7.html#7.24

CHAPTER XXIV.
Of the way in which the devils prepare for themselves an entrance into the bodies of those whom they are going to possess.


''IT is clear then that unclean spirits cannot make their way into those whose bodies they are going to seize upon, in any other way than by first taking possession of their minds and thoughts. And when they have robbed them of fear and the recollection of God and spiritual meditation, they boldly advance upon them, as if they were dispossessed of all protection and Divine safeguard, and could easily be bound, and then take up their dwelling in them as if in a possession given over to them.''



Interesting.
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 08:12:50 PM »

Read carefully.  Twice in the same passage, the term 'as if' has been translated.  He's speaking figuratively.  If you stick a needle in a possessed person, you won't poke the demon.  There is not that type of physical presence.  That is what I was trying to emphasize.  Demon's do not physically dwell, but they do manifest 'as if' they dwell.  In fact, it is not uncommon for demons to be 'vomited' out during exorcisms, though no physical matter is seen, the person reports feeling the sensation of an object coming out.   




<snip>
http://www.osb.org/lectio/cassian/conf/book1/conf7.html#7.24

CHAPTER XXIV.
Of the way in which the devils prepare for themselves an entrance into the bodies of those whom they are going to possess.


''IT is clear then that unclean spirits cannot make their way into those whose bodies they are going to seize upon, in any other way than by first taking possession of their minds and thoughts. And when they have robbed them of fear and the recollection of God and spiritual meditation, they boldly advance upon them, as if they were dispossessed of all protection and Divine safeguard, and could easily be bound, and then take up their dwelling in them as if in a possession given over to them.''



Interesting.

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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2011, 10:10:33 PM »

Autistic and insane people act abnormally and not of their own will.
Are autism or insanity forms of demonic possession
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2011, 10:49:21 PM »

Christ threw out literal demons that actually were inside a person, and sent them into a heard of pigs..So how can it be said, that demon's possess a person in ever other way, but very rarely by inhabiting them....Even the Apostle's evicted demons that dwelled in people......What has Changed that they can't inhabit who they want too anymore... Huh
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