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Author Topic: alternatives to "so-called Diaspora"?  (Read 1462 times) Average Rating: 0
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Eugenio
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« on: May 26, 2010, 04:30:20 PM »

I read the recent address by His Eminence, Archbishop Demetrios, who is serving as chairman of the Episcopal Assembly of North and Central America.

http://www.goarch.org/news/addressassembly

I was particularly pleased that he acknowledged what a loaded term the word "diaspora" is:

"The word “Diaspora” is not being used in any pejorative sense; rather it is merely a description of places where no single Autonomous or Autocephalous Church governs all the Orthodox who live therein. In fact, the Message of the Primates, included in your folders, uses the expression, “so-called Diaspora.” I am aware that some of us take offense at the word, but I ask that you apply your understanding to the bigger picture, and that we try to find a word better than the “so-called Diaspora” to describe our situation."

I'm grateful that His Eminence has pointed out that to folks like myself, whose ancestors have lived in North America for the past five generations or so before we converted to Holy Orthodoxy, the notion that we're living in a diaspora is shocking and inaccurate, to say the least.

So if we wish to cease using the word "diaspora" to refer to those places outside historically Orthodox Christian nations, how should we refer to them? I've thought up some acronyms, but all of them are clunky and don't roll off the tongue very well. Some I've thought of were:

OOHOL (Orthodox Outside Historically Orthodox Lands)

OCRITHN (Orthodox Christians Residing in The Heterodox Nations)

or even...

OCLIPINOC (Orthodox Christians Living in Places in Need of Conversion)  Grin

Does anyone have something more...pronouncable?  laugh


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scamandrius
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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2010, 04:58:58 PM »

How about the American Orthodox Church (AOC) and just get rid of any notion that we are somehow subordinate to the Patriarchates abroad and ought and should be an autocephalous organization?

The other titles you suggest do nothing except reduce Orthodoxy here in America to a status which is still dependent on overseas.

OOHOL--So 200 years isn't historical enough?
OCRITHN--A lot of "traditionally" Orthodox countries are just as ravaged by Heterodox, Schismatics, Heretics and Atheists as we are here in the US.  Just because a country is historically Orthodox does not mean it is independent of the above.
OCLIPNOC--See point made above.

Or maybe your whole post is tongue in cheek which I really failed to pick up on. Cheesy
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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2010, 05:02:10 PM »

Or maybe your whole post is tongue in cheek which I really failed to pick up on. Cheesy

This is the only way to accurately pronounce some of the OP's suggestions.
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Eugenio
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« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2010, 05:06:29 PM »

Glashnqtpna baprnpaghdi bsbaj

Sorry that was garbled. I had my tongue in my cheek.  Grin
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ialmisry
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2010, 05:10:13 PM »

I read the recent address by His Eminence, Archbishop Demetrios, who is serving as chairman of the Episcopal Assembly of North and Central America.

http://www.goarch.org/news/addressassembly

I was particularly pleased that he acknowledged what a loaded term the word "diaspora" is:

"The word “Diaspora” is not being used in any pejorative sense; rather it is merely a description of places where no single Autonomous or Autocephalous Church governs all the Orthodox who live therein. In fact, the Message of the Primates, included in your folders, uses the expression, “so-called Diaspora.” I am aware that some of us take offense at the word, but I ask that you apply your understanding to the bigger picture, and that we try to find a word better than the “so-called Diaspora” to describe our situation."

I'm grateful that His Eminence has pointed out that to folks like myself, whose ancestors have lived in North America for the past five generations or so before we converted to Holy Orthodoxy, the notion that we're living in a diaspora is shocking and inaccurate, to say the least.

So if we wish to cease using the word "diaspora" to refer to those places outside historically Orthodox Christian nations, how should we refer to them? I've thought up some acronyms, but all of them are clunky and don't roll off the tongue very well. Some I've thought of were:

OOHOL (Orthodox Outside Historically Orthodox Lands)

OCRITHN (Orthodox Christians Residing in The Heterodox Nations)

or even...

OCLIPINOC (Orthodox Christians Living in Places in Need of Conversion)  Grin

Does anyone have something more...pronouncable?  laugh
LOOBCAC (Lands of Orthodoxy by Choice and Conviction)

Good speech, btw.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 05:10:34 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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Robert W
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2010, 05:21:02 PM »

"Barbarian lands"
*ducks*
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Eugenio
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2010, 05:28:32 PM »

For Robert W:
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2010, 05:43:53 PM »

^^

Conanland?
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Tamara
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2010, 06:22:40 PM »

How about the American Orthodox Church (AOC) and just get rid of any notion that we are somehow subordinate to the Patriarchates abroad and ought and should be an autocephalous organization?

The other titles you suggest do nothing except reduce Orthodoxy here in America to a status which is still dependent on overseas.

OOHOL--So 200 years isn't historical enough?
OCRITHN--A lot of "traditionally" Orthodox countries are just as ravaged by Heterodox, Schismatics, Heretics and Atheists as we are here in the US.  Just because a country is historically Orthodox does not mean it is independent of the above.
OCLIPNOC--See point made above.

Or maybe your whole post is tongue in cheek which I really failed to pick up on. Cheesy

Great points...
And some of the "so-called" mother churches have less Orthodox Christians residing within their borders than we have here.

How about Orthodox Christians living in freedom or OCLIF
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Robert W
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 02:42:12 AM »

Eugenio, I was thinking of all of Asia, western Europe and the Americas. Not just California.  Cheesy


Great points...
And some of the "so-called" mother churches have less Orthodox Christians residing within their borders than we have here.

Don't you think saying "so-called" about the mother Church to be equally offensive as the phrase diaspora? None of us are Christians because of our own greatness, we have all had teachers and mothers.

How about Orthodox Christians living in freedom or OCLIF
Unfortunately I would not call all of Asia, and perhaps Southern America, free.  Cheesy I know you were thinking of Northern America, I'm misunderstanding you on purpose. Wink

But seriously I applaud the bishops who wishes to replace the term Diaspora. I'm having a hard time though, thinking up something that would work for both the US and China (and all the rest).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 02:43:41 AM by Robert W » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2010, 09:17:51 AM »

How about simply Orthodox and leave all of the politics to those who value power over faith.  Since every Bishop has equal Grace from God in his office, and all Orthodox Christians are in communion with each other, there is already unity in the Body of Christ.  All this administrative squabbling is NOT the work of God and is simply the pride and greed of man.  When men who respect and love each other come together for a common cause, they work with each other in love and humility, not each one fighting to see who can be in charge.  I have seen this often in the pagan world of my work, working on committees where there is mutual respect and each person listening and providing input with a common goal.  Perhaps one day I will see it in the "so called" Church.
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2010, 09:43:16 AM »

Eugenio, I was thinking of all of Asia, western Europe and the Americas. Not just California.  Cheesy


Great points...
And some of the "so-called" mother churches have less Orthodox Christians residing within their borders than we have here.
Don't you think saying "so-called" about the mother Church to be equally offensive as the phrase diaspora? None of us are Christians because of our own greatness, we have all had teachers and mothers.


yes, it is offensive. My point was to show how offensive the diaspora term sounds when you use it to describe the mother churches.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 09:45:57 AM by Tamara » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2010, 10:57:55 AM »

Eugenio, I was thinking of all of Asia, western Europe and the Americas. Not just California.  Cheesy


Great points...
And some of the "so-called" mother churches have less Orthodox Christians residing within their borders than we have here.

Don't you think saying "so-called" about the mother Church to be equally offensive as the phrase diaspora? None of us are Christians because of our own greatness, we have all had teachers and mothers.

How about Orthodox Christians living in freedom or OCLIF
Unfortunately I would not call all of Asia, and perhaps Southern America, free.  Cheesy I know you were thinking of Northern America, I'm misunderstanding you on purpose. Wink

But seriously I applaud the bishops who wishes to replace the term Diaspora. I'm having a hard time though, thinking up something that would work for both the US and China (and all the rest).
I'm not sure a term is needed, as it perpetuates a mentality and philosophy of autocephaly I believe at odds with Orthodoxy.

To quote Fr. John Erickson (revised) essay, issued around the time of autocephaly of the OCA:
Quote
“…To put matters in simplest terms, according to the Russian Church, any autocephalous Church has the right to grant canonical independence to one of its parts. According to Cosntantinople, on the other hand, only an ecumenical coucil can definitely establish an autocephalous Church, and any interim arrangements depend upon approbation of Constantinople, acting in its capacity as the ‘mother church” and “first among equals.”
Chapter 7, p. 91.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XgRrh2M08p0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=John+Erickson+Autocephaly&source=bl&ots=vyPbXV1N7g&sig=puFyHCBZ7dbXPjbRGyCYGUdTI8w&hl=en&ei=FKb2S5miLpDuMrHWoJoF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

To this divide I will add the view of autocephaly as normal, as opposed to abnormal.  The Phanar takes the latter position, and OzGeorge has advocated it:
Well, a Mod created this thread from  the Decision of the Holy Synod of Antioch thread because some people were asserting that autocephaly may be rescinded by the Mother Church.
No. This thread already existed.
Look at the date on the OP of this thread, and then read all the arguments that have already been made before asking the same questions they answer.

My point was I know of no canons on granting the status to begin with and, hence, to expect canons on rescinding it are unrealistic.

So you would agree that the assertion which caused this thread -that Mother Churches may rescind autocephaly- is misleading?
Why would that make it misleading? The status of autocephaly was created by the Church and can be rescinded by the Church. Autocephaly is not a Mysterion like Baptism, Chrisimation or Holy Orders which are inextinguishable, Autocephaly is not a Divine Right, it is not even a Gospel ideal- it's a failure. Its a compromise to schism for the sake of unity.

I, and others, see it as the norm: it is the norm that a land be evangelized, converted, its Church founded and then matured where it goes forth to make disciples of other nations, evangelizing, converting, founding Churches.....  The latter view resembles the natural expectation that children will follow the Scriptural command to leave their father and mother and cleave to their spouse to found a new family.  The former resembles parents who keep their children in perpetual childhood, refusing to recognize when they have grown and trying to prevent maturity. That's a failure of parenting, to the detriment of all concerned. As we say in Egypt "Raise your son, and then treat him like a brother."

The time must come when the bishops of the "diaspora" have to stop hanging on the apron strings of "Mother Church," and be married to their see where their acutal presence with their Faithful manifest the Orthodox Church. (Btw, I am told that this is why Moscow is not actively advocating the OCA cause. The OCA must fight its own battles, and Met. Jonah has made plain it will).
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2010, 11:06:17 AM »

I'm not sure a term is needed, as it perpetuates a mentality and philosophy of autocephaly I believe at odds with Orthodoxy.
I do agree with you on this. We can really do without so much labelling in Orthodoxy. I'm already on record about my views concerning cradle vs convert Orthodox. Let me ask, is there a term for the "non-Diaspora" Orthodox? We're either Orthodox, or we're not. What else is needed?
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