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Author Topic: Which jurisdictions are supposed to be united?  (Read 2514 times) Average Rating: 0
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bob
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« on: May 25, 2010, 03:43:49 PM »

I assume the goal is the Scoba members including Rocor to be united?  Is that accurate?

How about the OO churches?  The old calenderists?  A number of other churches listed on wikipedia that claim to be orthodox?  Can't I start my own church and call it orthodox?

So there will never be complete unity will there?  Or will it still be united if some churches are not part of this unity?  What if all the churches join the EP/GOA, except the OCA, would that be unity?  What if all the churches join the OCA, except the GOA, would that be unity?  I really am interested in the previous question and what people think.  Is it acceptable to have 2 separate orthodox churches, one being the OCA and one the GOA?  Again, since we will never have complete unity, the OCA can pretend that the GOA is like the OO churches right?

I'm just trying to understand the whole issue of unity, which just seems like one big waste of energy and resources (like the meetings this week).  Frankly, it seems to me that "unity" is a way for the OCA-types to take over the GOA and their resources.  It's really amusing that you guys don't see that it will never happen like that.  I know people are going to reply that "unity" is a way for the EP to take over all the American churches, and I'm sure that is what the EP wants.  But my comment is about unity supporters in America and what it seems their goal is.

For example, most unity supporters seem to think a positive of unity is speaking with one voice.  While I agree, it seems that unity supporters think this voice will be this right-wing-American-WASPish voice that most unity supporters seem to possess.  Do you guys think all the ethnic liberals (that will still pay for most of the churches activities) will just disappear (because when they do, so will the church)?

Why do you think the minority will decide what this one voice will be?  Now I realize some of you fantasize that 50-million right-wing American WASPs will join this non-ethnic Orthodox Church, the truth is while 99% of converts so far seem to fit that description, for the OC to grow in the future, most converts will be much more to the left.  It will be WASPs who instead of becoming Buddhists will join the OC.


On some blog somewhere I read the OCA should declare it's autocephaly and announce it is the "official church of Orthodoxy in America brought to you by FOX News" (ok, I added the Fake News part).  Just wondering but why doesn't it to that?  And more importantly, what would change?  Why doesn't the OCA just focus on that instead of worrying what the GOA does.

I've never understood why people join something by choice and then try to change it to something that already exists.  For example, GOA members who whine about "too much Greek", why not just go join the OCA, problem solved.  (I can't wait for the first person to say there aren't enough OCA people in their area - the irony completely going over their head).


With regards to unity, since this American pope is supposed to rule Canada if not the entire Americas, why stop there?  Why not have world wide unity and have 1 leader?

Also, I see comments on other websites and people who seem against the "ethnic" part of the GOA in particular, have Greek names.  I assume some of you must be here, so if those are your real names, why not change them to an American name?  Aren't you guys embarrassed by your foreign ethnic names?


Sorry for jumping all over the place, but being Canadian this issue has never been at the forefront up here and on a personal level, this is a pretty new issue for me.  I see many more negatives than positives in this so called unity.  Can somebody explain to me the positives both on a local level and a national level?  I would like specific examples of how unity will help.  I'm sure some of you are tired of doing that, but I would really appreciate it.

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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2010, 03:56:55 PM »

"bob" wrote:

"Frankly, it seems to me that "unity" is a way for the OCA-types to take over the GOA and their resources."

LOL! Riiight. As if.  laugh

The GOAA vastly outnumbers the OCA in terms of churches, parishioners, money and resources. The only area where the OCA outnumbers the GOAA is in its number of seminaries: The OCA has 3 (plus another in Canada IIRC), whereas the GOAA only has one, Holy Cross.

No one in the OCA is seriously advocating that they "take over" the GOAA. That would be like the guppy trying to swallow the beluga whale.  Cheesy
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2010, 04:02:31 PM »

I also have yet to hear anyone propose "an American pope" ruling over the Americas.

Go to Chicago, where as I understand there are 17 different Orthodox bishops who claim jurisdiction there. Do you not see what an irregular hodgepodge this is?

No proponents of unity are proposing Borg-like assimilation or cultural suppression. Greek people will not need to drop "-os" from their last names.

Rather, by basing Orthodox dioceses on geography, rather than ethnicity, people can be closer to their bishops. And they can use the money they are now spending on overlapping administrative costs to other causes, such as evangelizing the US.

But Bob, since your mind is already made up on the matter, why did you ask the question in the first place?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2010, 04:03:25 PM »

I assume the goal is the Scoba members including Rocor to be united?  Is that accurate?

How about the OO churches?  The old calenderists?  A number of other churches listed on wikipedia that claim to be orthodox?  Can't I start my own church and call it orthodox?

So there will never be complete unity will there?  Or will it still be united if some churches are not part of this unity?  What if all the churches join the EP/GOA, except the OCA, would that be unity?  What if all the churches join the OCA, except the GOA, would that be unity?  I really am interested in the previous question and what people think.  Is it acceptable to have 2 separate orthodox churches, one being the OCA and one the GOA?  Again, since we will never have complete unity, the OCA can pretend that the GOA is like the OO churches right?

I'm just trying to understand the whole issue of unity, which just seems like one big waste of energy and resources (like the meetings this week).  Frankly, it seems to me that "unity" is a way for the OCA-types to take over the GOA and their resources.  It's really amusing that you guys don't see that it will never happen like that.  I know people are going to reply that "unity" is a way for the EP to take over all the American churches, and I'm sure that is what the EP wants.  But my comment is about unity supporters in America and what it seems their goal is.

For example, most unity supporters seem to think a positive of unity is speaking with one voice.  While I agree, it seems that unity supporters think this voice will be this right-wing-American-WASPish voice that most unity supporters seem to possess.  Do you guys think all the ethnic liberals (that will still pay for most of the churches activities) will just disappear (because when they do, so will the church)?

Why do you think the minority will decide what this one voice will be?  Now I realize some of you fantasize that 50-million right-wing American WASPs will join this non-ethnic Orthodox Church, the truth is while 99% of converts so far seem to fit that description, for the OC to grow in the future, most converts will be much more to the left.  It will be WASPs who instead of becoming Buddhists will join the OC.


On some blog somewhere I read the OCA should declare it's autocephaly and announce it is the "official church of Orthodoxy in America brought to you by FOX News" (ok, I added the Fake News part).  Just wondering but why doesn't it to that?  And more importantly, what would change?  Why doesn't the OCA just focus on that instead of worrying what the GOA does.

I've never understood why people join something by choice and then try to change it to something that already exists.  For example, GOA members who whine about "too much Greek", why not just go join the OCA, problem solved.  (I can't wait for the first person to say there aren't enough OCA people in their area - the irony completely going over their head).


With regards to unity, since this American pope is supposed to rule Canada if not the entire Americas, why stop there?  Why not have world wide unity and have 1 leader?

Also, I see comments on other websites and people who seem against the "ethnic" part of the GOA in particular, have Greek names.  I assume some of you must be here, so if those are your real names, why not change them to an American name?  Aren't you guys embarrassed by your foreign ethnic names?


Sorry for jumping all over the place, but being Canadian this issue has never been at the forefront up here and on a personal level, this is a pretty new issue for me.  I see many more negatives than positives in this so called unity.  Can somebody explain to me the positives both on a local level and a national level?  I would like specific examples of how unity will help.  I'm sure some of you are tired of doing that, but I would really appreciate it.




Are you seriously referring to Met. JONAH as an "American pope"Huh
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2010, 04:11:29 PM »

I assume the goal is the Scoba members including Rocor to be united?  Is that accurate?

How about the OO churches?  The old calenderists?  A number of other churches listed on wikipedia that claim to be orthodox?  Can't I start my own church and call it orthodox?

So there will never be complete unity will there?  Or will it still be united if some churches are not part of this unity?  What if all the churches join the EP/GOA, except the OCA, would that be unity?  What if all the churches join the OCA, except the GOA, would that be unity?  I really am interested in the previous question and what people think.  Is it acceptable to have 2 separate orthodox churches, one being the OCA and one the GOA?  Again, since we will never have complete unity, the OCA can pretend that the GOA is like the OO churches right?

I'm just trying to understand the whole issue of unity, which just seems like one big waste of energy and resources (like the meetings this week).  Frankly, it seems to me that "unity" is a way for the OCA-types to take over the GOA and their resources.  It's really amusing that you guys don't see that it will never happen like that.  I know people are going to reply that "unity" is a way for the EP to take over all the American churches, and I'm sure that is what the EP wants.  But my comment is about unity supporters in America and what it seems their goal is.

For example, most unity supporters seem to think a positive of unity is speaking with one voice.  While I agree, it seems that unity supporters think this voice will be this right-wing-American-WASPish voice that most unity supporters seem to possess.  Do you guys think all the ethnic liberals (that will still pay for most of the churches activities) will just disappear (because when they do, so will the church)?

Why do you think the minority will decide what this one voice will be?  Now I realize some of you fantasize that 50-million right-wing American WASPs will join this non-ethnic Orthodox Church, the truth is while 99% of converts so far seem to fit that description, for the OC to grow in the future, most converts will be much more to the left.  It will be WASPs who instead of becoming Buddhists will join the OC.


On some blog somewhere I read the OCA should declare it's autocephaly and announce it is the "official church of Orthodoxy in America brought to you by FOX News" (ok, I added the Fake News part).  Just wondering but why doesn't it to that?  And more importantly, what would change?  Why doesn't the OCA just focus on that instead of worrying what the GOA does.

I've never understood why people join something by choice and then try to change it to something that already exists.  For example, GOA members who whine about "too much Greek", why not just go join the OCA, problem solved.  (I can't wait for the first person to say there aren't enough OCA people in their area - the irony completely going over their head).


With regards to unity, since this American pope is supposed to rule Canada if not the entire Americas, why stop there?  Why not have world wide unity and have 1 leader?

Also, I see comments on other websites and people who seem against the "ethnic" part of the GOA in particular, have Greek names.  I assume some of you must be here, so if those are your real names, why not change them to an American name?  Aren't you guys embarrassed by your foreign ethnic names?


Sorry for jumping all over the place, but being Canadian this issue has never been at the forefront up here and on a personal level, this is a pretty new issue for me.  I see many more negatives than positives in this so called unity.  Can somebody explain to me the positives both on a local level and a national level?  I would like specific examples of how unity will help.  I'm sure some of you are tired of doing that, but I would really appreciate it.


I'd have to know where you are coming to make any intelligent reply.  You seem to 1) think the Church is a human instiution. It's a divine institution with humans in it, 2) that the One and Catholic part is somehow less important than Holy or Apostolic.
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2010, 04:14:03 PM »

I also have yet to hear anyone propose "an American pope" ruling over the Americas.

Go to Chicago, where as I understand there are 17 different Orthodox bishops who claim jurisdiction there. Do you not see what an irregular hodgepodge this is?

Not that bad: last time I counted them it was 6.

Quote
No proponents of unity are proposing Borg-like assimilation or cultural suppression. Greek people will not need to drop "-os" from their last names
.

They're Methodists (like the gov of FL) anyways.

Quote
Rather, by basing Orthodox dioceses on geography, rather than ethnicity, people can be closer to their bishops. And they can use the money they are now spending on overlapping administrative costs to other causes, such as evangelizing the US.


Perish the thought! Shocked

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But Bob, since your mind is already made up on the matter, why did you ask the question in the first place?  Roll Eyes
What was the question?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 04:14:22 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2010, 04:16:27 PM »

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You seem to 1) think the Church is a human instiution. It's a divine institution with humans in it

It's both, actually, thus the usage of the term theanthropic to describe it...
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2010, 06:41:34 PM »

Go to Chicago, where as I understand there are 17 different Orthodox bishops who claim jurisdiction there. Do you not see what an irregular hodgepodge this is?

But as my original question asks about jurisdictions and which are supposed to be united, even after unity, instead of 17 bishops wouldn't there still be 12 different Orthodox bishops in Chicago who claim jurisdiction (OO, old calendar, others, etc.)?


Rather, by basing Orthodox dioceses on geography, rather than ethnicity, people can be closer to their bishops. And they can use the money they are now spending on overlapping administrative costs to other causes, such as evangelizing the US.

But the ethnics who only donate to the church because they want to see the language school or the soccer team or the dance group, will NOT give money to a non-ethnic orthodox church.  This is something some of you do not seem to want to understand.  The ethnics will give this money directly to language schools/soccer teams/dance groups, and NOT the church.  So there will be a lot less money coming in.


But Bob, since your mind is already made up on the matter, why did you ask the question in the first place?  Roll Eyes

My original question was about the various jurisdictions and who would be united and how about the rest.  Then my post just kept expanding.  While, I am pretty convinced that "unity" will lead to civil war in the OC with no winners in the end, like I said, this is a new issue to me and I want to understand the reasoning of those who think that unity will be a positive.  I am willing to change my mind if somebody can convince me unity will be good.

On the other hand, if it was just a bunch of keyboard cowboys discussing this issue, it could be easily ignored.  But this issue obviously has legs with the sham that's happening in NYC this week.  So if none of you can change my mind, maybe I can show some of you how us "ethnics" view this issue and that it has great potential in being a complete disaster.




"bob" wrote:

"Frankly, it seems to me that "unity" is a way for the OCA-types to take over the GOA and their resources."

LOL! Riiight. As if.  laugh

The GOAA vastly outnumbers the OCA in terms of churches, parishioners, money and resources. The only area where the OCA outnumbers the GOAA is in its number of seminaries: The OCA has 3 (plus another in Canada IIRC), whereas the GOAA only has one, Holy Cross.

No one in the OCA is seriously advocating that they "take over" the GOAA. That would be like the guppy trying to swallow the beluga whale.  Cheesy

I don't mean literally take over, but from an idealogical stand point.  Meaning from issues like abortion (will you not demand they stop supporting politicians who support abortion?) to homosexuality or stem cell research, to canceling ethnic language schools and dance groups, to issues like what language the liturgy should be in or confession, etc.



   
With regards to unity, since this American pope is supposed to rule Canada if not the entire Americas, why stop there?  Why not have world wide unity and have 1 leader?
     Are you seriously referring to Met. JONAH as an "American pope"Huh

No and it's not about Met. JONAH specifically.  My point is that people complain about the EP and being subjected to a foreign ruler, yet under all unity plans, Canada is supposed to be subjected to a foreign ruler in the US?  Also, since people want unity, why should it be based on 21st century political boundaries?  Why not just 1 world wide unified church with 1 leader?


  I'd have to know where you are coming to make any intelligent reply.  You seem to 1) think the Church is a human instiution. It's a divine institution with humans in it, 2) that the One and Catholic part is somehow less important than Holy or Apostolic.

I fail to see how where I'm coming from makes a difference to your answer.  Anyway, I'm Canadian, cradle Orthodox, I always thought the reason the church existed was to teach us ethnic dances and to meet a nice ethnic girl.  Grin

Like I said, this unity issue is not a big issue up here.  Unfortunately anything that happens down there affects us up here.  I've never paid attention to the administrative side of things so this is all new to me.  As for the "One and Catholic" part, again, wouldn't there still be multiple orthodox churches in the US?  How does uniting some of them make it acceptable?


What was the question?

I guess the title is too ethnic for you.  Tongue

The title was the main question of my post but then it kept expanding as since it's all tied together.  My main question is about unity and how does it help.  I would like specific examples on a parish level as well as a national level.  My point is that if there are none or very little positives, why not just let things be.  The OCA can focus on the non-ethnics and the various ethnics can focus on the ethnics until they all assimilate.  Why do we need a civil war to destroy the church much faster?

For example, my one-voice example in the original post.  Unity supporters think that is a benefit.  I am just saying you are wrong.  And it most likely will not be the voice you want heard.

At the parish level, all the ethnics that many of you seem to have had bad experiences with, they will not disappear.  They will still not like you "foreigners".  So that will not change at the parish level.

Eugenio's example of more money spent on evangelizing the US is an other popular answer that will not happen.  Like I state above, that money will NOT be donated for evangelical purposes.  It will be donated to various ethnic groups that will pop up (which from afar, seems to be already happening in the US).


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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 08:02:35 PM »

The Oriental Orthodox, old believers, etc. are in schism, thus are not part of the Orthodox Church, so their administrators are of no concern to us. If they come back into communion with us, then we'll perhaps have some shuffling to do, but there still will be one, and only one, Orthodox Bishop with jurisdiction over any given piece of ground.

And our North American bishops know better than anyone that North America is a tapestry of every other nationality under the sun. I hardly think that in a new Unified Diocese of Chicago (for instance), if the bishop happens to be Greek, would start making the Russians use Byzantine chant. I don't think the ethnic character of individual parishes would change.
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 08:31:34 PM »

Go to Chicago, where as I understand there are 17 different Orthodox bishops who claim jurisdiction there. Do you not see what an irregular hodgepodge this is?

But as my original question asks about jurisdictions and which are supposed to be united, even after unity, instead of 17 bishops wouldn't there still be 12 different Orthodox bishops in Chicago who claim jurisdiction (OO, old calendar, others, etc.)?

No, one. That's the idea of unity.

Rather, by basing Orthodox dioceses on geography, rather than ethnicity, people can be closer to their bishops. And they can use the money they are now spending on overlapping administrative costs to other causes, such as evangelizing the US.

But the ethnics who only donate to the church because they want to see the language school or the soccer team or the dance group, will NOT give money to a non-ethnic orthodox church. 

Then they are not giving it to the ethnic Orthodox Church, but to the language school, soccer team or dance group.  Christ's last name isn't Berlitz, He didn't play a sport and danced to a different tune. Let them have their ethnic club. Leave Christ out of it, because they already have.

Quote
This is something some of you do not seem to want to understand.  The ethnics will give this money directly to language schools/soccer teams/dance groups, and NOT the church.  So there will be a lot less money coming in.

So less to waste, and more reason to spend wisely.

But Bob, since your mind is already made up on the matter, why did you ask the question in the first place?  Roll Eyes

My original question was about the various jurisdictions and who would be united and how about the rest.  Then my post just kept expanding.  While, I am pretty convinced that "unity" will lead to civil war in the OC with no winners in the end,

If that were true, there is no winners now, and we should make better use of our Sunday mornings.

Quote
like I said, this is a new issue to me and I want to understand the reasoning of those who think that unity will be a positive.

Consult St. John: the Lord's Prayer at Gethsemane.

Quote
  I am willing to change my mind if somebody can convince me unity will be good.



Quote
On the other hand, if it was just a bunch of keyboard cowboys discussing this issue, it could be easily ignored.  But this issue obviously has legs with the sham that's happening in NYC this week.

Talk to the EP.

Quote
So if none of you can change my mind, maybe I can show some of you how us "ethnics" view this issue and that it has great potential in being a complete disaster.

Only if the ethnarchs run the agenda.

We see how you view the issue, placing language lessons, soccer and dance above the Gospel. We (and that includes a lot ethnics, btw) have a different set of priorities.  The Lord's.

"bob" wrote:

"Frankly, it seems to me that "unity" is a way for the OCA-types to take over the GOA and their resources."

LOL! Riiight. As if.  laugh

The GOAA vastly outnumbers the OCA in terms of churches, parishioners, money and resources. The only area where the OCA outnumbers the GOAA is in its number of seminaries: The OCA has 3 (plus another in Canada IIRC), whereas the GOAA only has one, Holy Cross.

No one in the OCA is seriously advocating that they "take over" the GOAA. That would be like the guppy trying to swallow the beluga whale.  Cheesy

I don't mean literally take over, but from an idealogical stand point.  Meaning from issues like abortion (will you not demand they stop supporting politicians who support abortion?) to homosexuality or stem cell research, to canceling ethnic language schools and dance groups, to issues like what language the liturgy should be in or confession, etc.

We only plan on taking over from a theological/moral stand point.


   
With regards to unity, since this American pope is supposed to rule Canada if not the entire Americas, why stop there?  Why not have world wide unity and have 1 leader?
     Are you seriously referring to Met. JONAH as an "American pope"Huh

No and it's not about Met. JONAH specifically.  My point is that people complain about the EP and being subjected to a foreign ruler, yet under all unity plans, Canada is supposed to be subjected to a foreign ruler in the US?  Also, since people want unity, why should it be based on 21st century political boundaries?  Why not just 1 world wide unified church with 1 leader?



  I'd have to know where you are coming to make any intelligent reply.  You seem to 1) think the Church is a human instiution. It's a divine institution with humans in it, 2) that the One and Catholic part is somehow less important than Holy or Apostolic.

I fail to see how where I'm coming from makes a difference to your answer.  Anyway, I'm Canadian, cradle Orthodox, I always thought the reason the church existed was to teach us ethnic dances and to meet a nice ethnic girl.  Grin

It shows.

Like I said, this unity issue is not a big issue up here. 

Others say otherwise.  What big issues to you have? Whether to use monotonal or polytonal marks?


Unfortunately anything that happens down there affects us up here. 

Then it would be a big issue there, now wouldn't it?

Quote
I've never paid attention to the administrative side of things so this is all new to me.  As for the "One and Catholic" part, again, wouldn't there still be multiple orthodox churches in the US? 

You do know what the word "united" means, no?

Quote
How does uniting some of them make it acceptable?

Union of all of them. "One," and "Catholic."

What was the question?

I guess the title is too ethnic for you.  Tongue

The title was the main question of my post but then it kept expanding as since it's all tied together.  My main question is about unity and how does it help.  I would like specific examples on a parish level as well as a national level.  My point is that if there are none or very little positives, why not just let things be. 

Besides it being scandalous, heretical and damanable, nothing.


Quote
The OCA can focus on the non-ethnics and the various ethnics can focus on the ethnics until they all assimilate.  Why do we need a civil war to destroy the church much faster?

You prefer to destroy it slower?

Quote
For example, my one-voice example in the original post.  Unity supporters think that is a benefit.  I am just saying you are wrong.  And it most likely will not be the voice you want heard.

I don't have the president, or for that matter the form of government I want either.  Oh, well.

Quote
At the parish level, all the ethnics that many of you seem to have had bad experiences with, they will not disappear.  They will still not like you "foreigners".
 

Back in wherever they THINK they are living, we are foreignors.  In our home, either you are part of the family, or a guest. Both in Canada and the US, you are free to go home.

Quote
So that will not change at the parish level.

It already has. I don't know where in the middle of Nowhere you are located.

Quote
Eugenio's example of more money spent on evangelizing the US is an other popular answer that will not happen.  Like I state above, that money will NOT be donated for evangelical purposes.  It will be donated to various ethnic groups that will pop up (which from afar, seems to be already happening in the US).

Then they can keep their money, and render account on Judgement Day (or don't you believe in that?).  God loves the cheerful giver.
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 09:03:04 PM »

No and it's not about Met. JONAH specifically.  My point is that people complain about the EP and being subjected to a foreign ruler, yet under all unity plans, Canada is supposed to be subjected to a foreign ruler in the US?

Shhh. As Canadians, we are supposed to keep silent while our betters to the south lead us. /sarcasm
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 09:10:49 PM »

No and it's not about Met. JONAH specifically.  My point is that people complain about the EP and being subjected to a foreign ruler, yet under all unity plans, Canada is supposed to be subjected to a foreign ruler in the US?

Shhh. As Canadians, we are supposed to keep silent while our betters to the south lead us. /sarcasm

You're subject to one an ocean way, why not one across the border?
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 09:20:26 PM »

No and it's not about Met. JONAH specifically.  My point is that people complain about the EP and being subjected to a foreign ruler, yet under all unity plans, Canada is supposed to be subjected to a foreign ruler in the US?

Shhh. As Canadians, we are supposed to keep silent while our betters to the south lead us. /sarcasm

You're subject to one an ocean way, why not one across the border?

The one across the ocean leaves us alone.

As for the ones across the border, what they don't know may not hurt them, but it probably will hurt us.
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 09:28:53 PM »



No and it's not about Met. JONAH specifically.  My point is that people complain about the EP and being subjected to a foreign ruler, yet under all unity plans, Canada is supposed to be subjected to a foreign ruler in the US? 
Do the rules actually say that a future North American patriarch/pope/whatever must reside in the USA? Is there anything to prevent him from residing in Moose Jaw, or Mississauga? (I've been sitting here for at least three minutes rereading this and trying to decide whether or not it's a serious question  Smiley.)
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2010, 09:36:48 PM »



No and it's not about Met. JONAH specifically.  My point is that people complain about the EP and being subjected to a foreign ruler, yet under all unity plans, Canada is supposed to be subjected to a foreign ruler in the US? 
Do the rules actually say that a future North American patriarch/pope/whatever must reside in the USA? Is there anything to prevent him from residing in Moose Jaw, or Mississauga? (I've been sitting here for at least three minutes rereading this and trying to decide whether or not it's a serious question  Smiley.)

There is nothing to prevent the primate of a unified North/Central American church having his episcopal seat anywhere from Panama City to Alert. But in all likelihood the seat will be in either New York or DC. And by "in all likelihood" I mean, the chances of the Primate being in a Canadian city is about the chance of the Canadiens winning Lord Stanley's Mug.
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2010, 09:58:45 PM »

There is nothing to prevent the primate of a unified North/Central American church having his episcopal seat anywhere from Panama City to Alert. But in all likelihood the seat will be in either New York or DC. And by "in all likelihood" I mean, the chances of the Primate being in a Canadian city is about the chance of the Canadiens winning Lord Stanley's Mug.

Do you believe that every political boundary should also be an ecclesiastic boundary? Can't a North Americn primate simply be a North American primate, and not a US primate, even if he's based in NYC? If the Central American Orthodox presence were to dramatically increase, do you think, say, Nicaragua and Guatemala should eventually have their own patriarchates?
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 10:21:43 PM »

Do you believe that every political boundary should also be an ecclesiastic boundary?

That would depend on the boundary in question.

Quote
Can't a North American primate simply be a North American primate, and not a US primate, even if he's based in NYC?

Of course he can simply be a North American primate. But the record on hand shows that "North American" looks very nice on paper. In practice, it's not all a bed of roses.

Quote
If the Central American Orthodox presence were to dramatically increase, do you think, say, Nicaragua and Guatemala should eventually have their own patriarchates?

In the past I am on record as being opposed to autocephalous patriarch(s) in the New World. I have always advocated for diocesan bodies who are as self-sufficient as possible. That would extend to granting Nicaragua and Guatemala autonomy if their Orthodox populations justified such actions.
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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 11:15:28 PM »

Do you believe that every political boundary should also be an ecclesiastic boundary?

That would depend on the boundary in question.

We're agreed on that.

Can't a North American primate simply be a North American primate, and not a US primate, even if he's based in NYC?

Of course he can simply be a North American primate. But the record on hand shows that "North American" looks very nice on paper. In practice, it's not all a bed of roses.
Agreed here too.

If the Central American Orthodox presence were to dramatically increase, do you think, say, Nicaragua and Guatemala should eventually have their own patriarchates?

In the past I am on record as being opposed to autocephalous patriarch(s) in the New World.

Why's that?

Quote
I have always advocated for diocesan bodies who are as self-sufficient as possible.

Now we are back to agreement.

Quote
That would extend to granting Nicaragua and Guatemala autonomy if their Orthodox populations justified such actions.
If the reports we hear are any where near the truth, we'll find out soon.
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 11:22:07 PM »

Why's that?

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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 11:32:43 PM »

Why's that?

"It takes three years to build a ship but 300 years to build a tradition." - Andrew Cunningham, 1st Viscount Cunningham of Hyndhope

Turns out, such is not the case:
The invention of tradition By Eric J. Hobsbawm, Terence O. Ranger
http://books.google.com/books?id=sfvnNdVY3KIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=invention+of+tradition+hobsbawm&hl=en&ei=q5X8S-OwMZ2QMqa8vd4H&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Constantinople created its tradition as we know it basically in the span of at most two centuries.
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« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 11:58:54 PM »

Why's that?

"It takes three years to build a ship but 300 years to build a tradition." - Andrew Cunningham, 1st Viscount Cunningham of Hyndhope

Turns out, such is not the case:
The invention of tradition By Eric J. Hobsbawm, Terence O. Ranger
http://books.google.com/books?id=sfvnNdVY3KIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=invention+of+tradition+hobsbawm&hl=en&ei=q5X8S-OwMZ2QMqa8vd4H&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Constantinople created its tradition as we know it basically in the span of at most two centuries.

What?? No page citation?? Tsk, tsk. Besides, there is tradition and there is tradition.
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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2010, 12:11:45 AM »

Why's that?

"It takes three years to build a ship but 300 years to build a tradition." - Andrew Cunningham, 1st Viscount Cunningham of Hyndhope

Turns out, such is not the case:
The invention of tradition By Eric J. Hobsbawm, Terence O. Ranger
http://books.google.com/books?id=sfvnNdVY3KIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=invention+of+tradition+hobsbawm&hl=en&ei=q5X8S-OwMZ2QMqa8vd4H&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Constantinople created its tradition as we know it basically in the span of at most two centuries.

What?? No page citation?? Tsk, tsk. Besides, there is tradition and there is tradition.

The book is one of those rare works that no matter what part you take, it's relevant.  I did, however, think especially of chapter 4, especially the conclusions on p. 160 ff.
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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2010, 12:38:45 AM »

Is it acceptable to have 2 separate orthodox churches, one being the OCA and one the GOA?  Again, since we will never have complete unity, the OCA can pretend that the GOA is like the OO churches right?

What is bolded could happen on May 30 (ironically, the Sunday of All Saints) if Patriarch Kyrill revokes the Tomos of Autocephaly.  The OCA would become akin to the OO Churches - relations with EO Churches would remain cordial; however, the OCA would be "lost."

I'm just trying to understand the whole issue of unity, which just seems like one big waste of energy and resources (like the meetings this week).  Frankly, it seems to me that "unity" is a way for the OCA-types to take over the GOA and their resources.  

Why would you put it in those terms?

It's really amusing that you guys don't see that it will never happen like that.  I know people are going to reply that "unity" is a way for the EP to take over all the American churches, and I'm sure that is what the EP wants.  But my comment is about unity supporters in America and what it seems their goal is.

For example, most unity supporters seem to think a positive of unity is speaking with one voice.  While I agree, it seems that unity supporters think this voice will be this right-wing-American-WASPish voice that most unity supporters seem to possess.  Do you guys think all the ethnic liberals (that will still pay for most of the churches activities) will just disappear (because when they do, so will the church)?

The Church is resilient against political voices.  If you've seen the threads on the restoration of Haghia Sophia, these organizations operate completely outside the Church.

Why do you think the minority will decide what this one voice will be?  Now I realize some of you fantasize that 50-million right-wing American WASPs will join this non-ethnic Orthodox Church, the truth is while 99% of converts so far seem to fit that description, for the OC to grow in the future, most converts will be much more to the left.  It will be WASPs who instead of becoming Buddhists will join the OC.

On some blog somewhere I read the OCA should declare it's autocephaly and announce it is the "official church of Orthodoxy in America brought to you by FOX News" (ok, I added the Fake News part).  Just wondering but why doesn't it to that?  And more importantly, what would change?  Why doesn't the OCA just focus on that instead of worrying what the GOA does.

The GOA has had friends in high places since the 1950's.  The OCA was founded as a child of the Cold War.  When the Cold War ended and the Internet came online, the OCA found new life.  Patriarch Athenagoras, between 1970 and when He reposed in 1972, spoke out against the Tomos of Autocephaly.  As Archbishop Athenagoras, he united the GOA Churches in the 1930's and 1940's against political strife and other factors.

I've never understood why people join something by choice and then try to change it to something that already exists.  For example, GOA members who whine about "too much Greek", why not just go join the OCA, problem solved.  (I can't wait for the first person to say there aren't enough OCA people in their area - the irony completely going over their head).

OCA doesn't have March 21 parades, language schools or Metropolis sponsored folk dance festivals.   Smiley

With regards to unity, since this American pope is supposed to rule Canada if not the entire Americas, why stop there?  Why not have world wide unity and have 1 leader?

Some argue that the Pope of Rome already has the unity you suggested. Some will argue that one side or the other is fighting a battle for assimilation.

Also, I see comments on other websites and people who seem against the "ethnic" part of the GOA in particular, have Greek names.  I assume some of you must be here, so if those are your real names, why not change them to an American name?  Aren't you guys embarrassed by your foreign ethnic names?

Sorry for jumping all over the place, but being Canadian this issue has never been at the forefront up here and on a personal level, this is a pretty new issue for me.  I see many more negatives than positives in this so called unity.  Can somebody explain to me the positives both on a local level and a national level?  I would like specific examples of how unity will help.  I'm sure some of you are tired of doing that, but I would really appreciate it.

If not being united in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church isn't unifying enough, I don't know what is.   Huh
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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2010, 01:36:35 AM »

I'm going to try to comment on the initial issues raised in this topic.  You can go to the SCOBA website to read the purpose of the regional assemblies, along with the regulations under which they are to function. The reason for the convening of the Regional Episcopal Assemblies in the territories that are not within the recognized Holy Orthodox Churches, is that, the Holy Orthodox Churches have finally agreed to, and have established a structure, to enhance the message of Orthodoxy in these regions where there are more than one bishop in a city, or, overlapping ecclesial entities (dioceses, archdioceses, metropolis').  They have set forth regulations for the effective operation of these regional assemblies, whose goals include, developing a formula for the administrative unification of these overlapping ecclesial entities.  The process is established in such a way, that it does not impede the current ecclesial administrative structures or operations.  Our Holy Hierarchs can get to know each other, first of all, and work toward coordinating the many services and ministries of the church so that at some time in the future, working together will come natural and not be thought of as something unique or foreign.

I have never seen any political persuasion, liberal or conservative, as dominating any of the churches in this hemisphere, nor have I seen anyone argue for inclusion of political philosophical agendas in the church. 

The Holy Orthodox Churches have not attained communion with the so called Oriental Orthodox Churches, so this matter would not be within the competency of the regional assembly. 

One of the tasks of the regional episcopal assembly will be to establish an inventory of the separated Orthodox jurisdictions, many of which follow the Old Calendar year round.  While I would hope a dialogue could be established with many of them, that would probably be another long term goal.
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« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2010, 01:51:02 AM »

OCA doesn't have March 21 25 parades, language schools or Metropolis sponsored folk dance festivals.   Smiley

shame on me.   Sad

 Embarrassed  angel  Embarrassed
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2010, 02:45:12 AM »

Yea, well Reply No. 24, they do have picnics celebrating Russian Day.
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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2010, 03:23:17 AM »

Yea, well Reply No. 24, they do have picnics celebrating Russian Day.

Is that universally true for every OCA Church in Canada, USA and Mexico?

Every GOA Church commemorates March 25 Independence Day in some capacity at local, state and federal levels in the USA.  Do Greeks have Independence Day parades in Mexico City or Buenos Aires?   Shocked
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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2010, 03:55:55 AM »

I don't know about every church and neither do you.  I imagine the small OCA mission parishes may not celebrate Russian Day, as do large, established OCA parishes.  There are many GOAA parishes that do not have Greek Schools, perhaps one third of the parishes in the GOAA.  My suburban GOAA parish skipped commeting on Greek Independence Day for many years; I can't remember when I last heard about OXI Day in a GOAA parish.  I'd guess there are quite a few GOAA parishes that ignore Greek Independence Day.
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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2010, 07:31:47 AM »

To the OP: If you want to figure out what this is all about, read the official documents. They explain everything: http://www.scoba.us/resources/chambesy_documents.html

You'll see that this is part of a long, international process. The Assembly here in North America will not produce radical changes on its own. In fact, it has absolutely no authority to change the jurisdictional situation here in North America.

In the short term, the Assembly's purpose is "to form a common position of the Orthodox Church on various issues," and, in the longer term, to communicate those common positions to the public and to Mother Churches. Eventually, once all regions of the diaspora and all Mother Churches are in agreement on this (and all other issues discussed in the international Pre-Conciliar process, e.g. fasting, the calendar, reception of non-Orthodox, etc.), then there will be a Great and Holy Council for the entire world. Only this body -- not the Assembly in any region -- has the authority to actually change anything. Naturally, it will be quite some time before this kind of consensus on so many issues across so many countries is reached.

While that process is working out, the Assembly here in North America will work on issues of common concern. "The work and the responsibility of these Episcopal Assemblies will be the concern for manifesting the unity of Orthodoxy, the development of common action of all the Orthodox of each region to address the pastoral needs of Orthodox living in the region, a common representation of all Orthodox vis-à-vis other faiths and the wider society in the region, the cultivation of theological scholarship and ecclesiastical education, etc."

I assume the goal is the Scoba members including Rocor to be united?  Is that accurate?

The goal is for all churches in this region which are canonical Orthodox Churches to be united. In this case, canonicity is determined by the Diptychs of all the Mother Churches (e.g. Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Moscow, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, etc.) and, as a result, by the fact that we already con-celebrate Divine Liturgy together.
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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 09:41:17 AM »

In response to "Bob":

"But the ethnics who only donate to the church because they want to see the language school or the soccer team or the dance group, will NOT give money to a non-ethnic orthodox church.  This is something some of you do not seem to want to understand.  The ethnics will give this money directly to language schools/soccer teams/dance groups, and NOT the church."

What does this then say about the church? Listen to yourself. What does this say about their committment to the Gospel?

Are you speaking for all "ethnics" here Bob, are just for yourself?

As it now stands, there are still plenty of organizations that exist where they can donate to such secular concerns. Since you're Greek, you likely know that in the GOAA, the AHEPA and Daughters of Penelope are two such examples. I assume these organizations would still exist after such administrative unity was achieved.  

Bob also objected to the prospect of a united Orthodox church speaking out on such matters as "issues like abortion (will you not demand they stop supporting politicians who support abortion?) to homosexuality or stem cell research..."

My response is: What would the problem with that be again? What would the problem be with the Orthodox church speaking out on important issues of our times?  Huh
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« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2010, 10:07:49 AM »

Btw, I've been the OCA for nearly its entire autocephalous existence, in a number of parishes, and I've never heard of "Russian Day."

If Pat. Kyril revoked the Tomos of Autocephaly (which he can't, but we have a seperate thread on that topic. Actually several, e.g.:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15123.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23401.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5731.0.html
etc.), the OCA would resemble the Old Calendar jurisdictions, the Church of Macedonia, or even better (in similtude) the UOC-KP.  What would really make it interesting would be if the EA seats Met. Jonah on the executive committee (as a primate), the Phanar tries to veto it, and the PoM supports the EA and upholds the Tomos, a situation (despite the dreams of so many well wishers here and elsewhere) far more likely than the PoM revoking the Tomos of 1970.

On the EA here, I understand that:
1) it is the last to be held.
2) it is the largest, in terms of number of bishops, number of Faithful, population as a whole, and extent of territory.
3) it is the only one on the territory of an autocephalous Church.

Anyone think differently (for the purposes of this question, you can read point 3 as meaning "so called autocephalous," to make fans of Fr. Arey happy)?

I don't know why Europe was broken up so, as most of the countries are now in the EU with the Mother Churches, which obviates a lot of the need for a different administration, from say GB from France.
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