Author Topic: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?  (Read 55380 times)

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Offline Starlight

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #225 on: May 29, 2010, 11:01:04 PM »
Apparently (2) other Hierarchs, who could not make it and they so far were not mentioned yet:

Metropolitan Epiphanios of Bryoula (GOA)
Bishop Georgije (Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Canada)

AFAIK, Metropolitan Epiphanios currently lives in USA after his retirement from the position of first Metropolitan of Spain and Portugal and election to the titular see of Bryoula. His Eminence showed great leadership in Spain and Portugal, including but not limited to Pan-Orthodox efforts.

Offline arimethea

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #226 on: May 29, 2010, 11:06:03 PM »
Apparently (2) other Hierarchs, who could not make it and they so far were not mentioned yet:

Metropolitan Epiphanios of Bryoula (GOA)
Bishop Georgije (Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Canada)

AFAIK, Metropolitan Epiphanios currently lives in USA after his retirement from the position of first Metropolitan of Spain and Portugal and election to the titular see of Bryoula. His Eminence showed great leadership in Spain and Portugal, including but not limited to Pan-Orthodox efforts.

If anyone has access to the printed directory of the Patriarchate of Constantinople they will see that there are at least a half dozen or more retired bishops who call the United States their home with address in places like Florida and Arizona. I do not believe any of those bishops were invited since they never served in America.
Joseph

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #227 on: May 29, 2010, 11:38:27 PM »
Speaking of white klobuks:  Can someone explain why Met. Nicholas of Amissos sometimes wears white and sometimes black?  Thanks.

I don't know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? 

Offline Starlight

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #228 on: May 29, 2010, 11:47:57 PM »
Arimethea, I see your point but in the online version of this directory (http://www.patriarchate.org/patriarchate/hierarchy-of-the-throne), Metropolitan Epiphanios (Perialas) is listed among Metropolitan Archbishops of the Throne in Section I instead of the Retired Hierarchs in Section V. The same applies to Archbishop John (Rinne) of Nicea, who lives in Finland and Metropolitan Sotirios (Trambas) of Pisidia, who continues to reside in Korea.

On the other hand, some others are listed as retired - Section V at the link above. For USA, (5) Hierarchs are listed as retired plus His Grace Bishop Dimitrios (Couchell) of Xanthos indicated without reference to the country, but he also lives in USA.

Metropolitan Epiphanios was born in USA and served as a priest here for many years prior to his election to the Episcopacy: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Epiphanios_(Perialas)_of_Spain_and_Portugal

Therefore, my guess was that while the retired Hierarchs were not expected to attend, Metropolitan Nikitas (Lulias) of Dardanellia has been invited and participated in the Assembly. So, chances exist that Metropolitan Epiphanios also could have been invited. What do you think?

Sorry if I am creating a confusion...

« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 11:57:52 PM by Starlight »

Offline arimethea

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #229 on: May 30, 2010, 12:22:23 AM »
Therefore, my guess was that while the retired Hierarchs were not expected to attend, Metropolitan Nikitas (Lulias) of Dardanellia has been invited and participated in the Assembly. So, chances exist that Metropolitan Epiphanios also could have been invited. What do you think?
Sorry if I am creating a confusion...

I think these are good questions to be asking and this is one of the goals the EA hopes to answer; who are the Bishops in America?

What makes Metropolitan Nikitas different from Metropolitan Epiphanios is that Metropolitan Nikitas is a function bishop in America as he is the Director of the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute in Berkeley, California.
Joseph

Offline jah777

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #230 on: May 30, 2010, 12:28:57 AM »
Ialmisry, please forgive the late and limited response.  It is clear to me that I am much more limited in the time I can give to this forum in general, so please take this into consideration if my replies seem insufficient in frequency or length.

Quote from: jah777
from the Tomos:
Article XIV
Effect of Non-Performance
In the event that this agreement shall become null and void and of no further force and effect for any cause whatever, the parties agree that they shall respectively remain in the status which each enjoyed prior to the execution of this agreement.

What Tomos are you quoting? because the Tomos of Autocephaly on the OCA site:
http://www.oca.org/DOCtomos.asp?SID=12
and the Russian Orthodox Church in America-Patriarchal Parishes site:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/page.php?id=66
there is no Article XIV, nor any of the wording you "cite." 

The quote came from the Agreement of Tomos of Autocephaly, dated March 31, 1970 and which can be found at http://www.oca.org/DOCautocephaly.asp?SID=12&ID=76.  This OCA site states that this is the “Agreement made by Russian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of America” concerning the Tomos.  In other words, it is a more detailed “fleshing out” of the Tomos. 

Quote from: jah777
I am not saying that the OCA has not produced any good fruit,

You just did.
Please, Ialmisry, if you wish to respond to any of my messages in the future, please read at least a whole paragraph to understand what I am saying, instead of responding to isolated sentences in complete disregard for context.  I said in my message that

Quote
The Tomos of 1970 did not bear fruit” and then stated “I am not saying that the OCA has not produced any good fruit, I am only saying the obvious that the Tomos has failed to lead to a united autocephalous Church in America and should therefore be made “null and void” in the language of Article XIV of the Tomos.’

In other words, I recognize that the OCA has done some good and is not therefore entirely “fruitless”, but the Tomos has been not only fruitless in leading to a united autocephalous Church in America, but a major obstacle to such.

As noted above, the language isn't in the Tomos. And if it were, then the Charter of the GOA, ROCOR, etc. must be made "null and void," as they not only did not lead to a united autocephalous Church in America, they aren't even headed in that direction.

Again, the language is in the agreement regarding the Tomos and your remarks regarding the GOA, ROCOR, etc. do not apply here because neither body was granted autocephaly.  You are correct that the GOA, ROCOR, etc. are not heading in the direction of trying to obtain a Tomos that would recognize their sole jurisdiction as the autocephalous Church in America.  Instead, they are working with the other jurisdictions towards a united autocephalous Church in America.  The former approach followed by the Metropolia/OCA is foolish and untenable, as even the OCA recognizes. 

Rome, Alexandria and Antioch were established as autocephalous long before the establishment of monasticism.  Nicea I recognized this autocephaly when St. Anthony was in the process of formulating the white martyrdom of monasticism.

The maturity of the Metropolia in 1970 or the OCA today, and monasticism as a very important indicator of this maturity, has nothing at all to do with the fact that “Rome, Alexandria and Antioch were established as autocephalous long before the establishment of monasticism.”  These were apostolic foundations that were built upon and nourished by the blood and intercession of countless martyrs from these lands.  It is this martyric spirit which is the “wisdom of the Cross” at the heart of the Orthodox faith.  In times of outward peace where there is no threat of physical martyrdom, this cross-bearing martyric spirit flourishes in monasticism.  Obviously, there is no threat of physical martyrdom in America at present, so one would expect the cross-bearing mystery of true Christian witness to express itself in the second form, monasticism, especially in such a decadent society whose values are so opposed to true Christian striving and where it is so difficult (but never impossible) to live a true Christian life in the world.   

I said
Quote

So far, the EP in America has the only vibrant monastic life, but even these 17 monasteries are young.

And you replied
Quote
These would be those monastics that the EP's Chief Secretary was dissing in his speech last year?

Love to see you argue that point of "the only vibrant monastic life," rather than assert it.

This needs no argument, only “come and see.”  The number of men and women who have become monastics in these monasteries, the number of laity who frequent these monasteries, the piety of the faithful who drink spiritually from these life-sustaining wells, the healthy and sober spirit exhibited by these monastics, and the testimonies of all other great monastic centers (Mt. Athos, St. Sabbas Monastery, etc.) concerning these monasteries is sufficient.  Any debate on this is futile, so please do not waste time contesting this assertion.  Simply take it or leave it.  Chief secretaries, bishops, and even patriarchs have in past times been numbered among the enemies of Christ and his Church, so whatever this Chief Secretary said, he was not necessarily expressing the mind of Christ.

Regarding St. Innocent’s letter, I certainly do both recognize and applaud his understanding about the importance of using English in Orthodox churches in America and the missionary zeal that he exhibited.  The OCA is not the only body who has translated texts into English or established missions, and I personally have found the OCA translations at least to be quite lacking and the absence, for instance, of a published Menaion quite shocking.  ROCOR’s publishing of a complete Menion and Octoechos in English, as well as other texts, is very exemplary indeed.  ROCOR has played a tremendous role in making the wealth of the Orthodox Church available to English-speaking Americans, though ROCOR in America as a whole is not as insistent on the exclusive use of English in its services.  This is largely due to the fact that ROCOR has received a significant stream of immigrants from Russia over the years, a reality that was not indicative of St. Innocent’s days.  My point, however, is that the use of English and other such statements quoted from St. Innocent do not by themselves betray the autonomous or autocephalous ambitions that have come to characterize the OCA, nor has the spiritual heritage of the OCA been strongly colored by the legacies of St. Innocent and St. Herman.  If only this were the case!  Instead, the St. Sergius Institute in Paris and the intellectual vanity and heretical tendencies born from this experiment have seemingly shaped the OCA as a whole more than anything else.

It is good to see at this week’s Episcopal Assembly, Met Jonah accepting his position as a simple bishop out of deference to the fact that the other Churches do not recognize him as the head of an autocephalous church.  This gives hope that Met Jonah, at least, is placing Orthodox unity in America above insistence on the claims of the OCA and that, if this is the will of God expressed through the common decision of the other local churches, he might be willing to lay aside the Tomos for the good of the Church in America.  May it be as God wills, for the triumph of Orthodoxy and the salvation of souls. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 12:30:52 AM by jah777 »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #231 on: May 30, 2010, 03:02:13 AM »
Ialmisry, please forgive the late and limited response.  It is clear to me that I am much more limited in the time I can give to this forum in general, so please take this into consideration if my replies seem insufficient in frequency or length.

Quote from: jah777
from the Tomos:
Article XIV
Effect of Non-Performance
In the event that this agreement shall become null and void and of no further force and effect for any cause whatever, the parties agree that they shall respectively remain in the status which each enjoyed prior to the execution of this agreement.

What Tomos are you quoting? because the Tomos of Autocephaly on the OCA site:
http://www.oca.org/DOCtomos.asp?SID=12
and the Russian Orthodox Church in America-Patriarchal Parishes site:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/page.php?id=66
there is no Article XIV, nor any of the wording you "cite."  

The quote came from the Agreement of Tomos of Autocephaly, dated March 31, 1970 and which can be found at http://www.oca.org/DOCautocephaly.asp?SID=12&ID=76.  This OCA site states that this is the “Agreement made by Russian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of America” concerning the Tomos.  In other words, it is a more detailed “fleshing out” of the Tomos.

Not exactly.  I knew where you got it, but I wanted you to so state.  You identified it as the Tomos of Autocephaly. It is not (shown by the fact, for instance, that it is not posted on the MP's website but the actual Tomos is). It is the proposal, not the Pre-Nuptial Agreement.  Once performed, it became history. The preceding article shows how that was to be done:
Quote
Article XIII
Procedure
 
In respect to the ratification of this agreement as hereinafter provided, and the subsequent steps necessary to make it effective, the procedural steps shall be as follows:

(1) This agreement shall be executed in duplicate counterparts in the man her hereinafter provided.

(2) One counterpart of the agreement shall be submitted to His Holiness, the Patriarch of Moscow, and the Holy Synod.

(3) The other copy of the agreement shall be submitted to the Bishops Sobor for ratification with the understanding that the subsequent procedure set forth hereinafter in this Article will be consummated.

(4) After such ratification, the Metropolitan of the Metropolia shall address a petition to His Holiness, the Patriarch of Moscow, and the Holy Synod asking them to proclaim the autocephaly of the Metropolia and to take the steps enumerated in paragraphs (5) to (8) below.

(5) After the receipt of such petition, the Holy Synod of the Patriarchate shall ratify this agreement.

(6) After such ratification, His Holiness, the Patriarch of Moscow, and the Holy Synod shall issue a proclamation of autocephaly in conformity with the provisions of Article XII hereof, [Article XII Proclamation of Autocephaly: The proclamation of the autocephaly of the Metropolia by His Holiness, the Patriarch of Moscow, and the Holy Synod shall declare the Metropolia to be an autocephalous church of the Orthodox faith, having exclusive spiritual and temporal jurisdiction on the continent of North America and Hawaii with the exceptions mentioned in Article V, paragraph (1) of the present agreement and possessing all of the rights, powers and privileges usually associated with autocephaly under the Canonical Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church.] and shall send a notice thereof to the Metropolia.

(7) After the issuance of such proclamation, His Holiness, the Patriarch of Moscow, and the Holy Synod shall transmit to the Metropolitan of the Metropolia a Synodal Tome, containing the ratification of this agreement and the proclamation granting the autocephaly of the Metropolia.

(8) Simultaneously, His Holiness, the Patriarch of Moscow, and the Holy Synod shall address to the heads of all other autocephalous churches of the Orthodox faith a communication advising them of the declaration of the autocephaly of the Metropolia and urging their brotherly communion with the new autocephalous church.

(9) If the notice mentioned in paragraph (6) of this Article has not been received by the Met¬ropolia within 100 days after the date of this agreement, this agreement shall thereupon become null and void and of no further force and effect unless prior to the end of this period it is extended by mu¬tual written agreement

The Actual Tomos is dated April 10, 1970, and was done in conformity with Article XIII. Once that was done, Article XIV was rendered a nullity.  Btw, if it were as you interpret, another problem would be that the Church of Japan would have to be removed from the jurisdiction of the Holy Synod of Moscow and its autonomy revoked (Article X), and the OCA's Bishop Alejo would be free to claim Mexico (and Central and South America) outright (Article XI).

And since the Metroplia wasn't under Moscow's jurisdiction (and why it was uncanonical), a revert to the prior status, after canonical relations have been established (the OCA bishops are on that list of canonical bishops that Chambesy calls for, signed by Moscow and all the [other] autocephalous Churches), the OCA would be autocephalous by default there as well.

Quote from: jah777
I am not saying that the OCA has not produced any good fruit,

You just did.
Please, Ialmisry, if you wish to respond to any of my messages in the future, please read at least a whole paragraph to understand what I am saying, instead of responding to isolated sentences in complete disregard for context.  I said in my message that

Quote
The Tomos of 1970 did not bear fruit” and then stated “I am not saying that the OCA has not produced any good fruit, I am only saying the obvious that the Tomos has failed to lead to a united autocephalous Church in America and should therefore be made “null and void” in the language of Article XIV of the Tomos.’

In other words, I recognize that the OCA has done some good and is not therefore entirely “fruitless”, but the Tomos has been not only fruitless in leading to a united autocephalous Church in America, but a major obstacle to such.
The only catalyst towards a united Church in America via Chambesy is the autocephaly of the OCA: it is only when Moscow gave notice that because the Phanar inssited on bringing its Congolese Greek Church of Estonia to Pan-Orthodox events that Moscow was going to insist on the OCA's presence. Then the fire was lit under the proposal's for the EA's.  The autocephaly is the wild card driving the dynamics here.

As noted above, the language isn't in the Tomos. And if it were, then the Charter of the GOA, ROCOR, etc. must be made "null and void," as they not only did not lead to a united autocephalous Church in America, they aren't even headed in that direction.

Again, the language is in the agreement regarding the Tomos and your remarks regarding the GOA, ROCOR, etc. do not apply here because neither body was granted autocephaly.  You are correct that the GOA, ROCOR, etc. are not heading in the direction of trying to obtain a Tomos that would recognize their sole jurisdiction as the autocephalous Church in America.  Instead, they are working with the other jurisdictions towards a united autocephalous Church in America.  The former approach followed by the Metropolia/OCA is foolish and untenable, as even the OCA recognizes.
The GOA charter rests on a string going back to the 1908 Tomos, upon which basis the deposed Meletios claimed exclusive jurisdiction over North and South America:
Archb. Metaxakis' of Athens speech to the Holy Synod of Greece in 1920 concerning his visit to America:
Quote
The Patriarchal Tome of 1908 directed the immediate assignment of a Greek Bishop in America.   However I learned in America that for a decade, diplomatic pressures prevented the implementation of the Patriarchal Tome.  Upon my arrival, I waited for the Russian Bishop to come to me; however, he did not.  In order to give him the opportunity, I sent Archimandrites Chrysostom and Alexander to him. He, in turn, reciprocated by sending an Archimandrite to visit me.  I then realized that he expected me to visit him, thus recognizing him as the canonical Bishop in America, under whose jurisdiction the Greek Church ought to belong.  I held a press conference with the Greek and English language newspapers, in which I quoted Orthodox teaching relative to lands outside the existing Patriarchal boundaries that canon law places them under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Thus, the Church in America is under the canonical authority of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and only by its authority can certain actions be taken.    Our presence in America is by virtue of the permission granted by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Tome of 1908, rendering us the only canonical jurisdiction[emph. in the original] No other such permission has been granted.  We are aware only that the Patriarchate of Antioch requested the permission of the Patriarchate to send the Bishop of Seleucia to America for the needs of the Syrian Orthodox.  Prior to this, Efthymios, who was ordained by the Russians for the Syrians, but never recognized by the Patriarchate of Antioch, was abandoned by the Russians.  This event reinforced our position regarding canonicity in America.  Throughout our presence in America, the Russian Bishop attempted indirectly to impose this position of hegemony, yet never openly or officially
http://books.google.com/books?id=Uh4VnseTNZkC&pg=PA137&dq=Galveston+Orthodox&lr=#PPA137,M1

Change Russian to OCA, and see how little has changed.  The GOARCH was set up, not in ignorance of the Russian Archdiocese, but in defiance of it.

And of course, we have heard the revival of Met/Arcb/EP Meletios (ignored by Pope Meletios)' claims by reinventing canon 28 Chalcedon even since his present successor took the throne. The whole debacle of the Jerusalem parishes shows what "working with the other jurisdictions towards a united autocephalous [autocephaly is not on the agenda] Church in America" means by those who imposed GOA's present Charter.  As for ROCOR, by its own definition it is outside its canonical boundaries.

Rome, Alexandria and Antioch were established as autocephalous long before the establishment of monasticism.  Nicea I recognized this autocephaly when St. Anthony was in the process of formulating the white martyrdom of monasticism.

The maturity of the Metropolia in 1970 or the OCA today, and monasticism as a very important indicator of this maturity, has nothing at all to do with the fact that “Rome, Alexandria and Antioch were established as autocephalous long before the establishment of monasticism.”  These were apostolic foundations that were built upon and nourished by the blood and intercession of countless martyrs from these lands.
Afraid you were entrapped again: none of these considerations played a role at all in Constantinople's autocephaly. Nor really in Rome, Alexandria or Antioch's: the order followed the civil order. Alexandria had more martyrs than Rome, and Antioch more Apostolic foundation than Alexandria.

Quote
 It is this martyric spirit which is the “wisdom of the Cross” at the heart of the Orthodox faith.  In times of outward peace where there is no threat of physical martyrdom, this cross-bearing martyric spirit flourishes in monasticism.  Obviously, there is no threat of physical martyrdom in America at present, so one would expect the cross-bearing mystery of true Christian witness to express itself in the second form, monasticism, especially in such a decadent society whose values are so opposed to true Christian striving and where it is so difficult (but never impossible) to live a true Christian life in the world.
In the present climate, a Christian couple raising a Christian family is the equal to any monk. I speak from experience.

Quote
I said
Quote

So far, the EP in America has the only vibrant monastic life, but even these 17 monasteries are young.

And you replied
Quote
These would be those monastics that the EP's Chief Secretary was dissing in his speech last year?

Love to see you argue that point of "the only vibrant monastic life," rather than assert it.

This needs no argument, only “come and see.”  The number of men and women who have become monastics in these monasteries, the number of laity who frequent these monasteries, the piety of the faithful who drink spiritually from these life-sustaining wells, the healthy and sober spirit exhibited by these monastics, and the testimonies of all other great monastic centers (Mt. Athos, St. Sabbas Monastery, etc.) concerning these monasteries is sufficient.  Any debate on this is futile, so please do not waste time contesting this assertion.
 
Then don't make it. You have provided no numbers, facts, figures. Just impressions. Have you been to a non-Greek monastery.  I would think in ROCOR you would have.

I am curious, tho, what you mean by "the testimonies of all other great monastic centers."  btw, it might be useful to point out, in the interests of full disclosure, that when I hear "Holy Mountain," I think of Sinai.

Quote
Simply take it or leave it.  Chief secretaries, bishops, and even patriarchs have in past times been numbered among the enemies of Christ and his Church, so whatever this Chief Secretary said, he was not necessarily expressing the mind of Christ.
But he was expressing the mind of the Phanar, and you started this tangent by claiming the EP's monks were a plus for his jurisdiciton. He had nothing to do with them, and evidently is still hostile towards them.  I would say they should count as a strike against him.

Quote
Regarding St. Innocent’s letter, I certainly do both recognize and applaud his understanding about the importance of using English in Orthodox churches in America and the missionary zeal that he exhibited.  The OCA is not the only body who has translated texts into English or established missions, and I personally have found the OCA translations at least to be quite lacking and the absence, for instance, of a published Menaion quite shocking.  ROCOR’s publishing of a complete Menion and Octoechos in English, as well as other texts, is very exemplary indeed.

I'm only familiar with the prayer book language, which is atrocious.  I find most (but not all) of the OCA translations the best.

Quote
ROCOR has played a tremendous role in making the wealth of the Orthodox Church available to English-speaking Americans, though ROCOR in America as a whole is not as insistent on the exclusive use of English in its services.  This is largely due to the fact that ROCOR has received a significant stream of immigrants from Russia over the years, a reality that was not indicative of St. Innocent’s days.  My point, however, is that the use of English and other such statements quoted from St. Innocent do not by themselves betray the autonomous or autocephalous ambitions that have come to characterize the OCA, nor has the spiritual heritage of the OCA been strongly colored by the legacies of St. Innocent and St. Herman.  If only this were the case!  Instead, the St. Sergius Institute in Paris and the intellectual vanity and heretical tendencies born from this experiment have seemingly shaped the OCA as a whole more than anything else.
You focus only on the language issue.  St. Innocent also stressed the need for American converts, those familiar with American institutions, etc. St. Sebastian Dabovich (the formal canonization is coming) said something prescient at the centenial of St. Innocent's birth:
Quote
I understand and feel the special privilege which I enjoy tonight, and for which I most heartily and humbly thank the Gracious Bishop and Most Reverend Father in God. Deeply feeling the love of our Archpastors, I become bold and venture to look into the unseen, where I behold the spiritual eyes of our first hard working missionary, with kindly light beaming upon this gathering, and approving of the feeble words of your son, and your brother and pastor -- one of the first born of the young Orthodox American Church [St. Sebastian was the first native-born American citizen of immigrant parentage ordained]

I will not detain you by repeating; you will hear and read of his life, and you will see how in the Providence of God, the Reverend Father John became to be known as Innocent, and how he returned to Alaska as the first Bishop there, and likewise our first Bishop in America!

There are several people in this city, who have personally seen him, and remember well the wholesome instructions of their gentle pastor. Besides the elder brethren and the elder sisters among you, some of the people mentioned are also fathers in their community. Our present Bishop and beloved Father in God was at one time under the spiritual rule of the Most Reverend Innocentius, and that was during his student life in the academy of Moscow, when Innocent was the Bishop of the church of Christ in that Province.

I have strong reason for maintaining my assertion that the missionary priest John Benjaminof also landed on our shores here, and how I love to dwell on the thought -- he bestowed GodÕs blessing upon our beautiful California. It was in the Fall of 1838 that this Godfearing worker left Sitkha in a sailing vessel to voyage down the whole length of the great Pacific and make his way around Cape Horn to Europe and St Petersburgh. At that time the Government of Alaska, following the wise counsels of Baranof, (another great man), obtained and held land in California, where it had a flourishing colony in the part now known as Sonoma County. Baranof was well aware of the worth of Alaska, but he needed California as a storehouse of grain for the Great North with its many resources and grand coast. The globecircumnavigating vessels coming from the North, certainly must have anchored in Californian waters, -- in order to take on supplies and make a final preparation before setting sail to round the Cape for the old world. And so it is possible that our dear missionary may have even offered the Divine Liturgy in the chapel at Fort Ross, and also baptized the Indians in Russian River. I do not attempt to speculate on the idea that our Apostle trod the sands -- where now our splendid City of San Francisco is built. For the sake of justice to memory I simply ask: is there not a history attached to Russian Hill in S. F.?.... It was He, as he later sat in the councils of the Most Holy Governing Synod, who moved the proposition that the Orthodox Bishop in America should transfer his residence from Sitkha to San Francisco.
http://www.holy-trinity.org/history/1897/09.15-27.RussAmOrthoMess.html
It turns out, St. Sebastian was right: St. Innocent's diary as a priest has been recovered, and it reveals that he traveled to Fort Ross and indeed blessed SF with his presence, even visiting the Spanish monks in the Presidio.

Btw, how would you explain St. Tikhon?

Quote
It is good to see at this week’s Episcopal Assembly, Met Jonah accepting his position as a simple bishop out of deference to the fact that the other Churches do not recognize him as the head of an autocephalous church.  This gives hope that Met Jonah, at least, is placing Orthodox unity in America above insistence on the claims of the OCA and that, if this is the will of God expressed through the common decision of the other local churches, he might be willing to lay aside the Tomos for the good of the Church in America.  May it be as God wills, for the triumph of Orthodoxy and the salvation of souls.
He has already said that publically (btw, he has also said publically that he is a primate, not a simple bishop, and that this week). It will, however, be laid aside only for an autocephalous Church in America, not an exarchate.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 03:03:31 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #232 on: May 30, 2010, 08:53:08 AM »
Btw, as to the claim that the Tomos of 1970 was not of the free will of the Patriarchate of Moscow: there is a 30 year statute (or should I say "canon") of limitations. At the latest the clock on that should have started running 1989-1992, between the fall of communims and the first setting up of parishes by ROCOR inside Russia (I'm not sure of the date on that one: does anyone know?  I vaguely remember hearing about it in 1992).  Since then the PoM has done noting but reiterate the Tomos.  Its got 12 years to make a case, but it doesn't seem to be moving in that direction.

Btw, we have letters from the primates of the Greek Churches' branches (except Cyprus) from 1871 to the Episcopal Church in the USA, which refer to the work of the Holy Governing Synod of Russia in North America.  Their statute of limitations ran out in 1901.  The Russian Archdiocese had solidified itself by then and in 1904 consecrated bishops as the local Church.  The Greek Church does not even refer to North America until 1907, and does not issue a statement on it until 1908 (the Tomos which does not issue a protest over the Russians, it ignores the question completely), and did not take action until 1918.  Much, much too late.
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Offline Lichnidos

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #233 on: May 30, 2010, 03:50:36 PM »
Quote
It is good to see at this week’s Episcopal Assembly, Met Jonah accepting his position as a simple bishop out of deference to the fact that the other Churches do not recognize him as the head of an autocephalous church.  This gives hope that Met Jonah, at least, is placing Orthodox unity in America above insistence on the claims of the OCA and that, if this is the will of God expressed through the common decision of the other local churches, he might be willing to lay aside the Tomos for the good of the Church in America.  May it be as God wills, for the triumph of Orthodoxy and the salvation of souls. 


And the next time someone mentions that there are no longer true elders, saints, or that the OCA is somehow "not mature enough to be autocephalous" (i.e. blastphems against the Holy Spirit) in the Orthodox Church, I will point this out. Pictures speak a thousand words. It was evident when he was chosen to head the OCA, and much, much more evident by his witness the past few days for the entire Orthodox community, that His Beatitude is the true primate of the Autocephalous Church in America.

Not once in my entire life have a seen such a witness from other leaders in our Orthodox Church in the United States. God grant His Beatitude Met. Jonah+ many, many years, preserve oh God your Holy Orthodox Church and the autocephalous church in the United States. Glory to God in the highest for such witness.

We have our Patriarch right before our very eyes. He who has eyes to see, let him see. Axios Holy Father Jonah+!!

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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #234 on: May 30, 2010, 08:49:28 PM »
Several posts have indicated the names of all the Bishops present at the EA.  However, this list is more comprehensive as to which jurisdiction, exarchate, metropolinate, patriarchate, etc. they may represent.  Thanks to Chris Orr at Orrologion for providing this:  http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2010/05/episcopal-rollcall-may-2010-new-york.html

Archbishop Demetrios, Chairman [Constantinople]
Metropolitan Philip, Chairman [Antioch]
Archbishop Justinian, Vice Chairman [Moscow]
Bishop Basil, Secretary [Antioch]
Archbishop Antony, TrVice easurer [Constantinople - Ukrainian]

[Constantinople]

Metropolitan Iakovos [Greek]
Metropolitan Constantine [Ukrainian]
Metropolitan Athenagoras
Metropolitan Methodios [Greek]
Metropolitan Isaiah [Greek]
Metropolitan Nicholas [Greek]
Metropolitan Alexios [Greek]
Metropolitan Nikitas
Metropolitan Nicholas [Carpatho-Russian]
Metropolitan Gerasimos [Greek]
Metropolitan Evangelos [Greek]
Metropolitan Paisios [Chrysovalantou]
Archbishop Yurij [Ukrainian]
Bishop Christopher
Bishop Vikentios [Chrysovalantou]
Bishop Savas [Greek]
Bishop Andonios [Greek]
Bishop Ilia [Albanian]
Bishop Ilarion
Bishop Andriy [Greek]
Bishop Demetrios
Bishop Daniel [Ukrainian]

My computer is acting up, so I don't know why my comments are included in the quote.
The following should read: 
Archbishop Yuri - Ukrainian - Canada
Bishop Ilarion - Ukrainian - Canada
Bishop Andriy - Ukrainian - Canada

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« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 10:01:28 AM by arimethea »
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #235 on: May 31, 2010, 10:10:04 AM »
Please keep the discussion of this topic focused on the Assembly. There are plenty of other threads that discuss the difference between the traditions out there already.

-Arimethea, Liturgy Section Moderator
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #236 on: June 01, 2010, 10:18:58 PM »
Do we have a complete list of the bishops who did not come?

Have all the EA (except Oceania) met now?  It has been brought to my attention that the Phanar's Exarch in Australia is refusing to convent a EA.  So much for obedience.

Does anyone know why no EA was convened for the Middle East?  South Asia? East Asia?
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Offline ag_vn

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #237 on: June 02, 2010, 03:24:27 AM »
In Europe, I think till now only the EA for Italy and Malta met in the headquarters of the Greek Metropolis in Venice on November 16-17, 2009. Present were Metropolitan Gennadios of Italy and Malta (Ecumenical Patriarchate), Archbishop Gabriel of Komana (Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe, Ecumenical Patriarchate), Archbishop Innocent of Chersonese (Moscow Patriarchate) and Bishop Tikhon, then administrator of the Bulgarian Diocese of Western and Central Europe (Bulgarian Patriarchate). Strangely, there was no Serbian and Romanian bishops.

Is there need for an EA for the Middle East in the canonical territories of the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem?

Which are the Orthodox jurisdictions in South Asia and East Asia?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 03:34:04 AM by ag_vn »

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #238 on: June 02, 2010, 09:50:44 AM »
Do we have a complete list of the bishops who did not come?

Met Maximos (Greek - Pittsburgh)
Met John (Ukrainian - Canada)
Met Sotirios (Greek - Toronto)
Abp Antonio (Antioch - Mexico)
Abp Alypy (ROCOR - Chicago)
Abp Kirill (ROCOR - San Francisco)
Bp Daniel (ROCOR - Old Believers)
Bp Longin (Serbia)
Bp Mitrophan (Serbia)
Bp George (Serbia - Canada)
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #239 on: June 02, 2010, 09:53:54 AM »
Do we have a complete list of the bishops who did not come?

Met Maximos (Greek - Pittsburgh)
Met John (Ukrainian - Canada)
Met Sotirios (Greek - Toronto)
Abp Antonio (Antioch - Mexico)
Abp Alypy (ROCOR - Chicago)
Abp Kirill (ROCOR - San Francisco)
Bp Daniel (ROCOR - Old Believers)
Bp Longin (Serbia)
Bp Mitrophan (Serbia)
Bp George (Serbia - Canada)

His Grace, Bishop Daniel had died before the meeting took place, and Met John has retired due to his health.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #240 on: June 02, 2010, 10:06:55 AM »
His Grace, Bishop Daniel had died before the meeting took place, and Met John has retired due to his health.

Yes. And a couple others are very sick as well.
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #241 on: June 02, 2010, 10:31:56 AM »
In Europe, I think till now only the EA for Italy and Malta met in the headquarters of the Greek Metropolis in Venice on November 16-17, 2009. Present were Metropolitan Gennadios of Italy and Malta (Ecumenical Patriarchate), Archbishop Gabriel of Komana (Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe, Ecumenical Patriarchate), Archbishop Innocent of Chersonese (Moscow Patriarchate) and Bishop Tikhon, then administrator of the Bulgarian Diocese of Western and Central Europe (Bulgarian Patriarchate). Strangely, there was no Serbian and Romanian bishops.
Do we know if that was by accident or design (whether like the Greeks of Canada, the Greek jurisdiciton of Australia, or the Polish Bishops of Brazil)?

Quote
Is there need for an EA for the Middle East in the canonical territories of the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem?

We might see an issue developing in Africa with the Russians now. I hope not, and the agreement between Alexandria and Moscow seems to resemble that between Antioch and Moscow/SF/New York when St. Raphael set up the Syrian Episcopate.  But something to watch. If we had a native (Arab, Black African or even Greek) Pope, I'm sure something would be in the works for the Greeks in Africa.

Jerusalem seems to be expanding itself in the jurisdiction of Antioch and All the East.  In the U.A.E. there is/was a situation brewing: the government was actually allowing Churches to be built for the foreignors, and I understand that Greek and Serbian Churches were planned.  With the bust in the economy, I don't know if that has all been put on hold, like so much there.

Quote
Which are the Orthodox jurisdictions in South Asia and East Asia?
Traditionally, it is either Antioch in the Western half and South, Moscow in the East and North.  Now, of course, the Ecumenical Patriarch is in both places.  I'm not sure if there are any others at present.
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Offline ag_vn

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #242 on: June 02, 2010, 12:50:06 PM »
Do we know if that was by accident or design (whether like the Greeks of Canada, the Greek jurisdiction of Australia, or the Polish Bishops of Brazil)?

http://www.bg-patriarshia.bg/news.php?id=15020

According to the site of the Bulgarian Patriarchate, they were invited by the Greek Metropolitan, implementing the decisions of the Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference, which met in Chambésy, Switzerland in June 2009. There is no mention of the Serbians and Romanians.

Quote
We might see an issue developing in Africa with the Russians now. I hope not, and the agreement between Alexandria and Moscow seems to resemble that between Antioch and Moscow/SF/New York when St. Raphael set up the Syrian Episcopate.  But something to watch. If we had a native (Arab, Black African or even Greek) Pope, I'm sure something would be in the works for the Greeks in Africa.

At present, there are Russian churches in four African states - Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco and South Africa. As far as I know, they commemorate either the Patriarch of Alexandria or the local Alexandrian bishop. There is also Serbian church in South Africa, no idea who they commemorate.

http://vbox7.com/play:2b620388 - video for the Russian church in Tunis, Tunisia.

Quote
Jerusalem seems to be expanding itself in the jurisdiction of Antioch and All the East.  In the U.A.E. there is/was a situation brewing: the government was actually allowing Churches to be built for the foreignors, and I understand that Greek and Serbian Churches were planned.  With the bust in the economy, I don't know if that has all been put on hold, like so much there.

Jerusalem has jurisdiction only over Qatar, the problem is that it is canonical territory of the Patriarchate of Antioch. In the UAE, these Greek/Roum churches in Dubai and Abu Dhabi are actually the churches of the local Antiochian Archdiocese. There is also a Russian Orthodox parish in the UAE with church being built in Sharjah, which is served by the head of the Russian church in Iran Hegumen Alexander Zarkeshev, but I don't know whether he commemorates the Antiochian Metropolitan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aEt6AKLyDQ - report of Russia Today Arabic for the future Russian church in Sharjah.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 12:56:00 PM by ag_vn »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #243 on: June 03, 2010, 06:25:23 PM »
I am sorry y'all for not bringing this up earlier. What gives with Metropolitan Methodios of Boston who has wedged himself between the primates who are lined up behind the officers of the EA? Strange indeed.

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #244 on: June 03, 2010, 06:35:07 PM »
I am sorry y'all for not bringing this up earlier. What gives with Metropolitan Methodios of Boston who has wedged himself between the primates who are lined up behind the officers of the EA? Strange indeed.
I wondered that myself, but I fear I already know the answer.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #245 on: June 03, 2010, 06:43:21 PM »
I am sorry y'all for not bringing this up earlier. What gives with Metropolitan Methodios of Boston who has wedged himself between the primates who are lined up behind the officers of the EA? Strange indeed.
I wondered that myself, but I fear I already know the answer.

I wondered too but I haven't a clue. Seemed odd to me.

Offline serb1389

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #246 on: June 03, 2010, 09:15:54 PM »
I am sorry y'all for not bringing this up earlier. What gives with Metropolitan Methodios of Boston who has wedged himself between the primates who are lined up behind the officers of the EA? Strange indeed.
I wondered that myself, but I fear I already know the answer.

It could have been a height thing... 8)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #247 on: June 03, 2010, 10:43:05 PM »
I am sorry y'all for not bringing this up earlier. What gives with Metropolitan Methodios of Boston who has wedged himself between the primates who are lined up behind the officers of the EA? Strange indeed.
I wondered that myself, but I fear I already know the answer.

It could have been a height thing... 8)

....looking over the varying heights throughout the crowd, and a certain metropolitan standing literally in the midst of all the primates of North America, hardly.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #248 on: June 04, 2010, 11:59:31 PM »
I am sorry y'all for not bringing this up earlier. What gives with Metropolitan Methodios of Boston who has wedged himself between the primates who are lined up behind the officers of the EA? Strange indeed.
I wondered that myself, but I fear I already know the answer.

It could have been a height thing... 8)

....looking over the varying heights throughout the crowd, and a certain metropolitan standing literally in the midst of all the primates of North America, hardly.

LOL.  Always the cynic.  have a drink on me brother...i got bigger things to worry about. 

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #249 on: June 05, 2010, 01:31:32 AM »
Strangely, there was no Serbian and Romanian bishops.
http://episcopia-italiei.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=350%3Aconsiliu-episcopal-ortodox-din-italia-i-malta&catid=45%3Acomunicate&Itemid=65&lang=ro
According to this site, the romanian bishop Siluan was there. But is the meeting from may 31 2010.

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #250 on: June 06, 2010, 07:12:58 PM »
Btw, ROCOR doesn't have to establish administrative unity with the OCA because of its Tomos' terms about "uncanonical ecclesiastical organizations."

Please refer me to the relevant text of the Tomos.  I am not following you on this.  You just referred to the canonical basis of ROCOR (Ukaze 362) and then seemed to suggest that ROCOR was uncanonical in 1970.  In the 1968 GOA Yearbook, it was ROCOR and not the Metropolia who was recognized as canonical. 

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/yearbook.aspx

If you look closely, the 1968 yearbook says that the GOA recognizes ROCOR in addition to, not instead of, the churches in SCOBA, which should include OCA.

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #251 on: January 25, 2011, 03:53:39 PM »
From an interview with Met. Hilarion of ROCOR. 

http://www.synod.com/synod/engdocuments/enart_mhinterviewonechurch.html


Q:  What is your opinion on the formation of single Local Orthodox Churches in America and Europe (not by nationality, but by territory)?

Met. Hilarion (ROCOR):  This is probably the right thing to do, but I doubt that Orthodox people of various nationalities in the USA today would agree on the formation there of a Local Church. Each jurisdiction (Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian) is very connected to its traditions and the particularities of its services, and over the next few generations it is doubtful that services would be conducted in one language, since new waves of immigrants keep arriving.

Metro. Hilarion got it right! 

I don't know of anyone in the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA (I don't know about the Bulgarian or Albanian) having to change its traditions, the praticularities of its services.  Alll the services I have been to (and they have been many), except at Dormition Monastery (which does several) have been in one language:Romanian. And yet they can manage to have good canonical order as well.
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #252 on: January 25, 2011, 04:53:05 PM »
And yet they can manage to have good canonical order as well.

Well, sort of.  If we're going to talk about overlapping diocese, then we must include those w/in the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA: we have 4 OCA parishes (1 "vanilla," 1 Romanian, 2 Bulgarian) in Akron who answer to 3 different bishops (well, 2, since the Bulgarians haven't elected a new bishop yet).
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #253 on: January 25, 2011, 05:36:08 PM »
And yet they can manage to have good canonical order as well.

Well, sort of.  If we're going to talk about overlapping diocese, then we must include those w/in the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA: we have 4 OCA parishes (1 "vanilla," 1 Romanian, 2 Bulgarian) in Akron who answer to 3 different bishops (well, 2, since the Bulgarians haven't elected a new bishop yet).
Since they all recognize the same primate in the same Holy Synod per Apostolic Canon 34, not a problem.  Now, in the same city and each bishop is in a different Holy Synod, answering to a different primate, that's a problem.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #254 on: January 25, 2011, 05:48:13 PM »
And yet they can manage to have good canonical order as well.

Well, sort of.  If we're going to talk about overlapping diocese, then we must include those w/in the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA: we have 4 OCA parishes (1 "vanilla," 1 Romanian, 2 Bulgarian) in Akron who answer to 3 different bishops (well, 2, since the Bulgarians haven't elected a new bishop yet).

Father, I don't mean to speak for Isa, but I think that Isa's point still stands even without overlapping jurisdictions.   A single bishop does not mean that we necessarily have "all English" or become uniform in rubrics.  Now the question is, will the Bishops agree to have "toleration" and actually learn the different traditions required to make this happen.   A Greek bishop has to learn not to walk into a Slavic parish and be offended that the junior priest did proskomedia, and reciprocally, a Slavic bishop cannot walk into a Greek parish and be unprepared to do proskomedia.  There are many other things as well.  Censing is different, protocol for clergy communion, etc.   In my opinion the bishop in a single jurisdictional structure would have to be prepared to serve in the tradition that said parish comes from at a hierarchical.  Priests would also have to learn to be polyrubrical for combined hierarchical celebrations.   

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #255 on: January 25, 2011, 05:50:06 PM »
And yet they can manage to have good canonical order as well.

Well, sort of.  If we're going to talk about overlapping diocese, then we must include those w/in the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA: we have 4 OCA parishes (1 "vanilla," 1 Romanian, 2 Bulgarian) in Akron who answer to 3 different bishops (well, 2, since the Bulgarians haven't elected a new bishop yet).
Since they all recognize the same primate in the same Holy Synod per Apostolic Canon 34, not a problem.  Now, in the same city and each bishop is in a different Holy Synod, answering to a different primate, that's a problem.

Sorry, I see that as I was typing, you had already answered. 

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #256 on: January 25, 2011, 05:53:50 PM »
And yet they can manage to have good canonical order as well.

Well, sort of.  If we're going to talk about overlapping diocese, then we must include those w/in the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA: we have 4 OCA parishes (1 "vanilla," 1 Romanian, 2 Bulgarian) in Akron who answer to 3 different bishops (well, 2, since the Bulgarians haven't elected a new bishop yet).

Father, I don't mean to speak for Isa, but I think that Isa's point still stands even without overlapping jurisdictions.   A single bishop does not mean that we necessarily have "all English" or become uniform in rubrics.  Now the question is, will the Bishops agree to have "toleration" and actually learn the different traditions required to make this happen.   A Greek bishop has to learn not to walk into a Slavic parish and be offended that the junior priest did proskomedia, and reciprocally, a Slavic bishop cannot walk into a Greek parish and be unprepared to do proskomedia.  There are many other things as well.  Censing is different, protocol for clergy communion, etc.   In my opinion the bishop in a single jurisdictional structure would have to be prepared to serve in the tradition that said parish comes from at a hierarchical.  Priests would also have to learn to be polyrubrical for combined hierarchical celebrations.   

It has been our experience in ACROD on the occasions when a Greek Bishop has participated in a celebration such as an anniversary or elevation or a funeral that they have been respectful of the cultural differences in our mode of service. I think, and fear, that a greater problem will be with the laity who are less likely to understand that within Orthodoxy there are many liturgical nuances of form that may seem 'strange' if they are not of your tradition. A whole lot of eduction with pastoral patience will be needed.

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #257 on: January 25, 2011, 05:54:31 PM »
Well, sort of.  If we're going to talk about overlapping diocese, then we must include those w/in the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA: we have 4 OCA parishes (1 "vanilla," 1 Romanian, 2 Bulgarian) in Akron who answer to 3 different bishops (well,  2, since the Bulgarians haven't elected a new bishop yet).
Since they all recognize the same primate in the same Holy Synod per Apostolic Canon 34, not a problem.  Now, in the same city and each bishop is in a different Holy Synod, answering to a different primate, that's a problem.

I would submit both as problematic; for a parish that is no more than 1/2 mile away to submit to a different bishop is as problematic as two bishops in the same city, for while in the former case the two hierarchs do not overlap in their official title city, they do overlap in every other city, including their own.  Being on the same synod is good, but their "not overlapping" is only a technicality; when the OCA has parishes in Detroit that answer to two different bishops, for example, that's a problem, especially when one of those bishops is less than an hour away!  It is, IMO, equally problematic viz-a-viz UOC/ACROD/GOA/Alb/JPA parishes who are operating de facto under the same system that is at play in the OCA: overlapping ethnic diocese within the context of a larger ruling synod.
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #258 on: January 25, 2011, 05:58:37 PM »
Father, I don't mean to speak for Isa, but I think that Isa's point still stands even without overlapping jurisdictions.   A single bishop does not mean that we necessarily have "all English" or become uniform in rubrics.  Now the question is, will the Bishops agree to have "toleration" and actually learn the different traditions required to make this happen.   A Greek bishop has to learn not to walk into a Slavic parish and be offended that the junior priest did proskomedia, and reciprocally, a Slavic bishop cannot walk into a Greek parish and be unprepared to do proskomedia.  There are many other things as well.  Censing is different, protocol for clergy communion, etc.   In my opinion the bishop in a single jurisdictional structure would have to be prepared to serve in the tradition that said parish comes from at a hierarchical.  Priests would also have to learn to be polyrubrical for combined hierarchical celebrations.   

And I'm not debating that over-arching point; I am, in fact, 100% in favor of it - and believe it will be successful immediately - against the positions of those who believe that we should have 1 church in the US (on the OCA model) with ethnic bishops for the different groups.  I think the movement toward administrative unity in this country will succeed while not demolishing the various traditions and languages of the local parishes.
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #259 on: January 25, 2011, 06:00:58 PM »
It has been our experience in ACROD on the occasions when a Greek Bishop has participated in a celebration such as an anniversary or elevation or a funeral that they have been respectful of the cultural differences in our mode of service. I think, and fear, that a greater problem will be with the laity who are less likely to understand that within Orthodoxy there are many liturgical nuances of form that may seem 'strange' if they are not of your tradition. A whole lot of eduction with pastoral patience will be needed.

I think someone was wise (I don't remember in which thread it came up) to bring up the RC situation 3 generations ago: ethnic parishes, with little cross-over.  This has changed over time, with the parishes free to choose whether they would hold on to their particular heritage, while also understanding that when they traveled they could be exposed to other cultures (a Pole going to an Italian church, for example) within the RC communion and still be ok.
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #260 on: January 26, 2011, 09:09:20 AM »
I think someone was wise (I don't remember in which thread it came up) to bring up the RC situation 3 generations ago: ethnic parishes, with little cross-over.  This has changed over time, with the parishes free to choose whether they would hold on to their particular heritage, while also understanding that when they traveled they could be exposed to other cultures (a Pole going to an Italian church, for example) within the RC communion and still be ok.

Isn't it like that now?

I belong to a Ukrainian Church, however, I've often gone to other Orthodox Churches - Serbian, Romanian, Russian, Bulgarian, etc....and also thought it was "okay".


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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #261 on: January 26, 2011, 11:45:32 AM »
And yet they can manage to have good canonical order as well.
Well, sort of.  If we're going to talk about overlapping diocese, then we must include those w/in the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA: we have 4 OCA parishes (1 "vanilla," 1 Romanian, 2 Bulgarian) in Akron who answer to 3 different bishops (well, 2, since the Bulgarians haven't elected a new bishop yet).
Father, I don't mean to speak for Isa, but I think that Isa's point still stands even without overlapping jurisdictions.   A single bishop does not mean that we necessarily have "all English" or become uniform in rubrics.  Now the question is, will the Bishops agree to have "toleration" and actually learn the different traditions required to make this happen.   A Greek bishop has to learn not to walk into a Slavic parish and be offended that the junior priest did proskomedia, and reciprocally, a Slavic bishop cannot walk into a Greek parish and be unprepared to do proskomedia.  There are many other things as well.  Censing is different, protocol for clergy communion, etc.   In my opinion the bishop in a single jurisdictional structure would have to be prepared to serve in the tradition that said parish comes from at a hierarchical.  Priests would also have to learn to be polyrubrical for combined hierarchical celebrations.   

It has been our experience in ACROD on the occasions when a Greek Bishop has participated in a celebration such as an anniversary or elevation or a funeral that they have been respectful of the cultural differences in our mode of service. I think, and fear, that a greater problem will be with the laity who are less likely to understand that within Orthodoxy there are many liturgical nuances of form that may seem 'strange' if they are not of your tradition. A whole lot of eduction with pastoral patience will be needed.
Indeed, a whole lot of education will be needed. 

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #262 on: January 26, 2011, 12:02:42 PM »
I think someone was wise (I don't remember in which thread it came up) to bring up the RC situation 3 generations ago: ethnic parishes, with little cross-over.  This has changed over time, with the parishes free to choose whether they would hold on to their particular heritage, while also understanding that when they traveled they could be exposed to other cultures (a Pole going to an Italian church, for example) within the RC communion and still be ok.

Isn't it like that now?

I belong to a Ukrainian Church, however, I've often gone to other Orthodox Churches - Serbian, Romanian, Russian, Bulgarian, etc....and also thought it was "okay".

It is usually like that now; I just brought up an extreme example to demonstrate that major changes can happen within the span of a generation or three.
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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #263 on: January 26, 2011, 02:34:56 PM »
I think someone was wise (I don't remember in which thread it came up) to bring up the RC situation 3 generations ago: ethnic parishes, with little cross-over.  This has changed over time, with the parishes free to choose whether they would hold on to their particular heritage, while also understanding that when they traveled they could be exposed to other cultures (a Pole going to an Italian church, for example) within the RC communion and still be ok.
Isn't it like that now?  I belong to a Ukrainian Church, however, I've often gone to other Orthodox Churches - Serbian, Romanian, Russian, Bulgarian, etc....and also thought it was "okay".
It is usually like that now; I just brought up an extreme example to demonstrate that major changes can happen within the span of a generation or three.

To some degree it is like that now.  We can even see the transition in the living generations of RCs.   Just as an example, Bill O'Reilly calls himself an "Irish Catholic," while two generations younger will simply identify themselves as "Catholic."  While that older generation of RCs will attend other parishes, they will still belong to a traditionally Irish (or for others Polish, Italian, etc.) parish, and the younger ones simply belong to the nearest parish that they like.  In Orthodoxy, largely the younger generation is now at the point where O'Reilly's generation was back in the day, in my opinion.     

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #264 on: September 15, 2011, 11:12:43 AM »
Glory to Jesus Christ,

 The Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America has organized a committee, "Committee for Canonical Regional Planning". The description is as follows. The Committee for Canonical Regional Planning will formulate a plan to organize all the Orthodox faithful of every jurisdiction in the Region on a canonical basis.

 I thought this was great that this committee would be organizing all of the Orthodox in the region, regardless of canonical status, towards a unified church. I had recently sent them an e-mail asking if this committee would be approaching Orthodox Churches outside of the Canonical Bishops(SCOBA).  Their response was that only the canonical churches would be affected.

 I was disappointed that many of these "other" Orthodox Churches would not be approached and at least given the chance to be part of a unified canonical church.

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #265 on: September 15, 2011, 11:20:38 AM »
Glory to Jesus Christ,

 The Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America has organized a committee, "Committee for Canonical Regional Planning". The description is as follows. The Committee for Canonical Regional Planning will formulate a plan to organize all the Orthodox faithful of every jurisdiction in the Region on a canonical basis.

 I thought this was great that this committee would be organizing all of the Orthodox in the region, regardless of canonical status, towards a unified church. I had recently sent them an e-mail asking if this committee would be approaching Orthodox Churches outside of the Canonical Bishops(SCOBA).  Their response was that only the canonical churches would be affected.

I was disappointed that many of these "other" Orthodox Churches would not be approached and at least given the chance to be part of a unified canonical church.
I'm confused by this. Those non-canonical groups generally want nothing to do with us anyway. I do know ROCOR has been welcoming to the groups that wish to abandon their schisms and be a part of the Church. What would you like seen done?

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #266 on: September 16, 2011, 11:34:19 AM »
Glory to Jesus Christ,

  I realize that a number of these Orthodox Churches, outside of Canonical Orthodoxy, do not want anything to do with us, but I am a firm believer in communication and dialogue. I have done my own research on many of these groups, and I have found, other than the calender issue, it appears more political than anything else. It just bothers me that the SCOBA members continue this theological dialogue with the Roman Church, instead of trying to reconcile any differences with these other Orthodox Churches. This committee confronts many tasks,and I hope and pray that the results will be towards a unified Orthodox Church.

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #267 on: September 16, 2011, 12:10:53 PM »
Glory to Jesus Christ,

  I realize that a number of these Orthodox Churches, outside of Canonical Orthodoxy, do not want anything to do with us, but I am a firm believer in communication and dialogue. I have done my own research on many of these groups, and I have found, other than the calender issue, it appears more political than anything else. It just bothers me that the SCOBA members continue this theological dialogue with the Roman Church, instead of trying to reconcile any differences with these other Orthodox Churches. This committee confronts many tasks,and I hope and pray that the results will be towards a unified Orthodox Church.

I guess I do not understand why you feel an effort for entry of non-canonical Orthodox churches into canonical Orthoodxy is to be conducted at a regional planning meeting for canonical Orthodox churches. There have been discussions to resolve issues between these various churches, but having non-canonical churches attend a planning meeting held among canonical churches is like inviting ping pong executives to a meeting for a tennis association.

If the canonical churches want to meet to discuss planning issues by region, then that is one thing.But the issues between canonical and non-canonical churches are for a different kind of meeting, and one where inviting the non-canonical churches to attend to just watch the canonical churches do their business is just odd.
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #268 on: September 18, 2011, 08:42:41 AM »
Glory to Jesus Christ,

 Like I previously stated, these theological discussions with the Roman Catholic Church continue, but we refuse to have any dialogue with these non-canonical Orthodox groups. We should be straightening out our own back yard, and then consider dialogue with the heterodox, as long as this dialogue invites them to return to the Orthodox Church, through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

 There is no excuse that this committee cannot perform two tasks, dealing with the canonical churches first, and then the  non-canonical churches.

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Re: Any news yet about the bishops meeting in NYC?
« Reply #269 on: September 18, 2011, 09:44:44 AM »
Glory to Jesus Christ,

 Like I previously stated, these theological discussions with the Roman Catholic Church continue, but we refuse to have any dialogue with these non-canonical Orthodox groups. We should be straightening out our own back yard, and then consider dialogue with the heterodox, as long as this dialogue invites them to return to the Orthodox Church, through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

 There is no excuse that this committee cannot perform two tasks, dealing with the canonical churches first, and then the  non-canonical churches.

The reality is that these schismatic groups do not want to dialogue. The door is open for them to talk but, they do not want to talk because of of the principals in which they entered into schism in the first place. I would dare say that the "canonical" Church would rejoice if these "non-canonical" groups would even be willing to sit down and have a serious conversation.

When there is a fight between two brothers, they know what the issues are and both sides are just waiting on each other to apologize. When distant cousins talk, they need to talk so that someday they may become like brothers.

Going back to the task of this committee. I think one of the hopes is that if we are united and, have a proper administrative structure, there will be less confusion about who is the Orthodox Church as a whole. There was discussion at one point to create two list: who was in and who was out. The wise decision was to just create one list of who was members because there are various degrees of who is out. A prime example under the old SCOBA system would have been ROCOR. Twenty years ago most of the members of SCOBA would have considered ROCOR to be fully Orthodox, just not in communion with them by their own choice. The break was very easy for the members of SCOBA to accept when the division was over, ROCOR said we are now in communion and everyone else said good, about time. To have put them in a list as a non-member with the likes of one of the Ofiesh groups would not have been fair to ROCOR.

Once our house is in order, these groups who claim to be Orthodox will have to look long and hard and be honest with themselves. They will have to choose to talk with us or keep on refusing and doing their own thing. Remember these non-canonical groups are not part of the canonical Church for a reason and, in every case it is their own choice.
Joseph