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Author Topic: I am against electoral democracy  (Read 2828 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 20, 2004, 02:21:43 AM »

I know that these next two years there'll be important elections in our countries. Money is already moving from side to side, candidates are already starting the race to take a piece of the democratic cake.

There are honest people who are desperated and believe that it's possible to change the way things are through elections, participating and giving their time and money, helping to support the electoral system.

I believe democracy to be a farse because of this:

1. It destroys the unity of the nation and divides us. The multi-party system's political factions and its politicians keep our people fighting with each other, while the bankers, the rich corporations are all united in the preservation of the empire.

2. It cheats and divides the people who end up hating each other for no real cause. Liberal democracy does not have space for real options of change in opposition to the current establishment or present clear ideological possitions.

If anyone tries to defy the establishment, its machinery will work for its destruction. No matter how much the multi-party factions simulate to fight in the medias, if someone defies them they'll all join in their liberal cruzade. There's the example of Jean Marie Le Pen in France.

3. Democracy and elections do not confer authority most of the time. Separation of powers belonging to different factions left the nation in a state of permanent anarchy and under shifting sands of endless discussions.

The few acceptable politicians cannot do what is good for the nation but must do what is popular to preserve their votes. They cannot go against those members of their own group involved in scandalous corruption, evil and inmorality as they depend on their support. And they cannot attack those political enemies who preceded him as his own liscencious business may become public too.

4. Electoral democracy serves international business, the national oligarchy and is an offense against common sense and love for our brothers. Year by year, enormous amounts of State-sponsored money are used to support the elecoral system, political factions competing, advertisements in the press and all kinds of shameful activities while our people lack food, education and shelter.

Parties and groups who take a piece of the democratic cake owe their existence to international organizations such as the UN institutions, IMF and the World Bank that make "generous" donations to keep the lie working. At the same time, political parties are supported by rich corporations, massonic lodges and business men outside and inside the nation who by spending great amounts of money, ensure their full control of industry and the possibility to continue plundering our natural sources.

Candidates, when elected, no matter what colour they had, become employees, mere gerents of the several national branch shops of the New World Order.

5. Liberal democracy preaches and supports a false concept of freedom which encourages inmorality and pornography; a false concept of compassion which encourages euthanasia and abortion; equalitarianism that destroys the family as there must not be any difference between men and women; an infamous idea of plurality which leads people to accept the marriage of gay men and women; the false equality in which religions minorities who have given nothing to the nation and who arrived much later such as the Muslims and the Evangelicals must have the same recognition than the members of the Church of Christ... and most of all, the principles of internationalism and massonic brotherhood that maks us slaves of the global dictatorship.

The system can be as broad as it can be as long as all there accept the principles dictated by the secularist and liberal establishment. People must understand that no matter what they promise you, they're all the same

For these an other reasons, I repudiate this system.
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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2004, 09:36:38 AM »

"Democracy is the worst form of government. Except dor all the others!"

Winston Churchill
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2004, 09:39:42 AM »

It's a good thing that America is NOT a democracy but rather a REPUBLIC
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2004, 09:39:54 AM »

Revolution

You say you'll change the constitution
Well you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well you know
You better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know know it's gonna be alright
Alright Alright  

John Lennon
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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2004, 11:03:00 AM »

Dear Administrators:

I made a mistake. I wanted to post this in FreeForAll forum. Can you please move it there cause it doesn't belong here.
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2004, 11:29:55 AM »

I certainly don't feel like I'm in a democracy at all. A chance to vote for Citizen Kang or Citizen Kodos every 5 years and then they do what they choose. And with a large majority for one party they can do even more of what they choose, even eliminate the second chamber so that they don't have to worry about any difficult questions.

Some democracy

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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2004, 11:43:25 AM »

Adams, John An Essay on Man's Lust for Power
August 29, 1763
Topic: Democracy

[D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few.

Madison, James Federalist No. 10
November 23, 1787
Topic: Democracy

[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.

Ames, Fisher speech in the Massachusetts Ratifying Convention
January 15, 1788
Topic: Democracy

The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.

Adams, John letter to John Taylor
April 15, 1814
Topic: Democracy

Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.



Adams, John Thoughts on Government
1776
Topic: Republican Government

That, as a republic is the best of governments, so that particular arrangements of the powers of society, or, in other words, that form of government which is best contrived to secure an impartial and exact execution of the laws, is the best of republics.

Hamilton, Alexander Federalist No. 9
1787
Topic: Republican Government

The regular distribution of power into distinct departments; the introduction of legislative balances and checks; the institution of courts composed of judges holding their offices during good behavior; the representation of the people in the legislature by deputies of their own election... They are means, and powerful means, by which the excellences of republican govenrment may be retained and its imperfections lessened or avoided.

Jefferson, Thomas Letter to William Hunter
March 11, 1790
Topic: Republican Government

The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind.



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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2004, 11:55:40 AM »

It's a good thing that America is NOT a democracy but rather a REPUBLIC

How is it different?

Republic : A state in which the sovereign power resides in the whole body of the people, and is exercised by representatives elected by them; a commonwealth

Democracy: Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives

Seems the same to me.
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2004, 12:07:20 PM »

Democracy, in and of itself is not a bad thing, just like communism, in it's purist form would be a utopian society, and therefore perfect.  You can not blame a form of government for human failings.  It is human greed, corruption, & lust for power that makes governments what they are, not the concepts of government laid down by Aristotle & the rest of the ancient philosphers.
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2004, 12:11:48 PM »

Peter: The difference between the two is centered around what is the rule of order.  In a true democracy, it is the whim of the people.  Whatever strikes the fancy of the people is the rule of order of the day.  In a Republic, the body of law is to be the rule of order.  Why else would it be so important to decide the Constitutionality of a given law?  It is also why the nature of the judiciary - that they be limited in their powers and reach - was so important to our founding fathers.
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2004, 12:12:50 PM »

Ania: democracy is mob rule.  And anyone who would say that communism is not of itself evil is mistaken.
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2004, 12:19:25 PM »

There are many types of democracy. You cannot say that democracy is mob rule - only a particular type of democracy calls for the involvement of all electors in most decisions. Switzerland is such a democracy and can hardly be called 'mob rule'. Neither is the parliamentary democracy of Great Britain 'mob rule'.

There are types of democracies and types of republics.

You are very mistaken if you think that in any of the democratic republics of Europe there is 'mob rule'. In fact I fail to see how America is not a democratic republic. If it is not then it is an un-democratic republic? This surely would put it in the class of the mnany totalitarian republics which are scattered across the world.

I am sure that in fact the US is a democracy - using the word as most people do.
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2004, 12:28:42 PM »

The communism, which wasn't communism at all, of Stalin, Lenin, Mao, is evil, yes.  However, the idea of a utopian society, classless, without private ownership, and no need of anything, of everyone sharing responsiblity and working together to create perfection, is not.  It's not practical, & would never work, since human greed, lust for power, laziness, etc. will always get in the way.  Marx & others of his era used that utopian idea to justify and incorperated violence, etc, to try to distory the classes and create 1 class.  Lenin, Stalin, & the rest used it just as an excuse to bring themselves to power, and then abuse the people under them.   Does anyone out there know, who actually coined the word "communism?"  I would go on explaining, but my head is full of fuzz, a leftover from being sick the last 4 days...  perhaps later.
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2004, 12:31:29 PM »

Just a reminder guys, we're a democratic Republic (whatever that is really supposed to mean).
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2004, 01:20:24 PM »

Ania,

     If it would never work in reality, then the philosophy of it, the idea of it, must also be flawed and bad in itself as a theory of government.

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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2004, 01:38:22 PM »

Like any other form of government, it can work with small or medium nations or groups.  The main problem is that communism has never been used to empower the working class but to elevate a person or persons into a dictatorship.  In true communism there would be no heroes and no charismatic leaders holding the system together, you would not need it.  In the dictatorships that have masqueraded as communism an elite few took the resources of the workers and used them to live in luxury, subjugating the people into a substandard living to keep the overseers in opulence.  

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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2004, 01:47:49 PM »

There are many types of democracy. You cannot say that democracy is mob rule - only a particular type of democracy calls for the involvement of all electors in most decisions. Switzerland is such a democracy and can hardly be called 'mob rule'. Neither is the parliamentary democracy of Great Britain 'mob rule'.

There are types of democracies and types of republics.

You are very mistaken if you think that in any of the democratic republics of Europe there is 'mob rule'. In fact I fail to see how America is not a democratic republic. If it is not then it is an un-democratic republic? This surely would put it in the class of the mnany totalitarian republics which are scattered across the world.

I am sure that in fact the US is a democracy - using the word as most people do.

Democracy
A system of government in which effective political power is vested in the people. In older usage (for example, in the writings of the classical Greek and Roman philosophers or in the Federalist Papers), the term was reserved exclusively for governmental systems in which the populace exercised this power directly through general assemblies or referenda to decide the most important questions of law or policy. In more contemporary usage, the term has been broadened to include also what the American Founding Fathers called a republic -- a governmental system in which the power of the people is normally exercised only indirectly, through freely elected representatives who are supposed to make government decisions according to the popular will, or at least according to the supposed values and interests of the population.


Republic
Originally, any form of government not headed by an hereditary monarch. In modern American usage, the term usually refers more specifically to a form of government (a.k.a. "representative democracy") in which ultimate political power is theoretically vested in the people but in which popular control is exercised only intermittently and indirectly through the popular election of government officials and/or delegates to a legislative assembly rather than directly through frequent mass assemblies or legislation by referendum.


Dictatorship
Government by a single person (or group) whose discretion in using the powers and resources of the state is unrestrained by any fixed legal or constitutional rules and who is (are) in no effective way held responsible to the general population or their elected representatives.


Oligarchy
Any system of government in which virtually all political power is held by a very small number of wealthy but otherwise unmeritorious people who shape public policy primarily to benefit themselves financially through direct subsidies to their agricultural estates or business firms, lucrative government contracts, and protectionist measures aimed at damaging their economic competitors -- while displaying little or no concern for the broader interests of the rest of the citizenry. "Oligarchy" is also used as a collective term to denote all the individual members of the small corrupt ruling group in such a system. The term always has a negative or derogatory connotation in both contemporary and classical usage, in contrast to aristocracy (which sometimes has a derogatory connotation in modern usage, but never in classical).


Monarchy
A form of rule in which there is a single head of state, a monarch, with the title of King (or Queen) or its equivalent; in which the monarch holds his or her office for life; in which the position of monarch normally descends by rules of heredity only to members of a specific royal family; and where the monarch is popularly believed to be possessed of a religious or similar symbolic significance for the state and its institutions that legitimate his or her privileges. When the monarch rules with full or nearly full executive, legislative and judicial powers practically unlimited by constitutional or legal restrictions, the system is often referred to as an "absolute monarchy." When the powers of the monarch are effectively limited and restricted by law (at least to insure respect for the subjects' recognized rights to personal freedom and property and often also to limit the monarch's powers of legislation and taxation), the system is normally referred to as "constitutional monarchy."

Autocracy
A system of government in which supreme political power to direct all the activities of the state is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control (except perhaps for the implicit threat of coup d'etat or mass insurrection).


Theocracy
A form of government in which the clergy exercise or bestow all legitimate political authority and in which religious law is dominant over civil law and enforced by state agencies.


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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2004, 01:51:36 PM »

That's because they are the same. Just another one in a long list of George  (John Wayne) W Bush's idiotic statements. Although "Bring Em On" would have to take the cake.

How is it different?

Republic : A state in which the sovereign power resides in the whole body of the people, and is exercised by representatives elected by them; a commonwealth

Democracy: Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives

Seems the same to me.
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2004, 01:55:33 PM »

The communism, which wasn't communism at all, of Stalin, Lenin, Mao, is evil, yes.  However, the idea of a utopian society, classless, without private ownership, and no need of anything, of everyone sharing responsiblity and working together to create perfection, is not.  It's not practical, & would never work, since human greed, lust for power, laziness, etc. will always get in the way.  Marx & others of his era used that utopian idea to justify and incorperated violence, etc, to try to distory the classes and create 1 class.  Lenin, Stalin, & the rest used it just as an excuse to bring themselves to power, and then abuse the people under them.   Does anyone out there know, who actually coined the word "communism?"  I would go on explaining, but my head is full of fuzz, a leftover from being sick the last 4 days...  perhaps later.

Communism by its nature supposes several things:

1 there is no God

2 Man is inherently good

3 private property is wrong

4 all men are equal.

I'll limit my list to these 4 points for now.  ALL 4 of these notions are against scripture.

It is foolish to seek to establish an Utopia on earth.  There will be no utopia on earth until Christ returns.
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2004, 02:29:25 PM »

Communism by its nature supposes several things:

1 there is no God

2 Man is inherently good

3 private property is wrong

4 all men are equal.

I'll limit my list to these 4 points for now.  ALL 4 of these notions are against scripture.

It is foolish to seek to establish an Utopia on earth.  There will be no utopia on earth until Christ returns.


Communism as an economic system does not suppose that there is no God.  One thing we have to remember is that communism as a political system and form of government springs from the economic system.  The driving force behind Marx and Engels' theories were the belief that economic freedom must come before political freedom.  For them, what could be more apropriately called "communalism" became the basis for their political theories.    

As for man being inherently good, since we are made in the image of God and endowed with a spiritual soul, intellect, a conscience and free will, we are inherently good.  We are, however, due to the fall, inclined to sin, but that does not make us inherently evil.  By our very nature, we are oriented towards God.  I believe the Catholic Catechism covers this in section 1700 or thereabouts.

All men are equal...in dignity.  Pure communism teaches that, as opposed to the lived out totalitarian version as practiced by the Bolsheviks of Russia and the Maoists of China.
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2004, 08:26:33 PM »

If man is only INCLINED to sin, it is possible for man to live without sin. If that is possible, what need do we have for a savior?  Man can save himself.
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2004, 12:07:26 AM »

Max's views demonstrate very clearly why it's necessary to read the Fathers with the eyes of the Church.  They can't be understood outside of the Church.  St. Augustine is very troublesome in many ways because he is easy to misunderstand.  However, remember that this is an Orthodox board and Augustian theology had little impact on eastern Christianity.  

In the eastern tradition, sin is a personal act, not an act of nature, so Adam's sin is his alone.  There is no original sin.  However, the east recognizes the unity of mankind so humanity suffers from the consequences of Adam's sin, mortality.  This doesn't mean that eastern Tradition believes that it is possible for man to save himself.  Along with mortality, man inherits a greater urge to sin.  Simply put (admittedly it's never possible to discuss theology "simply") man inherits mortality from Adam, not sin, but sin is a consequence of mortality.  "Inclined to sin," doesn't perfectly capture this idea but it's not completely incorrect either.  It's not a perfect expression because the Fathers would believe there is more than a "tendency" to sin.  (incline = tend, lean or drawn to)  But they would not go so far as to believe that sin is an "essential," or "inherent" part of man's nature.  The eastern Fathers of course do not believe that man can save himself.  "God became man so that man could become God."  "Trampling down death by death..."  Redemption in the east is about overcoming death.  Without Christ, man will die.  Christ defeats death making man free of death and sinfulness which is a consequence of mortality.  (Admittedly this is an incredibly simplistic explanation so you if you want to find out more, I recommend reading books on Orthodox theology.)  

The western Church teaches that man is "inclined to sin," i.e. concupiscence.  Of course the western Church does not teach that man can save himself.  The western Church believes in "justification" and that without Christ, justification is not possible.  Salvation comes from God's grace and detaches man from sin.  The west's sacramental theology also demonstrates that the western Church while believing that man inherits an "inclination" to sin, does not teach that Christ is not necessary.  When we are baptized, we are "incorporated" into Christ's death and Resurrection, therefore salvation is not possible without Christ.  (again this is incredibly simplistic and find out more start with the Catechism)
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2004, 03:12:53 PM »

I had a professor in college that was insane.  He used to say "I don't believe in Democracy, because the average person is too stupid to decide their own future, much less that of everyone else.  I am not a communist because it leads to corruption and cronyism of the worst kind.  I am a monarchist.  Laugh if you will, but the beauty of the monarchy system is this:  The individual has much more freedom in a monarchy than they do in any other type of society.  Sure, you might be dirt poor, but at least you're free."

He was crazy. Cheesy

I love G.K. Chesterton's take on wealth & politics:  
The poor have occasionally objected to being governed poorly, the rich have always objected to being governed at all."
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2004, 05:29:58 PM »

In what way was he crazy? That's pretty much what I believe. Smiley
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