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Author Topic: Terrorism Is Free Speech?  (Read 3218 times) Average Rating: 0
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Br. Max, OFC
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« on: February 03, 2004, 09:55:14 AM »

Terrorism Is Free Speech
By Michael Radu
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 3, 2004


Freedom of speech permits supporting terrorism, as long as you are only providing "expert advice and assistance" to groups the federal government has designated as “foreign terrorist organizations.” So says a California district judge, in a decision that can only be disheartening for those on the frontlines of the struggle against terrorism. We can hope the decision will be set aside on appeal, but it nevertheless shows how vulnerable our legal instruments are against international terrorism -- and how powerful the influence is of those who would dismantle existing Homeland Security legislation.


The Decision

In a decision released January 26, Federal Judge Audrey B. Collins (Central District of California), ruled in Humanitarian Law Project, et al. v. Reno et al. that the U.S. Departments of State and Justice cannot stop groups from providing "expert advice and assistance" to either the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) in Turkey or the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) in Sri Lanka.

The plaintiffs had brought their suit in 1998, after passage of the Anti-Terrorism Law, most of which was initially upheld by Judge Collins. However, she agreed with the plaintiffs that the prohibition against providing "expert advice and assistance" was “impermissibly vague.” The newest decision comes in a new phase of the case based on the post-9/11 Patriot Act’s similar prohibitions. “The USA Patriot Act places no limitation on the type of expert advice and assistance which is prohibited and instead bans the provision of all expert advice and assistance regardless of its nature,” said Collins. She specifically cited the provision that makes it a crime to provide personnel and training to designated terrorist groups as unenforceable, saying that it was sufficiently vague to raise First and Fifth Amendment issues. (Surprisingly, she rejected arguments by the plaintiffs that the law was too general and that it gave the Secretary of State “virtually unreviewable authority” to designate a group as a foreign terrorist organization.)

As the New York Times noted [1], Judge Collins is the first federal judge actually to strike down part of the Patriot Act. But this is not the first legal challenge to aspects of the war on terror. California courts have made earlier attempts to weaken anti-terrorism legislation introduced in 1997. In 1998, the infamous Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that fundraising for the lawful activities of a foreign terrorist organization is protected by the First Amendment, if there is no specific intent to further the group’s illegal ends [2]. That decision, resulting from a complaint by pro-terrorist Arab groups, would have allowed Hamas, Palestinian Jihad and others to openly raise money in the United States. Had it not become moot after 2001, the decision also would have allowed most of those tried or indicted since 9/11 to remain free, and the terrorist-funding Islamic “charities” the Bush administration has closed down to remain open and active.  

Judge Audrey Collins, who was appointed to the court in 1994 by Bill Clinton, is a product of Affirmative Action. Her decision follows a familiar pattern of California jurisprudence that the Supreme Court routinely overrules in some 80 percent of the cases, far more than for any other court. Indeed, California judges are the ones who declared that God has no place in the Pledge of Allegiance and who have twice attempted to cripple the nation’s already limited legal defenses against terrorism.

continued @ http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12016
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"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2004, 10:46:01 AM »

The reason why the judge stomped on the provision is that it is an obvious backdoor for holding people indefinitely on vague charges of association without having to prove that those arrested have actually done anything criminal. Catching terrorists is a good thing but we need to do it as Americans do, not like presidents-for-life do.
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Jennifer
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2004, 03:49:29 PM »

The reason why the judge stomped on the provision is that it is an obvious backdoor for holding people indefinitely on vague charges of association without having to prove that those arrested have actually done anything criminal. Catching terrorists is a good thing but we need to do it as Americans do, not like presidents-for-life do.


Exactly, Keble.  

I get the feeling that *some* around here would like our current president to become a president-for-life.  Smiley  

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Br. Max, OFC
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2004, 07:55:15 PM »


I get the feeling that *some* around here would like our current president to become a president-for-life.  Smiley  



Jennifer what fool would want that? No one I have noticed.  

 BTW - Authoritarianism in is a LEFTIST principle. Smiley

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~jonjayray/leftauth.html
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"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2004, 08:29:52 PM »

Jennifer what fool would want that? No one I have noticed.  

 BTW - Authoritarianism in is a LEFTIST principle. Smiley


That would come as a surprise to the many dictators propped up by the US government through the years.  

But I'm not surprised you would make that claim because 1) you don't know history and 2) you're still caught up that "my daddy can beat up your daddy" form of discourse.  

Your assertion that you're not "fool" enough to want the current president to become a president-for-life is weakened by your support for the Patriot Act and other questionable acts by the current administration.  You don't fear the "Patriot" (put in quotes because no real patriot would support it) Act because it has sunset provisions but no lover of liberty, e.g. a good conservative, ever willingly gives the government even an inch.  You give them an inch, they'll take a mile, as the old saying goes.  We true patriots can see that any legislation taking away rights of Americans is the first step on the road to a dictatorship.  

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Br. Max, OFC
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2004, 08:46:00 PM »

Jennifer: if you mean by "History" the refabricated pablum being spewed forth in Public Schools and on most college campuses -  and by "know" you are referring to the biblical connotation of the word - you are right.  I do not "know history."  If instead you mean ACTUAL American History, I think my degree and certification as a Social Studies Teacher(meaning I am qualified to teach everything from psychology and sociology through to straight up history), AND my degree in American History refute your very thinly veiled ad hominem attack.


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"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2004, 09:09:23 PM »

Jennifer: if you mean by "History" the refabricated pablum being spewed forth in Public Schools and on most college campuses -  and by "know" you are referring to the biblical connotation of the word - you are right.  I do not "know history."  If instead you mean ACTUAL American History, I think my degree and certification as a Social Studies Teacher(meaning I am qualified to teach everything from psychology and sociology through to straight up history), AND my degree in American History refute your very thinly veiled ad hominem attack.


I didn't think it was so "thinly veiled."  I'll have to be more specific in the future.  

Frankly I'm shocked that someone with a degree in American History would ever trust the government's curtailment of civil liberties.  Although, I assume you believe they fed you "pablum" because you did receive this degree at a major college campus?  "Pablum" indeed, to believe in a wonderful government just because you see the "Lord" in his eyes when he speaks (or whatever it was that you wrote here a while back).  

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Br. Max, OFC
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2004, 11:01:43 PM »

Jennifer: what civil liberties are being curtailed?  you mean the freedom of religion? The right t o keep and bare arms?  or are you referring to the right to an abortion? Or the right to sodomy?
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"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2004, 11:44:18 PM »

Jennifer: what civil liberties are being curtailed?  you mean the freedom of religion? The right t o keep and bare arms?  or are you referring to the right to an abortion? Or the right to sodomy?


I wasn't aware that the "Patriot" Act curtailed the "right to an abortion," or the "right to sodomy?"  Once again those are "rights" that you don't understand and I'm tired of explaining it to you.  I asked you once, but never got a reply (not surprised that you dodged the question), do you think that the constitution protects your right to send your children to the school of your choice?  Where is "the right to send your children to the school of your choice" in the Constitution?  

To answer your question, the "Patriot" Act gives federal officials the authority to seize reading lists and other personal records, including medical records.  Just as a "zone of privacy" surrounds my home (no illegal search and seizure, for example), my medical records are private.  

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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2004, 12:19:58 AM »

BTW - Authoritarianism in is a LEFTIST principle. Smiley

Tyranny, unfortunately, is non-doctrinal.
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2004, 02:18:08 AM »

Jennifer: if you mean by "History" the refabricated pablum being spewed forth in Public Schools and on most college campuses -  and by "know" you are referring to the biblical connotation of the word - you are right.  I do not "know history."  If instead you mean ACTUAL American History, I think my degree and certification as a Social Studies Teacher(meaning I am qualified to teach everything from psychology and sociology through to straight up history), AND my degree in American History refute your very thinly veiled ad hominem attack.

You have heard of Pinochet?  Of the Shah?  Of the Marcoses?  Of Mr. Hussein before he got on our bad side?
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2004, 10:57:23 AM »

Isn't the "Patriot" Act also the one that lets the government hold a person for no reason for an indefinate ammount of time in an uspecified location?  
I know the Act is freaking out a lot of people in my church, as quite a few of them either lived under the Soviet regime, or are decendents of people who lived under it.  They see the Act as a step towards the totalitarian government who will control all aspects of our lives.  For them it is especially frightening, because in the Soviet era, at least they knew the enemy, now its not so easy to see.
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Br. Max, OFC
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2004, 01:07:42 PM »

I asked you once, but never got a reply (not surprised that you dodged the question), do you think that the constitution protects your right to send your children to the school of your choice?  Where is "the right to send your children to the school of your choice" in the Constitution?  

To answer your question, the "Patriot" Act gives federal officials the authority to seize reading lists and other personal records, including medical records.  Just as a "zone of privacy" surrounds my home (no illegal search and seizure, for example), my medical records are private.  



Oh that's quite simple my dear - it's in the constitution right next to the provisions for compulsory government sponsored secular-humanist education.

What of my civil liberties are being stolen from me by a law designed to thwart terrorism and with built in provisions for its own EXPIRATION.  Can you give examples of how the Patriot act has been USED to violate civil liberties? Or can you only offer the typical speculations?  YES there are some very dangerous aspects to the patriot act, but I’m willing to trust Aschroft.  His sucessor?  I’m not sure I will be able to trust.  Which is why I am glad that our current leadership had the wisdom to build in an expiration date.

THAT being said - your point about medical records has nothing to do with the article given.  The article given deals with aiding and abetting the enemy during a time of war.  In effect - it deals with treason.  SO if you would care to address the issue offered rather than trying to divert the topic in a lawyerly fashion onto a side issue, I would very grateful.

On A side note - is it any wonder that some 80% of these types of  cases decided by federal courts in California are overturned?
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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2004, 01:09:45 PM »

Tyranny, unfortunately, is non-doctrinal.


There have never been conservative tyrants - tyranny by it’s very nature is in conflict with conservative principals.  Oh I know there will be those who will say that Hitler was a conservative tyrant - but that would be because they are ignorant of what NAZI means.
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"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2004, 01:35:36 PM »

There have never been conservative tyrants - tyranny by it’s very nature is in conflict with conservative principals.  Oh I know there will be those who will say that Hitler was a conservative tyrant - but that would be because they are ignorant of what NAZI means.

Well, unfortunately for you, it is the world that controls the word "conservative". After all, I'm sure I could easily find plenty of liberals who would say that there have never been liberal tyrants because tyranny by its nature is in conflict with liberal principles. And they have a better argument for that than you do, I think.

But someone claiming to be a Christian religious shouldn't be making any of these arguments. Tyranny is rather obviously not about principle in any way, shape or form. It's about SIN. Liberal and conservative principles, whatever they may be, are about improving the human condition; tyranny is about not caring how much damage one does to the human condition.

What moderates of all stripes see is that supposedly rigid dedication to principle is an excellent avenue to tyranny, because it facilitates sinning (specifically, breaking the second great commandment). The reality thus becomes that it hardly matters whether the tyrants are "conservative" or "liberal" or "people's" or "socialist" or "patriotic" or even "christian". All that matters is that the tyrants hurt other people out of positions of power, denying all acts of correction or retribution.
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2004, 01:37:42 PM »

I'm assuming you mean "National Socialism".

That's true, and all nice and good.

But Hitler's system of government was fascist, which, by its very nature on the Political Spectrum, is conservative.

Don't let names fool you, Brother Max.  Hitler was a fascist far and above a "socialist".
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2004, 03:53:12 PM »

Definitions are imporant.  If one defines 'left' as adhering to a strong form of statism, then the Nazis can be identified as such.  Unlike fascist Italy, Hitler engineered a Gleichschaltung that can be seen as revolutionary.  There was not much resistance to it as it was forged in the name of German nationalism.

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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2004, 05:26:54 PM »

The problem is that "leftist" and "liberal" are not synonyms. Leftists are statists because they arise out of a context in which power conservatively serves those who already retain it by reason of wealth or social station. But that's not an American issue. In the USA the problem wasn't who had power, but what it was used to do, which is why you see patrician liberals and (relatively) lower class conservatives.

Indeed, the sense of noblesse oblige is a strong component of American liberalism up into the 1960s (in the '70s demands for entitlements pretty much take its place). The state got involved because it was apparent that, for reasons that varied in time and place, private action was either insufficient or not forthcoming. Some "leftists" squirrelled themselves away in the Roosevelt agencies, but plenty of others condemned the whole enterprise because they correctly understood that the power structures were going to stay just as they always were.

Further east, nearly everyone in the USA understood that the USSR might be leftist (which it certainly was) but that it was hardly liberal. The exception was a bunch of upper middle intellectuals who expected to be the beneficiaries of regime change. The fall of the USSR was a great embarrassment to them and they are hardly worthy of notice anymore.
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2004, 05:26:56 PM »

How about the term, "totalitarian."  I think of Facism and Communist as naturally totalitarian.  How about Shariah?Huh??  ISTM to be totalitarian too.
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Br. Max, OFC
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2004, 09:04:29 PM »

Keble: did you read the thesis I linked to when I made that statement?  I gives wonderful expression to why tyranny is a liberal principle. Smiley

here - have the link again. members.optusnet.com.au/~jonja...y/leftauth.html

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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2004, 09:19:47 PM »

Actually, on the political compass - Authoritarianism is due North, Conservativism is due East, Libertarianism is due South, with Liberalism Due West.

Fascism is due North.  
Communism is NW.  
Capitalism is in the East.
Socialism in the West.
Due south?  ANARCHY - of course.

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