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Author Topic: Back to Believers Baptism!  (Read 3100 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: May 24, 2010, 08:56:04 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing. Enough of this infant baptism stuff, it's a terrible practice--nay, a corruption--that should have been rooted out long ago. We all know that the Scriptures say that "there must be heresies among you," but this is one thing that should be left behind.
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2010, 08:57:24 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing. Enough of this infant baptism stuff, it's a terrible practice--nay, a corruption--that should have been rooted out long ago. We all know that the Scriptures say that "there must be heresies among you," but this is one thing that should be left behind.

Sources, sources, sources.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2010, 09:07:19 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing. Enough of this infant baptism stuff, it's a terrible practice--nay, a corruption--that should have been rooted out long ago. We all know that the Scriptures say that "there must be heresies among you," but this is one thing that should be left behind.

Sources, sources, sources.

Exactly! Back to the original Church, enough of these practices without biblical or early patristic basis.
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2010, 09:24:30 PM »

You're serious?
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 09:52:05 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing.
Neither ancient nor traditional.

Exactly! Back to the original Church, enough of these practices without biblical or early patristic basis.
Like "believer's baptism."
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 10:01:45 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 10:28:16 PM »

Why do I get the feeling that the OP has been stealing nips from the flask? Wink
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 10:36:12 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.

Ummmm, that actually sounds far more reasonable than Asterikos' idea.
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2010, 11:35:59 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing.

And exactly how much understanding is required? Do I have to understand the chemical properties of the water I'm in?
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2010, 11:42:05 PM »

The Biblical standard--confessing Jesus with your lips--should suffice. Except for mute people, they can just nod.
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2010, 11:50:30 PM »

I like you better as an agnostic, because let's face it, it's what you are.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2010, 11:54:44 PM »

Now don't go throwing accusions around Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2010, 11:59:30 PM »

Sorry; lukewarm in nauseating, but perpetual indecisiveness is lethal.
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 12:10:50 AM »

So would you be happier if I put agnostic back in my faith field?

Btw, deusveritasest, no, this thread wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Wink
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2010, 12:12:44 AM »

So would you be happier if I put agnostic back in my faith field?

I am quite happy now that I know this thread is a joke.
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2010, 07:36:35 PM »

The Biblical standard--confessing Jesus with your lips--should suffice. Except for mute people, they can just nod.

So people who are mentally retarded or brain dead are not allowed to receive the Sacred Mysteries?
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 07:37:56 PM »

Btw, deusveritasest, no, this thread wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Wink

As in you don't honestly believe what you are saying?

Or you do and are just bringing it up in a playful manner?
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2010, 03:04:52 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.
I would have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever! I say 'let's do it!'...and no this does not mean tithing will be done away with
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« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2010, 03:08:40 PM »

The Biblical standard--confessing Jesus with your lips--should suffice. Except for mute people, they can just nod.

So people who are mentally retarded or brain dead are not allowed to receive the Sacred Mysteries?

I recently had an ongoing debate with a Baptist on youtube during which I asked him the same question. He had no answer to it
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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2010, 04:43:23 PM »

It has never been the policy or tradition of the Church in either covenant to deny membership and salvation to children. Sorry, the OP is utterly insane and invalid since there never was such a thing as "believer's baptism."
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2010, 04:47:34 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.
I would have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever! I say 'let's do it!'...and no this does not mean tithing will be done away with

Why?

St John Chrysostom talks about this in one of the homilies in the book "On Wealth and Poverty" (or "Living Simply", I don't remember which offhand). These implements are the common property of the parish community, used in worship of God. The Church should be beautiful to inspire us with awe and elevate worship to a high status.

Why don't we first sell all our unnecessary personal possessions that we use only for ourselves? It's easy to say "yeah, sell off all the fancy stuff at church", but I'll only buy that argument when everyone at the parish is already living in tiny, bare, plain houses; driving plain functional cars; eating plain, functional food; and wearing plain, functional clothes. We don't need nice furniture, nice cars, multiple (or any) TVs or computers, decorations, knickknacks, Internet access, air conditioning, or even fancy icon corners like many of us have. Get rid of all that personal vanity, then we can talk about gutting our churches.
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2010, 04:56:12 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.
I would have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever! I say 'let's do it!'...and no this does not mean tithing will be done away with

Why?

St John Chrysostom talks about this in one of the homilies in the book "On Wealth and Poverty" (or "Living Simply", I don't remember which offhand). These implements are the common property of the parish community, used in worship of God. The Church should be beautiful to inspire us with awe and elevate worship to a high status.

Why don't we first sell all our unnecessary personal possessions that we use only for ourselves? It's easy to say "yeah, sell off all the fancy stuff at church", but I'll only buy that argument when everyone at the parish is already living in tiny, bare, plain houses; driving plain functional cars; eating plain, functional food; and wearing plain, functional clothes. We don't need nice furniture, nice cars, multiple (or any) TVs or computers, decorations, knickknacks, air conditioning, or even fancy icon corners like many of us have. Get rid of all that vanity, then we can talk about gutting our churches.

Too many people would end getting struck down for lying about possessions they held back from the Church.
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2010, 05:00:10 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.
I would have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever! I say 'let's do it!'...and no this does not mean tithing will be done away with

Why?

St John Chrysostom talks about this in one of the homilies in the book "On Wealth and Poverty" (or "Living Simply", I don't remember which offhand). These implements are the common property of the parish community, used in worship of God. The Church should be beautiful to inspire us with awe and elevate worship to a high status.

Why don't we first sell all our unnecessary personal possessions that we use only for ourselves? It's easy to say "yeah, sell off all the fancy stuff at church", but I'll only buy that argument when everyone at the parish is already living in tiny, bare, plain houses; driving plain functional cars; eating plain, functional food; and wearing plain, functional clothes. We don't need nice furniture, nice cars, multiple (or any) TVs or computers, decorations, knickknacks, air conditioning, or even fancy icon corners like many of us have. Get rid of all that vanity, then we can talk about gutting our churches.

Too many people would end getting struck down for lying about possessions they held back from the Church.

Yes. So we should be honest and say we live pretty cushy lifestyles in our personal homes, so there is no reason to gut our beautiful parish churches just to assuage some kind of guilt. And we should work on simplifying our own lives so we appreciate the beauty of the Church that much more.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 05:00:51 PM by bogdan » Logged
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2010, 05:08:13 PM »

It has never been the policy or tradition of the Church in either covenant to deny membership and salvation to children. Sorry, the OP is utterly insane and invalid since there never was such a thing as "believer's baptism."

Thanks for clearing that up. All these months I've been so confused, but now thanks to your timely post I understand!  Tongue
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2010, 06:16:07 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.
I would have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever! I say 'let's do it!'...and no this does not mean tithing will be done away with

Why?

St John Chrysostom talks about this in one of the homilies in the book "On Wealth and Poverty" (or "Living Simply", I don't remember which offhand). These implements are the common property of the parish community, used in worship of God. The Church should be beautiful to inspire us with awe and elevate worship to a high status.

Why don't we first sell all our unnecessary personal possessions that we use only for ourselves? It's easy to say "yeah, sell off all the fancy stuff at church", but I'll only buy that argument when everyone at the parish is already living in tiny, bare, plain houses; driving plain functional cars; eating plain, functional food; and wearing plain, functional clothes. We don't need nice furniture, nice cars, multiple (or any) TVs or computers, decorations, knickknacks, Internet access, air conditioning, or even fancy icon corners like many of us have. Get rid of all that personal vanity, then we can talk about gutting our churches.

OK Fair enough. I didn't mean that we should lump whatever spiritual burden may be necessary onto someone else and never myself. I pray that one day I might 'sell everything I own and givew my money to the poor".
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« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2010, 06:28:21 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.
I would have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever! I say 'let's do it!'...and no this does not mean tithing will be done away with

Why?

St John Chrysostom talks about this in one of the homilies in the book "On Wealth and Poverty" (or "Living Simply", I don't remember which offhand). These implements are the common property of the parish community, used in worship of God. The Church should be beautiful to inspire us with awe and elevate worship to a high status.

Why don't we first sell all our unnecessary personal possessions that we use only for ourselves? It's easy to say "yeah, sell off all the fancy stuff at church", but I'll only buy that argument when everyone at the parish is already living in tiny, bare, plain houses; driving plain functional cars; eating plain, functional food; and wearing plain, functional clothes. We don't need nice furniture, nice cars, multiple (or any) TVs or computers, decorations, knickknacks, air conditioning, or even fancy icon corners like many of us have. Get rid of all that vanity, then we can talk about gutting our churches.

Too many people would end getting struck down for lying about possessions they held back from the Church.

Yes. So we should be honest and say we live pretty cushy lifestyles in our personal homes, so there is no reason to gut our beautiful parish churches just to assuage some kind of guilt. And we should work on simplifying our own lives so we appreciate the beauty of the Church that much more.

Amen, amen, amen!
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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2010, 06:29:36 PM »

It has never been the policy or tradition of the Church in either covenant to deny membership and salvation to children. Sorry, the OP is utterly insane and invalid since there never was such a thing as "believer's baptism."

Thanks for clearing that up. All these months I've been so confused, but now thanks to your timely post I understand!  Tongue

Well, good. Glad I was able to help.
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2010, 09:11:13 PM »

Too many people taking far too seriously an OP which, IMO, was obviously joking.
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2010, 09:30:48 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing. Enough of this infant baptism stuff, it's a terrible practice--nay, a corruption--that should have been rooted out long ago. We all know that the Scriptures say that "there must be heresies among you," but this is one thing that should be left behind.

Sources, sources, sources.

Exactly! Back to the original Church, enough of these practices without biblical or early patristic basis.

we must return to the original "true" Church practice of the symbolic "Lord's memorial meal" too  :

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20080401a/article_01.htm

make sure the grape juice and crackers are from the Jehovah approved brand !  

the proper form of "believer's baptism" is once you are an adult (none of that Roman Catholic stuff I read in the orthodox church of dipping kids in water just to wet them) and once you can read the King James bible (in English), and no Trinity of course (which is pagan and comes from Constantine who forced the unscriptural Trinity on us, my pentecostal pastor said so). You must baptize in the name of "Jesus" or else you have a false baptism, fortunately God has mercy on those ignorant people who baptize in the name of the Trinity little kids, they might go to heaven we never know, he is all mercy. Poor Roman Catholics in Russia and Greece and serbs too, they should spend less time on the tall hats and more time reading the bible. Grin






note: it's a joke I'm not serious.Please don't get "believer's baptism" and "The Lord's memorial meal"!
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2010, 11:05:56 PM »


Thanks. Now I've got the facts straight, directly from a reliable and authoritative force.
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2010, 11:25:36 PM »


Thanks. Now I've got the facts straight, directly from a reliable and authoritative force.

Of Course ! All you need is the bible (and study buddy watchtower society) ! Mr. Chick says so, he's a true Bible believer !
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2010, 12:15:25 AM »

The Biblical standard--confessing Jesus with your lips--should suffice. Except for mute people, they can just nod.

So people who are mentally retarded or brain dead are not allowed to receive the Sacred Mysteries?

I recently had an ongoing debate with a Baptist on youtube during which I asked him the same question. He had no answer to it

Ya, if you say that they can't be Christian (because they aren't capable of professing their faith) it's like saying either A) they don't have a soul, or B) it's not worth saving; either position I consider to be morally reprehensible.\

Actually, I believe the Baptist would say that they are saved because they fall into the category of children; i.e. they aren't able to determine right from wrong (which means they are considered 'saved' by default).
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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2010, 12:30:56 PM »



Why don't we first sell all our unnecessary personal possessions that we use only for ourselves? It's easy to say "yeah, sell off all the fancy stuff at church", but I'll only buy that argument when everyone at the parish is already living in tiny, bare, plain houses; driving plain functional cars; eating plain, functional food; and wearing plain, functional clothes.

 You might as well say, "we'll gut our Churches when the moon turns to green cheese!"  Grin In fact, quantum mechanics makes it actually more likely that the moon will turn into green cheese long before every single Orthodox Christian does as you ask.  Cheesy

Look I love our beautiful Churches. I think they should be adorned in beauty, but like it or not, there is at some point when the lavishness of our Churches simply goes too far. Look at St. Peter's in Rome. One of the most fabulous Churches on earth, but for most of it's history it stood in glory while the rest of Rome was a hovel. Our Churches sometimes are no different, sometimes even worse. Parishes struggle for financial viability while there are 10 gold chalices sitting unused in the Altar.

Quote
We don't need nice furniture, nice cars, multiple (or any) TVs or computers, decorations, knickknacks, Internet access, air conditioning, or even fancy icon corners like many of us have.

And Churches don't need Icons made out of silver and gold. Bishops don't need vestments woven out of gold and silver thread. Monasteries don't need millions of dollars worth of adornments. Churches don't need a lot of things. To ask that the people actually set the example for the Church to follow is utterly backwards. It's like going to a hospital and the doctors tell you to treat your own broken leg, then after you get better they'll wrap it in a cast.

Quote
Get rid of all that personal vanity, then we can talk about gutting our churches.

How can WE get rid of personal vanity when the Church, which is supposed to nurture us, teach us, and guide our paths into theosis, won't take the initiative to teach and guide us? This just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not saying we should gut our Churches, but I've come to realize, long ago that sometimes the criticisms against the Church are in fact correct. It is perverse to see multi million dollar parishes in the midst of some slum somewhere in the world. It's just ridiculous to see some of the financial waste that takes place in some of our parishes. Yes, they are beautiful places of worship. No doubt. but what is more important? The altar or the gold that the altar is made of? Plenty of Alaskan Churches have been made out of log cabins, with a few nice Icons, and a carved wooden altar and they are just as beautiful, (if not more so) than the grandest cathedrals in the world. I certainly don't think we need to gut our Churches. However a little more modesty would go along way in the world in teaching not only Orthodox, but non Orthodox that we are concerned more with people than with things. That when we swear on the altar it is the altar that is important, not the gold that it is made of. No reason to strip down our Churches ala Vatican II, that would be horrible and totally pointless.  But is there any reason for say St. George's Patriarchal Church to add yet another golden chalice to it's already fabulous collection? Is there any reason St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona should be more spectacular than most parish churches in North America? I mean, what do monks need with all of that? Again I think st. Anthony's is spectacular, but what are our priorities here?

of course Churches shouldn't strip down to their bare walls, however I think we can find some form of balance and moderation in all this. Lots of people thing Churches need the newest and best, the biggest and brightest and continue to hoard things that will basically go unused until the end of time while their neighbors and fellow Orthodox struggle to make ends meat. Don't think it happens? Believe me, it most certainly does. I think this is where the Church can and should have a little more discernment. Not with what we already have, (unless we just have too much as it is like the previously mentioned gold chalices that are never used etc) but with new things. However asking the sheep to become their own shepherd  just doesn't make sense to me.


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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2010, 01:13:55 PM »

Lots of people thing Churches need the newest and best, the biggest and brightest and continue to hoard things that will basically go unused until the end of time while their neighbors and fellow Orthodox struggle to make ends meat.

No meat today; it's Friday.
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2010, 01:24:10 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing. Enough of this infant baptism stuff, it's a terrible practice--nay, a corruption--that should have been rooted out long ago. We all know that the Scriptures say that "there must be heresies among you," but this is one thing that should be left behind.

Utter nonsense.

If the original practice of the Church was to deny Baptism to infants and young children, when did they change?

Protestants cant answer that question. It would have been a monumental shift. How could that change have been made WITH NO DISCUSSION AT ALL ?

Where are the emails ??
-------------------------
From: Your Bishop

Fr. We have noted that you are not yet Baptizing Infants.

 Did you not see the prior memo that the Church has decided to shift away from "Believers Baptism" and begin a brand new practice of Infant Baptism?

We have decided not to have a public discussion over this change as a way to confound people in the future. Is funny, No?

Burn this email.

---------------------------  
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 01:24:53 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2010, 01:28:05 PM »

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2010, 03:45:05 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing. Enough of this infant baptism stuff, it's a terrible practice--nay, a corruption--that should have been rooted out long ago. We all know that the Scriptures say that "there must be heresies among you," but this is one thing that should be left behind.

Utter nonsense.

If the original practice of the Church was to deny Baptism to infants and young children, when did they change?

Protestants cant answer that question. It would have been a monumental shift. How could that change have been made WITH NO DISCUSSION AT ALL ?

Where are the emails ??
-------------------------
From: Your Bishop

Fr. We have noted that you are not yet Baptizing Infants.

 Did you not see the prior memo that the Church has decided to shift away from "Believers Baptism" and begin a brand new practice of Infant Baptism?

We have decided not to have a public discussion over this change as a way to confound people in the future. Is funny, No?

Burn this email.

---------------------------  

Sadly, some Orthodox jurisdictions operate a bit like this.
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2010, 03:54:47 PM »

The Orthodox Church should return to the ancient and traditional form of baptism: baptizing adults when they are old enough to understand what they are doing. Enough of this infant baptism stuff, it's a terrible practice--nay, a corruption--that should have been rooted out long ago. We all know that the Scriptures say that "there must be heresies among you," but this is one thing that should be left behind.

Utter nonsense.

If the original practice of the Church was to deny Baptism to infants and young children, when did they change?

Protestants cant answer that question. It would have been a monumental shift. How could that change have been made WITH NO DISCUSSION AT ALL ?

Where are the emails ??
-------------------------
From: Your Bishop

Fr. We have noted that you are not yet Baptizing Infants.

 Did you not see the prior memo that the Church has decided to shift away from "Believers Baptism" and begin a brand new practice of Infant Baptism?

We have decided not to have a public discussion over this change as a way to confound people in the future. Is funny, No?

Burn this email.

---------------------------  

When did they change believing sins after baptism couldn't be forgiven?
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« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2010, 04:28:10 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you,[a] but you will not always have me.
Matthew 26 NIV

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2010, 04:29:30 PM »


And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.” Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want, but you will not always have me.
Matthew 26 NIV

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2010, 05:02:29 PM »

The Biblical standard--confessing Jesus with your lips--should suffice. Except for mute people, they can just nod.

So people who are mentally retarded or brain dead are not allowed to receive the Sacred Mysteries?

I recently had an ongoing debate with a Baptist on youtube during which I asked him the same question. He had no answer to it

LOL. They never do.  Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2010, 05:04:10 PM »

And while we're at it, let's sell off our highly valued properties, including all the golden crosses and chalices, and give the money to the poor. The early church did just fine worshipping with nothing special in catacombs and private homes. We should do the same.
I would have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever! I say 'let's do it!'...and no this does not mean tithing will be done away with

Why?

St John Chrysostom talks about this in one of the homilies in the book "On Wealth and Poverty" (or "Living Simply", I don't remember which offhand). These implements are the common property of the parish community, used in worship of God. The Church should be beautiful to inspire us with awe and elevate worship to a high status.

Why don't we first sell all our unnecessary personal possessions that we use only for ourselves? It's easy to say "yeah, sell off all the fancy stuff at church", but I'll only buy that argument when everyone at the parish is already living in tiny, bare, plain houses; driving plain functional cars; eating plain, functional food; and wearing plain, functional clothes. We don't need nice furniture, nice cars, multiple (or any) TVs or computers, decorations, knickknacks, air conditioning, or even fancy icon corners like many of us have. Get rid of all that vanity, then we can talk about gutting our churches.

Too many people would end getting struck down for lying about possessions they held back from the Church.

Yes. So we should be honest and say we live pretty cushy lifestyles in our personal homes, so there is no reason to gut our beautiful parish churches just to assuage some kind of guilt. And we should work on simplifying our own lives so we appreciate the beauty of the Church that much more.

I very much appreciate this line of thinking.  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2010, 05:04:25 PM »

The Biblical standard--confessing Jesus with your lips--should suffice. Except for mute people, they can just nod.

So people who are mentally retarded or brain dead are not allowed to receive the Sacred Mysteries?

I recently had an ongoing debate with a Baptist on youtube during which I asked him the same question. He had no answer to it

LOL. They never do.  Tongue

Actually, I believe the Baptist would say that they are saved because they fall into the category of children; i.e. they aren't able to determine right from wrong (which means they are considered 'saved' by default).
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« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2010, 05:06:37 PM »

Actually, I believe the Baptist would say that they are saved because they fall into the category of children; i.e. they aren't able to determine right from wrong (which means they are considered 'saved' by default).

That makes it sound like they don't really believe in ancestral sin.
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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2010, 06:00:08 PM »

Actually, I believe the Baptist would say that they are saved because they fall into the category of children; i.e. they aren't able to determine right from wrong (which means they are considered 'saved' by default).

That makes it sound like they don't really believe in ancestral sin.

AFAIK they don't believe in original sin, at least in the way that it is traditionally taught. They have their own belief that all babies go to heaven until they reach the age of accountability (or age of reason). It's a novel little doctrine...
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« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2010, 07:16:12 PM »

Actually, I believe the Baptist would say that they are saved because they fall into the category of children; i.e. they aren't able to determine right from wrong (which means they are considered 'saved' by default).

That makes it sound like they don't really believe in ancestral sin.

AFAIK they don't believe in original sin, at least in the way that it is traditionally taught. They have their own belief that all babies go to heaven until they reach the age of accountability (or age of reason). It's a novel little doctrine...
I'd like to know how they really explain it. "Jesus loves the little children" is what they hear for several years, then suddenly one day, it's "Repent or burn in hell!" I've never quite figured out how they decide who is accountable and who isn't. Seems rather cruel to me.

Of course, a lot of child evangelism is of the highly emotional type: "You want to be a good little boy/girl, don't you, and make Mommy/Daddy/Grandma/Grandpa happy, right? And you want to go to heaven when you die, don't you, so you can see Nanna and your baby sister who died before she was born?" With that emphasis on death at an early age, it's no wonder kids have nightmares.
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« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2010, 05:49:05 PM »

Actually, I believe the Baptist would say that they are saved because they fall into the category of children; i.e. they aren't able to determine right from wrong (which means they are considered 'saved' by default).

That makes it sound like they don't really believe in ancestral sin.

AFAIK they don't believe in original sin, at least in the way that it is traditionally taught. They have their own belief that all babies go to heaven until they reach the age of accountability (or age of reason). It's a novel little doctrine...
I'd like to know how they really explain it. "Jesus loves the little children" is what they hear for several years, then suddenly one day, it's "Repent or burn in hell!" I've never quite figured out how they decide who is accountable and who isn't. Seems rather cruel to me.

Of course, a lot of child evangelism is of the highly emotional type: "You want to be a good little boy/girl, don't you, and make Mommy/Daddy/Grandma/Grandpa happy, right? And you want to go to heaven when you die, don't you, so you can see Nanna and your baby sister who died before she was born?" With that emphasis on death at an early age, it's no wonder kids have nightmares.

Ya, you get 6 years or so of ignorant bliss, but then once you hit that magical age...wham! They lay on the fire and brimstone by the truckloads.
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