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Author Topic: OO fathers on the wills of Christ  (Read 6615 times) Average Rating: 0
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Severian
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« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2011, 02:52:59 PM »

^I see, then. Thank you. Smiley
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« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2011, 08:49:13 PM »

This is Dr. Jeffrey Macdonald talking about the 6th Ecumenical council:


http://orthodoxchurchhistory.com/uploads/WEB_15-6th_Ec_Council_ed.mp3 (6th Ecumenical Council-681 AD)

Most of the lecture is mostly about the back drop of what came before, and the context that set it all up. He also talks about how the Muslim conquest kept our two communions apart for a thousand plus years. He mentioned the 5th council and how that eventually brought alot of OO's back in communion with us. He talks about a number of different issues really and brings them together in how they relate to the 6th council.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 08:56:34 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2011, 02:10:09 AM »

^This is indeed interesting because Maximus himself accused Saint Severus of being a "marrionettist", but the latter's works were almost completely destroyed during the former's life, so... who knows? Huh

I found something else that might seem interesting: (page 62)
http://www.syriac.ca/Library/Still%20to%20be%20added/from%20fr%20ken/Maximus%20the%20Confessor.pdf (Maximus the Confessor PDF file/book)
quote:
Quote
"There is nothing overtly polemical about this piece,
which is an exposition of the fourth letter ascribed to Denys the
Areopagite. But it is implicitly polemical, since this letter contains the
key phrase quoted by the Monenergists—‘one divine-human (or
52 THE DOCTRINE OF THE PERSON OF CHRIST
theandric) activity’. According to all the manuscripts of the Corpus
Areopagiticum that we possess, this letter in fact refers to ‘a new
theandric activity’, and this is the reading Maximus knows and uses
as the basis for his exposition. But since all the Greek manuscripts of
the Dionysian writings go back to the edition prepared by John of
Scythopolis in the middle of the sixth century, and John was himself
anxious to present Denys as an orthodox Cyrilline Chalcedonian, the
authenticity of theMonophysite/Monenergist/Monothelite reading ‘one
theandric activity’ cannot be ruled out.
Amb. 5 consists of a lengthy paraphrase of Denys the Areopagite’s
fourth letter. In this letter Denys explains that in the Incarnation God
is called human, not as being the cause of humanity (which is the
ground of ‘cataphatic’ theology, in accordance with which God can be
called everything of which he is the cause, that is, everything that is),
but because ‘he is himself in his whole being truly a man’. Denys then
goes on to explain how in the Incarnation there is a comherence of
divine and human, so that Christ does human things divinely and
divine things humanly, and thus manifests ‘a certain new theandric
activity’. It is not difficult to suspect Denys’ language of deliberately
contradicting the Tome of Leo with its assertion that ‘each form
does what is proper to it in communion with the other’. It is hardly
surprising that those who rejected the Tome of Leo called in support of
their position this letter of Denys’. Maximus’ paraphrase is intended
to show that the fourth letter is entirely in accordance with
Chalcedonian orthodoxy. It is, however, Chalcedonian orthodoxy read
in the light of Cyril—Cyrilline Chalcedonianism. Nowhere is this more
apparent than in the interpretation of Jesus’ walking on the water—
listed by Leo as an example of an unequivocably divine activity—
where Maximus seems to be following Severus of Antioch (entirely
unwittingly, one imagines, given his habitual denunciation of the
Monophysite patriarch):
‘if then with unmoistened feet, which have
bodily bulk and the weight of matter, he traversed the wet and unstable
substance, walking on the sea as on a pavement, he shows through
this crossing that the natural energy of his own flesh is inseparable
from the power of his divinity’ (1049BC: and see my note ad loc.)."


To read the rest please visit the pdf file link
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 02:12:05 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Severian
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« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2011, 01:42:27 PM »

^Thank you for that interesting post! Smiley
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2011, 02:10:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote

where Maximus seems to be following Severus of Antioch (entirely
unwittingly, one imagines, given his habitual denunciation of the
Monophysite patriarch):
‘if then with unmoistened feet, which have
bodily bulk and the weight of matter, he traversed the wet and unstable
substance, walking on the sea as on a pavement, he shows through
this crossing that the natural energy of his own flesh is inseparable
from the power of his divinity’
(1049BC: and see my note ad loc.)."

Simply beautiful! I was just discussing this exact issue in a Christological lesson with my Sunday School class this past Sunday.  We were talking about the depth and faculties of the Tewahedo Union of the Incarnation according to Cyrillian Miaphysitism.  A question was asked in just this manner, about the seemingly human and divine activities of Christ, and one of my students suggested (and even used the same phrasing as Pope Leo's Tome) that some actions are the Divine and others are Human, however we as a class came to Oriental conclusion that example was inaccurate, and instead followed the Oriental understanding that through the Union, the Divine exists interdependently through the Humanity because according to the Hypostatic Union, the Human Body is forever and inseparably the hypostatic Body and Person of the Divine Word, and so the Divine both exists and functions through the Humanity.  So when Jesus Christ performs Divine acts such as miracles, it is not the Divine performing one action and the humanity performing another, because this implies a separation, which we in the Ethiopian tradition entirely reject.  

In the story of walking on water, clearly it is not a purely Divine action, because the Divine Word of God has no feet with which to walk because the Divine naturally lacks all physicality.  So if we see the Word performing any kind of physical activity, including physically walking on water, then we know it is a Divine-Human action because the human gives physical form to the Divine through the hypostatic Union.  

Jesus Christ walks on water in His human body, and yet can only achieve this clearly supernatural act because of the inherent power of His Divinity, and thus the walking on water is one of the most perfect examples of the fullness of the Union and the absolute lack of separation.

Severian, can you repost the link to the website you sent me before full of Saint Severus writings? I would like to use them for my classes..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 02:12:30 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2011, 02:45:00 PM »

I have never understood the supposed distinction between 'one theandric activity' and 'a new theandric activity'. It seems to me to be only a polemical pose.

It would also make sense that the Chalcedonian transmission of the text has become corrupted. At one time it was even considered that St Severus WAS pseudo-Dionysius.
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« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2011, 02:55:41 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I have never understood the supposed distinction between 'one theandric activity' and 'a new theandric activity'. It seems to me to be only a polemical pose.

It would also make sense that the Chalcedonian transmission of the text has become corrupted. At one time it was even considered that St Severus WAS pseudo-Dionysius.

I would agree, all the Theandric activities of God would be "new" to the Incarnation, because prior to the Incarnation it could not be said that God had any such human activities in the first place! However, folks how prefer "new" obviously are those who reject the concept of "One" and instead insist on two, human and divine.  Sometimes it is purely semantics, however I would argue in some examples the "two" camp reject some of the Oriental interpretations of the faculties of the Oneness of the Unity, especially emphasized by the language of Leo's Tome which from our Oriental perspective seemingly suggests a duality in Christ.  We in Oriental easily understand that through the Incarnation the Divine exists through the Human form, so that ALL Divine actions have become humanized because they stem from the Divine-Human Hypostasis of Jesus Christ, however Chalcedonians clearly have issues with this idea, hence a preference for "new" as opposed to "one"

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 02:59:24 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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Severian
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« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2011, 03:43:22 PM »

Severian, can you repost the link to the website you sent me before full of Saint Severus writings? I would like to use them for my classes..
Here you go:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/index.htm#Severus_of_Antioch
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« Reply #98 on: December 21, 2011, 03:48:29 PM »

I know what a new theandric activity means but I dont know why the words one theandric activity should be considered polemically as being different.
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« Reply #99 on: December 21, 2011, 04:47:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
I know what a new theandric activity means but I dont know why the words one theandric activity should be considered polemically as being different.

It seems to me that "new" could leave open the Chalcedonian option of duality between the Natures, where as clearly "One" limits the activities to the Miaphysite interpretation. I think all parties equally insist that the Theandric activities are "new" however only the Orientals insist on "One"  Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #100 on: December 21, 2011, 06:13:42 PM »

But 'one' and 'a' both mean the same thing.

My issue is that I can see no legitimate reason for some Chalcedonians to consider that one form is heretical and the other Orthodox. It just seems polemical for the sake of polemics.
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« Reply #101 on: December 21, 2011, 06:22:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

But 'one' and 'a' both mean the same thing.


True, but not always, "one" mountain clearly indicates a singularity, where as "a mountain range" is both singular and yet mutually pluralistic. In this context, "a new theandric activity" would imply a singularity to the newness, but not necessarily to the activities, where as clearly "one" theandric activity leaves no doubt as to the singularity.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #102 on: December 21, 2011, 06:42:06 PM »

One theandric activity does not necessarily describe a singularity, just as one incarnate nature does not describe a singularity. In both cases there is always a proper duality.
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« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2012, 04:16:06 PM »

Marked for later reading.

Gr8 topic.
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