Author Topic: "Russian Old Believers"  (Read 7143 times)

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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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"Russian Old Believers"
« on: May 21, 2010, 10:12:02 PM »
what are the "Russian Old Believers" exactly?

why do they dress like 17th century Russians?

I've found two interesting videos with them in it...these brought up my question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2U_epCjz8k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKn3usGhndw

Offline Ebor

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2010, 10:21:47 PM »
The Old Believers date from the time of Patriarch Nikon (1653-1658) who ordered that some Russian practices be changed to conform with Greek ones.  The Old Believers did not umm go along with this 'fiat' and there were some very bad things that happened. Many of their customs such as dress remain rooted in that time.

There are some Old Believer groups in the US in Alaska and the Pacific northwest among other places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2001-11-24/article/8516?headline=Three-centuries-on-Russian-Old-Believers-hang-on-in-Oregon
http://www.ohs.org/education/oregonhistory/historical_records/dspDocument.cfm?doc_ID=764E6BED-FFC4-C034-9A5563F41CE37080

I hope that is a start for you.  :)

Ebor
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2010, 10:28:52 PM »
what are the "Russian Old Believers" exactly?

People who rejected the liturgical reforms of Patriarch Nikon. They have a very high view of the connection of theology and liturgical practice to the point that they saw these reforms as changing the faith.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2010, 10:50:59 PM »
The Old Believers date from the time of Patriarch Nikon (1653-1658) who ordered that some Russian practices be changed to conform with Greek ones.  The Old Believers did not umm go along with this 'fiat' and there were some very bad things that happened. Many of their customs such as dress remain rooted in that time.

There are some Old Believer groups in the US in Alaska and the Pacific northwest among other places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2001-11-24/article/8516?headline=Three-centuries-on-Russian-Old-Believers-hang-on-in-Oregon
http://www.ohs.org/education/oregonhistory/historical_records/dspDocument.cfm?doc_ID=764E6BED-FFC4-C034-9A5563F41CE37080

I hope that is a start for you.  :)

Ebor

There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinoverie

ROCOR's Defender of the Old Rite, Bishop Daniel of Erie, just asleep in the Lord a month ago.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Daniel_%28Alexandrow%29_of_Erie
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2010, 11:17:20 PM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2010, 11:20:09 PM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2010, 11:21:21 PM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.

Ummmm, but...

If you refer to the Anti-Chalcedonians as Orthodox then why would you refer to the Old Believers as "returning to Orthodoxy", as if they were not Orthodox beforehand?
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2010, 11:23:30 PM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.

Ummmm, but...

If you refer to the Anti-Chalcedonians as Orthodox then why would you refer to the Old Believers as "returning to Orthodoxy", as if they were not Orthodox beforehand?

Well, I think he means that those who rejected the priesthood and other sacraments are those who left Orthodoxy.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2010, 11:23:55 PM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.

Ummmm, but...

If you refer to the Anti-Chalcedonians as Orthodox then why would you refer to the Old Believers as "returning to Orthodoxy", as if they were not Orthodox beforehand?
Neither had priests, and more importantly, bishops.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 11:24:20 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2010, 12:07:21 AM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.

Ummmm, but...

If you refer to the Anti-Chalcedonians as Orthodox then why would you refer to the Old Believers as "returning to Orthodoxy", as if they were not Orthodox beforehand?
Neither had priests, and more importantly, bishops.

What of these three seemingly episcopal jurisdictions?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipovan_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Old-Orthodox_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 01:02:51 AM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.

Ummmm, but...

If you refer to the Anti-Chalcedonians as Orthodox then why would you refer to the Old Believers as "returning to Orthodoxy", as if they were not Orthodox beforehand?
Neither had priests, and more importantly, bishops.

What of these three seemingly episcopal jurisdictions?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipovan_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Old-Orthodox_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2010, 02:58:23 PM »
I apprecciate the answers and debate, it's very fascinating.  are the Old Believers in communion with the canonical Orthodox Church?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2010, 04:20:28 PM »
I apprecciate the answers and debate, it's very fascinating.  are the Old Believers in communion with the canonical Orthodox Church?
Just the (Y)Edinovernie.  The rest are not in communion with each other either.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2010, 06:17:54 PM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.

Ummmm, but...

If you refer to the Anti-Chalcedonians as Orthodox then why would you refer to the Old Believers as "returning to Orthodoxy", as if they were not Orthodox beforehand?
Neither had priests, and more importantly, bishops.

What of these three seemingly episcopal jurisdictions?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipovan_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Old-Orthodox_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church

We know exactly who their orders derive from. What reason do you have to think otherwise?
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2010, 06:20:04 PM »
I apprecciate the answers and debate, it's very fascinating.  are the Old Believers in communion with the canonical Orthodox Church?

Those who maintain the view that the Nikonian reforms developed a heterodox faith are obviously not in communion with those who use the Nikonian reformist liturgical practices. The only ones that are are those who have recognized the faith of the Nikonians as orthodox.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2010, 07:27:47 PM »
There are some Old Believers that have returned to communion with the Orthodox Church. The Church of the Nativity in Erie is an example of this in America.

Offline GregoryLA

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2010, 08:24:12 PM »
I apprecciate the answers and debate, it's very fascinating.  are the Old Believers in communion with the canonical Orthodox Church?
Just the (Y)Edinovernie.  The rest are not in communion with each other either.

Some don't have communion at all. Which just raised the interesting question in my mind of how do they distinguish themselves as being out of communion with others when they don't take communion themselves.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2010, 08:55:26 PM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.

Ummmm, but...

If you refer to the Anti-Chalcedonians as Orthodox then why would you refer to the Old Believers as "returning to Orthodoxy", as if they were not Orthodox beforehand?
Neither had priests, and more importantly, bishops.

What of these three seemingly episcopal jurisdictions?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipovan_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Old-Orthodox_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church

We know exactly who their orders derive from. What reason do you have to think otherwise?
Oh, do you now? Where do they come from then?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2010, 11:36:02 PM »
Trevor, I corrected the title of your thread to eliminate the confusion caused by an accidental use of an Internet acronym used to express laughter. ;)
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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2010, 11:42:11 PM »
Trevor, I corrected the title of your thread to eliminate the confusion caused by an accidental use of an Internet acronym used to express laughter. ;)

thanks!  "lol"!

Offline вєликаго

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2010, 01:07:51 PM »
There are some who have returned to Orthodoxy:

*scratches head*

Weren't they closer to you in faith all along than even the Oriental Orthodox?
some yes (Priestly), some no (Priestless). And the ones that were, they still had/have to return to Orthodox unity.


The term "Priest" is being misused here -- all real, and, true followers of Christ are a royal 'PRIESTHOOD', hence, all are 'priests', moreover, the word does not accurately translate as 'priest', but, rather, it translates as 'pope' -- meaning 'father'.

  are the Old Believers in communion with the canonical Orthodox Church?

The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 01:14:28 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Heorhij

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2010, 02:53:03 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)
Love never fails.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 03:13:56 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)

Any-one who does not maintain the faith -- according to apostolic tradition is un-canonical; and, any-one who accepted the Heretical  Latin reforms -- such as Pseudo Patriarch Nikon, is an Apostate, and, hence, unable to transmit Apostolic Succession -- e.g. not able to baptize, not able to ordain popes or Bishops; and, so, unless you can show me a 'Bishop' with a Valid blessing, then yes you are under a unlawful Bishop -- and, not part of the canonical church.

St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 03:40:02 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)

Any-one who does not maintain the faith -- according to apostolic tradition is un-canonical; and, any-one who accepted the Heretical  Latin reforms -- such as Pseudo Patriarch Nikon, is an Apostate, and, hence, unable to transmit Apostolic Succession -- e.g. not able to baptize, not able to ordain popes or Bishops; and, so, unless you can show me a 'Bishop' with a Valid blessing...
You first.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline вєликаго

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 04:15:25 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)



Any-one who does not maintain the faith -- according to apostolic tradition is un-canonical; and, any-one who accepted the Heretical  Latin reforms -- such as Pseudo Patriarch Nikon, is an Apostate, and, hence, unable to transmit Apostolic Succession -- e.g. not able to baptize, not able to ordain popes or Bishops; and, so, unless you can show me a 'Bishop' with a Valid blessing...
You first.

I'm with-out an Earthly-Bishop, but, if you could show me a Earthly-Bishop with a Valid blessing then I would submit --straightaway.

The Old Believers have the most important Bishop -- the Heavenly Arch Bishop himself -- Christ! Acceptance of the Invalid Apostate Bishops is rejection of the Heavenly Bishop.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Heorhij

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2010, 04:59:10 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)

Any-one who does not maintain the faith -- according to apostolic tradition is un-canonical; and, any-one who accepted the Heretical  Latin reforms -- such as Pseudo Patriarch Nikon, is an Apostate, and, hence, unable to transmit Apostolic Succession -- e.g. not able to baptize, not able to ordain popes or Bishops; and, so, unless you can show me a 'Bishop' with a Valid blessing, then yes you are under a unlawful Bishop -- and, not part of the canonical church.



Wait, but you haven't answered my other two questions, and I believe those are of a bigger importance. I repeat:

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да.
Love never fails.

Offline Melodist

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2010, 05:00:31 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)



Any-one who does not maintain the faith -- according to apostolic tradition is un-canonical; and, any-one who accepted the Heretical  Latin reforms -- such as Pseudo Patriarch Nikon, is an Apostate, and, hence, unable to transmit Apostolic Succession -- e.g. not able to baptize, not able to ordain popes or Bishops; and, so, unless you can show me a 'Bishop' with a Valid blessing...
You first.

I'm with-out an Earthly-Bishop, but, if you could show me a Earthly-Bishop with a Valid blessing then I would submit --straightaway.

The Old Believers have the most important Bishop -- the Heavenly Arch Bishop himself -- Christ! Acceptance of the Invalid Apostate Bishops is rejection of the Heavenly Bishop.

I know some protestants who fall directly under the authority of the same Bishop.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2010, 05:01:40 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)



Any-one who does not maintain the faith -- according to apostolic tradition is un-canonical; and, any-one who accepted the Heretical  Latin reforms -- such as Pseudo Patriarch Nikon, is an Apostate, and, hence, unable to transmit Apostolic Succession -- e.g. not able to baptize, not able to ordain popes or Bishops; and, so, unless you can show me a 'Bishop' with a Valid blessing...
You first.

I'm with-out an Earthly-Bishop, but, if you could show me a Earthly-Bishop with a Valid blessing then I would submit --straightaway.

The Old Believers have the most important Bishop -- the Heavenly Arch Bishop himself -- Christ! Acceptance of the Invalid Apostate Bishops is rejection of the Heavenly Bishop.
Go join the Protestants. Formally, I mean. You already have adopted their "theology."

I will tell you the same thing I tell them, that High Priest promised "I will build my Church....the gates of Hell will never prevail against it....Lo! I am with you all the days even unto the end of the age/world...those who accept you accept Me...those who reject Me, and those who reject Me reject Him who sent Me."

So you claim that He build His Church on a shallow foundation, and hence Hell has prevailed, and thus call Him a liar.  You refuse to accept those whom He sent and deny that He has remained with us, as He promised He will until the close of the age, and rejecting them, you reject Him and His Father.  You cannot claim to have Him Whom you thus deny.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline вєликаго

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2010, 05:05:23 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?


И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)



Any-one who does not maintain the faith -- according to apostolic tradition is un-canonical; and, any-one who accepted the Heretical  Latin reforms -- such as Pseudo Patriarch Nikon, is an Apostate, and, hence, unable to transmit Apostolic Succession -- e.g. not able to baptize, not able to ordain popes or Bishops; and, so, unless you can show me a 'Bishop' with a Valid blessing...
You first.

I'm with-out an Earthly-Bishop, but, if you could show me a Earthly-Bishop with a Valid blessing then I would submit --straightaway.

The Old Believers have the most important Bishop -- the Heavenly Arch Bishop himself -- Christ! Acceptance of the Invalid Apostate Bishops is rejection of the Heavenly Bishop.
Go join the Protestants. Formally, I mean. You already have adopted their "theology."

I will tell you the same thing I tell them, that High Priest promised "I will build my Church....the gates of Hell will never prevail against it....Lo! I am with you all the days even unto the end of the age/world...those who accept you accept Me...those who reject Me, and those who reject Me reject Him who sent Me."

So you claim that He build His Church on a shallow foundation, and hence Hell has prevailed, and thus call Him a liar.  You refuse to accept those whom He sent and deny that He has remained with us, as He promised He will until the close of the age, and rejecting them, you reject Him and His Father.  You cannot claim to have Him Whom you thus deny.

You presume to know my position; I said: "I'm with-out an Earthly-Bishop, BUT, if you could SHOW me a Earthly-Bishop with a Valid blessing then I would submit --straightaway. "

"Matthew 24:24   For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. "

So is the master Himself wrong then?


I know some protestants who fall directly under the authority of the same Bishop.

This must be Slander, pure, and, simple -- unless I am mistaken?, because, if the protestants have Christs blessing, then, what ground are you standing on?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 05:26:36 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Melodist

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2010, 05:45:48 PM »

I know some protestants who fall directly under the authority of the same Bishop.

This must be Slander, pure, and, simple -- unless I am mistaken?, because, if the protestants have Christs blessing, then, what ground do you even hope you are standing on?

You believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.
Protestants believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.

You deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.
Protestants deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.

You refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is your only authority.
Protestants refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is their only authority.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline вєликаго

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2010, 05:51:36 PM »

I know some protestants who fall directly under the authority of the same Bishop.

This must be Slander, pure, and, simple -- unless I am mistaken?, because, if the protestants have Christs blessing, then, what ground do you even hope you are standing on?

You believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.
Protestants believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.

You deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.
Protestants deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.

You refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is your only authority.
Protestants refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is their only authority.

It reads as if you know more about what I believe then I do?

I have never denied the 'sacramental priesthood' -- after your done putting words in my mouth, not even I, will know what I believe anymore.

I believe in the Apostasy that Christ, and, Hes Apostles forewarned 'us' about; are you calling them liars?
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2010, 06:05:41 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?


И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)



Any-one who does not maintain the faith -- according to apostolic tradition is un-canonical; and, any-one who accepted the Heretical  Latin reforms -- such as Pseudo Patriarch Nikon, is an Apostate, and, hence, unable to transmit Apostolic Succession -- e.g. not able to baptize, not able to ordain popes or Bishops; and, so, unless you can show me a 'Bishop' with a Valid blessing...
You first.

I'm with-out an Earthly-Bishop, but, if you could show me a Earthly-Bishop with a Valid blessing then I would submit --straightaway.

The Old Believers have the most important Bishop -- the Heavenly Arch Bishop himself -- Christ! Acceptance of the Invalid Apostate Bishops is rejection of the Heavenly Bishop.
Go join the Protestants. Formally, I mean. You already have adopted their "theology."

I will tell you the same thing I tell them, that High Priest promised "I will build my Church....the gates of Hell will never prevail against it....Lo! I am with you all the days even unto the end of the age/world...those who accept you accept Me...those who reject Me, and those who reject Me reject Him who sent Me."

So you claim that He build His Church on a shallow foundation, and hence Hell has prevailed, and thus call Him a liar.  You refuse to accept those whom He sent and deny that He has remained with us, as He promised He will until the close of the age, and rejecting them, you reject Him and His Father.  You cannot claim to have Him Whom you thus deny.

You presume to know my position; I said: "I'm with-out an Earthly-Bishop, BUT, if you could SHOW me a Earthly-Bishop with a Valid blessing then I would submit --straightaway. "

"Matthew 24:24   For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. "

So is the master Himself wrong then?

No.  Indeed many false Christs and false prophets arise, and lead many astray, and many tares among the wheat: hence whe He says "fear not, little flock."  Your problem is that you claim there is NO true successor of Christ's Apostles.


I know some protestants who fall directly under the authority of the same Bishop.

This must be Slander, pure, and, simple -- unless I am mistaken?, because, if the protestants have Christs blessing, then, what ground are you standing on?
The Protestants speak of a Kingdom of Power (Christ as Almighty) and the Kigndom of Grace (Christ Who accepts those who come to Him, on His terms).  They, like yourself, only have Him as Lord in the first Kingdom, not in the latter. As the Fathers warn, one cannot have God as a Father if he does not have the Church as his Mother.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2010, 06:07:50 PM »

I know some protestants who fall directly under the authority of the same Bishop.

This must be Slander, pure, and, simple -- unless I am mistaken?, because, if the protestants have Christs blessing, then, what ground do you even hope you are standing on?

You believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.
Protestants believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.

You deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.
Protestants deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.

You refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is your only authority.
Protestants refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is their only authority.

It reads as if you know more about what I believe then I do?

I have never denied the 'sacramental priesthood' -- after your done putting words in my mouth, not even I, will know what I believe anymore.

I believe in the Apostasy that Christ, and, Hes Apostles forewarned 'us' about; are you calling them liars?

You just said "not even I willl know what I believe anymore" and then go on to say "I believe in the the Apostacy."  Christ and His Apostles are not the ones revealed as lying.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline вєликаго

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2010, 06:21:26 PM »




No.  Indeed many false Christs and false prophets arise, and lead many astray, and many tares among the wheat: hence whe He says "fear not, little flock."  Your problem is that you claim there is NO true successor of Christ's Apostles.


I never claimed that -- I only pointed out that I do not KNOW of any-one with a blessing to be a Pope; and, I most certainly never claimed that 'there is NO true successor of Christ's Apostles.'


You just said "not even I willl know what I believe anymore" and then go on to say "I believe in the the Apostacy."  Christ and His Apostles are not the ones revealed as lying.

More slander? Or is it some-thing else? -- I am not willing to PRESUME.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 06:23:26 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Melodist

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2010, 06:38:12 PM »

I know some protestants who fall directly under the authority of the same Bishop.

This must be Slander, pure, and, simple -- unless I am mistaken?, because, if the protestants have Christs blessing, then, what ground do you even hope you are standing on?

You believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.
Protestants believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.

You deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.
Protestants deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.

You refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is your only authority.
Protestants refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is their only authority.

It reads as if you know more about what I believe then I do?

I have never denied the 'sacramental priesthood' -- after your done putting words in my mouth, not even I, will know what I believe anymore.

Please forgive me if I misinterpreted
The term "Priest" is being misused here -- all real, and, true followers of Christ are a royal 'PRIESTHOOD', hence, all are 'priests', moreover, the word does not accurately translate as 'priest', but, rather, it translates as 'pope' -- meaning 'father'.

Quote
I believe in the Apostasy that Christ, and, Hes Apostles forewarned 'us' about; are you calling them liars?


I also believe that:

"I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

and

"I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

I do not believe that He is lieing either.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline вєликаго

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2010, 06:43:08 PM »

I know some protestants who fall directly under the authority of the same Bishop.

This must be Slander, pure, and, simple -- unless I am mistaken?, because, if the protestants have Christs blessing, then, what ground do you even hope you are standing on?

You believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.
Protestants believe that Church hierarchy failed to do it's job to preserve the faith and govern the Church.

You deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.
Protestants deny the sacramental priesthood of the Church.

You refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is your only authority.
Protestants refuse to submit any kind of ecclesiastical authority with the claim that Christ Himself is their only authority.

It reads as if you know more about what I believe then I do?

I have never denied the 'sacramental priesthood' -- after your done putting words in my mouth, not even I, will know what I believe anymore.

Please forgive me if I misinterpreted
The term "Priest" is being misused here -- all real, and, true followers of Christ are a royal 'PRIESTHOOD', hence, all are 'priests', moreover, the word does not accurately translate as 'priest', but, rather, it translates as 'pope' -- meaning 'father'.

Quote
I believe in the Apostasy that Christ, and, Hes Apostles forewarned 'us' about; are you calling them liars?


I also believe that:

"I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

and

"I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

I do not believe that He is lieing either.

Notice I did not say all are popes or bishops....and, thank you -- I forgive any misunderstandings; -- I agree with this latest post (located and quoted here).
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline stashko

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2010, 06:56:16 PM »
Српски Језик....Поп ,Свештеник....Priest in english...
Serbian language...Priest ,sanctifier or Blesser.... ;
Оче, Father.... ;D
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 07:21:27 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2010, 07:14:01 PM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)
Can I get an English translation, please?  Thank you.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2010, 07:17:58 PM »
Српски Језик....Поп ,Свештеник....Priest in english... Оче, Father.... ;D
Can I get an English translation, please?  Thank you.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 07:18:19 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Heorhij

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2010, 08:35:45 AM »
The Old Believers ARE the "canonical Orthodox Church" -- which means the lawful church.

But then, why is your bishop not in Eucharistic union with my bishop? Are you saying I am in an un-canonical or unlawful Church?

А Вы знаeтe, что означаeт Ваш псeвдоним? И почeму он у Вас в родитeльном падeжe?

И нe кажeтся ли Вам, что Вы просто играeтe в экзотику? Мнe - да. :)
Can I get an English translation, please?  Thank you.

I will PM you. I deliberately asked "вєлікаго" a question in Russian, and I am waiting for his answer, so I will not translate what I asked here, on the forum. I have my reasons.
Love never fails.

Offline vamrat

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2010, 10:26:35 AM »
I will say in the Old Believer's defense, that many of our actions towards them resembled those of Diocletian more than they would Christ's.  Avvakum was burned at the stake.  Old Believers were excluded from public life, imprisoned, exiled, tortured, raped, and murdered.  These are not the actions of Orthodox Christians. 

I would hope that someday there can be forgiveness and communion between the Old Believers and the Patriarchate, but we must also accept that many of the Old Believers never left the Church, they were pushed out.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2010, 10:31:49 AM »
I will say in the Old Believer's defense, that many of our actions towards them resembled those of Diocletian more than they would Christ's.  Avvakum was burned at the stake.  Old Believers were excluded from public life, imprisoned, exiled, tortured, raped, and murdered.  These are not the actions of Orthodox Christians. 

I would hope that someday there can be forgiveness and communion between the Old Believers and the Patriarchate, but we must also accept that many of the Old Believers never left the Church, they were pushed out.
I'm with Alexander Solzheitsyn in holding that the Bolshevik yoke was brought on by the persecusion of the Old Ritualists/Believers.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2010, 10:51:54 AM »
I deliberately asked "вєлікаго" a question in Russian, and I am waiting for his answer, so I will not translate what I asked here, on the forum. I have my reasons.

Perhaps your reason is that he cannot speak Russian and is either an American troll or an American convert to a movement that he has little-to-no contact with?

Offline Heorhij

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2010, 10:55:30 AM »
I deliberately asked "вєлікаго" a question in Russian, and I am waiting for his answer, so I will not translate what I asked here, on the forum. I have my reasons.

Perhaps your reason is that he cannot speak Russian and is either an American troll or an American convert to a movement that he has little-to-no contact with?

No, I did not want to imply that he is a troll; rather, I suspect that he is attracted to something exotic that he does not really understand.
Love never fails.

Offline Azul

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Re: "Russian Old Believers"
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2010, 01:41:26 PM »
Let`s not judge our brothers who are posting here with their broken and humble hearts..



Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi