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Author Topic: Is the Orthodox Church really true?  (Read 10883 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jetavan
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« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2010, 05:11:38 PM »

A lot of my struggles also have to do with culture as well and its intertwined impact with religion (Something that EO's should be very familiar with).  I come from a  culture that has been heavily influenced by the RCC, just as the Greeks and Russians have been by the OC.  To give this up is not so easy for me to contemplate.
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Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
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« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2010, 07:05:37 PM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2010, 12:06:24 AM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?
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Robb
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« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2010, 01:39:39 AM »

A lot of my struggles also have to do with culture as well and its intertwined impact with religion (Something that EO's should be very familiar with).  I come from a  culture that has been heavily influenced by the RCC, just as the Greeks and Russians have been by the OC.  To give this up is not so easy for me to contemplate.
Luke 12:51-53

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


Well, that sounds non too pleasant, but I guess its from the main source so it has relevance.
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2010, 01:54:52 AM »

A lot of my struggles also have to do with culture as well and its intertwined impact with religion (Something that EO's should be very familiar with).  I come from a  culture that has been heavily influenced by the RCC, just as the Greeks and Russians have been by the OC.  To give this up is not so easy for me to contemplate.



Yes. But your Italian/Latin culture was Orthodox for a thousand years before being Roman Catholic for a thousand.

True!  However it sadly isn't (Officially) anymore.  I still believe that the (Southern) Italian form of Catholicism is far closer in many ways then the RC ism practiced in other parts of Europe.  The Italian Catholicism is more warm, more open, and less strict and legalistic then what most people would identify as RC ism (It also has a good deal more folk and even pagan elements to it which were a cause of considerable scandal, especially to the Irish dominated RCC in the US when the Italians first started coming over).  It appears that even though the Norman overlords changed the rituals from Byzantine to Latin, the formers spirit still remained locked inside the hearts and minds of the Italian people till this day.

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2010, 02:37:30 AM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?

Dear Peter,

Why do you make this suggestion?  Do the OOs have some kind of contagion or are they unrestrainably uncivilised?  Just about every discussion on the OOs is shunted off into a private forum.

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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2010, 03:39:44 AM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?

Dear Peter,

Why do you make this suggestion?
Why do you make that your concern?

Do the OOs have some kind of contagion or are they unrestrainably uncivilised?
I didn't address my question to OO posters in general.  I addressed it to deusveritasest specifically, and in reply to a specific statement he made.

Just about every discussion on the OOs is shunted off into a private forum.
Really?  That's news to me, and I'm aware of just about every thread that gets split or moved around here.  You got any evidence to back up your claim?  (That's a rhetorical question.  Please don't answer it.)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 03:54:29 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2010, 04:01:59 AM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?

Dear Peter,

Why do you make this suggestion?
Why do you make that your concern?

I have been concerned for a while that the OOs are treated, it seems to me, as fragile members on the forum and discussions which concern them are usually shifted to the private section of the forum.  I have been put out when discussions in which I am interested (since I don't know much about the OOs) suddenly vanish and are sent off to a private location.  Just my subjective impression of course;  I may be quite wrong.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 04:03:49 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2010, 04:07:55 AM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?

Dear Peter,

Why do you make this suggestion?
Why do you make that your concern?

I have been concerned for a while that the OOs are treated, it seems to me, as fragile members on the forum and discussions which concern them are usually shifted to the private section of the forum.  I have been put out when discussions in which I am interested (since I don't know much about the OOs) suddenly vanish and are sent off to a private location.  Just my subjective impression of course;  I may be quite wrong.
The decision to move threads to the EO/OO private board, however, is a moderatorial concern I wish to not discuss on this thread.  If you have a concern with any moderator's decision to move a thread, I encourage you to use the private message system or the "Report to Moderator" function to express your concern.  That's all I will say here.
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« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2010, 07:32:05 AM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?

Dear Peter,

Why do you make this suggestion?
Why do you make that your concern?

I have been concerned for a while that the OOs are treated, it seems to me, as fragile members on the forum and discussions which concern them are usually shifted to the private section of the forum.  I have been put out when discussions in which I am interested (since I don't know much about the OOs) suddenly vanish and are sent off to a private location.  Just my subjective impression of course;  I may be quite wrong.

Perhaps it is in the interest of keeping the ensuing argument away from the papists, as in not airing dirty laundry.
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« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2010, 10:10:06 PM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?

I think it's already been discussed why I think that, no?

I just wanted to introduce the idea of other possibilities into a thread that was seemingly only considering it to be possible that the RCC or the EOC is the true Church.
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« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2010, 10:13:19 PM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?

Dear Peter,

Why do you make this suggestion?
Why do you make that your concern?

I have been concerned for a while that the OOs are treated, it seems to me, as fragile members on the forum and discussions which concern them are usually shifted to the private section of the forum.  I have been put out when discussions in which I am interested (since I don't know much about the OOs) suddenly vanish and are sent off to a private location.  Just my subjective impression of course;  I may be quite wrong.

Perhaps it is in the interest of keeping the ensuing argument away from the papists, as in not airing dirty laundry.

How could it possibly be particularly the EOC's "dirty laundry" when neither the RCC nor the EOC are in communion with the OOC and both the Roman church and the Byzantine churches were one when the division from the Oriental churches happened?
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2010, 10:29:11 PM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.

You, too, are neither then, right?  Huh

Cosmos  Undecided

It's pretty clear that the OP was referring to "the Roman Catholic Church" and "the Eastern Orthodox Church". I'm inclined to think that neither of them are the true Church, but rather the Oriental Orthodox Church is.
Would you be willing to start a thread on the EO/OO private board to explain why you think this?

I think it's already been discussed why I think that, no?

I just wanted to introduce the idea of other possibilities into a thread that was seemingly only considering it to be possible that the RCC or the EOC is the true Church.
But when many here on this forum consider the EO and OO churches to be, in some way, the same Church, what you've done is introduce to this discussion a point of view that is more appropriate for discussion somewhere else and can be seen as off-topic proselytization, which is forbidden on this forum.  It seems that in Robb's mind, the only options are the RC and EO churches, especially considering that he is a former Catholic preparing to be received into the Eastern Orthodox Church.  (I'm not sure what he thinks about the OO.)  Seeing that he appears to be working through enough confusion already, I don't think it wise to muddy things even more with your implication that the EO and OO churches may in fact be separate churches and that the OO may therefore be another option for him.

I'm not contesting the content of your assertion.  I just think it could be made more effectively in some context other than this.
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« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2010, 10:39:23 PM »

Let's not forget about the other options: the Assyrian Church of the East and various Mandaeisms.

If he's really going to possibly destroy his connections with family over this issue, shouldn't he be aware of all other "options" beforehand? (Isn't it nice how we get to go shopping?)

If it is that unsettling to him to find out about other ancient Christian traditions which survive, then he probably shouldn't be making any such switch. I just hope God gives Him peace and shows him the Way.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 10:39:58 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2010, 10:46:47 PM »

But when many here on this forum consider the EO and OO churches to be, in some way, the same Church,

Seriously?  Undecided
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« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2010, 10:54:00 PM »

But when many here on this forum consider the EO and OO churches to be, in some way, the same Church,
Seriously?  Undecided

Yeah, dude. Didn't you get the update? We're one invisible Church.  Wink So no need to inquire into OO, because we're already one. Just head back to the OCA.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 10:54:40 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2010, 11:02:29 PM »

So, how does any of this off-topic banter help answer Robb's questions?  That is, after all, the REAL issue here.
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« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2010, 11:06:12 PM »

But when many here on this forum consider the EO and OO churches to be, in some way, the same Church,
Seriously?  Undecided

Yeah, dude. Didn't you get the update? We're one invisible Church.  Wink So no need to inquire into OO, because we're already one. Just head back to the OCA.

I wish this had a raised eyebrow emoticon.
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« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2010, 11:07:05 PM »

So, how does any of this off-topic banter help answer Robb's questions?  That is, after all, the REAL issue here.

I don't see how offering an alternative answer to the original question is off topic.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2010, 11:08:33 PM »

I don't see how offering an alternative answer to the original question is off topic.
I already explained how (cf. Reply #57), so back on topic, please.
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« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2010, 12:33:02 AM »

Is the Orthodox Church really the one, true, faith founded by Jesus Christ?  Why, for instance would God want his Church to be a string of self governing national ones instead of a unified central authority like the Papacy?
 If Orthodoxy is true then why isn't it big and important everywhere like the RCC is?
I don't think that big and important should be the overriding issue if the main concern is "truth".
Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.
For my personal opinion on it, this war between the  OO, EO, RC Churches has been an enormous historical error. I don't see this as an ideal situation where these Churches separate and fight among themselves.
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« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2010, 12:54:28 AM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
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« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2010, 01:04:03 AM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
Here's a question for you:
Could all three Churches OO, EO, RC be "true" to some very large extent, but none of the three has the ideal absolute 100% true "truth" that you may be looking for?
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« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2010, 01:06:05 AM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).

The Church is looking for quality, not quantity. I think, despite the fact that the EO are not in communion with the OOs, you are being rather harsh in your judgment. Millions of OOs have been martyred for their faith in Christ, and I will apologise on their behalf for them not living up to your expectations. They are not on this earth to please you, but to please God. The same goes for the EO. Instead of trying to convince yourself who is right, or bringing it onto an internet forum for us to try to convince you, why not pray to God about it??
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« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2010, 01:09:20 AM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians.  

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
Here's a question for you:
Could all three Churches OO, EO, RC be "true" to some very large extent, but none of the three has the ideal absolute 100% true "truth" that you may be looking for?

Yea, I could kind of buy that.  Although I love devotion to God, the Blessed Mother, and the saints, I've non the less always been kind of suspicious of organized religious institutions.  I do love the Italian version of Catholicism with all its saints, processions,mysticism, and warmth which seem so sadly lacking int he various creeds (The ROC has a similar piety which can warm the heart and has moved me to great devotion as well).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 01:12:50 AM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2010, 01:15:30 AM »

OK, Robb: It seems you are looking for a faith which has a great number of adherents (a "majority faith", if you will), with the ethnic/cultural flavor you're comfortable with, which espouses and proclaims the truths of God.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
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« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2010, 11:28:58 AM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
Here's a question for you:
Could all three Churches OO, EO, RC be "true" to some very large extent, but none of the three has the ideal absolute 100% true "truth" that you may be looking for?

If that were the case, then it seems that scriptures lie about the Church being the pillar and foundation of truth.
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« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2010, 04:15:17 PM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
Here's a question for you:
Could all three Churches OO, EO, RC be "true" to some very large extent, but none of the three has the ideal absolute 100% true "truth" that you may be looking for?


If that were the case, then it seems that scriptures lie about the Church being the pillar and foundation of truth.



No, It just means that the Church is all broken up due to human weakness, but the truth is that God is love and he loves us and wants to reconcile use to himself through his grace which comes out of the sacraments/Mysteries of the Church.  It seems to me that some people have a problem with this definition of the Church because the have ulterior motives to just faith in Christ.  Some people want to use the Church as a weapon to beat others over the head with in order to make themselves feel more superior to others.  They take every little statement and anathema that clerics in past centuries have hurled against one another and society and try to pretend that these are still binding and relevant by today's standards. 
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« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2010, 04:17:11 PM »

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Of course not. There's no such thing. Orthodoxy is just the best expression of Christianity around.
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« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2010, 04:35:17 PM »

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Of course not. There's no such thing. Orthodoxy is just the best expression of Christianity around.

That sounds sensible to me.
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« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2010, 05:00:48 PM »

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Of course not. There's no such thing. Orthodoxy is just the best expression of Christianity around.

If it isn't, then I'm wasting my time (as did the Apostles and those after them).

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« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2010, 05:03:48 PM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
Here's a question for you:
Could all three Churches OO, EO, RC be "true" to some very large extent, but none of the three has the ideal absolute 100% true "truth" that you may be looking for?


If that were the case, then it seems that scriptures lie about the Church being the pillar and foundation of truth.



No, It just means that the Church is all broken up due to human weakness, but the truth is that God is love and he loves us and wants to reconcile use to himself through his grace which comes out of the sacraments/Mysteries of the Church.  It seems to me that some people have a problem with this definition of the Church because the have ulterior motives to just faith in Christ.  Some people want to use the Church as a weapon to beat others over the head with in order to make themselves feel more superior to others.  They take every little statement and anathema that clerics in past centuries have hurled against one another and society and try to pretend that these are still binding and relevant by today's standards. 

How can the Church be broken up?? The Church is unified and one Body right now. There are some people outside of the Church whoch may believe 99.9% of the same things we do, but they are still outside of the Church.
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« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2010, 05:04:03 PM »

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Of course not. There's no such thing. Orthodoxy is just the best expression of Christianity around.

If it isn't, then I'm wasting my time (as did the Apostles and those after them).


I agree, to a large extent.
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« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2010, 08:53:14 PM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
Here's a question for you:
Could all three Churches OO, EO, RC be "true" to some very large extent, but none of the three has the ideal absolute 100% true "truth" that you may be looking for?


If that were the case, then it seems that scriptures lie about the Church being the pillar and foundation of truth.



No, It just means that the Church is all broken up due to human weakness, but the truth is that God is love and he loves us and wants to reconcile use to himself through his grace which comes out of the sacraments/Mysteries of the Church.  It seems to me that some people have a problem with this definition of the Church because the have ulterior motives to just faith in Christ.  Some people want to use the Church as a weapon to beat others over the head with in order to make themselves feel more superior to others.  They take every little statement and anathema that clerics in past centuries have hurled against one another and society and try to pretend that these are still binding and relevant by today's standards. 
yes.
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« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2010, 09:26:18 PM »

Perhaps neither of them are the true Church.
For my personal opinion on it, this war between the  OO, EO, RC Churches has been an enormous historical error. I don't see this as an ideal situation where these Churches separate and fight among themselves.

What do you mean by "fight"?
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« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2010, 10:00:30 PM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)? 

Christ was never into big numbers.  If you are, then the Catholic Church would be the Church for you. 

Quote
The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

Actually, the largest group are the Ethiopians. 

I won't dispute the clannishness and xenophobia of the Armenians.  However, you need to realize this happened in the context of a genocide at the hands of Turks which nearly wiped us out a couple of generations ago. 

As Ukie pointed out, the OO's have probably given more martyrs to Christ in proportion to their population than any other Christian group in history.  Thus the "diminishing bloodline."

And you're right:  The Copts are very friendly.


Quote
It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).

Well, from our point of view, prior to the Chalcedonian schism and the resulting persecutions, we were the majority.  We are, after all, the Church.   Wink
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« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2010, 10:17:15 PM »

Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?

Not exactly. You're overlooking the Ethiopians and Eritreans. Also, the British Orthodox are part of the COC, but I don't think it would  really be accurate to call them an Egyptian diaspora. But if the question is modified to include those, I would actually be comfortable saying yes. I do believe in the infallibility and indefectibility of the Church of Christ, however, I tend to believe something along the lines of what William of Ockham (if you want to read more about that: http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/winf.html) whereby this infallibility and indefectibility can very well be satisfied by the continuation in purity of the most obscure section of Christendom. Thus, I think that Christian truth could be as obscure as the OO churches, or perhaps it could hypothetically be even more obscure than that. For instance, it could very well get down to one particular church like the ACE. Or it could even be down to a handful of bishops and their flocks. I thank God that the situation is not that severe.

The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians

No, it's the Ethiopians.

who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.

Hmmm. I have had a very different experience of the Armenians around here.

The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians.

We have had very different experiences of these two groups. The Copts around here seem very insular and uninterested in outsiders.

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently

You're free to think that. But I think all that is logically required by the promises of Christ is that there will always be a flock (I don't know how many bishops that would require at the bare minimum, 1? 2? 3?) with the foundational faith and Sacraments. And seeing as how the distinguishing differences between EO and OO could very well touch on compromise of Christological orthodoxy, I think it would be best to not think beyond what is logically required in terms of the size of the Church lest we be led to trespass upon what is required in terms of dogmatic orthodoxy.

(Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).

They do now. From what I can tell, they're right now the 5th largest international community of Christians by number of believers (estimated at 75 million), after Catholics, EO, Pentecostals, and Anglicans. At certain times in the past they probably possessed a larger chunk of Christendom.
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« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2010, 10:18:36 PM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
Here's a question for you:
Could all three Churches OO, EO, RC be "true" to some very large extent, but none of the three has the ideal absolute 100% true "truth" that you may be looking for?


If that were the case, then it seems that scriptures lie about the Church being the pillar and foundation of truth.



No, It just means that the Church is all broken up due to human weakness, but the truth is that God is love and he loves us and wants to reconcile use to himself through his grace which comes out of the sacraments/Mysteries of the Church.  It seems to me that some people have a problem with this definition of the Church because the have ulterior motives to just faith in Christ.  Some people want to use the Church as a weapon to beat others over the head with in order to make themselves feel more superior to others.  They take every little statement and anathema that clerics in past centuries have hurled against one another and society and try to pretend that these are still binding and relevant by today's standards. 

I agree that at times people do use the Church as a weapon like this. But does misuse of the truth mean that its no longer truth?
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« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2010, 10:21:18 PM »

No, It just means that the Church is all broken up due to human weakness,

In the sense that it seems to be spoken of right now in this thread, many here would view that as simply impossible.
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« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2010, 10:22:35 PM »

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Of course not. There's no such thing.

Where do you get the idea that you have the authority to proclaim that there is of course no true Church?
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« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2010, 10:26:10 PM »

Well, from our point of view, prior to the Chalcedonian schism and the resulting persecutions, we were the majority.  We are, after all, the Church.   Wink

It would seem that right now the OO constitute somewhere around 3-5% of Christendom. I have a feeling that there were other times in history even after Chalcedon in which they held a significantly larger chunk of Christendom than that.
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« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2010, 10:33:00 PM »

In the centuries immediately after Chalcedon, that's definitely true.  After centuries of martyrdom at the hands of others, however, our numbers here on earth have been decimated.  I'd like to think that among the martyrs in heaven the OO's are the majority.   Smiley
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« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2010, 11:12:31 PM »

Is the Orthodox Church the true Church? Of course not. There's no such thing.

Where do you get the idea that you have the authority to proclaim that there is of course no true Church?

It's quite obvious to those who have eyes to see. I am not proclaiming anything with authority, I'm merely making a statement about reality.
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« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2010, 11:14:40 PM »

Well it seems to me that the OO's would have an even bigger problem in my ecclesiastical worldview then do the EO's.  Am I really supposed to believe that the true fullness of the Christian faith is to be found only in scattered communities in Egypt, Armenia, parts of Syria and India (Plus their respective Diaspora's around the world)?  The largest group of OO's seem to be the Armenians who, from my personal experience are very clannish and not so welcoming of outsiders whom they seem to feel would pollute their already diminishing bloodline.  The Copts though are very friendly and, from what I've heard open to missionary work amongst their fellow Moslem Egyptians. 

It just doesn't seem possible to me that God Almighty would have let his one true Church become so diminished in the way that the OO's are presently (Was their ever a time when they were the majority faith or, at least had large numbers of believers amongst Christians?).
Here's a question for you:
Could all three Churches OO, EO, RC be "true" to some very large extent, but none of the three has the ideal absolute 100% true "truth" that you may be looking for?


If that were the case, then it seems that scriptures lie about the Church being the pillar and foundation of truth.



No, It just means that the Church is all broken up due to human weakness, but the truth is that God is love and he loves us and wants to reconcile use to himself through his grace which comes out of the sacraments/Mysteries of the Church.  It seems to me that some people have a problem with this definition of the Church because the have ulterior motives to just faith in Christ.  Some people want to use the Church as a weapon to beat others over the head with in order to make themselves feel more superior to others.  They take every little statement and anathema that clerics in past centuries have hurled against one another and society and try to pretend that these are still binding and relevant by today's standards. 

I agree that at times people do use the Church as a weapon like this. But does misuse of the truth mean that its no longer truth?
It is not just the "misuse" of truth, it concerns the changing definition about what is the true teaching.
Let’s look at the past “true” teachings of the EO, OO, and RC churches:
Ephesians: 6:5 “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.”
Colossians 3:22:” Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.”
1Peter 2:18: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.”
In my personal opinion, this  true teaching has changed and it is no longer considered to be the true teaching of any one of the three Churches that, for example,  a beautiful black African female slave has to submit herself to her harsh white European slave master. Recall that in America, white European Catholic priests bought and  held black African slaves as did many white Catholic laypeople in the south.
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« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2010, 12:02:39 AM »

"Is the Orthodox Church really true?"

Orthodoxy is just the best expression of Christianity around.

Or as I like to say: 'Bout as true as they come!
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