Author Topic: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy  (Read 5779 times)

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2010, 09:36:18 AM »

There are many instances where the Vatican has made deep and profound apology but that seems always to get thrown in our faces.  I've never seen any similar Orthodox statements, so I can't say if they exist or not.


There have not been any Vatican apologies.

The heartfelt apologies which John Paul apparently wished to make were subverted by Cardinal Ratzinger who saw John Paul as naively creating a dangerous precedent for the Roman Catholic Church and diminishing its dignity as the Una Sancta.

So grab some of those apologies and see what they became under Ratzinger's influence --- they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

 ::)

Vintage

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2010, 09:46:01 AM »

There are many instances where the Vatican has made deep and profound apology but that seems always to get thrown in our faces.  I've never seen any similar Orthodox statements, so I can't say if they exist or not.


There have not been any Vatican apologies.

The heartfelt apologies which John Paul apparently wished to make were subverted by Cardinal Ratzinger who saw John Paul as naively creating a dangerous precedent for the Roman Catholic Church and diminishing its dignity as the Una Sancta.

So grab some of those apologies and see what they became under Ratzinger's influence --- they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

 ::)

Vintage

Athens, 2001, and an example of the very carefully nuanced non-apologies issued by Pope John Paul  (crafted by Cardinal Ratzinger.)

"For the occasions past and present, when the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by actions and omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him."

If you do a search on this 'apology' you will find the stinging criticisms of this 'apology' in the Orthodox press.   

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2010, 09:58:23 AM »

There are many instances where the Vatican has made deep and profound apology but that seems always to get thrown in our faces.  I've never seen any similar Orthodox statements, so I can't say if they exist or not.


There have not been any Vatican apologies.

The heartfelt apologies which John Paul apparently wished to make were subverted by Cardinal Ratzinger who saw John Paul as naively creating a dangerous precedent for the Roman Catholic Church and diminishing its dignity as the Una Sancta.

So grab some of those apologies and see what they became under Ratzinger's influence --- they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

 ::)

Vintage

Athens, 2001, and an example of the very carefully nuanced non-apologies issued by Pope John Paul  (crafted by Cardinal Ratzinger.)

"For the occasions past and present, when the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by actions and omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him."

If you do a search on this 'apology' you will find the stinging criticisms of this 'apology' in the Orthodox press.   

No doubt.  There are many Orthodox who can make something evil out of anything Catholic.  You've heard priests talk about stomping on consecrated eucharist if it is Catholic because it is nothing.

As I said, most of the time Catholic apologies fall on deaf ears.

There happens to be a very long and beautiful Vatican document enumerating a long list of things that the Church holds in sorrow in her heart and prayer life...

You know so much about us...I am surprised you don't know it.

Maybe some day when I have more time.

M.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2010, 10:04:25 AM »

There are many instances where the Vatican has made deep and profound apology but that seems always to get thrown in our faces.  I've never seen any similar Orthodox statements, so I can't say if they exist or not.


There have not been any Vatican apologies.

The heartfelt apologies which John Paul apparently wished to make were subverted by Cardinal Ratzinger who saw John Paul as naively creating a dangerous precedent for the Roman Catholic Church and diminishing its dignity as the Una Sancta.

So grab some of those apologies and see what they became under Ratzinger's influence --- they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

 ::)

Vintage

Athens, 2001, and an example of the very carefully nuanced non-apologies issued by Pope John Paul  (crafted by Cardinal Ratzinger.)

"For the occasions past and present, when the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by actions and omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him."

If you do a search on this 'apology' you will find the stinging criticisms of this 'apology' in the Orthodox press.   

No doubt.  There are many Orthodox who can make something evil out of anything Catholic.

It's not evil, Elijahmaria, it is not evil to ask God to forgive.   But it is not an apology.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2010, 10:11:33 AM »

There are many instances where the Vatican has made deep and profound apology but that seems always to get thrown in our faces.  I've never seen any similar Orthodox statements, so I can't say if they exist or not.


There have not been any Vatican apologies.

The heartfelt apologies which John Paul apparently wished to make were subverted by Cardinal Ratzinger who saw John Paul as naively creating a dangerous precedent for the Roman Catholic Church and diminishing its dignity as the Una Sancta.

So grab some of those apologies and see what they became under Ratzinger's influence --- they actually became not an apology to the victims but a prayer offered by the Pope that God would forgive the Roman Catholics who had committed the wrong.

This cunning was not lost on the Orthodox.

 ::)

Vintage



Athens, 2001, and an example of the very carefully nuanced non-apologies issued by Pope John Paul  (crafted by Cardinal Ratzinger.)

"For the occasions past and present, when the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by actions and omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him."

If you do a search on this 'apology' you will find the stinging criticisms of this 'apology' in the Orthodox press.   

No doubt.  There are many Orthodox who can make something evil out of anything Catholic.

It's not evil, Elijahmaria, it is not evil to ask God to forgive.   But it is not an apology.

There is no forgiveness without genuine compunction and the firm amendment not to sin again.

That is Catholic teaching.

That is what the Orthodox who reject that statement spit on and kick back on us.  It is what I have come to expect, and why I wish my Church would stop doing it because it is falling on deaf ears.  We should hold private services in our rooms and stop heaping ashes on our heads in public so we can be mocked. 

Orthodox who do that are wrong and need to apologize.

M.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2010, 10:28:28 AM »
"The Pope Among the Orthodox"
http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol4no2/Pope%20Among%20Orthodox.htm

"The Orthodox view of the Catholic Church is often a curious mélange of fact, fantasy, cultural prejudice, sublime theological misunderstanding, resentment, reasonable disagreement and unreasonable dread."
~ David Hart of Duke University Divinity School

Let's all have a nice cup of tea and go home.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2010, 10:40:03 AM »
"The Pope Among the Orthodox"
http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol4no2/Pope%20Among%20Orthodox.htm

"The Orthodox view of the Catholic Church is often a curious mélange of fact, fantasy, cultural prejudice, sublime theological misunderstanding, resentment, reasonable disagreement and unreasonable dread."
~ David Hart of Duke University Divinity School

Let's all have a nice cup of tea and go home.

You are welcome to my house for tea any time and I would not hesitate to knock on your door at a reasonable hour.

Sometimes the Hart Brothers give me reason to go  ???, but I rather like this characterization of David's here.  Eases my Ortho-headache...and the heartache that goes with it.

M.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 10:40:51 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2010, 10:52:18 AM »
"The Pope Among the Orthodox"
http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol4no2/Pope%20Among%20Orthodox.htm

"The Orthodox view of the Catholic Church is often a curious mélange of fact, fantasy, cultural prejudice, sublime theological misunderstanding, resentment, reasonable disagreement and unreasonable dread."
~ David Hart of Duke University Divinity School

Let's all have a nice cup of tea and go home.

And of course the memorable statement of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.


Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2010, 10:53:43 AM »

[You are welcome to my house for tea any time and I would not hesitate to knock on your door at a reasonable hour.


Why, thank you.  I am sure we would have lots of enjoyable conversation if we lived in the same town.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2010, 11:10:43 AM »
"The Pope Among the Orthodox"
http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol4no2/Pope%20Among%20Orthodox.htm

"The Orthodox view of the Catholic Church is often a curious mélange of fact, fantasy, cultural prejudice, sublime theological misunderstanding, resentment, reasonable disagreement and unreasonable dread."
~ David Hart of Duke University Divinity School

Let's all have a nice cup of tea and go home.

And of course the memorable statement of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.



Ya know... we can take Counsel of our Fears or we can go bravely down that long and narrow road together...Ut Unum Sint.

M.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2010, 11:14:05 AM »
"The Pope Among the Orthodox"
http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol4no2/Pope%20Among%20Orthodox.htm

"The Orthodox view of the Catholic Church is often a curious mélange of fact, fantasy, cultural prejudice, sublime theological misunderstanding, resentment, reasonable disagreement and unreasonable dread."
~ David Hart of Duke University Divinity School

Let's all have a nice cup of tea and go home.

And of course the memorable statement of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.



Ya know... we can take Counsel of our Fears or we can go bravely down that long and narrow road together...Ut Unum Sint.

M.
au contraire, that road is broad and wide, and we know it goes through  a wide open gate.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2010, 11:23:52 AM »
"The Pope Among the Orthodox"
http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol4no2/Pope%20Among%20Orthodox.htm

"The Orthodox view of the Catholic Church is often a curious mélange of fact, fantasy, cultural prejudice, sublime theological misunderstanding, resentment, reasonable disagreement and unreasonable dread."
~ David Hart of Duke University Divinity School

Let's all have a nice cup of tea and go home.

And of course the memorable statement of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.



Ya know... we can take Counsel of our Fears or we can go bravely down that long and narrow road together...Ut Unum Sint.

M.
au contraire, that road is broad and wide, and we know it goes through  a wide open gate.

Who are you and what feeds this attitude of your's? 

Offline Fr. George

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2010, 11:26:45 AM »
For the benefit of those wondering what official-type policy is on citations:

If you get an article from the web, you have to provide the link, just as if you get an article from a printed media (book, magazine, newspaper), you have to provide the page number in addition to the other usual info (title, volume, author, etc.).

Make sense?

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: More Orthodox vs Catholic Confusion inside Orthodoxy
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2010, 11:27:33 AM »
Since there seems to be no relevant or useful discussion here, the thread is hereby locked.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.