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Author Topic: Doctrinal Theology is not separated from Moral Theology  (Read 4458 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« on: May 20, 2010, 11:38:45 AM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

So what is this showboating about?

No wonder they are calling Archbishop Hilarion a heretic!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++


Catholics and Russian Orthodox Seen as Allies
Moscow Patriarchate Sponsors 2-Day Event in Vatican

By Carmen Elena Villa
 
ROME, MAY 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Catholics and Orthodox are growing in the awareness they are not competitors but allies, says an official from the Moscow Patriarchate.

Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev of Volokolamsk, chairman of the Department of External Affairs of the Moscow Patriarchate, affirmed this today at a press conference in the headquarters of the Pontifical Council for Culture.

That council, along with the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Moscow Patriarchate, is sponsoring a Day of Russian Culture and Spirituality in the Vatican, being held today and Thursday.

Archbishop Hilarion, himself an accomplished music composer, noted how culture, art and music have become indispensable in Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.

Through this language, "we can say what we cannot express with diplomatic or political words," he contended. "It is possible to live this dialogue at several levels, also with simple persons."

As part of the cultural event, there will be a concert Thursday in honor of Benedict XVI, sponsored by the patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, His Holiness Kirill I.

Past rivalries

Archbishop Hilarion went on to note that in both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church "the awareness has grown of not being in competition, but of being allies." The rivalries of the past, he added, "must stay there, in the past."

He noted that cultural changes, particularly the "de-Christianization of our countries," is calling for "greater collaboration."

Other cultural changes call increasingly for an open dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox, the prelate said: "Today there are many mixed marriages. We often find an Orthodox person next to a Catholic."
 
"The whole of Russian culture has been founded on a Christian world," recalled the archbishop."When we were banned from all activities, culture enabled us to go forward."

He also reflected how Russian spiritual music is much heard in Catholic liturgy, not to mention how many persons read Dostoyevsky and other authors, he noted.
 
Friends of Benedict

Archbishop Hilarion affirmed that for many Orthodox, "the election of Benedict XVI was received positively," especially because of "his position on moral questions."

"There is a commitment [among the Orthodox] to observe and promote traditional values," he said.
 
In regard to the theological dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics, the archbishop projected that it will last for many years.
 
"Each stage of the dialogue ends with a text where Catholics and Orthodox say something together," he explained. "What is important is that these texts are received not only by theologians but also by the faithful."
 
Surmounting differences
 
For his part, Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the cultural event can become an opportunity "to deepen our ecumenical relations themselves in a new dimension."
 
"The sad age-old separation between East and West was not only caused by theological differences or political conflicts, but especially by distance and a cultural alienation," he explained.

This distance must be overcome, the cardinal affirmed, not in the sense of a leveling "but in the sense of a mutual enrichment, a communion without fusion or absorption."
 
Such a communion, he proposed, can be "a strong common testimony of the richness of European culture and its Christian roots -- today, lamentably forgotten by many and even denied and rejected."

 
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 11:52:31 AM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 


What's the beef?  Roman Catholicism and Islam were quite happy to cuddle up together on moral teaching at that international Conference on Women's Rights held in China, to oppose the anti-life representatives.

So clearly there *can* be a separation of doctrinal theology and moral theology - unless you want to argue that the theology of Islam is the same as Roman Catholicism's   Sad
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 11:57:42 AM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 


What's the beef?  Roman Catholicism and Islam were quite happy to cuddle up together on moral teaching at that international Conference on Women's Rights held in China, to oppose the anti-life representatives.

So clearly there *can* be a separation of doctrinal theology and moral theology - unless you want to argue that the theology of Islam is the same as Roman Catholicism's   Sad

Oh!!  You must have documents that I don't have.  I didn't know we were considering entering into Communion with Islam or sharing an agenda to evangelize Europe.

 Roll Eyes

M.
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 12:09:45 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 


What's the beef?  Roman Catholicism and Islam were quite happy to cuddle up together on moral teaching at that international Conference on Women's Rights held in China, to oppose the anti-life representatives.

So clearly there *can* be a separation of doctrinal theology and moral theology - unless you want to argue that the theology of Islam is the same as Roman Catholicism's   Sad

Oh!!  You must have documents that I don't have.  I didn't know we were considering entering into Communion with Islam or sharing an agenda to evangelize Europe.


You are being disingenuous.  Look at the title you gave this thread and look at your question:

Quote
How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? [size]

If co-operating on moral issues with the Catholics makes Met Hilarion a heretic, what does that make the Pope for co-operating with the Muslims at the China Conference? A heretic too?


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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 12:29:55 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 


What's the beef?  Roman Catholicism and Islam were quite happy to cuddle up together on moral teaching at that international Conference on Women's Rights held in China, to oppose the anti-life representatives.

So clearly there *can* be a separation of doctrinal theology and moral theology - unless you want to argue that the theology of Islam is the same as Roman Catholicism's   Sad

Oh!!  You must have documents that I don't have.  I didn't know we were considering entering into Communion with Islam or sharing an agenda to evangelize Europe.


You are being disingenuous.  Look at the title you gave this thread and look at your question:

Quote
How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? [size]

If co-operating on moral issues with the Catholics makes Met Hilarion a heretic, what does that make the Pope for co-operating with the Muslims at the China Conference? A heretic too?




As I said I had no idea there were bi-lateral discussions between the Catholic Church and Isalm aimed Union.

Please photo-copy the documents and post them here  Roll Eyes

M.
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 01:46:08 PM »

As I said I had no idea there were bi-lateral discussions between the Catholic Church and Isalm aimed Union.

Well, there are at least three official Roman Catholic-Muslim dialogues that I know of, all sponsored by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. And, at least according to what I was told at Boston College, other such international dialogues between Catholics and Muslims in response to Nostra Aetate 3. Quite common. JPII encouraged it informally and formally in speeches, publications, etc., as has Benedict XVI, especially since the publication of "Common Word."

That's why the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue continues to sponsor an on-going Roman Catholic-Muslim Forum, as well as a long-lived series of official Colloquia on Roman Catholic-Muslim matters of faith and ethics.

If you believe bi-lateral discussions of this sort are a problem, then you should definitely alert the International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commisson for Unity and Mission, and, to a lesser extent, the Bishops involved in any of the following dialogues between:

1. World Sikh Council - America Region (WSC-AR) and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops
2. Lutheran-Roman Catholics
3. Mennonite-Roman Catholics
4. Methodist-Roman
5. Pentecostal-Roman Catholics
6. Roman Catholic Church-Assyrian Church of the East
7. Roman Catholic Church-Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
8. Roman Catholic-Evangelical Dialogue (World Evangelical Fellowship)

I'm sure there are many others.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 01:46:31 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 01:48:14 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.

Thanks!!

M.

As I said I had no idea there were bi-lateral discussions between the Catholic Church and Isalm aimed Union.

Well, there are at least three official Roman Catholic-Muslim dialogues that I know of, all sponsored by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. And, at least according to what I was told at Boston College, other such international dialogues between Catholics and Muslims in response to Nostra Aetate 3. Quite common. JPII encouraged it informally and formally in speeches, publications, etc., as has Benedict XVI, especially since the publication of "Common Word."

That's why the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue continues to sponsor an on-going Roman Catholic-Muslim Forum, as well as a long-lived series of official Colloquia on Roman Catholic-Muslim matters of faith and ethics.

If you believe bi-lateral discussions of this sort are a problem, then you should definitely alert the International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commisson for Unity and Mission, and, to a lesser extent, the Bishops involved in any of the following dialogues between:

1. World Sikh Council - America Region (WSC-AR) and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops
2. Lutheran-Roman Catholics
3. Mennonite-Roman Catholics
4. Methodist-Roman
5. Pentecostal-Roman Catholics
6. Roman Catholic Church-Assyrian Church of the East
7. Roman Catholic Church-Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
8. Roman Catholic-Evangelical Dialogue (World Evangelical Fellowship)

I'm sure there are many others.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 01:53:35 PM »

Apparently Orthodoxy believes that doctrinal theology and moral theology are unrelated.  That is an interesting development in my understanding of things, so I will be giving it some thought for the future.

Nonetheless I am still not convinced that there's much if anything to be gained by pretending to share morality when Orthodox formally allows for abortion and contraception and divorce and the Catholic Church teaches formally and emphatically against ALL abortion, all forms of contraception and divorce.

I am aware there are pastoral considerations in both confessions but the formal teachings are widely divergent. 

So I am not sure what Metropolitan Hilarion is saying in that article that I posted before the thread got derailed...

M.
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2010, 01:55:49 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.

Not quite as surprised as he would be were you to show him your posts on this thread. Or does he too disagree with the Curia that is sponsoring (and applauding) Met. Hilarion's words?
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2010, 02:07:20 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.


He shouldn't.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2010, 02:13:30 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.


He shouldn't.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg

I hear it is a great grace to prefer a turban.

Mary
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2010, 02:24:38 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.


He shouldn't.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg

I hear it is a great grace to prefer a turban.

Mary
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 02:25:13 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2010, 02:30:02 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.


He shouldn't.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg

I hear it is a great grace to prefer a turban.

Mary
Over kissing a Quran or an Ultramontanist's slipper, yes. Take a look at my avatar.

Yes.  Your turban allows you to fit in much better than a beanie does  Grin  In future that will most likely come in quite handily.

So when is Metropolitan Hilarion to be deposed for his heresy?

M.
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2010, 02:36:14 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.


He shouldn't.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg

I hear it is a great grace to prefer a turban.

Mary
Over kissing a Quran or an Ultramontanist's slipper, yes. Take a look at my avatar.

Yes.  Your turban allows you to fit in much better than a beanie does  Grin  In future that will most likely come in quite handily.

So when is Metropolitan Hilarion to be deposed for his heresy?
What heresy?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2010, 02:39:06 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.


He shouldn't.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg

I hear it is a great grace to prefer a turban.

Mary
Over kissing a Quran or an Ultramontanist's slipper, yes. Take a look at my avatar.

Yes.  Your turban allows you to fit in much better than a beanie does  Grin  In future that will most likely come in quite handily.

So when is Metropolitan Hilarion to be deposed for his heresy?
What heresy?

That is what I am trying to find out.  He's been called a heretic and he seems to think that Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church have something to offer in a common moral teaching.  I don't see any common moral teaching...and apparently there's talk of resumption of communion at some point.

Mary
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2010, 02:53:26 PM »

Mary,

One can agree about moral teachings without thinking about getting into communion with them.  Just because the Catholic Church has dialogues with non-Christians doesn't mean the dialogues primary purpose is communion.  A dialogue's primary purpose is simply communication, not communion (wow...second time I used both those words in one post this week).

Both the Catholic and the Orthodox churches for instance agree abortion is wrong.  What's wrong with making an agreed statement based on that?  Just because we disagree on dogma doesn't mean we disagree with everything!
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2010, 03:15:31 PM »

Mary,

One can agree about moral teachings without thinking about getting into communion with them.  Just because the Catholic Church has dialogues with non-Christians doesn't mean the dialogues primary purpose is communion.  A dialogue's primary purpose is simply communication, not communion (wow...second time I used both those words in one post this week).

Both the Catholic and the Orthodox churches for instance agree abortion is wrong.  What's wrong with making an agreed statement based on that?  Just because we disagree on dogma doesn't mean we disagree with everything!

It seems to me that what is being suggested is a collaboration to work to save the collective souls of Christian Europe...not just hoppin' on a committee somewhere to lobby for more or less contraception or fewer abortions.

I don't see that as possible at all.  

I will modify that to say I don't see that as at all possible, given the kinds of attitudes I see on Internet venues that are open to Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.  To much vitriol and disparagement, mockery and idle meanness to have any good effect in any kind of evangelical project of any kind.

Mary
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 10:33:32 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  


What's the beef?  Roman Catholicism and Islam were quite happy to cuddle up together on moral teaching at that international Conference on Women's Rights held in China, to oppose the anti-life representatives.

So clearly there *can* be a separation of doctrinal theology and moral theology - unless you want to argue that the theology of Islam is the same as Roman Catholicism's   Sad

Oh!!  You must have documents that I don't have.  I didn't know we were considering entering into Communion with Islam or sharing an agenda to evangelize Europe.


You are being disingenuous.  Look at the title you gave this thread and look at your question:

Quote
How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? [size]

If co-operating on moral issues with the Catholics makes Met Hilarion a heretic, what does that make the Pope for co-operating with the Muslims at the China Conference? A heretic too?




As I said I had no idea there were bi-lateral discussions between the Catholic Church and Isalm aimed Union.

Please photo-copy the documents and post them here  Roll Eyes

You are out of touch.  In 2005 almost immediately after Benedict XVI's election the Russian Church offered to co-operate with the Vatican to fight back the secularisation of Europe.  The point was stressed that this was NOT aimed at union but a way to combat a common enemy.
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2010, 10:38:22 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.


He shouldn't.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg

I hear it is a great grace to prefer a turban.

Mary
Over kissing a Quran or an Ultramontanist's slipper, yes. Take a look at my avatar.

Yes.  Your turban allows you to fit in much better than a beanie does  Grin  In future that will most likely come in quite handily.

So when is Metropolitan Hilarion to be deposed for his heresy?
What heresy?

That is what I am trying to find out. 

This is too funny for words!!!   laugh Don't you really know why they (=about 5 people) were shouting "heretic" at him in his Moscow church??!!

Because he had said that women may wear pants in church !!!


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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2010, 10:49:09 PM »

Oh my.  I had no idea that the Catholic Church was considering Eucharistic communion with Islam!!  I'll have to let my spiritual father know.  He's going to be so surprised.


He shouldn't.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg

I hear it is a great grace to prefer a turban.

Mary
Over kissing a Quran or an Ultramontanist's slipper, yes. Take a look at my avatar.

Yes.  Your turban allows you to fit in much better than a beanie does  Grin  In future that will most likely come in quite handily.

So when is Metropolitan Hilarion to be deposed for his heresy?
What heresy?

That is what I am trying to find out. 

This is too funny for words!!!   laugh Don't you really know why they (=about 5 people) were shouting "heretic" at him in his Moscow church??!!

Because he had said that women may wear pants in church !!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pMyWJ--g7Oc/SRlamHLocFI/AAAAAAAAFO4/5lq85XsUb_Y/s400/a023ht_AltarGirl.jpg
She doesn't seem to be wearing pants.
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2010, 11:00:19 PM »


Yes.  Your turban allows you to fit in much better than a beanie does  Grin  In future that will most likely come in quite handily.

So when is Metropolitan Hilarion to be deposed for his heresy?

M.
My goodness. What purpose is there in starting these threads, let alone us reading them if you keep making such silly statements like this, Mary?

Good grief.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 12:05:38 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

Well the answer obviously is, they do agree, and even those crazy Unitarians agree a lot, so what does this all say? Well, what it says is that you cannot construct a system out of the faultiness of any "system". I think the only thing that you could really attribute to a systematic difference is that Roman moral theology is, due to its faith in scholastic theology, more willing to rush into issues and make statements where other churches fear to tread so boldly. But it doesn't necessarily explain why they give answers that are at variance with those of other churches.
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 12:22:13 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

Well the answer obviously is, they do agree, and even those crazy Unitarians agree a lot, so what does this all say? Well, what it says is that you cannot construct a system out of the faultiness of any "system". I think the only thing that you could really attribute to a systematic difference is that Roman moral theology is, due to its faith in scholastic theology, more willing to rush into issues and make statements where other churches fear to tread so boldly. But it doesn't necessarily explain why they give answers that are at variance with those of other churches.

Confidence that systematic thinking embedded in the foundament [a neologism meaning foundational fundament!!] of revelation produces the most complete and accurate results.

Howzzat?

I prefer that characterization, as a Catholic, of course.

My Faith is in, from and through Jesus Christ.  Protestants and Orthodox notwithstanding.

Mary

M.
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 01:34:11 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 

Both churches teach that man is created in the image and likeness of God and that human life should be treated likewise. It is something that is commonly held. The difference in moral teaching is more practical in the level of dogmatizion and the ultra strict enforcement vs. the provision of economy / dispensation in situations to account for individual circumstances.
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2010, 01:40:34 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 

Both churches teach that man is created in the image and likeness of God and that human life should be treated likewise. It is something that is commonly held. The difference in moral teaching is more practical in the level of dogmatizion and the ultra strict enforcement vs. the provision of economy / dispensation in situations to account for individual circumstances.

You are quite right!  Smiley

You are also very dear, whoever you are, and the Orthodox Church is very fortunate to have you...soon!

Mary
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2010, 02:00:25 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 

Both churches teach that man is created in the image and likeness of God and that human life should be treated likewise. It is something that is commonly held. The difference in moral teaching is more practical in the level of dogmatizion and the ultra strict enforcement vs. the provision of economy / dispensation in situations to account for individual circumstances.

You are quite right!  Smiley

You are also very dear, whoever you are, and the Orthodox Church is very fortunate to have you...soon!

Mary

Thank you.
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2010, 02:05:40 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 

Both churches teach that man is created in the image and likeness of God and that human life should be treated likewise. It is something that is commonly held. The difference in moral teaching is more practical in the level of dogmatizion and the ultra strict enforcement vs. the provision of economy / dispensation in situations to account for individual circumstances.

You are quite right!  Smiley

You are also very dear, whoever you are, and the Orthodox Church is very fortunate to have you...soon!

Mary

Thank you.

Most welcome.  Forgive me my transgressions.

M.
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2010, 02:11:13 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

Well the answer obviously is, they do agree, and even those crazy Unitarians agree a lot, so what does this all say? Well, what it says is that you cannot construct a system out of the faultiness of any "system". I think the only thing that you could really attribute to a systematic difference is that Roman moral theology is, due to its faith in scholastic theology, more willing to rush into issues and make statements where other churches fear to tread so boldly. But it doesn't necessarily explain why they give answers that are at variance with those of other churches.

Confidence that systematic thinking embedded in the foundament [a neologism meaning foundational fundament!!] of revelation produces the most complete and accurate results.

Howzzat?

I do not see how this addresses what I said; it seems nothing more than theo-glurge.

Quote
My Faith is in, from and through Jesus Christ.  Protestants and Orthodox notwithstanding.

Your faith may be in Christ, but it is from the apostles and fathers and their successors, and it is through the church.
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2010, 03:04:38 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

Well the answer obviously is, they do agree, and even those crazy Unitarians agree a lot, so what does this all say? Well, what it says is that you cannot construct a system out of the faultiness of any "system". I think the only thing that you could really attribute to a systematic difference is that Roman moral theology is, due to its faith in scholastic theology, more willing to rush into issues and make statements where other churches fear to tread so boldly. But it doesn't necessarily explain why they give answers that are at variance with those of other churches.

Confidence that systematic thinking embedded in the foundament [a neologism meaning foundational fundament!!] of revelation produces the most complete and accurate results.

Howzzat?

I do not see how this addresses what I said; it seems nothing more than theo-glurge.

Quote
My Faith is in, from and through Jesus Christ.  Protestants and Orthodox notwithstanding.

Your faith may be in Christ, but it is from the apostles and fathers and their successors, and it is through the church.


One Holy Catholic and Apostolic...

I am aware.

Glurg-- Kiss

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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2010, 08:09:25 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

Well the answer obviously is, they do agree, and even those crazy Unitarians agree a lot, so what does this all say? Well, what it says is that you cannot construct a system out of the faultiness of any "system". I think the only thing that you could really attribute to a systematic difference is that Roman moral theology is, due to its faith in scholastic theology, more willing to rush into issues and make statements where other churches fear to tread so boldly. But it doesn't necessarily explain why they give answers that are at variance with those of other churches.

Confidence that systematic thinking embedded in the foundament [a neologism meaning foundational fundament!!] of revelation produces the most complete and accurate results.

Howzzat?

I do not see how this addresses what I said; it seems nothing more than theo-glurge.

Quote
My Faith is in, from and through Jesus Christ.  Protestants and Orthodox notwithstanding.

Your faith may be in Christ, but it is from the apostles and fathers and their successors, and it is through the church.


One Holy Catholic and Apostolic...

I am aware.

Glurg-- Kiss

Again, I do not see that you are bothering to talk to me.
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2010, 08:11:09 PM »

How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

Well the answer obviously is, they do agree, and even those crazy Unitarians agree a lot, so what does this all say? Well, what it says is that you cannot construct a system out of the faultiness of any "system". I think the only thing that you could really attribute to a systematic difference is that Roman moral theology is, due to its faith in scholastic theology, more willing to rush into issues and make statements where other churches fear to tread so boldly. But it doesn't necessarily explain why they give answers that are at variance with those of other churches.

Confidence that systematic thinking embedded in the foundament [a neologism meaning foundational fundament!!] of revelation produces the most complete and accurate results.

Howzzat?

I do not see how this addresses what I said; it seems nothing more than theo-glurge.

Quote
My Faith is in, from and through Jesus Christ.  Protestants and Orthodox notwithstanding.

Your faith may be in Christ, but it is from the apostles and fathers and their successors, and it is through the church.


One Holy Catholic and Apostolic...

I am aware.

Glurg-- Kiss

Again, I do not see that you are bothering to talk to me.

I don't talk to people who write theo-glurge...Why would you want to?

Mary
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2010, 09:31:30 PM »

I don't talk to people who write theo-glurge...Why would you want to?

What are you talking about?
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« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2010, 05:04:18 AM »


How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

So what is this showboating about?

Dear Mary,

As I mentioned on another thread, I think your apprehension of Catholicism as you would like it to be and Catholicism as the Pope sees it are not the same.  

We see that the Pope wishes to work with the Orthodox on the re-evangelisation of Europe and plainly he does not see our differences in moral teaching as preventing this co-operative evangelisation.

I have created a new thread for this topic at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27801.new.html

and here is a sampling to whet your appetite......


++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow Is Born

The common objective: the "new evangelization" of Europe. A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church visits the Vatican, which publishes an anthology of the patriarch's writings. A meeting between Kirill and Benedict XVI keeps getting closer




ROME, May 24, 2010 – Benedict XVI will soon create a new "pontifical council" expressly dedicated to the "new evangelization." Not for mission countries where the congregation "de propaganda fide" is already at work. But for the countries of ancient Christian tradition that are today in danger of losing the faith.

Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants to link his pontificate to this initiative. And this was the main topic that he discussed one morning in the spring of 2009, at Castel Gandolfo, with four prominent cardinals he had called for consultation: Camillo Ruini, Angelo Bagnasco, Christoph Schönborn, and Angelo Scola, the last being the most resolute in promoting the institution of the new office.

Meanwhile, one great ally has already united with the pope from outside of the Catholic Church, in this enterprise of a new evangelization.

This great ally is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Extract from
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343399?eng=y
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 05:31:26 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2010, 08:00:23 AM »

It is all empty words without communion.  Very sad to me.  Given the range of teachings, attitudes and aspects visible in Orthodoxy directed at the papal Church, and the sheer volume of doctrinal detritus,  I think it is an effort that is doomed to make things worse.  I am not in favor of evangelizing with yourself for example who spends so much energy on telling Catholics how horrid is their Church.

Mary


How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

So what is this showboating about?

Dear Mary,

As I mentioned on another thread, I think your apprehension of Catholicism as you would like it to be and Catholicism as the Pope sees it are not the same.  

We see that the Pope wishes to work with the Orthodox on the re-evangelisation of Europe and plainly he does not see our differences in moral teaching as preventing this co-operative evangelisation.

I have created a new thread for this topic at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27801.new.html

and here is a sampling to whet your appetite......


++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow Is Born

The common objective: the "new evangelization" of Europe. A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church visits the Vatican, which publishes an anthology of the patriarch's writings. A meeting between Kirill and Benedict XVI keeps getting closer




ROME, May 24, 2010 – Benedict XVI will soon create a new "pontifical council" expressly dedicated to the "new evangelization." Not for mission countries where the congregation "de propaganda fide" is already at work. But for the countries of ancient Christian tradition that are today in danger of losing the faith.

Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants to link his pontificate to this initiative. And this was the main topic that he discussed one morning in the spring of 2009, at Castel Gandolfo, with four prominent cardinals he had called for consultation: Camillo Ruini, Angelo Bagnasco, Christoph Schönborn, and Angelo Scola, the last being the most resolute in promoting the institution of the new office.

Meanwhile, one great ally has already united with the pope from outside of the Catholic Church, in this enterprise of a new evangelization.

This great ally is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Extract from
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343399?eng=y
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 08:00:47 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2010, 09:43:01 AM »

It is all empty words without communion.  Very sad to me. 

Mary,  we must be realistic.  We must start where we are at.  I imagine you are not aware that the Orthodox have stated over and over that communion will not be used and cannot be used as a tool towards unity. Instead it will be the crowning point and glory when unanimity is reached on doctrinal issues.

There is a good booklet on this by Bishop Kallistos Ware "Communion and Intercommunion."




How can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart? 

So what is this showboating about?

Dear Mary,

As I mentioned on another thread, I think your apprehension of Catholicism as you would like it to be and Catholicism as the Pope sees it are not the same.   

We see that the Pope wishes to work with the Orthodox on the re-evangelisation of Europe and plainly he does not see our differences in moral teaching as preventing this co-operative evangelisation.

I have created a new thread for this topic at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27801.new.html

and here is a sampling to whet your appetite......


++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow Is Born

The common objective: the "new evangelization" of Europe. A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church visits the Vatican, which publishes an anthology of the patriarch's writings. A meeting between Kirill and Benedict XVI keeps getting closer




ROME, May 24, 2010 – Benedict XVI will soon create a new "pontifical council" expressly dedicated to the "new evangelization." Not for mission countries where the congregation "de propaganda fide" is already at work. But for the countries of ancient Christian tradition that are today in danger of losing the faith.

Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants to link his pontificate to this initiative. And this was the main topic that he discussed one morning in the spring of 2009, at Castel Gandolfo, with four prominent cardinals he had called for consultation: Camillo Ruini, Angelo Bagnasco, Christoph Schönborn, and Angelo Scola, the last being the most resolute in promoting the institution of the new office.

Meanwhile, one great ally has already united with the pope from outside of the Catholic Church, in this enterprise of a new evangelization.

This great ally is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Extract from
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343399?eng=y
[/quote]
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« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2010, 09:47:59 AM »

It is all empty words without communion.  Very sad to me. 

Mary,  we must be realistic.  We must start where we are at.  I imagine you are not aware that the Orthodox have stated over and over that communion will not be used and cannot be used as a tool towards unity. Instead it will be the crowning point and glory when unanimity is reached on doctrinal issues.

There is a good booklet on this by Bishop Kallistos Ware "Communion and Intercommunion."


I think the Vatican needs to stop giving money to Orthodox countries and pull back from this so-called evangelization project and allow the Orthodox Churches to do what they can to get their own houses in order.   The money shoveled at Orthodoxy can only be tossed back in our faces...after it is spent of course...and called bribes or somebody's due, and the so-called evangelization will consist of the kind of interaction that I am encountering on this Forum at the ground level.

I don't know what the Catholic bishops and cardinals are thinking...but what is happening, from my perspective on the ground, is an egregious waste of time and resources.

Mary
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« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2010, 10:30:30 AM »

It is all empty words without communion.  Very sad to me. 

Mary,  we must be realistic.  We must start where we are at.  I imagine you are not aware that the Orthodox have stated over and over that communion will not be used and cannot be used as a tool towards unity. Instead it will be the crowning point and glory when unanimity is reached on doctrinal issues.

There is a good booklet on this by Bishop Kallistos Ware "Communion and Intercommunion."


I think the Vatican needs to stop giving money to Orthodox countries and pull back from this so-called evangelization project and allow the Orthodox Churches to do what they can to get their own houses in order.   The money shoveled at Orthodoxy can only be tossed back in our faces...after it is spent of course...and called bribes or somebody's due, and the so-called evangelization will consist of the kind of interaction that I am encountering on this Forum at the ground level.

I don't know what the Catholic bishops and cardinals are thinking...but what is happening, from my perspective on the ground, is an egregious waste of time and resources.

Mary

There was an German Catholic organization called "Aid to the Russian Church" which kindly spent money in Russia in the mid 1990s but I don't know if it is still operative.  Very soon after Perestroika the State handed over to the Church the revenue from the import of such things as alcohol and tobacco and the export of precious metals.  This was done as a reparative gesture for the years of persecution and destruction wrecked by the Soviet government.  Thanks to the assistance from the State the Church had an enormous amount of money to rebuild destroyed churches, create new ones, establish seminaries, etc.

The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2010, 10:34:54 AM »


I think the Vatican needs to stop giving money to Orthodox countries and pull back from this so-called evangelization project and allow the Orthodox Churches to do what they can to get their own houses in order.   The money shoveled at Orthodoxy can only be tossed back in our faces...after it is spent of course...and called bribes or somebody's due, and the so-called evangelization will consist of the kind of interaction that I am encountering on this Forum at the ground level.

I don't know what the Catholic bishops and cardinals are thinking...but what is happening, from my perspective on the ground, is an egregious waste of time and resources.

Now how can you say that?  You have told us more than once that the awful Orthodox on this forum are an anomaly and vastly outnumbered by the many many real-life Orthodox whom you know on the ground.  And that these real-life Orthodox accept the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, etc.   I suppose the Cardinals and bishops are thinking of these people.....
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« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2010, 10:43:04 AM »

Now how can you say that?  You have told us more than once that the awful Orthodox on this forum are an anomaly and vastly outnumbered by the many many real-life Orthodox whom you know on the ground.  And that these real-life Orthodox accept the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, etc.   I suppose the Cardinals and bishops are thinking of these people.....

You have noticed this dichotomy also?

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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2010, 10:43:59 AM »


I think the Vatican needs to stop giving money to Orthodox countries and pull back from this so-called evangelization project and allow the Orthodox Churches to do what they can to get their own houses in order.   The money shoveled at Orthodoxy can only be tossed back in our faces...after it is spent of course...and called bribes or somebody's due, and the so-called evangelization will consist of the kind of interaction that I am encountering on this Forum at the ground level.

I don't know what the Catholic bishops and cardinals are thinking...but what is happening, from my perspective on the ground, is an egregious waste of time and resources.

Now how can you say that?  You have told us more than once that the awful Orthodox on this forum are an anomaly and vastly outnumbered by the many many real-life Orthodox whom you know on the ground.  And that these real-life Orthodox accept the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, etc.   I suppose the Cardinals and bishops are thinking of these people.....

That of course would put Orthodoxy into schism.  So I think the Church needs to hold off a bit, till there are more formal doctrinal agreements.

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« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2010, 10:46:33 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin
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« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2010, 10:58:55 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin

You were the one who replied No More Money in response to my post on the impossibility of communion until we reach unanimity on doctrine.   Go back and read your own post.
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« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2010, 11:18:48 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin
I agree. I have not idea why we should be supporting other religions in their endevors.
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« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2010, 11:23:19 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin

You were the one who replied No More Money in response to my post on the impossibility of communion until we reach unanimity on doctrine.   Go back and read your own post.

You are the one who suggested the term "bribes" Father.  It is more of your bottom feeding.

And yes...I think that the Vatican needs to pull way back and allow Orthodoxy to go on her own for a while and clean up her own house.  The other Father Ambrose used to tell me that the lunatic fringe did battle on the Internet.  I thought he was wrong then, and I still think he is wrong.  I hoped for a while to be able to believe him, but I have changed my mind.

I think that the conciliatory Orthodox on places like the Byzantine Forum are the lunatic fringe now.

You may take a great deal of credit for that.

Mary
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« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2010, 11:36:27 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin

I agree. I have not idea why we should be supporting other religions in their endevors.


I do understand it given the fact that the Catholic Church truly has come to the open acceptance of the eastern Orthodox as Sister Churches but I think her open-handed policies have been premature. 

Remember the story I told about the legless man in the bus station who threw my change back when I emptied my pockets and gave him all I had in them.  Maybe I didn't tell it here but it happened to me years ago.  Well in this case, the legless man has kept the money and spits at the giver...frequently.

I realize that one does not give charity for any return, but in this case I think it would have been money better spent to build up people and not to build up Orthodoxy as a religious organization.

As you can see, it is too easily characterized as bribery when it is given to the Orthodox religious organizations.

M.



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« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2010, 11:44:16 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin

I agree. I have not idea why we should be supporting other religions in their endevors.


I do understand it given the fact that the Catholic Church truly has come to the open acceptance of the eastern Orthodox as Sister Churches but I think her open-handed policies have been premature. 

Remember the story I told about the legless man in the bus station who threw my change back when I emptied my pockets and gave him all I had in them.  Maybe I didn't tell it here but it happened to me years ago.  Well in this case, the legless man has kept the money and spits at the giver...frequently.

I realize that one does not give charity for any return, but in this case I think it would have been money better spent to build up people and not to build up Orthodoxy as a religious organization.

As you can see, it is too easily characterized as bribery when it is given to the Orthodox religious organizations.

M.




I do not think that when the "Sister Church" language was used in the past that it meant that we see them as full members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2010, 11:46:00 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin

You were the one who replied No More Money in response to my post on the impossibility of communion until we reach unanimity on doctrine.   Go back and read your own post.

You are the one who suggested the term "bribes" Father.  It is more of your bottom feeding.

And yes...I think that the Vatican needs to pull way back and allow Orthodoxy to go on her own for a while and clean up her own house.  The other Father Ambrose used to tell me that the lunatic fringe did battle on the Internet.  I thought he was wrong then, and I still think he is wrong.  I hoped for a while to be able to believe him, but I have changed my mind.

I think that the conciliatory Orthodox on places like the Byzantine Forum are the lunatic fringe now.

You may take a great deal of credit for that.

Mary

Read Post 35.

I spoke of no communion until doctrinal unanimity.

You immediately replied saying the Catholics should stop giving money.

The connection could not possibly be more clear.  Who's the bottom feeder if not Mary Lanser?
 You know better than to descend to the depths of using such ad hominems as "bottom feeder".  You are therefore receiving this warning to last for the next two months.  If you think my action wrong, feel free to appeal it via PM to Veniamin, Fr. George, or Fr. Chris.

- PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2010, 11:48:45 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin

I agree. I have not idea why we should be supporting other religions in their endevors.


I do understand it given the fact that the Catholic Church truly has come to the open acceptance of the eastern Orthodox as Sister Churches but I think her open-handed policies have been premature. 

Remember the story I told about the legless man in the bus station who threw my change back when I emptied my pockets and gave him all I had in them.  Maybe I didn't tell it here but it happened to me years ago.  Well in this case, the legless man has kept the money and spits at the giver...frequently.

I realize that one does not give charity for any return, but in this case I think it would have been money better spent to build up people and not to build up Orthodoxy as a religious organization.

As you can see, it is too easily characterized as bribery when it is given to the Orthodox religious organizations.

M.

I do not think that when the "Sister Church" language was used in the past that it meant that we see them as full members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Apostolic Succession, graced sacraments, holy liturgies...everything but communion with the Catholic Church....That is a significant change of heart and recognition of reality.

But as I said I think it was premature and done with a bleeding heart and not a clear nous.

M.
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« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2010, 11:51:09 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin

You were the one who replied No More Money in response to my post on the impossibility of communion until we reach unanimity on doctrine.   Go back and read your own post.

You are the one who suggested the term "bribes" Father.  It is more of your bottom feeding.

And yes...I think that the Vatican needs to pull way back and allow Orthodoxy to go on her own for a while and clean up her own house.  The other Father Ambrose used to tell me that the lunatic fringe did battle on the Internet.  I thought he was wrong then, and I still think he is wrong.  I hoped for a while to be able to believe him, but I have changed my mind.

I think that the conciliatory Orthodox on places like the Byzantine Forum are the lunatic fringe now.

You may take a great deal of credit for that.

Mary

Read Post 35.

I spoke of no communion until doctrinal unanimity.

You immediately replied saying the Catholics should stop giving money.

The connection could not possibly be more clear.  Who's the bottom feeder if not Mary Lanser?

The connection is the one you imputed.  You are still the bottom feeder.

False attribution to my words.  Putting things there that were not there explicitly nor were they intended.

Unfortunate of me not to have second guessed you.

I still think of you as a monk so I fall into that damnable trust-trap every time.

Mary
Just because Irish Hermit torpedoed you with a childish ad hominem doesn't give you leave to fire it right back at him.  For insulting Irish Hermit in the same way that he insulted you, you are receiving the same warning he received.  If you think my action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to Veniamin, Fr. George, or Fr. Chris.

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« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2010, 11:51:27 AM »

[
I think that the conciliatory Orthodox on places like the Byzantine Forum are the lunatic fringe now.

You may take a great deal of credit for that.

Mary

Thanks you for that reference, Mary.  Smiley

On one of the Orthodox traditionalist lists I am constantly accused of betraying Orthodoxy on the Byzantine forum.   People attack me and tell me I should go and join the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2010, 11:53:29 AM »



The way you write above it is as if the financial assistance from the West in the early days of freedom was almost a bride to achieve intercommunion.   Embarrassed

I didn't say it boss...you did.  Which is why I think that ALL monies sent to build Orthodox Churches and Seminaries should stop!...and should never have been sent in the first place because it does get kicked back in our teeth just as you do here,  but I wasn't around calling the shots then.... Grin

You were the one who replied No More Money in response to my post on the impossibility of communion until we reach unanimity on doctrine.   Go back and read your own post.

You are the one who suggested the term "bribes" Father.  It is more of your bottom feeding.

And yes...I think that the Vatican needs to pull way back and allow Orthodoxy to go on her own for a while and clean up her own house.  The other Father Ambrose used to tell me that the lunatic fringe did battle on the Internet.  I thought he was wrong then, and I still think he is wrong.  I hoped for a while to be able to believe him, but I have changed my mind.

I think that the conciliatory Orthodox on places like the Byzantine Forum are the lunatic fringe now.

You may take a great deal of credit for that.

Mary

Read Post 35.

I spoke of no communion until doctrinal unanimity.

You immediately replied saying the Catholics should stop giving money.

The connection could not possibly be more clear.  Who's the bottom feeder if not Mary Lanser?

The connection is the one you imputed.  You are still the bottom feeder.

False attribution to my words.  Putting things there that were not there explicitly nor were they intended.

Unfortunate of me not to have second guessed you.

I still think of you as a monk so I fall into that damnable trust-trap every time.

Mary

Your ad hominems are becoming less subtle and more evil.  God forgive you.
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« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2010, 11:58:46 AM »


Here is post 35.

What I wrote and how you responded.  I spoke of no intercommunion without unity in doctrine. You responded with "The money has to stop."


It is all empty words without communion.  Very sad to me. 

Mary,  we must be realistic.  We must start where we are at.  I imagine you are not aware that the Orthodox have stated over and over that communion will not be used and cannot be used as a tool towards unity. Instead it will be the crowning point and glory when unanimity is reached on doctrinal issues.

There is a good booklet on this by Bishop Kallistos Ware "Communion and Intercommunion."

I think the Vatican needs to stop giving money to Orthodox countries and pull back from this so-called evangelization project and allow the Orthodox Churches to do what they can to get their own houses in order.   The money shoveled at Orthodoxy can only be tossed back in our faces...after it is spent of course...and called bribes or somebody's due, and the so-called evangelization will consist of the kind of interaction that I am encountering on this Forum at the ground level.

I don't know what the Catholic bishops and cardinals are thinking...but what is happening, from my perspective on the ground, is an egregious waste of time and resources.

Mary

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« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2010, 11:59:32 AM »

[
I think that the conciliatory Orthodox on places like the Byzantine Forum are the lunatic fringe now.

You may take a great deal of credit for that.

Mary

Thanks you for that reference, Mary.  Smiley

On one of the Orthodox traditionalist lists I am constantly accused of betraying Orthodoxy on the Byzantine forum.   People attack me and tell me I should go and join the Roman Catholic Church.

Don't break the door down on the way in.... Cool
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« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2010, 12:02:36 PM »

[
I think that the conciliatory Orthodox on places like the Byzantine Forum are the lunatic fringe now.

You may take a great deal of credit for that.

Mary

Thanks you for that reference, Mary.  Smiley

On one of the Orthodox traditionalist lists I am constantly accused of betraying Orthodoxy on the Byzantine forum.   People attack me and tell me I should go and join the Roman Catholic Church.
Well you should, but you don't necessarily need to be Roman.   Grin
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« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2010, 12:04:02 PM »

Yes, Father and I still mean what I said the way I meant it then and NOT with the meaning that you have falsely attributed to it since...The money that has been sent never was a bribe, was never intended as a bribe.

My thought was that we might as well give money to build Islamic Mosques or Jewish Temples.  We would probably be treated with more respect.  And that is where the thought rested.

I object to having our gifts spit upon and that is ALL I object to.

And now you call me a liar by implication in addition to reading falsely into my message.

And you ask God to forgive ME?Huh

Rather we look to our own failings.

Mary


Here is post 35.

What I wrote and how you responded.  I spoke of no intercommunion without unity in doctrine. You responded with "The money has to stop."


It is all empty words without communion.  Very sad to me. 

Mary,  we must be realistic.  We must start where we are at.  I imagine you are not aware that the Orthodox have stated over and over that communion will not be used and cannot be used as a tool towards unity. Instead it will be the crowning point and glory when unanimity is reached on doctrinal issues.

There is a good booklet on this by Bishop Kallistos Ware "Communion and Intercommunion."

I think the Vatican needs to stop giving money to Orthodox countries and pull back from this so-called evangelization project and allow the Orthodox Churches to do what they can to get their own houses in order.   The money shoveled at Orthodoxy can only be tossed back in our faces...after it is spent of course...and called bribes or somebody's due, and the so-called evangelization will consist of the kind of interaction that I am encountering on this Forum at the ground level.

I don't know what the Catholic bishops and cardinals are thinking...but what is happening, from my perspective on the ground, is an egregious waste of time and resources.

Mary

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« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2010, 12:09:12 PM »

Resolution for today:  Do not respond to any more ad hominems and insults from Ruthenian Catholics.
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2010, 12:13:11 PM »

Resolution for today:  Do not respond to any more ad hominems and insults from Ruthenian Catholics.




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« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2010, 12:14:55 PM »

Resolution for today:  Do not respond to any more ad hominems and insults from Ruthenian Catholics.
Plank Plank Plank
 For contributing to the quick degradation of this thread with more of your general pugnacity, which is particularly evident in how you've continued your attack on Mickey despite being on Warned status, you are now on Post Moderation.  For the next 40 days, every one of your posts will need to be screened by a moderator before it will appear on the forum.  If you think my action wrong, feel free to appeal it via PM to Veniamin, Fr. George, or Fr. Chris.

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« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2010, 12:21:06 PM »

Plank Plank Plank


 For contributing to the quick degradation of this thread by essentially calling Papist a troll, you are receiving this formal warning to last for the next month.  If you choose to continue your attack on Papist with such puerile insults, you will join him on Post Moderation.  Feel free to appeal this warning to Veniamin, Fr. George, or Fr. Chris if you think my action wrong.

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« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2010, 12:21:56 PM »

You pick your nose?
 Wink
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You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
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« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2010, 12:25:09 PM »

ALL OF YOU KNOCK IT OFF.

YOU ALL SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES.

This thread is locked because you all have no concept of how to engage in a civil discussion with one another.

SHAME.  SHAME.  SHAME.


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