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The young fogey
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« on: November 22, 2002, 06:02:07 PM »

VATICAN DOSSIER
--------------------------------------

POPE URGES EASTERN-RITE CHURCHES NOT TO BE IMPRISONED IN PAST
Evangelization Is Key to Surmount Internal Difficulties, He Says
VATICAN CITY, NOV. 21, 2002 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II exhorted leaders of Eastern-rite Catholic Churches not to be imprisoned in the past, but to overcome their difficulties by being open to their missionary vocation.

When he met today with the 65 representatives who were participating in the plenary assembly of the Vatican Congregation for Eastern Churches, the Pope reiterated the proposal for the "pastoral renewal" of these Churches, whose origin dates back to the first Christian communities.

"In fact, each particular ecclesial community must not limit itself to the study of its internal problems," he said. "Rather, it must open itself to the great horizons of the modern apostolate destined for the men of our time, in a special way toward young people, the poor and the 'fallen away.'"

The Catholic Church is made up of particular Churches of the Latin rite (to hich the greatest number of Catholics belong), as well as of Churches of Eastern rites, among which there are five traditions: Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan.

[Serge notes: the rites belonging to the Coptic, Syrian, Armenian Apostolic, Assyrian and Orthodox Churches?]

The Holy Father said that among these communities, whose sees are in the Middle East, Eastern Europe and Asia, there are often many difficulties: "numerical scarcity, lack of means, isolation, minority condition."

These circumstances "often impede serene and fruitful pastoral, educational, helpful and charitable action," the Pope noted. Moreover, these communities experience "an incessant migratory flow toward the West of the most promising components" of these Churches, he added.

Given this difficult situation, John Paul II exhorted Eastern Catholics not to be imprisoned by "formulas of the past," but to "open themselves to a healthy updating" -- "aggiornamento," he said in Italian, the word used by John XXIII to express the renewal that the Second Vatican Council would promote.

[Serge: OH, SH*T.]

The key to this updating, John Paul II concluded, quoting the "Good Pope," is in the "wise harmony between the new and the old."

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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2002, 07:20:37 PM »

Things like this tend to remove any doutb I have about leaving the Roman Church.  Why the need for updating - isn't the faith of the Apostles enough?
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2002, 09:14:58 PM »

Quote
Given this difficult situation, John Paul II exhorted Eastern Catholics not to be imprisoned by "formulas of the past," but to "open themselves to a healthy updating" -- "aggiornamento," he said in Italian, the word used by John XXIII to express the renewal that the Second Vatican Council would promote.

[Serge: OH, SH*T.]

My sentiments exactly.

More evidence that JP II is a convinced modernist, who despite all evidence really does believe his church is witnessing a "new springtime".  I'm only sad to see that he's pushing to "wreckovate" what remains of the apostolic rites of the RCC.

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Robert
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2002, 10:29:50 PM »

Anyone know where I can find the actual text in Italian?

Italian to English translations are always butchered, as italian has several rather eloquent tenses that English cannot convey in the slightest.

I'd be curious to see if any contorting of text did occur.


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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2002, 10:17:04 AM »

[More evidence that JP II is a convinced modernist, who despite all evidence really does believe his church is witnessing a "new springtime". ]

Also more evidence that the Pope speaks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time.  How can they return to the traditions and practices of their Orthodox Catholic ancestors and 'not be imprisioned by the formulas of the past' at the same time?

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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2002, 01:19:02 PM »

"How can they return to the traditions and practices of their Orthodox Catholic ancestors and 'not be imprisioned by the formulas of the past' at the same time?"

Bob, you should know the answer better than most, as your own OCA has been the most successful in doing just this.

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Economan
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2002, 01:52:03 PM »

This isn't specifically mentioned here, but I've always wanted to say it. Why are Eastern Catholics always exhorted to stay true to their Orthodox traditions (at least officially) and get rid of their Latinizations, while Latin Catholics who speak out against the "spirit" of V2 and like the  traditional liturgy are looked down upon?

I know the answer, but it is a double standard.

Economan

Update: Now that I actually read what Serge posted, it looks like Byz Catholics are getting screwed as well.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2002, 01:53:24 PM by Economan » Logged
The young fogey
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2002, 01:57:33 PM »

Economan, I've been asking that question for years. The answer may be a kind of condescending bait-and-switch ecumenism directed by Catholics towards the Orthodox.

You're right, it's a big double standard.
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2002, 02:03:52 PM »

[Bob, you should know the answer better than most, as your own OCA has been the most successful in doing just this.]

All depends on how one defines  'not be imprisioned by the formulas of the past'  Lance.

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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2002, 03:09:41 PM »

All depends on how one defines  'not be imprisioned by the formulas of the past'  Lance.

Then let us not read definitions into the phrase, but learn what the Pope actually meant when he said what he said.
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2002, 03:22:46 PM »

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Then let us not read definitions into the phrase, but learn what the Pope actually meant when he said what he said.  

Those that are Latin-rite Roman Catholic (or have been, or closely follow the church) know exactly what is meant whenever updating or the "A-word" or spirit of Vatican II is invoked.  Still this just seems to be another example of the Pope attempting to please everybody (but traditional RCs of course)...and a friend to all is a friend to none.
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2002, 03:50:40 PM »

"In fact, each particular ecclesial community must not limit itself to the study of its internal problems," he said. "Rather, it must open itself to the great horizons of the modern apostolate destined for the men of our time, in a special way toward young people, the poor and the 'fallen away.'"

If one reads what the Pope is asking, he is not talking about the liturgy or traditions, or theology but our apostolate.  Something which Eastern Catholic Churches on the whole have not been very good at implementing.  We have been content to let the Latin Church undertake the various apostolates like foreign missions, social ministry, youth ministry, etc. alwatys excusing ourselves because we do not have the resources, we're to small, and on and on.  the Pope is calling us on the carpet and telling us to get of our buts and do our share.  This is the updating the Pope is talking about and is clear from the article.  But it seems there are those who want to read their own bias into the article to agree with their preconcieved notions.

It is not Vatican II's or the Pope's fault people use Vatican II as an excuse for their disobediance.  The statements were clear, as were the plans for liturgical renewal for the Latin Rite.  That others did what they wanted and not what the VII or the Pope's called for is a trajedy but was not the object of the Aggiornamento.

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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2002, 05:37:50 PM »

Lance,

Quote
This is the updating the Pope is talking about and is clear from the article.  But it seems there are those who want to read their own bias into the article to agree with their preconcieved notions.

None of what you've just said is at all "clear"; it sounds rather like naivity and wishful thinking.

Quote
It is not Vatican II's or the Pope's fault people use Vatican II as an excuse for their disobediance.  The statements were clear, as were the plans for liturgical renewal for the Latin Rite.  That others did what they wanted and not what the VII or the Pope's called for is a trajedy but was not the object of the Aggiornamento.

I remember hearing this constantly from the Novus-Ordo establishment back in my RC days as a way of excusing the mockery of apostolic Christianity that Roman Catholicism has become in the experience of the average Roman Catholic layman; the "victim/impotent Pope" excuse.

The fact is, there would be no Novus Ordo, had Paul VI not signed Missale Romanum.  Even if one wants to fancifully argue that the wreckovators went further than such documents "allowed" (which is very debatable since everything since Vatican II has been in "Anglcan-speak", meaning it can be read whatever way one wants to read it), it has all occured under Paul VI and John Paul II's noses.  The ultimate proof that this is something institutional and not simply "a few crannks" (oh yeah, a few cranks who happen to be the entire RC establishment for all intents and purposes), can be seen if one watches JP II's own "liturgies" when he's globe trotting.  Almost all of the liberalizations/perversions of the RCC's liturgical life since Vatican II, save for the most obscene and bizarre, will be found in his public acts of liturgizing.

I'm not convinced so much that JP II is dishonest (though God knows, it's possible) as possessed of a modernistic mind, which cannot clearly perceive (or at least take seriously) that radically contradictory principles cannot coexist comfortably with one another (thus the new "anglican-esque" Vatican vision of a few indult Tridentines on one side, a few almost Protestant "charismatics" on the other, mushy middle neo-conservatives for a little spice, etc., will not work nor ever cease offending the sensibilities of honest/clear-thinking people.)

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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2002, 08:48:37 PM »


 I am a liturgical Conservative myself <shock, horror!>  but surely the Eastern Church is not a conservative haven or a museum piece that never changes  but the Living Body of Christ???

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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2002, 01:05:33 AM »

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I am a liturgical Conservative myself <shock, horror!>  but surely the Eastern Church is not a conservative haven or a museum piece that never changes  but the Living Body of Christ???

And we are to take this how, exactly?

Seraphim - who prefers museums to circuses, for what it's worth
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2002, 01:02:13 PM »

Preferring museums to circuses is the apostolic way, East and West, which is why all the rites so resemble each other.

Is the Orthodox tradition a conservative haven? Of course! It isn't static but changes organically at a glacial pace.

One hopes that all the Pope means is the Eastern Catholics should look beyond their ethnic borders and evangelize/missionize, including getting involved in prolife more, but we all know what 'aggiornamento' is code for.

If it means what we all think it does in this latest announcement, then ultimately both the Latin refugees and the Orthodox-minded who predominate online will be screwed.

BTW, on another, Roman Catholic board somebody finally explained to me the contradictory action of the Byzantine Catholics when, right after Vatican II told them to be Eastern again, they gutted their fasting practices. Apparently it was a practical move, the bishops thought, to try to keep their churches from losing more people to the Latins, who'd just gutted their fasting.
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