Author Topic: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?  (Read 44489 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #135 on: May 20, 2010, 12:35:54 PM »

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #136 on: May 20, 2010, 12:52:56 PM »

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.

Mary

Offline christianos

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2010, 01:34:16 PM »
Quote
Dear Christianos,

It would be interesting to see Schmemann's statement since this, as far as I know, has always been presented by the Orthodox as an aberrant Roman Catholic understanding of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity.

Here you are:


the quality is not good but I took the picture by my camera.

Quote
Този вечен дар на Отца за Цина, е самият Божи Дух- Дух на любов, на съвършенство, на красота, на цялата неизчерпаена дълвина на Божията същност.

I don't know do I have to translate all of it, but the most iportant sentense means in english "more and less" like that:
"This eternal gift of Father to the Sin is Holy Spirit by himself, Spirit of Love, of Perfection of Beauty, of endless depth of God's being (essence)."

P.S. if someone can correct this translation I'd be grateful :)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 01:35:30 PM by christianos »
Господи Ісусе Христе, Сину Божий, помилуй мене грішного.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #138 on: May 20, 2010, 01:38:05 PM »

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.
and why it is heresy.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 01:38:26 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #139 on: May 20, 2010, 01:42:39 PM »

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.
and why it is heresy.

Apparently not because Orthodoxy teaches the same thing without using filioque to do so.

M.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #140 on: May 20, 2010, 04:33:10 PM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #141 on: May 20, 2010, 04:47:26 PM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2010, 05:07:44 PM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 05:24:36 PM by tuesdayschild »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #143 on: May 20, 2010, 05:29:19 PM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time. 

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.

M.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2010, 11:54:37 PM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time.  

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.


Explain the difference between spiration and origination.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 11:55:06 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #145 on: May 21, 2010, 12:05:30 AM »

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time.  

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.


Saint Gregory the Theologian who died about 388 AD is an erudite representative of the Church Fathers on the subject of the origins of the three Persons of the Trinity.  He has no hint at all of any eternal procession of the Spirit "by the Father 'through the Son' as from one principle."

Saint Gregory's statement about the difference in manifestation refers to the difference between begetting and proceeding as he makes clear in Oration 32:8:The Fifth Theological Oration, "On the Holy Spirit":
 
You hear that there is generation? Do not waste your time in seeking after the how. You hear that the Spirit proceeds from the Father? Do not busy yourself about the how" [Orat XX, 2]  "You ask what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, then I will explain to you the physiology of the Son's generation and the Spirit's procession and both of us shall be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God" [Orat XXXI, 8]
 
The Fifth Theological Oration.On the Holy
Spirit by St Gregory Nazianzen


In my opinion the Western world has been long stricken with the madness against which Saint Gregory cautions.

Another Church Father shared by us both. Saint John of Damascus:

'The mode of generation and the mode of procession are incomprehensible. We have learned that there is a difference between generation and procession, but the nature of the difference we in no wise understand.'

and also from Saint John of Damascus:

"We do not speak of the Spirit as from the Son."


The Orthodox know only within the limits of Scripture and Tradition. Both of these affirm that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only. This is what we know with crystal clear clarity.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 12:07:06 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #146 on: May 21, 2010, 12:21:03 AM »

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.
and why it is heresy.

Apparently not because Orthodoxy teaches the same thing without using filioque to do so.

M.
No, we do not, no matter how much you, the Vatican, Bishop Kallistos or the Phanar may dream otherwise.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 12:21:56 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #147 on: May 21, 2010, 12:25:42 AM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.
It most certainly is not.  But it most certainly is the Vatican's teaching.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #148 on: May 21, 2010, 05:42:28 AM »
Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

So... what's the problem with that? :)

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #149 on: May 21, 2010, 08:25:07 AM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time.  

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.


Explain the difference between spiration and origination.

Explain one in essence.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 08:28:47 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #150 on: May 21, 2010, 10:11:51 AM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time.  

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.


Explain the difference between spiration and origination.

Explain one in essence.

"Consubstantial" meaning "of one substance."

Your turn.

Offline Papist

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #151 on: May 21, 2010, 06:46:07 PM »
Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

So... what's the problem with that? :)
The problem with that is that you cannot defend your position as being the true Church by only appealing to the Fathers who were highly hellenized. You end up in a circular argument.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #152 on: May 21, 2010, 07:35:37 PM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #153 on: May 21, 2010, 07:44:25 PM »
Thomas Ross's discussion of the filioque has never made sense to me.  He clearly does not grasp Catholic teaching and so it is impossible to offer a genuine commentary on his essay based upon Catholic teaching concerning the filioque. 

How about commentary on his point (about 3/4 down the page) viz-a-viz the historical language of eternal double-procession in RC dogmatic statements?

At any rate Dr. Gilbert does apparently grasp Catholic teaching and the history of the teaching and he definitely is Orthodox, so that is a good thing to witness in this world of common misunderstandings.

I don't know how seriously I can take the conclusions of a man who makes such blatantly false statements as, "It was on account of people like him, who preferred the Turban to the Tiara, that the Greek nation was shortly afterwards submerged in darkness and slavery for four hundred years."  When examining the man's writings, an unsupportable and patently untrue statement like that is akin to finding self-inflicted gangrene in a medical examination: there is a problem, and it is going to effect everything around it.

Thomas Ross deals in literal black and white and does not account for meaning, much the same way Father Ambrose insists on it, when speaking of original sin. 

So you see as long as you are not willing to accept Catholics when they explain meaning then you control the terms of the discussion and there's no dialogue.  You simply rear up and inform us of what we have taught for 2000 years...or not.  It's a nice position to be in.  Ask any of the British colonies who wrote their early histories and how the indigenes fared in the telling....

Also Dr. Gilbert is an historian and I expect he'd not make those kinds of statements had he not had some experience with texts to have allowed him to say what he said.  He is certainly not anti-Orthodox.   But he does not back off an historical truth if he finds one simply because it is inconvenient.

I think he makes a good point. If the Latins have really just meant all along that the Holy Spirit is sent from the Father and the Son, then why have they taught that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son? Non-ontological sending or missioning would appear to not be a matter of eternity, and only the ontological procession could be.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #154 on: May 21, 2010, 07:46:37 PM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #155 on: May 21, 2010, 07:49:31 PM »
I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

I must take exception to this. I don't think there is any disrespect in referring to the Blessed Mother as "Mary." It is a holy name, made sacred by the bearer of it.


Yes...well....I've also met too many Roman Catholics named "Jesus"...which I also find disrespectful.



What about Josh? Jesus is simply one particular rendering of a Greek rendering of the original. Joshua is an English rendering of Yehoshua.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #156 on: May 21, 2010, 07:55:50 PM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that there was a Second Person of the Trinity prior to Jesus's birth?

Mary

Of course. Even the Arians would have said that there was a second person of the Triad before Jesus' birth.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #157 on: May 21, 2010, 07:57:02 PM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that there was a Second Person of the Trinity prior to Jesus's birth?

Mary

Prior to the Incarnation there was only a Binity, but we don't talk about it very much.   :laugh:

Erm....  ???

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #158 on: May 21, 2010, 07:57:48 PM »
Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?

Mary

Of course. The Logos is eternally begotten of the Father.

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #159 on: May 21, 2010, 07:57:55 PM »
Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

So... what's the problem with that? :)
The problem with that is that you cannot defend your position as being the true Church by only appealing to the Fathers who were highly hellenized. You end up in a circular argument.

All arguments are circular arguments, if you follow them far enough... ;) But as for selectively quoting Fathers, in Orthodoxy they use a nebulous "mind of the Fathers" concept. It's a terribly vague and arbitrary method, but then what is the alternative? A terribly tyrannical and arbitrary Papal system? A terribly unworkable and unusable formula of St. Vincent of Lerins? I don't like the way the Orthodox do it, but then the problem reminds me of that phrase by Winston Churchill... it's the worst way of doing it, except for all the others.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #160 on: May 21, 2010, 07:58:55 PM »
it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

They are one and the same. The only difference is that Jesus Christ was not human beforehand.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #161 on: May 21, 2010, 08:03:06 PM »
If I can add something about Filioque :)

It would be a heresy If in latin Creed was written "ab Patre et ab Filio procedit". However, we know that there is different expression "Ab Patre Fiolioque procedit".  Latin "quo" means here the same like english "and" but introduces the semantic asymmetry, which nor English, neither Greek cannot express, as an example of this distinction I'll give well-known Latin quotation "Senatus populusque Romanus" (The Senate and the People of Rome).

I tried to find one sentence written by Aleksandar Shmeman in his book "Литургия и живот" but I need more time.
He wrote that the Holy Spirit is the personal relationship of love of the Father and the Son. As soon as I find this passage immediately I will write it here.
Such statement as far I know is close to St. Augustine was used even by St. Gregory Palamas.

I don't know where this "ab Patre" is coming from. The Latin says "ex Patre". Anyway, what is your imagined difference between "ex Filio" and "filioque"?

Also, I would be interested to see what in the writings of Gregory Palamas you are referring to?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #162 on: May 21, 2010, 08:05:42 PM »

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary

The Essence is principally the Unbegotten's. He eternally begat the hypostasis of the Logos as another instance of His own essence. So it would not be appropriate to say that the essence was eternally begotten, but it would be appropriate to say that the hypostasis of the Logos was eternally begotten in the essence of the Father.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #163 on: May 21, 2010, 08:06:23 PM »

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.

Mary

How so?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #164 on: May 21, 2010, 08:08:30 PM »
Quote
Dear Christianos,

It would be interesting to see Schmemann's statement since this, as far as I know, has always been presented by the Orthodox as an aberrant Roman Catholic understanding of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity.

Here you are:


the quality is not good but I took the picture by my camera.

Quote
Този вечен дар на Отца за Цина, е самият Божи Дух- Дух на любов, на съвършенство, на красота, на цялата неизчерпаена дълвина на Божията същност.

I don't know do I have to translate all of it, but the most iportant sentense means in english "more and less" like that:
"This eternal gift of Father to the Sin is Holy Spirit by himself, Spirit of Love, of Perfection of Beauty, of endless depth of God's being (essence)."

P.S. if someone can correct this translation I'd be grateful :)


Which expresses John Damascene's formula that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son. It doesn't really seem to support the idea that the Holy Spirit in His origin is the love between the Father and the Son. Rather it indicates that the Holy Spirit is ontologically the love of the Father which He gives to the Son as an eternal gift that He comes to possess as His own.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #165 on: May 21, 2010, 08:09:04 PM »

Prior to the Annunciation, do the Orthodox call the Second Person of the Trinity....'Begotten'?


What an odd question!  Are you having a hypoglycemic moment?   :laugh:

"...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages..."

Although you do have to tease that apart..... it was not the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man, who was begottoen before all ages.  It was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?

Mary
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.
and why it is heresy.

Apparently not because Orthodoxy teaches the same thing without using filioque to do so.

M.

What is the teaching that you are referring to?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #166 on: May 21, 2010, 08:10:53 PM »
Does Orthodoxy teach that the Second Person of the Trinity was begotten of the Father before all ages in his Hypostasis or in His Essence?
It would have to be in His Hypostasis, as He has no seperate Essence.

Then you inherently understand the Catholic teaching of filioque.


Please elaborate.  How is it that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (a third divine hypostatis from two divine hypostases) rather than from "one God, the Father almighty" (one divine essence), Who also begets the Son?

I have no idea because what you have displayed here has nothing to do with any Catholic teaching.

You might check on some other Christian forum, but it is certainly not Catholic.

Mary

Sometimes I don't explain things as well as I would like to.  Okay, I'll simplify.  How does the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, rather than Father alone?

From the Son the Spirit is spirated eternally as from the essence, and then through the hypostasis in time. 

The Spirit originates only from the Father who is the singular source.

M.

I've never been able to understand what this "as from" business means. Does the Holy Spirit spirate from the essence or not?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #167 on: May 21, 2010, 08:14:35 PM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary

If it has an inherent connotation of originating procession, that is perfectly fine. If it is open to either, then the Latins should have researched the Creed sufficiently to recognize that if they are to use procedere it must be used to be the same in meaning. If they did not, then they didn't really do their job in sufficiently analyzing statements of faith before accepting them and didn't really receive the Creed.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #168 on: May 21, 2010, 09:55:34 PM »
removed
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 09:56:10 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #169 on: May 21, 2010, 10:58:19 PM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #170 on: May 21, 2010, 11:49:03 PM »
Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.

So... what's the problem with that? :)
The problem with that is that you cannot defend your position as being the true Church by only appealing to the Fathers who were highly hellenized. You end up in a circular argument.

All arguments are circular arguments, if you follow them far enough... ;) But as for selectively quoting Fathers, in Orthodoxy they use a nebulous "mind of the Fathers" concept. It's a terribly vague and arbitrary method, but then what is the alternative? A terribly tyrannical and arbitrary Papal system? A terribly unworkable and unusable formula of St. Vincent of Lerins? I don't like the way the Orthodox do it, but then the problem reminds me of that phrase by Winston Churchill... it's the worst way of doing it, except for all the others.

I rather like our consensus patrum. :) And St. Vincent of Lérins came up with a pretty good formula, IMHO. ;)

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #171 on: May 22, 2010, 01:30:14 AM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
You're assuming that East and West were actually able to communicate with each other during the time the filioque rose to prominence?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 01:30:26 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #172 on: May 22, 2010, 03:36:56 AM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.
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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #173 on: May 22, 2010, 03:46:19 AM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Catholics say that the two Ecumenical Councils which constructed the Creed were convened by the Pope, run by the legates of the Pope, and finally ratified by the Pope.   How on earth would that make the Pope a Protestant?!   ???

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #174 on: May 22, 2010, 08:42:41 AM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Yes.  And many do not know the documentary history and still think that Latins could not talk to Greeks or that Augustine did not know the Cappadocian fathers through letters and could not have read their works, etc.  So it is best to leave certain assertions alone for charity's sake.

M.

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #175 on: May 22, 2010, 10:52:16 AM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either.
This is an interesting point.

When you say that "it did not condemn the Latin approach", to which "it" are you referring? A council? A document?

Are you saying that a council or document addressed the filioque issue, decided not to include the filioque, but did not condemn the filioque?
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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #176 on: May 22, 2010, 11:04:22 AM »
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #177 on: May 22, 2010, 11:08:31 AM »
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

LOL...yea...old lecture notes...

Never mind.  If I find something in my travels I'll post it.  If not just write it off as the ravings of a nutcase Catholic  :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #178 on: May 22, 2010, 11:08:49 AM »
Well the Latin Church used a different word in the Creed in Latin and that didn't seem to bother for centuries, and I expect people knew it was different then as they do now.

I would actually say that the proper meaning of a creed is what the authors of it meant by the language they used to write it, not what meaning later readers of it can interpret into it. And such interpretation is illegitimate and breaks doctrinal continuity if it is not the same meaning as the authors meant by it. Thus, using procedere to mean anything other than ἐκπόρευσις is to introduce a deviant creed.

Should have made note of that immediately, rather than a thousand years later.  It was VERY clear from the beginning that the Latin did not mean at all precisely the same thing as the Greek.  The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.  So if that had been a problem, it should have been noted then, not now.

Mary
The Creed wasn't written in Latin. I know, that comes as a shock to you.
Which is why the original version only included the Eastern approach to theology. But it did not condemn the Latin approach either. I always find it funny that EOs reject the filioque just because the Greek form of the creed does not contain it. How very protestant.

Catholics say that the two Ecumenical Councils which constructed the Creed were convened by the Pope, run by the legates of the Pope, and finally ratified by the Pope.   How on earth would that make the Pope a Protestant?!   ???
Just to add: the Greek form is the original form, the standard against which all Creeds are measured.  Not sure how that is protestant.

Looking at the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon, lots of things are stuck into the Latin translation which would reappear when the Vatican tried making the Councils as statements of Ultramontanism.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?
« Reply #179 on: May 22, 2010, 11:10:07 AM »
The Latin word was chosen precisely because it had the dual meaning of originating and a non-originating procession.

That is an interesting assertion.  Proof?

LOL...yea...old lecture notes...

Never mind.  If I find something in my travels I'll post it.  If not just write it off as the ravings of a nutcase Catholic  :)

Proof? We don't need no stinkin' proof....we have the pope.
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