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Author Topic: Do Orthodox and Catholics Worship the Same Trinity?  (Read 19819 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 10, 2010, 08:45:17 PM »

I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


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A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2010, 08:50:11 PM »

I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....
Christ is Risen!!!

Stashko as someone who comes from the Catholic church I would have to say we worship the same Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2010, 08:52:39 PM »

I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....
Christ is Risen!!!

Stashko as someone who comes from the Catholic church I would have to say we worship the same Holy Trinity.

Truly He is Risen!

As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported.
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 08:53:56 PM »

I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....

Hmmm. That's partially true and partially not. They do believe in the same personalities that the world has come to know through historic Christianity. It is their understanding of the theological natures of those personalities that is warped and different because of the dual origination of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 08:55:47 PM »

I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....
Christ is Risen!!!

Stashko as someone who comes from the Catholic church I would have to say we worship the same Holy Trinity.

Truly He is Risen!

As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported.

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 10:32:40 PM »

Truly He is Risen!

As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported.

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?

What is your objection to my statement?  Make a statement that can be responded to, rather than a vague question that can be answered with the quote you seem to object to.
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 10:34:39 PM »

Truly He is Risen!

As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported.

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?

What is your objection to my statement?  Make a statement that can be responded to, rather than a vague question that can be answered with the quote you seem to object to.

Why can't you just answer the question?
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 10:56:18 PM »

  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.
Thank you Father George. It would be nice if the two Churches could somehow cooperate on issues of mutual agreement, (in spite of the very serious differences which still have to be ironed out).
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 07:17:03 AM »

What is your objection to my statement?  Make a statement that can be responded to, rather than a vague question that can be answered with the quote you seem to object to.
Why can't you just answer the question?

You obviously did not get my point, so I'll re-make it via example:

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?

From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity. 

In short - make your point, stop dancing around your real question.  No intelligent conversation is had when one asks a question that can easily be answered with a previously made statement that the question itself seemingly objects to!  Present your argument, so I can truly and in a meaningful way answer your question.
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 10:47:39 AM »

What is your objection to my statement?  Make a statement that can be responded to, rather than a vague question that can be answered with the quote you seem to object to.
Why can't you just answer the question?

You obviously did not get my point, so I'll re-make it via example:

What? You're saying that you think that the filioque clause is problematic for Trinitarian theology even if it is understood to only mean the non-ontological emission of the Holy Spirit that is both from the Father and the Son?

From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity. 

In short - make your point, stop dancing around your real question.  No intelligent conversation is had when one asks a question that can easily be answered with a previously made statement that the question itself seemingly objects to!  Present your argument, so I can truly and in a meaningful way answer your question.

Why would you think that the idea of the dual procession of the Holy Spirit is problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity aside from with respect to the origination of the Holy Spirit?
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2010, 10:59:37 AM »

Can't you just be happy and clap your hands as I suggested earlier?

I think we have a thread on church architecture where your pics would be a good addition.

Try to be tolerant

So what are we discussing? The name of this section is "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion.  Roll Eyes

I have brought a subject, Catholicism from a happy catholic, Though you seem to be outplaced when invited to see what I do see in The Church. you seem more ready to disqualify any subject that may honor Catholicism, and though I haven´t yet say anything against "orthodoxy", I haven't given you any motive for you to be upset and yet that is what it seems to bother you.

I am not upset or bothered - in fact, I really like your beautiful pictures, and I admire your love for your Church. Yet, it looks like you and I have different ideas about what "discussion" is...

What Would you like tu discuss

Well, there are hundreds of topics. For example: why Filioque (esp. how could it be adopted by a local council in Toledo without approval of the Eastern jurisdictions, and in the face of the already existing consensus that there should be no additions to the Creed). Or what exactly do the words "vicar of Christ" or "Pontificus Maximus" mean.
Approval of the Eastern jurisdictions? Who needs it?! LOL. The Easts spent so much time in heresy during the time of the Fathers that the approval of the East is not necessarily a badge of honor.

But that's a weak argument. Of course the Church needs approval of ALL her jurisdictions in order to go ahead with something as important as changing the Creed. The Church has a counciliar nature, just like the Trinity! As for heresies, well, you have a point that there were monumental heresies originiating in the East - but there were also hierarchs in the West who were happy to join them. Pope Honorius for one...
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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2010, 11:36:34 AM »

Why would you think that the idea of the dual procession of the Holy Spirit is problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity aside from with respect to the origination of the Holy Spirit?

I think the addition to the Creed of the filioque is problematic because it requires far too much explanation to encapsulate the point from the RC POV.  The addition of the filioque, in order to be understood in a potentially non-heretical manner, would require an entire paragraph of addition to the Creed, IMO. I actually think it is an insult to the fathers of the first two ecumenical councils, who spend considerable time hashing out the minutae of the language of the creed related to the faith that was held by all true Christians since Christ, to add a word which has admittedly and plainly dual and potentially conflicting interpretations and which is the source of such division in the Church.
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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2010, 12:10:07 PM »

Can't you just be happy and clap your hands as I suggested earlier?

I think we have a thread on church architecture where your pics would be a good addition.

Try to be tolerant

So what are we discussing? The name of this section is "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion.  Roll Eyes

I have brought a subject, Catholicism from a happy catholic, Though you seem to be outplaced when invited to see what I do see in The Church. you seem more ready to disqualify any subject that may honor Catholicism, and though I haven´t yet say anything against "orthodoxy", I haven't given you any motive for you to be upset and yet that is what it seems to bother you.

I am not upset or bothered - in fact, I really like your beautiful pictures, and I admire your love for your Church. Yet, it looks like you and I have different ideas about what "discussion" is...

What Would you like tu discuss

Well, there are hundreds of topics. For example: why Filioque (esp. how could it be adopted by a local council in Toledo without approval of the Eastern jurisdictions, and in the face of the already existing consensus that there should be no additions to the Creed). Or what exactly do the words "vicar of Christ" or "Pontificus Maximus" mean.
Approval of the Eastern jurisdictions? Who needs it?! LOL. The Easts spent so much time in heresy during the time of the Fathers that the approval of the East is not necessarily a badge of honor.

But that's a weak argument. Of course the Church needs approval of ALL her jurisdictions in order to go ahead with something as important as changing the Creed. The Church has a counciliar nature, just like the Trinity! As for heresies, well, you have a point that there were monumental heresies originiating in the East - but there were also hierarchs in the West who were happy to join them. Pope Honorius for one...
One, Holy, Catholid and Apostolic Church is conciliar, but the church that inserted the filioque only has concils as rubber stamps for its supreme pontiff.

Of course accusation that the East was full of heresy ignores that it was the most Christianized area until well after the schism.
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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2010, 06:37:07 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2010, 07:21:41 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 02:02:57 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Nope. Same God.
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 02:20:46 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Nope. Same God.
That’s what I think, That Orthodox pray to the same God as do Catholics. However, it appears from this that Orthodox do not agree with this. I know that as a Catholic I pray to the Supreme Being who made all things,
The question now is whether or not Orthodox pray to the same Mary, the Mother of God as do Catholics? As Catholics we pray to Holy Mary Mother of God. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 02:23:21 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Nope. Same God.
That’s what I think, That Orthodox pray to the same God as do Catholics. However, it appears from this that Orthodox do not agree with this. I know that as a Catholic I pray to the Supreme Being who made all things,
The question now is whether or not Orthodox pray to the same Mary, the Mother of God as do Catholics? As Catholics we pray to Holy Mary Mother of God. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

I don't think that all Orthodox think that we pray to different gods.
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2010, 02:30:38 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
Nope. Same God.
That’s what I think, That Orthodox pray to the same God as do Catholics. However, it appears from this that Orthodox do not agree with this. I know that as a Catholic I pray to the Supreme Being who made all things,
The question now is whether or not Orthodox pray to the same Mary, the Mother of God as do Catholics? As Catholics we pray to Holy Mary Mother of God. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

I don't think that all Orthodox think that we pray to different gods.
No, only stashko does (and maybe a few others like him).
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2010, 02:35:49 PM »

Why would you think that the idea of the dual procession of the Holy Spirit is problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity aside from with respect to the origination of the Holy Spirit?

I think the addition to the Creed of the filioque is problematic because it requires far too much explanation to encapsulate the point from the RC POV.  The addition of the filioque, in order to be understood in a potentially non-heretical manner, would require an entire paragraph of addition to the Creed, IMO. I actually think it is an insult to the fathers of the first two ecumenical councils, who spend considerable time hashing out the minutae of the language of the creed related to the faith that was held by all true Christians since Christ, to add a word which has admittedly and plainly dual and potentially conflicting interpretations and which is the source of such division in the Church.

It wouldn't be all that difficult to come to an understanding that the filioque is only an indication that the Holy Spirit is emitted and sent from both the Father and the Son, if that was what the Latins believed (which I don't think it is). How would it be problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity if that was the case?
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2010, 02:37:35 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...

Stashko, what you do you have to say about this post?:

I think I'd rather have a thread of RC's being joyful in their faith than yet another article in some newspaper/blog that uses the much-publicized issues within the various Churches to try and convince people that religion is ridiculous.  We may have our issues, and may believe that the other (RC to OC, and vice-versa) is not the Body of Christ, but at least we're both trying in one way or another to glorify the One God in Three Persons.


Fr.Bless
A orthodox poster on catholic answers said  there, that the catholics worship a different god trinity, Than the Orthodox ,,due to the change the made in the Nicene creed..I have to agree with that poster...We don't worship the same Holy Trinty as they....

Hmmm. That's partially true and partially not. They do believe in the same personalities that the world has come to know through historic Christianity. It is their understanding of the theological natures of those personalities that is warped and different because of the dual origination of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2010, 02:40:01 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?

We would say that we pray to God the Father who is the sole unoriginated source of being in the Godhead and constitutes its singular principle. You, on the other hand, have made the Godhead itself the source of being and have thus produced a rather distinct doctrine of the Trinity that could even call into question the nature of the Father Himself.
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2010, 02:45:12 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?

We would say that we pray to God the Father who is the sole unoriginated source of being in the Godhead and constitutes its singular principle. You, on the other hand, have made the Godhead itself the source of being and have thus produced a rather distinct doctrine of the Trinity that could even call into question the nature of the Father Himself.
asenine
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2010, 02:53:01 PM »

He changed God by Aesteticism.

Do you think that we Orthodox believe in a different God than you Catholics?
Same God.

No! No! No! not at all ,,Not the same..Your trinity is not our Holy Trinity..You Changes to another one ,Holy Orthodoxy doesn't recognize it...
That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?

We would say that we pray to God the Father who is the sole unoriginated source of being in the Godhead and constitutes its singular principle. You, on the other hand, have made the Godhead itself the source of being and have thus produced a rather distinct doctrine of the Trinity that could even call into question the nature of the Father Himself.
asenine
How is this asinine?  He's not saying you worship another Trinity.  He's merely acknowledging that, even though we may indeed worship the same Trinity, the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox understandings of the Trinity are sufficiently different to warrant criticism.  I happen to agree with him.
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2010, 02:56:31 PM »

I'm saying that you worship the same personalities but do not have a proper understanding of their nature.
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2010, 02:57:08 PM »

  For example the catholic jesus from there trinity ,pops up on occasion in talking apparitions ,like in the sacred heart, divine mercy,giving strange or other way's  of salvation ,Unkown to the Holy Fathers Faith Once delivered..So How Can it Be The same..... Grin
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2010, 02:58:29 PM »


That's interesting. As Catholics we pray to God, the Supreme Being  who made all things, Our Father  who art in heaven. Now you are telling me that in the Holy Orthodox Church you do not pray to the Supreme Being who made all things, you do not pray to Our Father who art in heaven, but to someone different?
And what about Mary, the Holy Theotokos and Mother of God.  As Catholics many of us pray to Mary, the Mother of God and the Holy Theotokos every day? Do you pray to a different person or do you pray to the same Holy Mary, Mother of God as Catholics?


I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

As for the Holy Trinity, isn't the correct understanding of the relation between all Three important?

For example, if you have a family of three individuals....the entire family "structure" depends on their relation to one another.  They could be both parents and a child, 3 siblings, a grandparent, parent and grandchild, cousins, etc.

Isn't the correct understanding of their relationship to one another a major factor in our relationship and understanding of them?

I explain the Holy Trinity in simple words to my little students.

God the Father is the candle.  Christ is the Light of the world, and thereby the flame.  God the Holy Spirit works invisibly and is felt not seen, therefore, He is the heat emitted by the candle. Yet, both flame and heat are an integral part of the candle.  The candle is the source of both.




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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2010, 02:59:46 PM »

asenine

No, just your spelling is.

Saying that the addition of the filioque or its absence from the creed amounts to confessing the same theology is asinine.
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2010, 03:06:27 PM »

The Catholic Mary is also Strange, Appearing in Apparitions pointing to herself giving odd messages.
Even the catholic Mary isn't the same as the Orthodox Blessed Theotokos...
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2010, 03:07:31 PM »

I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Whew! I thought I was the only one who was offended. I have also noticed that many RC's also refer to the Apostles as Peter, John, Paul, etc---instead of St Peter, St John, St Paul....... Huh
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2010, 03:10:14 PM »

I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Whew! I thought I was the only one who was offended. I have also noticed that many RC's also refer to the Apostles as Peter, John, Paul, etc---instead of St Peter, St John, St Paul....... Huh
Great! Roll Eyes  Now you have me waiting to hear strands of that song, "Puff the Magic Dragon". Tongue
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2010, 03:12:30 PM »

Quote
As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported

Father Bless!

I agree that the filioque muddles things alot but does that have to mean we worship diffrent Gods? from what I understand Rome understands the filioque as meaning that the Holy Sprit proceeds from the Father through the Son...which as far as I know is orthodox(am I right there?)
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2010, 03:32:17 PM »

I'm saying that you worship the same personalities but do not have a proper understanding of their nature.
Well, that's different from what I understood above.
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2010, 03:34:53 PM »

The Catholic Mary is also Strange, Appearing in Apparitions pointing to herself giving odd messages.
Even the catholic Mary isn't the same as the Orthodox Blessed Theotokos...

So you do not pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary? Holy Mary,  Mother of God. Blessed art thou amongst women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus?
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2010, 03:38:52 PM »


Father Bless!

I agree that the filioque muddles things alot but does that have to mean we worship diffrent Gods? from what I understand Rome understands the filioque as meaning that the Holy Sprit proceeds from the Father through the Son...which as far as I know is orthodox(am I right there?)

Not necessarily and even RC church history would suggest that the two formulae are the same.  At a local synod in the western church in the 11th century, per Filium, "through the Son" was vehemently rejected.  I'll have to get my copy of Runciman's Eastern Schism out to check the particulars.  But, logically, "though" and "from" are not one and the same thing.
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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2010, 03:39:13 PM »

Whew! I thought I was the only one who was offended. I have also noticed that many RC's also refer to the Apostles as Peter, John, Paul, etc---instead of St Peter, St John, St Paul....... Huh

Egalitarianism prevails.

I agree with the general sentiment, that we worship the same personalities, but that the relationship between them has been distorted in the Roman Catholic Church, and subsequently in the Magisterial Reformation.
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2010, 03:49:57 PM »

I just wanted to voice a slight objection to how the Roman Catholics who seem to hold the Mother of God in such high esteem....refer to her on such a familiar basis as simply "Mary".  I've heard this a number of times and it offends me.

Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a function where a Byzantine Catholic priest stood up for the closing prayer and then gave a few words.  His constant referral to "Maria" just irritated me.  Maria, who?  Fraulein Maria?

That actually makes sense to me. She is so important in comparison to the others that if one just says "Mary", it should be clear that one is referring to the birth-giver of the Logos.
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« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2010, 03:51:28 PM »

Quote
As I said, we try.  From our POV, the addition to the Creed, even if intended to have a different effect, is problematic viz-a-viz the relationship of members of the Trinity.  So his point can be supported

Father Bless!

I agree that the filioque muddles things alot but does that have to mean we worship diffrent Gods? from what I understand Rome understands the filioque as meaning that the Holy Sprit proceeds from the Father through the Son...which as far as I know is orthodox(am I right there?)

How is that consistent with "the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from one principle"?
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« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2010, 03:52:16 PM »

I'm saying that you worship the same personalities but do not have a proper understanding of their nature.
Well, that's different from what I understood above.

That's not what stashko appears to be saying but that is what I have been saying all along.
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« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2010, 03:54:14 PM »

But, logically, "though" and "from" are not one and the same thing.

With respect to ontological origin, I agree that "through" and "from" cannot be the same.
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« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2010, 03:54:21 PM »

Now you have me waiting to hear strands of that song, "Puff the Magic Dragon".

Those fabulous sixties!  Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2010, 05:38:19 PM »

I'm saying that you worship the same personalities but do not have a proper understanding of their nature.
Ok, that's fair. Perhaps I overreacted.
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« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2010, 05:40:07 PM »

asenine

No, just your spelling is.

Saying that the addition of the filioque or its absence from the creed amounts to confessing the same theology is asinine.
You mean the patristic teaching of the filioque? Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.
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« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2010, 05:47:07 PM »

asenine

No, just your spelling is.

Saying that the addition of the filioque or its absence from the creed amounts to confessing the same theology is asinine.
You mean the patristic teaching of the filioque?

That it is heresy, yes.

Quote
Oh, yeah, its not the Fathers for you guys, or even the Greek Fathers, but only those who explicite endorse the mondern ethnocentric EO view on any given matter.
Is that what St. Augustine said?
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« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2010, 05:49:50 PM »

Stashko's point, though, if dismissed, would lead to the logical conclusion that the Orthodox and the Muslims both worship God the Father, with one community having the fullest understanding of God than the other.
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