OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 23, 2014, 06:25:40 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church  (Read 1965 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,178


that is not the teaching of...


« on: May 17, 2010, 08:21:08 PM »

I see Orthodox people say that Orthodoxy was founded in 33AD. I've also seen that pop up in other places, such as those silly and inaccurate timelines of Church history. I don't understand this at all. I realise that such is the traditional belief in Orthodoxy, but is it accurate? Wouldn't a closer approximation be that Jesus was born around 4BC, and that the Church was therefore founded around 29 or 30AD?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,902


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 08:23:31 PM »

Why get hung up on three to four years?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,178


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 08:27:58 PM »

It makes us look like we are bound to whatever was taught in the past, and unable to cope with evidence that we were wrong. Was tradition given to man for his benefit, or was man given to tradition to be it's slave?
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,075


"My god is greater."


« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 08:36:38 PM »

It makes us look like we are bound to whatever was taught in the past, and unable to cope with evidence that we were wrong. Was tradition given to man for his benefit, or was man given to tradition to be it's slave?

It's more a question of, Why does this matter? Why are those 3-4 years so important that we need to revise the tradition? Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2010, 08:53:36 PM »

Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.
I certainly hope people do not take that attitude into other fields.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,520



« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 09:05:47 PM »

 Cheesy or maybe the calendar has been revised more often than we realize!

Setting dates (Creation, Second Coming, just about anything) doesn't seem to be a strong point in Orthodoxy. Some truths are more important than answers in a trivia game.

(Apologies for being flippant. I could come up with a more serious answer, but it just doesn't seem that important.)
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2010, 11:11:24 PM »

Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "Founded on Pentecost." Smiley

While it has been said that Christ was born around 3 or 4 CE like you say, to most lay people, they see the birth of Christ as the "zero hour" between BCE and CE or BC and AD. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't AD loosely translate to be "The Year of Our Lord" from Latin to English?)

So to change the "founded in 33 AD" would not just be trying to change the perceptions of Orthodox Christians, but the world in general.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 11:22:32 PM »

I see Orthodox people say that Orthodoxy was founded in 33AD.

Ha! Aren't you familiar with the way a "sacred history" works? It's called smoothing over the edges and constructing an ideal past.
Logged
Cymbyz
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 496



« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 12:16:53 AM »

...or, as I like to say, a myth is as good as a mile.
Logged

The end of the world
is as near as the day of your death;
watch and pray.
 
 Yahoo! & WLM ID: Owen
St. Christopher
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 101


« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 04:55:29 PM »

I don't see how the Church could have been started before AD 32.  Luke 3:1 says that John started his ministry 15 years after the beginning of Emperor Tiberius's reign.  That would place its beginning in AD 29.  If Christ's ministry was three years, the Church started in AD 32 or 33.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 05:03:58 PM »

It makes us look like we are bound to whatever was taught in the past, and unable to cope with evidence that we were wrong. Was tradition given to man for his benefit, or was man given to tradition to be it's slave?

Are you aware of how much historians of ancient history would like to have a date pinpointed for any event within a decade (as opposed to decades), let alone 4 years or so?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 08:00:55 PM »

What a silly question. Everyone knows the Church was founded on October 8, 33 CE, at exactly 4:32 PM.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,520



« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 08:07:14 PM »

What a silly question. Everyone knows the Church was founded on October 8, 33 CE, at exactly 4:32 PM.
4:02 in Newfoundland.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,178


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 08:55:20 PM »

I don't see how the Church could have been started before AD 32.  Luke 3:1 says that John started his ministry 15 years after the beginning of Emperor Tiberius's reign.  That would place its beginning in AD 29.  If Christ's ministry was three years, the Church started in AD 32 or 33.

So the Church wasn't wrong. The Scripture just contradicts itself. *shrugs* ok Smiley
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 09:33:55 PM »

I don't see how the Church could have been started before AD 32.  Luke 3:1 says that John started his ministry 15 years after the beginning of Emperor Tiberius's reign.  That would place its beginning in AD 29.  If Christ's ministry was three years, the Church started in AD 32 or 33.

So the Church wasn't wrong. The Scripture just contradicts itself. *shrugs* ok Smiley
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself". -- Walt Whitman
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 09:38:07 PM »

Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 Huh

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Cymbyz
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 496



« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 10:05:50 PM »

Nothing wrong with the facts, but fact and truth are not always the same thing.
Logged

The end of the world
is as near as the day of your death;
watch and pray.
 
 Yahoo! & WLM ID: Owen
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 10:09:31 PM »

Could you please expand a bit on what you mean?  Thank you in advance

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,520



« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 09:15:57 AM »

I'm not Cymbyz, but I think I understand what he's saying. Think of our iconography: not always historically accurate, but always spiritually true.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2010, 10:09:32 AM »

Could you please expand a bit on what you mean?  Thank you in advance

Ebor

An example would be the icons of the Ascension and Pentacost compared:


You'll note that the Theotokos stands in the center of the Ascension (though scripture does not indicate her presense), but note her absence in Pentacost (through scripture tells us her presence in the upper room).  Her she stands as the icon of the Church, the physical presence of Christ left in the world, his body.  Hence why she stands in a column under her Son: as long as the Church remains in the world, so does Christ.  At Pentacost, the Apostles are in a circle with a gap at their head, signifying the conciliar nature of the Church through its episcopacy, who embody the presence of Christ (I've also heard that the absence of the Theotokos denotes the male/fatherly (versus motherly) characteristic of the hierarchy: I'm not sure anyone would have even thought that in question enough way back when to point that out.  Similarly, the gap also shows our objection to Vatican ecclesiology, but I doubt that the need to combat Ultramontanism would have necessitated expression at such an early date).  Note that St. Paul sits as one of the 12, certainly ahistorical, but true: St. Paul's credentials of Aposteship match those of the 12 disciples, just as those in the episcopacy after Christ's earthly mission, i.e. the bishops who succeed the Apostles until He come back, sit in Council as peers with the Apostles.  The absence of the Theotokos here underlines the dogamtic constitution of the Church as a hiearchal institution, as opposed to an ad hoc collection of believers in Jesus.

btw, compare the icon of Mid-Pentacost

and aberations of the Pentacost icon, out of concerns for "historicity" or undue hyperdulia/Mariolatry at the expense of truth

« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 10:23:53 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2010, 05:43:14 PM »

It makes us look like we are bound to whatever was taught in the past, and unable to cope with evidence that we were wrong. Was tradition given to man for his benefit, or was man given to tradition to be it's slave?

This thought is an example of what I call the "They're All Going To Laugh At You If You Believe That" school. It is interesting that the disciples of this school take up issues such as historical accuracy and certain scientific issues like evolution, but still profess to believe in the Virgin birth of Christ, or that Christ is true God and man, or that bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. Believing in these things, which to the rest of the world (the unbelievers) are ridiculous fables and fancies, I find non-dogmatic reliance on a particular dating system for the sake of convenience and tradition to be a trivial matter. We believe in what are, to the unbelievers, far stranger things. Besides, if we get undone because of what certain ignorami might think of us, then we have become slaves of a harsher master than historical convention.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,075


"My god is greater."


« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2010, 10:07:41 PM »

Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 Huh

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

If this thirst for "accuracy" leads us to get bent out of shape over trivia that have no bearing on the truth of the Gospel, then it is founded on passions and not on a genuine thirst for Truth.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2010, 11:12:04 PM »

I don't see how the Church could have been started before AD 32.  Luke 3:1 says that John started his ministry 15 years after the beginning of Emperor Tiberius's reign.  That would place its beginning in AD 29.  If Christ's ministry was three years, the Church started in AD 32 or 33.

So the Church wasn't wrong. The Scripture just contradicts itself. *shrugs* ok Smiley

 Remember, The Church gave us The Scriptures and it is The Church that explains The Scriptures.  Your last sentence is a Protestant mode of thinking.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2010, 11:16:27 PM »

Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 Huh

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

Ebor

 What is "true and real information", please?  Secular scientists will scoff at Christian "truths" so, who is correct?  I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.  Why, even Anglican's/Episcopalians have a different concept of "true and real information" which probably isn't a discussion you'd care to enter into.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 11:20:51 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2010, 12:21:03 AM »

What is "true and real information", please?  Secular scientists will scoff at Christian "truths" so, who is correct? 
The secular scientists.  Wink  laugh
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2010, 09:19:49 PM »

Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 Huh

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

Ebor

 What is "true and real information", please?  Secular scientists will scoff at Christian "truths" so, who is correct?  I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.  Why, even Anglican's/Episcopalians have a different concept of "true and real information" which probably isn't a discussion you'd care to enter into.

No, to be frank, I don't see what you are getting at, though the dig at my Church is fairly clear but not applicable in what I was thinking.   "True and real information" can be things like real people and dates and places and information about history that has a basis in verifiable accounts or primary sources.  Historical events really happened in particular times and places and that can be true while saying that something that did not happen actually did would not be true. 

With respect,

Ebor 
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2010, 09:22:46 PM »

Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 Huh

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

If this thirst for "accuracy" leads us to get bent out of shape over trivia that have no bearing on the truth of the Gospel, then it is founded on passions and not on a genuine thirst for Truth.

Wanting "accuracy" can counter error as well.  Sometimes it's not "trivia" but may be quite important in establishing the reality of something such as, for example the writing of the Gospels to earlier rather than later dates.
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2010, 09:38:04 PM »

What is "true and real information", please?  Secular scientists will scoff at Christian "truths" so, who is correct? 
The secular scientists.  Wink  laugh
Someone is sniffing the aether and phlogiston.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.099 seconds with 55 queries.