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Author Topic: another headcovering question  (Read 6246 times) Average Rating: 0
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David Carroll
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« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2010, 10:59:46 PM »

And this is how pheasants used to dress:

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« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2010, 11:21:14 PM »

That's so funny!  When I was a kid I used to get those two words mixed up.   Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2010, 11:38:45 AM »

Quote from: clarinet3685 link=topic=27613.msg446860#msg446860
I've gone out with my head covered a few times now, and never even got a look!  I suppose it helps that we live in the metro area of a very large city, with a lot of diversity, but no one even noticed me.  I've also begun noticing the large number of women I see with their heads covered.  

The area we live in has a large number of Orthodox Jews, including a synagogue and school. Orthodox Jewish people move to this neighborhood to be in walking distance of the synagogue, and to have easy access to the school. So it's very common to see women and girls with their heads covered, long sleeves, long skirts etc. The girl's softball team at the school plays in long-sleeved t-shirts and skirts! The local Kroger has a resident rabbi, and I still get a kick out of it when they page "Rabbi, line one." (Of course, I'm easily amused.  Grin)
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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2010, 11:55:10 AM »

Is that Birmingham, AL?
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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2010, 03:18:01 PM »

No, Atlanta.
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2012, 11:11:44 PM »

He said he'd rather they not wear the headcoverings but wear more modest clothing.
There's a cool video about that issue exactly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB2FpcutoL4  Grin
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2012, 11:42:18 PM »

Another cute video about headcoverings, and YES !  I've done all of these things myself!  http://www.youtube.com/user/SheIsCatholic?feature=watch#p/u/14/aK3A23yVGAg
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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2012, 12:39:45 AM »

On the topic of headcoverings...  people talk about their presence or absence being a distraction...  To me, it is distracting that everyone does their own thing.  I guess because I'm from Russia I'm used to headcoverings being on everyone.  I went to church in Russia when I was 11-13 years old, and I remember being told by Father to fix my headscarf before confession.  Now here in the United States, this one wears a scarf, this one doesn't, this one wears a hat, and this one pulls on her neckscarf when she goes to communion.  I want uniformity!  Stop distracting me!!  I want a big blue burka-like headscarf to be wrapped around each woman entering the church.  A smaller size burka-scarf can be made for little girls.
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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2012, 01:45:11 AM »

He said he'd rather they not wear the headcoverings but wear more modest clothing.
There's a cool video about that issue exactly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB2FpcutoL4  Grin

When you look like that, it really doesn't matter what you wear. You will be distracting every man without the degree of Godly concentration I possess.
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« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2012, 01:46:57 AM »

On the topic of headcoverings...  people talk about their presence or absence being a distraction...  To me, it is distracting that everyone does their own thing.  I guess because I'm from Russia I'm used to headcoverings being on everyone.  I went to church in Russia when I was 11-13 years old, and I remember being told by Father to fix my headscarf before confession.  Now here in the United States, this one wears a scarf, this one doesn't, this one wears a hat, and this one pulls on her neckscarf when she goes to communion.  I want uniformity!  Stop distracting me!!  I want a big blue burka-like headscarf to be wrapped around each woman entering the church.  A smaller size burka-scarf can be made for little girls.

Work on your concentration. Really, this should not be a big deal. If I can deal with everyone in the entire parish doing nearly everything wrong, including the Priest, you can deal with this.

Yes, I've written the Bishop extensively on all these matters.
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« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2012, 01:52:12 AM »

Another cute video about headcoverings, and YES !  I've done all of these things myself!  http://www.youtube.com/user/SheIsCatholic?feature=watch#p/u/14/aK3A23yVGAg

Obviously, wearing a head covering speaks to humility and lack of vanity.

What's this season's in fabric and patterns ladies? And which hairstyles best set off the head covering?

Put down the Corinthians and pick up:

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« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2012, 02:09:32 AM »

 Grin
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« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2012, 02:11:46 AM »

Grin

Great . . . you have a sense of humor.

That doesn't help my cause.

Welcome to the forum!

EDIT: Yes, I realize you aren't newly registered, but I just noticed you, which is all that matters.
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« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2012, 02:37:13 AM »

Another cute video about headcoverings, and YES !  I've done all of these things myself!  http://www.youtube.com/user/SheIsCatholic?feature=watch#p/u/14/aK3A23yVGAg

Obviously, wearing a head covering speaks to humility and lack of vanity.

What's this season's in fabric and patterns ladies? And which hairstyles best set off the head covering?

Put down the Corinthians and pick up:



All kidding aside, that video is quite charming and well meaning. A lovely young woman with a reasonable take on the purpose of a head covering.

If no one else is going to argue with me, I will.

//:=)

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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2012, 03:38:16 AM »

Another cute video about headcoverings, and YES !  I've done all of these things myself!  http://www.youtube.com/user/SheIsCatholic?feature=watch#p/u/14/aK3A23yVGAg

Obviously, wearing a head covering speaks to humility and lack of vanity.

What's this season's in fabric and patterns ladies? And which hairstyles best set off the head covering?

Put down the Corinthians and pick up:



All kidding aside, that video is quite charming and well meaning. A lovely young woman with a reasonable take on the purpose of a head covering.

If no one else is going to argue with me, I will.

//:=)



I cannot watch the video as my adobe flash player and printer are not working.
Somehow, the automatic updates messed things up. Gotta get that fixed this Saturday.
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« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2012, 03:58:06 AM »

I attend a parish which encourages veiling of women.
If a woman forgets and enters the chapel without a veil or if I have done the same, it is no big deal.
Soon enough we realize that all the other women are wearing a head covering, so we go to the basket containing scarves at the entrance, and pick out one. A yia-yia with a big stick is not needed.
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« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2012, 07:49:11 AM »

Hope I'm not intruding on you ladies here, but, could someone explain to me the meaning of the head-covering? To be honest, I never understood it. Is it to keep men from looking at you in an inappropriate way during Church? If that is the case, then, I am not so sure that it is really relevant in western society because many of these cultural practices are actually seen as even more attractive to the average western man as exotic and interesting. I think that in the old countries head-coverings may work and be important, but in the western world I think that they are becoming a bit obsolete. That is not to say that they are very beautiful and make a nice fashion statement, but, they do not really serve any important religious role in the western diaspora, unless there is something I am missing.
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« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2012, 10:07:01 AM »

I have heard it compared to the angels in Revelation, who cover their faces in front of the Lord.

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« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2012, 10:07:31 AM »


I have heard it compared to the angels in Revelation, who cover their faces in front of the Lord. Also, St. Paul in one of his Epistles says that women should cover their heads.


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« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2012, 10:22:33 AM »

I have posted this article back in 2006, it is an article that I wrote for my parish newsletter "Voice in the Wilderness" located at www.theforerunner.org in 2005 after the topic was brought up by women in our parish. The following is an article that I wrote for our newsletter that presents both sides of the story and what the Antiochian view of the issue is (as I understand it):

The Tradition of Women Covering their Head when They Pray

For nearly two thousand years, Orthodox women, according to the words of the holy Apostle Paul, have gone to God's church with covered heads.  Until recently, this custom has been kept by faithful women and has been handed down from generation to generation. It is a custom not only of the local churches, but also in world-wide Orthodox churches,  whether one is in the Greek, Antiochian, Russian, eastern European, or African Orthodox Church, women in the church have their heads covered.

In the United States since the 1960s ( after the Roman Catholic decision of Vatican II that women did not have to cover their heads), some Orthodox women have chosen not to follow this custom.  They have felt that it was dated custom that had no place in the practice of modern Orthopraxis. While head coverings are still the norm in the "old World", the response to this is varied by the jurisdictions in the United States.  In most Russian and Slavic Churches, head coverings are still required and a woman is not communed without a head covering. In the Greek, Antiochian, and many OCA parishes head coverings are not required and the practice is left as a pious custom that women may use or not use as they wish. Many parishes, like ours, have head coverings for women who wish them but do not require them.

SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR WOMEN COVERING THEIR HEADS
We find the basis for this pious custom of covering the head in Sacred Scripture itself, in the New Testament. The Most Holy Virgin Mary covered her head in the holy temple from her young years. According to tradition, her veil (head covering) in the Jerusalem temple was light blue; therefore, on the feast days of the Theotokos, Orthodox clergy often wear light blue vestments. The Most Holy Theotokos wore a veil (head covering) as a sign of her humility and submissiveness to God's will, which was manifested on the day of the Annunciation. Later the Apostle Paul reiterated the importance of this when he addressed the model for men and women as they prayed: 
"Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man [c.f. Genesis 2-3]. For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man. Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Church of God [i.e., if anyone want to complain about this, we have no other way of doing things, this is our practice; all the churches believe the same way]. Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together, not for the better, but for the worse. " (1 Corinthians 11:1-17)

According to St. Paul, Orthodox Women veil themselves as a sign that His glory, not theirs, should be the focus at worship, and as a sign of our submission to authority. It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and man, and a sign of our respecting the presence of the Heavenly Hosts at the Divine Liturgy. In veiling, we reflect the divine invisible order and make it visible. This St. Paul presents clearly as a practice of all the churches of his time.

THE ARGUMENT AGAINST HEADCOVERINGS
Faithful Orthodox women who choose to not cover their head in church note that they believe that St. Paul was speaking as a man of his time, and that this ordinance no longer applies in modern context.  They view this often more as a custom from the old world and not one that translates well into modern life. An example given is that in the "Old Country", Orthodox married women always had a head covering on to identify themselves as married and to help them protect themselves from the elements (much like to bonnets of pioneer women in the early US history). Women who choose not to wear a head covering note that several jurisdictions in the United States no longer require this custom after 1960s choosing to leave it a practice of personal piety.  As a result of these issues they see no mandate for the continued veiling of American Orthodox women.

Often the detractors of those women who choose not to veil will judge them by saying their only reason for not veiling is that "veils and headscarves are not in style" or "I don't want to spoil my hair style". The reality is that for the faithful Orthodox Woman, who chooses not cover her head, there is no spiritual value to their covering their heads and so they choose to not cover their heads.

THE ARGUMENT FOR HEADCOVERINGS
Faithful Orthodox women who choose to wear a head covering (veil) believe that in doing so she recalls the image of her who was vouchsafed to carry the Savior Himself. If the Most Pure and Most Blessed One herself had a covered head, shall we really consider the imitation of her as foolish or old fashioned?  To these women every outward action, accompanied by the correct Christian inward disposition, brings benefit to the soul. The action of wearing a head covering is one of obedience to the Holy Scripture and the tradition of the Church. The act is so rich with symbolism to these women. They often note that it is a "submission to authority", "a surrender to God", "an imitation of the Most Holy Theotokos as a woman who uttered her "fiat!"; "the covering of my glory for His glory", and a sign of modesty and chastity. Many converts feel that the veil is a symbol of their adoption into the Holy Orthodox Church through all of the ages and the women who are their spiritual ancestors and examples.  One person interviewed noted that in all the icons of Holy women, the one common point of most is the covering of their head by veil or scarf.

Just as there are detractors for those who choose not veil, those who choose to cover the head in church have their detractors who will judge them as "old fashioned and out of touch with the modern church", or " too legalistic".  The reality is that for the Orthodox Woman, who chooses to cover her head, there is real spiritual value and identification with the Church in the covering of their head and so they cover their heads.

TO VEIL OR NOT TO VEIL?
The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own  salvation in peril.

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« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2012, 10:27:02 AM »

To posters on the Convert Issues Board,

Please remember that our purpose is to stay on topic (no discussion of beards for men or male hair on this topic you may start your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue). Keep it simple with information , resources, and helpful information. The Convert Issues Forum is not a debate area of OC.net please go to other  OC.Net forums to debate topic issues.

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« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2012, 11:28:16 AM »

To posters on the Convert Issues Board,

Please remember that our purpose is to stay on topic (no discussion of beards for men or male hair on this topic you may start your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue). Keep it simple with information , resources, and helpful information. The Convert Issues Forum is not a debate area of OC.net please go to other  OC.Net forums to debate topic issues.

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I don't get it, who here violated any of the above?  People are having a normal conversation.
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« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2012, 11:36:31 AM »

To posters on the Convert Issues Board,

Please remember that our purpose is to stay on topic (no discussion of beards for men or male hair on this topic you may start your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue). Keep it simple with information , resources, and helpful information. The Convert Issues Forum is not a debate area of OC.net please go to other  OC.Net forums to debate topic issues.

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I don't get it, who here violated any of the above?  People are having a normal conversation.


I did yet again this week. Sorry Thomas!

I have to start reading more carefully the forum areas.

Nadege, my "joking" tone is not appropriate for this area. "Covert Issues" is for more straight forward, non-contentious, non-problematic discussion.

Also, before a mod says or perhaps already has. You should PM the mod if you ask any questions regarding their comments when the speak as a moderator rather than addressing the comments in public.

Really this forum is rather lax compared to many "religious" forums, so don't be to put off. Everything you posted to my eyes was just fine. Informative and well said.

Also, Thomas knows where this topic can go once people start to possibly argue, hence the mentioning of men's beards and hair.

Anyway.

Mea culpa!
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« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2012, 02:14:33 PM »

Really this forum is rather lax compared to many "religious" forums, so don't be to put off. Everything you posted to my eyes was just fine. Informative and well said.
I sure hope so, because I won't fit in in an uptight crowd.
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« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2012, 02:29:20 PM »

EDIT: Yes, I realize you aren't newly registered, but I just noticed you, which is all that matters.
It's hard not to notice my bright blue eyes, my disarming smile, and the trendy yellow hat...  police
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« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2012, 03:28:02 PM »

Quote
TO VEIL OR NOT TO VEIL?
The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own  salvation in peril.

Thanks Thomas.

I think the paragraph above from your essay is very important for I have read many a thread on the veiling of women where women who choose to veil are attacked as being full of prelest. Thus, they are judged. Therefore, veiling often becomes a "damned if you do, damned if you do not" situation. This should not be.

Indeed, I find that veiling helps me to be obedient as wearing a head covering reminds me not to engage in idle talk or listen to gossip around me that condemns me and others for wearing modest dress or a head covering. It got to the point in my former parish where I could only wear a veil when receiving Holy Communion. Finally, I left that jurisdiction and joined another where veiling was encouraged.
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« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2012, 04:36:32 PM »

Just to clarify- women are not obligated to wear headcoverings when praying at home, correct?
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« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2012, 07:15:31 PM »

Just to clarify- women are not obligated to wear headcoverings when praying at home, correct?

Some women wear them all the time even while sleeping as we are to pray unceasingly.

I only wear something on my head while sleeping if it is frigid outside with freezing drafts inside.
Usually a towel is the best choice especially if I have just recently washed my hair and it is still damp.
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« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2012, 09:16:17 PM »

I do wear my mantilla or headscarf when I pray at home.  It helps me concentrate, helps me relax my eyes (covers side vision), and so forth.  I also light a candle... neither is required, but things like that help one move away from the world and to God in their mind, just like having your icon in front of you, kneeling, etc..
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« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2012, 09:18:37 PM »

That's interesting. Thanks.
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« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2012, 11:58:53 PM »

That's interesting. Thanks.
You're welcome.  The way I understand this, Orthodoxy as an ancient religion, pays much attention to the externals.  Because externals do have a significant influence on the inner in the human being which God in his infinite wisdom knows and welcomes.

When it comes specifically to why a woman covers in prayer, the explanation that I've best understood is that in the Judaic tradition (and ours as a daughter tradition) what is sacred is covered in the temple of God, and the woman as a vessel of life is sacred and therefore should be covered in the temple of God.  The head covering is an accent on the woman's special place in creation and the special protection she has from above.  She may have it rough in the world, but the Lord has extended his special care to her as the weaker vessel, and covers her.  That's how I understand it.  The beautiful lace mantilla in today's world especially reminds her that she is not a sex object, not three holes and two hands, pardon me, as a woman is viewed in the crude world of pornography - but a beloved daughter of the King of all.  It doesn't matter if you're old or young, single or married, a mother or not - no woman is excluded from the honor.  I have so many ideas about this, I could go on forever.

I do not feel comfortable uncovered in a church - just due to how I grew up.  There was a time I forgot my mantilla, so I unzipped my down jacket hood and sat it on my head.  There was also a time I went and bought a scarf from a store across from church because I had no headcovering.  It's all good. :-)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 12:05:31 AM by Nadege » Logged
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