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Author Topic: another headcovering question  (Read 6502 times) Average Rating: 0
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clarinet3685
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« on: May 16, 2010, 07:42:33 PM »

I have a question about women covering their heads that I haven't been able to find the answer to.  I just emailed my priest to set up another meeting, but in the meantime I figured I'd post this question to all of you!  I'm an inquirer to Orthodoxy, and have been reading a lot about the practice of women covering their heads in church.  I absolutely feel this is something I should do, but is it appropriate since I am not yet Orthodox?  Also, I feel that I should cover my head at all times, since I try to always be praying to God.  I also feel this will help remind me of the person I am trying to be.  Would this be seen as inappropriate?  I thank you in advance for your responses.
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2010, 08:03:45 PM »

Being an inquirer shouldn't stop you from covering your head in church, especially if other women in your church cover their heads during worship. 

If the other women in the church don't cover, then it gets more tricky.  Covering can be seen by others who don't cover as a sort of false piety on your part, even though I know that is not your intent.  If the church you are attending is of one of the the Slavic or Oriental Orthodox traditions, chances are there are other women in your church who cover, and you would be fine doing so also.  In some of the other Orthodox traditions, covering the head during worship has fallen out of practice.

I wear a scarf in church and I find it helpful in focusing on worship.  You may want to try it, to see if it is helpful for you.

Covering your head outside of church is a different matter.  I don't think I could be that counter-cultural, but there are some women who are:

http://www.youtube.com/user/VeiledGlory

I would try it in church first, before thinking about wearing something all day.

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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2010, 10:38:47 PM »

I started covering once I was an inquirer. Before that I wanted to cover but didn't because the majority of our parish does not. This can be a highly emotionally issue at some parishes. Talking to your priest is the best thing to do.
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2010, 11:01:30 PM »

Thank you very much, Salpy and Quinault!  I am looking forward to talking to our priest about this issue.  I forgot to say that it's about 50/50 at our church as far as headcoverings go.  Salpy, thank you for the link you included - I've immersed myself in her blog and find it very interesting!  Thanks again!
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2010, 11:19:10 PM »

If about fifty percent of the women in the congregation wear scarves, I would go ahead and try it.  It's about 40/60 percent at my church, and it's not an issue:  If women want to cover, they do; If they don't, they don't.  All women at my church cover their hair for communion, though.

I find the most comfortable scarves are long rectangular ones.  They just stay on easier, as the long ends weigh them down in front.  They don't slip back, especially if they are made of cotton.  They're easy to find right now in a lot of stores.  They are very popular, as it is fashionable to wear them around the neck.  If the women at your church wear lace mantillas and you want to try that, there are places you can find them on the internet.  I can give you links if you want.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 03:56:15 AM by Salpy » Logged

katherineofdixie
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 11:01:14 AM »

When we first visited our parish, a majority of the women wore headcoverings, so even though I was only a visitor, I respected their customs and wore a scarf. I have continued to do so, even though now many don't in our parish. I'm not doing it out of some sense of piety or pride - it's something I'm used to and it seems to help me focus on prayer and the Liturgy. It's kind of similar to the reason I wear a cross. I don't wear a cross to show people I'm a Christian - I wear it to remind myself that I'm a Christian! And to act like one, if possible.
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2010, 03:18:37 PM »

I wonder how common it is for Orthodox women to wear head coverings at all times - I mean, outside of Russia.....and in the states, particularly.  I know of one young woman in our parish who does this.  There is one young woman who comes into the local coffee shop with a head scarf (I live in a podunk town) who I'm starting to develop a crush on  angel  - but I can't tell if she is muslim or not....or is just doing it as a fashion statement.
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 03:31:30 PM »

My wife will always wear a head covering in church to the point of avoiding entering the church without one — she has very strong convictions about it. She was formerly one who wore a head cover at all times, but has recently become OK (after asking my permission/decision, so if this is in error it’s on me) with the idea of going to the store/out in public/etc. without a cover. The idea when she was a full-time coverer was that she was to wear a head cover when praying, and we are to pray without ceasing — not saying this was the right understanding of the practice, more of an err on the side of caution.
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2010, 03:34:34 PM »

By the same argument, I should never wear a hat.  I always wear beanies on bad hair days, including now.  Better not pray.
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 04:15:26 PM »

By the same argument, I should never wear a hat.  I always wear beanies on bad hair days, including now.  Better not pray.
Maybe you shouldn't, just to be safe.  Wink

Like I said, it’s not what she’s doing anymore. (I think that’s the application conservative Mennonites — which we are obviously not —use.)
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 04:33:29 PM »

The best piece of advice is not to look down on those who don't wear headcoverings.  I didn't wear one for a long time because I didn't like the attitude of some women who do.  For instance, I read posts by one woman who honestly thought that women who didn't wear headcoverings were hung up on their looks, and tended to wear makeup, had to wear the latest fashions, etc.  Well, in the parishes the only difference I've seen is that some wear headcoverings and some don't (otherwise I don't really see any difference in the women--in fact, some of the women wearing headcoverings and maybe wear shorter skirts/dresses than some of the women who don't cover their heads).  In other words, don't think that you are better and more holy than women who don't wear headcoverings.  The women in my parish who do cover their heads aren't like that, thank goodness, but some you run into on the internet who are very judgmental of women who don't.  For the record, I've met very holy women in both categories.  Personally, if I was in a parish where women don't wear them, I probably wouldn't.  Even when I didn't wear a headcovering, I would have done it in a parish where women do.  In my current parish, some women do and some don't.  I think Father would prefer it, but he doesn't push the issue. 
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 04:36:57 PM »

I wonder how common it is for Orthodox women to wear head coverings at all times - I mean, outside of Russia.....and in the states, particularly.  I know of one young woman in our parish who does this.  There is one young woman who comes into the local coffee shop with a head scarf (I live in a podunk town) who I'm starting to develop a crush on  angel  - but I can't tell if she is muslim or not....or is just doing it as a fashion statement.

My bishop talked about a situation at the parish in an entertainment town that is in our diocese.  There are a lot of Russian women who attend that are acrobats and perform in circus acts.  They will wear their headcoverings but the rest of their bodies are barely covered.  He said he'd rather they not wear the headcoverings but wear more modest clothing.  I honestly doubt whether most Russian women always wear headcoverings.
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2010, 07:59:04 PM »

There is a woman who has attended my church for the last 15 years, who began attending because of her meeting and marrying one of this church's parishioners. During this time, she has been a very regular attender of services, as well as frequently helping out with various functions in the life of the parish. She dresses simply and not provocatively, her hair (which doesn't look styled to me) is tied back.

In this church, there's barely a bare female head to be found; in fact, there's a box of headscarves in a back room of which bare-headed women are expected to avail themselves. There are also long wrap skirts available for women who might (gasp!) enter the church wearing trousers. Yet, oddly enough, this woman I've mentioned has never worn anything on her head in all the time she's been there, nor has anyone, to my knowledge, ever made the slightest mention of why she is bare-headed (I know her husband well). From what I know, and have seen, of the conservatism of this parish, this is truly remarkable, and heartening. But to explain this acceptance without any dissent or criticism? That's beyond my ability, other than to say that what's important is not what's on a woman's head, but what's in her heart that matters.
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 11:38:43 AM »

The best piece of advice is not to look down on those who don't wear headcoverings.  I didn't wear one for a long time because I didn't like the attitude of some women who do.  For instance, I read posts by one woman who honestly thought that women who didn't wear headcoverings were hung up on their looks, and tended to wear makeup, had to wear the latest fashions, etc.  Well, in the parishes the only difference I've seen is that some wear headcoverings and some don't (otherwise I don't really see any difference in the women--in fact, some of the women wearing headcoverings and maybe wear shorter skirts/dresses than some of the women who don't cover their heads).  In other words, don't think that you are better and more holy than women who don't wear headcoverings.  The women in my parish who do cover their heads aren't like that, thank goodness, but some you run into on the internet who are very judgmental of women who don't.  For the record, I've met very holy women in both categories.  Personally, if I was in a parish where women don't wear them, I probably wouldn't.  Even when I didn't wear a headcovering, I would have done it in a parish where women do.  In my current parish, some women do and some don't.  I think Father would prefer it, but he doesn't push the issue. 

But I suppose if a man came in wearing a hat and prayed with his head covered  he would mention it as being improper.   

Funny stuff.  Women can cover their faces with make-up, their lips with lipstick, but "keep that piece of cloth off my head!"

Hmm.

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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 11:54:58 AM »

Dumb question, but couldn't one take the Big Black Baptist approach and wear a hat?
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 12:14:11 PM »

Dumb question, but couldn't one take the Big Black Baptist approach and wear a hat?


Sure, and some do. My goddaughter had on a gorgeous red straw hat last Sunday. But hats are fairly expensive and sometimes difficult to find, as well as not fitting very well. Scarves are better, IMHO.

BTW, it hasn't been that long that hats for women were the norm in practically all American churches. I can remember my mother wearing beautiful hats, and my great-grandmother would no more have gone "downtown" shopping without a hat and gloves than she would have gone in her nightgown.
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 03:00:38 PM »

Thank you everyone for your replies!  I'm glad katherine brought this up, about wearing a hat in church as well as shopping.  I'm not going to debate why we stopped doing this, but rather, what are peoples thoughts on continuing this tradition of covering one's head out of modesty.  I agree that it's only been in recent history that women haven't covered their heads, and I think it's a wonderful tradition to bring back - today you see so many women dressed in a way that would put the devil to shame.  I don't want to be a part of that (anymore!)  As a (hopefull) convert, how would this demonstration of modesty be recieved in the community?  I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying too hard, but I also feel that covering myself would be liberating - not having to worry about if my hair is just right, being able to pray whenever I need to without going to get my headscarf, etc.  Thanks again!
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 04:12:00 PM »

Quote
that women who didn't wear headcoverings were hung up on their looks, and tended to wear makeup

If they were that great-looking, they wouldn't have to wear make-up anyway.  police
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2010, 05:21:10 PM »

Thank you everyone for your replies!  I'm glad katherine brought this up, about wearing a hat in church as well as shopping.  I'm not going to debate why we stopped doing this, but rather, what are peoples thoughts on continuing this tradition of covering one's head out of modesty.  I agree that it's only been in recent history that women haven't covered their heads, and I think it's a wonderful tradition to bring back - today you see so many women dressed in a way that would put the devil to shame.  I don't want to be a part of that (anymore!)  As a (hopefull) convert, how would this demonstration of modesty be recieved in the community?  I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying too hard, but I also feel that covering myself would be liberating - not having to worry about if my hair is just right, being able to pray whenever I need to without going to get my headscarf, etc.  Thanks again!

I don't see anything wrong with wearing a hat instead of a headscarf unless it's big enough that it might be annoying for the person standing behind the wearer.  Headscarves are a little less intrusive.  In the winter, though, I do like to just wear the hat I already wore outside, as long as it's not dripping wet.
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2010, 06:43:08 PM »

Matuska will often do that during the winter.  She wears a knit cap during the winter and will just keep that on her head for the service. 
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2010, 08:03:32 PM »

Great idea about the hat!
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2010, 09:53:48 PM »

I'm not going to debate why we stopped doing this, but rather, what are peoples thoughts on continuing this tradition of covering one's head out of modesty.  I agree that it's only been in recent history that women haven't covered their heads,

Hello,  I'm not trying to make trouble for you, but wanted to point out that in history there were different customs in different cultures and that in some of them people in general or women did not always wear hats/scarves but that didn't mean that they were immodest.  It hasn't been universal.  There can be a cultural component as well as practical ones.  In Japan a woman with uncovered hair has not been thought immodest but hats or other coverings are worn for specific purposes such as for protection from the weather or dirt. In parts of the lands of the south Pacific area head covers were not part of the customary garb.  There might be things like ornaments or hairdressing or headbands or the like, but uncovered hair does not necessarily mean immodest. 

Also, in many places through history everyone wore something on their heads because it was cold or wet or because washing hair was not as easy as it is now with shampoo and such.

I apologize for coming in

Ebor
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2010, 10:54:18 PM »

Just in case people are interested, here are some links for head coverings:

Mantillas

Halo-Works:

http://www.halo-works.com/category/chapel_veils_and_latin_style_mantillas/

They are a bit expensive, but I have personally found Halo-Works mantillas to be of good quality.  Their soft tulle "Dorothy Ann" style is nice, as the long ends in front weight it down and keep it from slipping back too much:

http://www.halo-works.com/product/HW041ST/Dorothy-Ann---Soft-Tulle---HW041ST.html


Other places that sell mantillas:

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/category/1187/fuseaction/store.BrowseCategory/productsperpage/20/layout/grid/currentpage/1

http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/Headcoverings_Veils.html

http://www.headcoverings.com/

(This last two links have different kinds of coverings, in addition to lace mantillas.)


Scarves

Here is a link to a site that has many different types of coverings, including long rectangular scarves, triangular scarves, and square scarves:

http://www.tznius.com/


Also, as I said earlier, many stores have long rectangular scarves available, as they happen to be a fashionable accessory right now.


Here's a blog about headcoverings:

http://thoseheadcoverings.blogspot.com/

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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2010, 05:16:09 PM »

You might also try thrift stores--a lot of women at my parish have found them in thrift stores.  I have quite a collection that I've gotten in thrift stores, and they don't cost very much.
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2010, 07:06:25 PM »

I like this site
http://www.coveryourhair.com/
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2010, 11:05:54 PM »

Here's another: I bought this style http://www.garlandsofgrace.com/products-page/classic-coverings/suzannes-classic-cotton/

It's available in many different colours and has a narrow velvet ribbon stitched on the underside of the front edge. It looks good and stays put even on very fine thin hair and even during prostrations, which mantillas don't.
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2010, 03:30:07 AM »

Definitely thrift...most stores from traditional to punky will have say, a basket of scarves and that's how I got mine.
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2010, 04:49:48 PM »

Here's another: I bought this style http://www.garlandsofgrace.com/products-page/classic-coverings/suzannes-classic-cotton/

It's available in many different colours and has a narrow velvet ribbon stitched on the underside of the front edge. It looks good and stays put even on very fine thin hair and even during prostrations, which mantillas don't.


I love their head coverings. I've gotten a few of them. The Suzanne style you posted is one I regularly wear to church. I find when they're tied on the baby has a harder time tugging it off.   Grin
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2010, 12:19:51 PM »

I'm currently considering converting or rather starting the process of converting to the Orthodox church. I've read some literature and I'm going to a session next week to people who want to convert, but have not spoken to the local priest yet. I'm so glad I found this site! I was just looking at some pictures from local parish and saw some women covering their heads. I have never seen this before and was really confused. Now I understand that it is practised by some. I'm positively surprised. I was brought up lutheran but went to a catholic school and have read intensively about judaism and islam as well and I have always had an urge of covering my head when I pray,  but I had no idea it was still done in the orthodox church. Wow.
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2010, 09:57:56 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Maj!

I'm glad you found our site, too.   Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2010, 09:40:56 PM »

Dumb question, but couldn't one take the Big Black Baptist approach and wear a hat?


Sure, and some do. My goddaughter had on a gorgeous red straw hat last Sunday. But hats are fairly expensive and sometimes difficult to find, as well as not fitting very well. Scarves are better, IMHO.

BTW, it hasn't been that long that hats for women were the norm in practically all American churches. I can remember my mother wearing beautiful hats, and my great-grandmother would no more have gone "downtown" shopping without a hat and gloves than she would have gone in her nightgown.

only the Russians and Serbs in my church cover their heads with veils.  my godmother, and another woman, wear the most interesting hats!  then there are a number of women that don't cover their heads.  there is a lot of diversity when people move from different churches.  one woman doesn't use the pews, except for Father's sermon.  she stands out on the area rug to pray.
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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2010, 09:43:14 PM »

Here's another: I bought this style http://www.garlandsofgrace.com/products-page/classic-coverings/suzannes-classic-cotton/

It's available in many different colours and has a narrow velvet ribbon stitched on the underside of the front edge. It looks good and stays put even on very fine thin hair and even during prostrations, which mantillas don't.


I love their head coverings. I've gotten a few of them. The Suzanne style you posted is one I regularly wear to church. I find when they're tied on the baby has a harder time tugging it off.   Grin

my priest's wife could use that!  a choir director looking after a 2 year old and a 4 year old.
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2010, 01:20:28 AM »

I have a question about women covering their heads that I haven't been able to find the answer to.  I just emailed my priest to set up another meeting, but in the meantime I figured I'd post this question to all of you!  I'm an inquirer to Orthodoxy, and have been reading a lot about the practice of women covering their heads in church.  I absolutely feel this is something I should do, but is it appropriate since I am not yet Orthodox?  Also, I feel that I should cover my head at all times, since I try to always be praying to God.  I also feel this will help remind me of the person I am trying to be.  Would this be seen as inappropriate?  I thank you in advance for your responses.

I haven't read the other responses, but I can only say that I wish everyone had the same Christian spirit and attitude that you demonstrate with your question. NEVER let anyone or anything deter you from erring on the side of modesty, reverence, and devotion! Who cares if others think you are being "falsely pious." They cannot judge your heart. It is the Holy Spirit working within you that has caused you to desire to cover your head. Follow through with that desire, for in doing so you will be a righteous example to other women. Perhaps there are women who want to cover their heads also, but are afraid they will stand out. But if they see you covering, then they might feel encouraged to do so themselves. In short, there is nothing inappropriate about modesty and devotion.

Peace to you.

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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2010, 01:55:13 AM »

In my grandparents' generation head-covering was quasi-universal (outside of church); in my parents' generation it became less widespread, I would say, 50% or slightly less, in my generation it's quite rare and it surely looks hyper-pious or like an affectation. No longer as natural as for my grandmothers. They have been covering their head for all their lives. That is about 80 years.
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2010, 09:15:11 AM »

Thank you so much for your encouraging words, Gebre!  I will continue to cover, and know in my heart that it is not intended to be falsely pious, but to show glory to God and remind me of what I should be doing at all times - worshiping Him!  Thanks again,
Lindsay
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2010, 12:09:54 PM »

In my Church (in region of Moldova Romania) in Church all women wear a head covering young and old (except smaller children), outside of Church the older generation women still tend to wear them all the time. Interestingly Church is well attended by all age groups and services are very long. Last service was 3 hours with 1 hour (total time) kneeling and 2 hours standing. Only the very old sat rather than stand but even they still struggled to their knees when required.
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2010, 04:33:33 PM »

Welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2010, 06:33:05 PM »

There's alot of girls in modern American society who were some scarves around their hair. It is not a problem, or even necessarily a sign of religion.
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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2010, 10:24:25 PM »

There's alot of girls in modern American society who were some scarves around their hair. It is not a problem, or even necessarily a sign of religion.

Very true!  I've gone out with my head covered a few times now, and never even got a look!  I suppose it helps that we live in the metro area of a very large city, with a lot of diversity, but no one even noticed me.  I've also begun noticing the large number of women I see with their heads covered.  I'm learning not to assume anything about women wearing a headcovering.  You know what they say about when you assume... Grin
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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2010, 03:26:09 AM »

i am very new to here....this thread did catch my eye....i spent 30 years in pentecostal Assembly of God for which i have the utmost respect....but i dont think the evangelical church of today is much like the one i saw in the 70"s when we talked (and practiced) fasting, intense prayer, humility....somewhere along the line the general movement got off track....in those days, we often taught women that they needed a "covering" whether it be their husband, father, brother, pastor to represent the Father...not a "boss" by any means but someone to lovingly moderate, listen and advise....i love the symbolism of the head covering- that my holy God truly "covers" me with His grace and protection....i have talked with a few women during coffee hour and they are touched with that explanation...but no one wants to look "more pious" than others...i would not be averse to wearing covering whenever out of the home....just some thoughts...
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2010, 03:28:27 AM »

i am very new to here....this thread did catch my eye....i spent 30 years in pentecostal Assembly of God for which i have the utmost respect....but i dont think the evangelical church of today is much like the one i saw in the 70"s when we talked (and practiced) fasting, intense prayer, humility....somewhere along the line the general movement got off track....in those days, we often taught women that they needed a "covering" whether it be their husband, father, brother, pastor to represent the Father...not a "boss" by any means but someone to lovingly moderate, listen and advise....i love the symbolism of the head covering- that my holy God truly "covers" me with His grace and protection....i have talked with a few women during coffee hour and they are touched with that explanation...but no one wants to look "more pious" than others...i would not be averse to wearing covering whenever out of the home....just some thoughts...

Great thoughts! Welcome to the forum!


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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2010, 12:04:04 PM »

That's how our peasants used to dress:
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« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2010, 12:37:27 PM »

When I visited Romania, I was struck by the fact that nearly all the Pentecostal and Baptist women wore headcoverings all the time. Very beautiful!
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« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2010, 12:59:21 PM »

That's how our peasants used to dress:

That's beautiful! It's a shame that overall Westernization is killing cultural traditions such as national costumes.
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« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2010, 01:51:19 PM »

"That's how our peasants used to dress:"

And people in some parts of the country still do wear these at the weekend including teenagers, particularly in Maramurese in North Romania where traditions are still very strong. The colour on the apron indicates which village they come from.
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« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2010, 10:59:46 PM »

And this is how pheasants used to dress:

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« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2010, 11:21:14 PM »

That's so funny!  When I was a kid I used to get those two words mixed up.   Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2010, 11:38:45 AM »

Quote from: clarinet3685 link=topic=27613.msg446860#msg446860
I've gone out with my head covered a few times now, and never even got a look!  I suppose it helps that we live in the metro area of a very large city, with a lot of diversity, but no one even noticed me.  I've also begun noticing the large number of women I see with their heads covered.  

The area we live in has a large number of Orthodox Jews, including a synagogue and school. Orthodox Jewish people move to this neighborhood to be in walking distance of the synagogue, and to have easy access to the school. So it's very common to see women and girls with their heads covered, long sleeves, long skirts etc. The girl's softball team at the school plays in long-sleeved t-shirts and skirts! The local Kroger has a resident rabbi, and I still get a kick out of it when they page "Rabbi, line one." (Of course, I'm easily amused.  Grin)
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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2010, 11:55:10 AM »

Is that Birmingham, AL?
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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2010, 03:18:01 PM »

No, Atlanta.
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2012, 11:11:44 PM »

He said he'd rather they not wear the headcoverings but wear more modest clothing.
There's a cool video about that issue exactly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB2FpcutoL4  Grin
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2012, 11:42:18 PM »

Another cute video about headcoverings, and YES !  I've done all of these things myself!  http://www.youtube.com/user/SheIsCatholic?feature=watch#p/u/14/aK3A23yVGAg
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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2012, 12:39:45 AM »

On the topic of headcoverings...  people talk about their presence or absence being a distraction...  To me, it is distracting that everyone does their own thing.  I guess because I'm from Russia I'm used to headcoverings being on everyone.  I went to church in Russia when I was 11-13 years old, and I remember being told by Father to fix my headscarf before confession.  Now here in the United States, this one wears a scarf, this one doesn't, this one wears a hat, and this one pulls on her neckscarf when she goes to communion.  I want uniformity!  Stop distracting me!!  I want a big blue burka-like headscarf to be wrapped around each woman entering the church.  A smaller size burka-scarf can be made for little girls.
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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2012, 01:45:11 AM »

He said he'd rather they not wear the headcoverings but wear more modest clothing.
There's a cool video about that issue exactly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB2FpcutoL4  Grin

When you look like that, it really doesn't matter what you wear. You will be distracting every man without the degree of Godly concentration I possess.
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« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2012, 01:46:57 AM »

On the topic of headcoverings...  people talk about their presence or absence being a distraction...  To me, it is distracting that everyone does their own thing.  I guess because I'm from Russia I'm used to headcoverings being on everyone.  I went to church in Russia when I was 11-13 years old, and I remember being told by Father to fix my headscarf before confession.  Now here in the United States, this one wears a scarf, this one doesn't, this one wears a hat, and this one pulls on her neckscarf when she goes to communion.  I want uniformity!  Stop distracting me!!  I want a big blue burka-like headscarf to be wrapped around each woman entering the church.  A smaller size burka-scarf can be made for little girls.

Work on your concentration. Really, this should not be a big deal. If I can deal with everyone in the entire parish doing nearly everything wrong, including the Priest, you can deal with this.

Yes, I've written the Bishop extensively on all these matters.
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« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2012, 01:52:12 AM »

Another cute video about headcoverings, and YES !  I've done all of these things myself!  http://www.youtube.com/user/SheIsCatholic?feature=watch#p/u/14/aK3A23yVGAg

Obviously, wearing a head covering speaks to humility and lack of vanity.

What's this season's in fabric and patterns ladies? And which hairstyles best set off the head covering?

Put down the Corinthians and pick up:

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« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2012, 02:09:32 AM »

 Grin
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« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2012, 02:11:46 AM »

Grin

Great . . . you have a sense of humor.

That doesn't help my cause.

Welcome to the forum!

EDIT: Yes, I realize you aren't newly registered, but I just noticed you, which is all that matters.
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« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2012, 02:37:13 AM »

Another cute video about headcoverings, and YES !  I've done all of these things myself!  http://www.youtube.com/user/SheIsCatholic?feature=watch#p/u/14/aK3A23yVGAg

Obviously, wearing a head covering speaks to humility and lack of vanity.

What's this season's in fabric and patterns ladies? And which hairstyles best set off the head covering?

Put down the Corinthians and pick up:



All kidding aside, that video is quite charming and well meaning. A lovely young woman with a reasonable take on the purpose of a head covering.

If no one else is going to argue with me, I will.

//:=)

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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2012, 03:38:16 AM »

Another cute video about headcoverings, and YES !  I've done all of these things myself!  http://www.youtube.com/user/SheIsCatholic?feature=watch#p/u/14/aK3A23yVGAg

Obviously, wearing a head covering speaks to humility and lack of vanity.

What's this season's in fabric and patterns ladies? And which hairstyles best set off the head covering?

Put down the Corinthians and pick up:



All kidding aside, that video is quite charming and well meaning. A lovely young woman with a reasonable take on the purpose of a head covering.

If no one else is going to argue with me, I will.

//:=)



I cannot watch the video as my adobe flash player and printer are not working.
Somehow, the automatic updates messed things up. Gotta get that fixed this Saturday.
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« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2012, 03:58:06 AM »

I attend a parish which encourages veiling of women.
If a woman forgets and enters the chapel without a veil or if I have done the same, it is no big deal.
Soon enough we realize that all the other women are wearing a head covering, so we go to the basket containing scarves at the entrance, and pick out one. A yia-yia with a big stick is not needed.
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« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2012, 07:49:11 AM »

Hope I'm not intruding on you ladies here, but, could someone explain to me the meaning of the head-covering? To be honest, I never understood it. Is it to keep men from looking at you in an inappropriate way during Church? If that is the case, then, I am not so sure that it is really relevant in western society because many of these cultural practices are actually seen as even more attractive to the average western man as exotic and interesting. I think that in the old countries head-coverings may work and be important, but in the western world I think that they are becoming a bit obsolete. That is not to say that they are very beautiful and make a nice fashion statement, but, they do not really serve any important religious role in the western diaspora, unless there is something I am missing.
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« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2012, 10:07:01 AM »

I have heard it compared to the angels in Revelation, who cover their faces in front of the Lord.

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« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2012, 10:07:31 AM »


I have heard it compared to the angels in Revelation, who cover their faces in front of the Lord. Also, St. Paul in one of his Epistles says that women should cover their heads.


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« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2012, 10:22:33 AM »

I have posted this article back in 2006, it is an article that I wrote for my parish newsletter "Voice in the Wilderness" located at www.theforerunner.org in 2005 after the topic was brought up by women in our parish. The following is an article that I wrote for our newsletter that presents both sides of the story and what the Antiochian view of the issue is (as I understand it):

The Tradition of Women Covering their Head when They Pray

For nearly two thousand years, Orthodox women, according to the words of the holy Apostle Paul, have gone to God's church with covered heads.  Until recently, this custom has been kept by faithful women and has been handed down from generation to generation. It is a custom not only of the local churches, but also in world-wide Orthodox churches,  whether one is in the Greek, Antiochian, Russian, eastern European, or African Orthodox Church, women in the church have their heads covered.

In the United States since the 1960s ( after the Roman Catholic decision of Vatican II that women did not have to cover their heads), some Orthodox women have chosen not to follow this custom.  They have felt that it was dated custom that had no place in the practice of modern Orthopraxis. While head coverings are still the norm in the "old World", the response to this is varied by the jurisdictions in the United States.  In most Russian and Slavic Churches, head coverings are still required and a woman is not communed without a head covering. In the Greek, Antiochian, and many OCA parishes head coverings are not required and the practice is left as a pious custom that women may use or not use as they wish. Many parishes, like ours, have head coverings for women who wish them but do not require them.

SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR WOMEN COVERING THEIR HEADS
We find the basis for this pious custom of covering the head in Sacred Scripture itself, in the New Testament. The Most Holy Virgin Mary covered her head in the holy temple from her young years. According to tradition, her veil (head covering) in the Jerusalem temple was light blue; therefore, on the feast days of the Theotokos, Orthodox clergy often wear light blue vestments. The Most Holy Theotokos wore a veil (head covering) as a sign of her humility and submissiveness to God's will, which was manifested on the day of the Annunciation. Later the Apostle Paul reiterated the importance of this when he addressed the model for men and women as they prayed: 
"Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man [c.f. Genesis 2-3]. For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man. Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Church of God [i.e., if anyone want to complain about this, we have no other way of doing things, this is our practice; all the churches believe the same way]. Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together, not for the better, but for the worse. " (1 Corinthians 11:1-17)

According to St. Paul, Orthodox Women veil themselves as a sign that His glory, not theirs, should be the focus at worship, and as a sign of our submission to authority. It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and man, and a sign of our respecting the presence of the Heavenly Hosts at the Divine Liturgy. In veiling, we reflect the divine invisible order and make it visible. This St. Paul presents clearly as a practice of all the churches of his time.

THE ARGUMENT AGAINST HEADCOVERINGS
Faithful Orthodox women who choose to not cover their head in church note that they believe that St. Paul was speaking as a man of his time, and that this ordinance no longer applies in modern context.  They view this often more as a custom from the old world and not one that translates well into modern life. An example given is that in the "Old Country", Orthodox married women always had a head covering on to identify themselves as married and to help them protect themselves from the elements (much like to bonnets of pioneer women in the early US history). Women who choose not to wear a head covering note that several jurisdictions in the United States no longer require this custom after 1960s choosing to leave it a practice of personal piety.  As a result of these issues they see no mandate for the continued veiling of American Orthodox women.

Often the detractors of those women who choose not to veil will judge them by saying their only reason for not veiling is that "veils and headscarves are not in style" or "I don't want to spoil my hair style". The reality is that for the faithful Orthodox Woman, who chooses not cover her head, there is no spiritual value to their covering their heads and so they choose to not cover their heads.

THE ARGUMENT FOR HEADCOVERINGS
Faithful Orthodox women who choose to wear a head covering (veil) believe that in doing so she recalls the image of her who was vouchsafed to carry the Savior Himself. If the Most Pure and Most Blessed One herself had a covered head, shall we really consider the imitation of her as foolish or old fashioned?  To these women every outward action, accompanied by the correct Christian inward disposition, brings benefit to the soul. The action of wearing a head covering is one of obedience to the Holy Scripture and the tradition of the Church. The act is so rich with symbolism to these women. They often note that it is a "submission to authority", "a surrender to God", "an imitation of the Most Holy Theotokos as a woman who uttered her "fiat!"; "the covering of my glory for His glory", and a sign of modesty and chastity. Many converts feel that the veil is a symbol of their adoption into the Holy Orthodox Church through all of the ages and the women who are their spiritual ancestors and examples.  One person interviewed noted that in all the icons of Holy women, the one common point of most is the covering of their head by veil or scarf.

Just as there are detractors for those who choose not veil, those who choose to cover the head in church have their detractors who will judge them as "old fashioned and out of touch with the modern church", or " too legalistic".  The reality is that for the Orthodox Woman, who chooses to cover her head, there is real spiritual value and identification with the Church in the covering of their head and so they cover their heads.

TO VEIL OR NOT TO VEIL?
The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own  salvation in peril.

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« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2012, 10:27:02 AM »

To posters on the Convert Issues Board,

Please remember that our purpose is to stay on topic (no discussion of beards for men or male hair on this topic you may start your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue). Keep it simple with information , resources, and helpful information. The Convert Issues Forum is not a debate area of OC.net please go to other  OC.Net forums to debate topic issues.

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« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2012, 11:28:16 AM »

To posters on the Convert Issues Board,

Please remember that our purpose is to stay on topic (no discussion of beards for men or male hair on this topic you may start your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue). Keep it simple with information , resources, and helpful information. The Convert Issues Forum is not a debate area of OC.net please go to other  OC.Net forums to debate topic issues.

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I don't get it, who here violated any of the above?  People are having a normal conversation.
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« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2012, 11:36:31 AM »

To posters on the Convert Issues Board,

Please remember that our purpose is to stay on topic (no discussion of beards for men or male hair on this topic you may start your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue). Keep it simple with information , resources, and helpful information. The Convert Issues Forum is not a debate area of OC.net please go to other  OC.Net forums to debate topic issues.

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I don't get it, who here violated any of the above?  People are having a normal conversation.


I did yet again this week. Sorry Thomas!

I have to start reading more carefully the forum areas.

Nadege, my "joking" tone is not appropriate for this area. "Covert Issues" is for more straight forward, non-contentious, non-problematic discussion.

Also, before a mod says or perhaps already has. You should PM the mod if you ask any questions regarding their comments when the speak as a moderator rather than addressing the comments in public.

Really this forum is rather lax compared to many "religious" forums, so don't be to put off. Everything you posted to my eyes was just fine. Informative and well said.

Also, Thomas knows where this topic can go once people start to possibly argue, hence the mentioning of men's beards and hair.

Anyway.

Mea culpa!
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« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2012, 02:14:33 PM »

Really this forum is rather lax compared to many "religious" forums, so don't be to put off. Everything you posted to my eyes was just fine. Informative and well said.
I sure hope so, because I won't fit in in an uptight crowd.
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« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2012, 02:29:20 PM »

EDIT: Yes, I realize you aren't newly registered, but I just noticed you, which is all that matters.
It's hard not to notice my bright blue eyes, my disarming smile, and the trendy yellow hat...  police
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« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2012, 03:28:02 PM »

Quote
TO VEIL OR NOT TO VEIL?
The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own  salvation in peril.

Thanks Thomas.

I think the paragraph above from your essay is very important for I have read many a thread on the veiling of women where women who choose to veil are attacked as being full of prelest. Thus, they are judged. Therefore, veiling often becomes a "damned if you do, damned if you do not" situation. This should not be.

Indeed, I find that veiling helps me to be obedient as wearing a head covering reminds me not to engage in idle talk or listen to gossip around me that condemns me and others for wearing modest dress or a head covering. It got to the point in my former parish where I could only wear a veil when receiving Holy Communion. Finally, I left that jurisdiction and joined another where veiling was encouraged.
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« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2012, 04:36:32 PM »

Just to clarify- women are not obligated to wear headcoverings when praying at home, correct?
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« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2012, 07:15:31 PM »

Just to clarify- women are not obligated to wear headcoverings when praying at home, correct?

Some women wear them all the time even while sleeping as we are to pray unceasingly.

I only wear something on my head while sleeping if it is frigid outside with freezing drafts inside.
Usually a towel is the best choice especially if I have just recently washed my hair and it is still damp.
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« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2012, 09:16:17 PM »

I do wear my mantilla or headscarf when I pray at home.  It helps me concentrate, helps me relax my eyes (covers side vision), and so forth.  I also light a candle... neither is required, but things like that help one move away from the world and to God in their mind, just like having your icon in front of you, kneeling, etc..
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« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2012, 09:18:37 PM »

That's interesting. Thanks.
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« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2012, 11:58:53 PM »

That's interesting. Thanks.
You're welcome.  The way I understand this, Orthodoxy as an ancient religion, pays much attention to the externals.  Because externals do have a significant influence on the inner in the human being which God in his infinite wisdom knows and welcomes.

When it comes specifically to why a woman covers in prayer, the explanation that I've best understood is that in the Judaic tradition (and ours as a daughter tradition) what is sacred is covered in the temple of God, and the woman as a vessel of life is sacred and therefore should be covered in the temple of God.  The head covering is an accent on the woman's special place in creation and the special protection she has from above.  She may have it rough in the world, but the Lord has extended his special care to her as the weaker vessel, and covers her.  That's how I understand it.  The beautiful lace mantilla in today's world especially reminds her that she is not a sex object, not three holes and two hands, pardon me, as a woman is viewed in the crude world of pornography - but a beloved daughter of the King of all.  It doesn't matter if you're old or young, single or married, a mother or not - no woman is excluded from the honor.  I have so many ideas about this, I could go on forever.

I do not feel comfortable uncovered in a church - just due to how I grew up.  There was a time I forgot my mantilla, so I unzipped my down jacket hood and sat it on my head.  There was also a time I went and bought a scarf from a store across from church because I had no headcovering.  It's all good. :-)
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