Orthodox and Catholic views of Ioasaphat Kuntsevich

[stanley123]

As for the elevation to patriarch, that was done with the consensus of all the Orthodox patriarchs of the time. 

So the Orthodox patriarchs chose Ignatius as Patriarch of all Russia. I suppose at that time everyone thought him to be a sterling and excellent choice for the office and had only good things to say about his character and qualifications? And now since he was later converted by St. Josaphat to Catholicism, we only hear bad things about him and about St. Josaphat?

No, the Orthodox patriarchs elevated St. Job, who was already metropolitan of Moscow.

Ignatius was chose by the false Dmitry and installed by him: false praise from a false Czar for a false patriarch who went over to a false faith.

Wasn't the false Dimitry also Polish?

Orthodoc

LOL. Yes, rumor has it an illegitimate son of the Polish king.  Since he was a loyal son of the Vatican (which should have been a clue), one wonders what he had to do with an allegedly Orthodox Patriarch crowning him.

There are some studies that suggest that the false Dimitri was not really false at all, but the actual son of Ivan the terrible.  For one example, there is the book by Kostomarov: Kto byl pervy Lzedimitrij?
According to Kostomarov, Demetrius was convinced that he was of royal origin, and when Shuiski  said that he was not Ivan’s son, Demetrius summoned a assembly of Russia to look at these charges. Why would he have done this, if he were not convinced of his royal origin. And further, the assembly unanimously sentenced Shuiski to death, but Demetrius pardoned him. Why would Demetrius have pardoned his enemy Shuiski, unless Demetrius believed that the evidence that Shuiski had against him would not stand up?

Saddam Hussein used to frequently call assemblies to show how popular he was.  What he did was pull out opponents (who disappeared, everyone knew where) in front of a crowd he knew had control of.  What use did the false czar have for Shuiski?  There would lie your answer.

That is more nonsense. Shuiski was up for execution and Dimitri commuted his sentence and let him go free, in spite of the fact that Shuiski was hostile to him personally. 

[stanley123]

Wasn't the false Dimitry also Polish?

Orthodoc

LOL. Yes, rumor has it an illegitimate son of the Polish king.  Since he was a loyal son of the Vatican (which should have been a clue), one wonders what he had to do with an allegedly Orthodox Patriarch crowning him.

No. Not true.
This rumor is part of the historical vilification campaign waged against Dimitri. According to the following sources, Dimitri  was Russian and not Polish. See for example, Jacques Margeret, The Russian Empire and Grand Duchy of Muscovy, p. 80, 83; Howe, False Dimitri; Nikolai Kostomarov, Smutnoe vremia Moskovskogo gosudarstva v nachale XVII stolettiia (St. Petersburg 1904), p. 642; Solov’ev, Istoriia, 4:406; S. F. Platonov, Stat’i  po Russkoi istorii (St. Petersburg 1912), p. 276; S. M. Troitskii, Samozvantsy v Rossi XVII-XVIII vekov, Voprosy istorii, 1969, no. 3, p. 135; M.N. Tikhomirov, Samozvanshchina, Nauka I zhizen 1969, no 1, p. 119.

[elijahmaria]

Wasn't the false Dimitry also Polish?

Orthodoc

LOL. Yes, rumor has it an illegitimate son of the Polish king.  Since he was a loyal son of the Vatican (which should have been a clue), one wonders what he had to do with an allegedly Orthodox Patriarch crowning him.

No. Not true.
This rumor is part of the historical vilification campaign waged against Dimitri. According to the following sources, Dimitri  was Russian and not Polish. See for example, Jacques Margeret, The Russian Empire and Grand Duchy of Muscovy, p. 80, 83; Howe, False Dimitri; Nikolai Kostomarov, Smutnoe vremia Moskovskogo gosudarstva v nachale XVII stolettiia (St. Petersburg 1904), p. 642; Solov’ev, Istoriia, 4:406; S. F. Platonov, Stat’i  po Russkoi istorii (St. Petersburg 1912), p. 276; S. M. Troitskii, Samozvantsy v Rossi XVII-XVIII vekov, Voprosy istorii, 1969, no. 3, p. 135; M.N. Tikhomirov, Samozvanshchina, Nauka I zhizen 1969, no 1, p. 119.

I was under the impression that Ialmisry was the Orthodox history scholar on the board?  Is that not the case?

M.

[ialmisry]

Wasn't the false Dimitry also Polish?

Orthodoc

LOL. Yes, rumor has it an illegitimate son of the Polish king.  Since he was a loyal son of the Vatican (which should have been a clue), one wonders what he had to do with an allegedly Orthodox Patriarch crowning him.

No. Not true.
This rumor is part of the historical vilification campaign waged against Dimitri. According to the following sources, Dimitri  was Russian and not Polish. See for example, Jacques Margeret, The Russian Empire and Grand Duchy of Muscovy, p. 80, 83; Howe, False Dimitri; Nikolai Kostomarov, Smutnoe vremia Moskovskogo gosudarstva v nachale XVII stolettiia (St. Petersburg 1904), p. 642; Solov’ev, Istoriia, 4:406; S. F. Platonov, Stat’i  po Russkoi istorii (St. Petersburg 1912), p. 276; S. M. Troitskii, Samozvantsy v Rossi XVII-XVIII vekov, Voprosy istorii, 1969, no. 3, p. 135; M.N. Tikhomirov, Samozvanshchina, Nauka I zhizen 1969, no 1, p. 119.

I was under the impression that Ialmisry was the Orthodox history scholar on the board?  Is that not the case?

M.

Yes, your point?

[mike]

and in the next year they refused to obey of the Patriarch of Constantinopole.

First heard of it. Any sources?

I wanted only to notice that standart of Orthodoxy before the Union was terrible (common poligamy of bishops, ignorancy of the Clergy etc).

It's a false stereotype. There weren't many differences in the education of pre-Trent RCC and Orthodox clergy. In the second half of 16th century there were activities taken to improve the education of the clergy (Academy of Ostrog).

Could you also give any example of 'a polygamous Bishop'?

[Orthodoc]

and in the next year they refused to obey of the Patriarch of Constantinopole.

First heard of it. Any sources?

I wanted only to notice that standart of Orthodoxy before the Union was terrible (common poligamy of bishops, ignorancy of the Clergy etc).

It's a false stereotype. There weren't many differences in the education of pre-Trent RCC and Orthodox clergy. In the second half of 16th century there were activities taken to improve the education of the clergy (Academy of Ostrog).

Could you also give any example of 'a polygamous Bishop'?

Perhaps you should be asking youself WHY!  In those days the churches and seminaries, clergy, professors, etc. were paid by the government.  When the territory came under RC rule, the first thing the new RC government did was to undermine the Orthodox Church by not providing the necessary finances to support the church and educational institutions which had an  effect both the morale of the Hierachs and clergy.  Seminarians had to be approved by the government & bishops approved before they were consecrated.  Many of those applying for seminary were not religiously motivated but trying to learn to read and write.  These were the people chosen and approved by the government.

So many of those who support the Unia don't want to go back far enough to see the many reasons besides force and deceit that produced it.

Orthodoc

[ialmisry]

and in the next year they refused to obey of the Patriarch of Constantinopole.

First heard of it. Any sources?

I've held off commenting, but since you said something, I'd like to know if this is no more than projecting back the present divide between the Ukrainians and the Russians.

[Robb]

If Josaphat is not a saint (Or, at least in Heaven) then how does he supposedly work miracles?

I know not much about his life other then some GC apologetic material that I've read and some OC criticism, but he was canonized after all?

[ialmisry]

If Josaphat is not a saint (Or, at least in Heaven) then how does he supposedly work miracles?

You've heard of Jannes and Jambres?

I know not much about his life other then some GC apologetic material that I've read and some OC criticism, but he was canonized after all?

By the Vatican, to please the Polish Latin hierarchy.  We are not impressed.

[Robb]

Quote from: Robb on Yesterday at 10:49:46 PM
If Josaphat is not a saint (Or, at least in Heaven) then how does he supposedly work miracles?

You've heard of Jannes and Jambres?

Actually no, I haven't.

[LBK]

Jannes and Jambres were court magicians to Pharaoh, during the time of Moses. Their "miracles" are described in Exodus ch 7; they are mentioned by name in 2 Tim. 3:8.

[stashko]

I wouldn't put it Passed the catholic church after stitching him up,they dipping him in a vat of wax sculpting him, and walla it a miracle un-corrupted......

[griego catolico]

I wouldn't put it Passed the catholic church after stitching him up,that dipping him in a vat of wax sculpting him, and walla it a miracle un-corrupted......

How sad to see Orthodox Christians still taking pot shots at Saint Josaphat.

It is fact based on sworn testimonies that Orthodox Christians regarded him as a holy man and that the accusations against him were completely false. Plus, are we forgetting that Archbishop Meletius Smotritsky, who persecuted Saint Josaphat, converted as a result of his martyrdom?

Why do you avoid discussing these facts?

What Mark Twain once said is applicable here: ""A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." 

The words of Our Lord are even more to the point: "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." (Matthew 10:22)

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.
 
Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

[ialmisry]

I wouldn't put it Passed the catholic church after stitching him up,that dipping him in a vat of wax sculpting him, and walla it a miracle un-corrupted......

How sad to see Orthodox Christians still taking pot shots at Saint Josaphat.

It is fact based on sworn testimonies that Orthodox Christians regarded him as a holy man and that the accusations against him were completely false.

How can non-existent Orthodox (the Orthodox having ceased to exist in 1596  ) swear to anything, in particular as they had no legal standing? Is the sotry of the Orthodox joyfully flocking to submit to the Vatican also based on such "testimony?"

Plus, are we forgetting that Archbishop Meletius Smotritsky, who persecuted Saint Josaphat, converted as a result of his martyrdom?

Are we forgetting that someone trying to save his own neck can say all manner of things?
http://books.google.com/books?id=9FN9gT7CQw4C&pg=PA81&dq=Meletij+Smotritsky+Kuntsevich&cd=1#v=onepage&q=Meletij%20Smotritsky%20Kuntsevich&f=false

Why do you avoid discussing these facts?

Because they are not, much like the "Happy Union" fables.

What Mark Twain once said is applicable here: ""A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."  

The words of Our Lord are even more to the point: "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." (Matthew 10:22)

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.

He's beyond your opinion, but has anyone even accused him of mass murder?
 

Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

Lord, by the prayers of Your saint Father Alexis, save us from such.

[stashko]

A Orthodox person would have to be insane, to accept or venerate some one that destroyed our Holy Orthodox churches and faithful.......

[Orest]

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.
 
Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

St. Alexis Toth does not personally persecute Christians of other denominations not have the support of the government behind him.  There is no comparison.

[stanley123]

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.
 
Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

St. Alexis Toth does not personally persecute Christians of other denominations not have the support of the government behind him.  There is no comparison.

Wikipedia has a revealing article on him. Here is part:
...............................................................................................
"As a *{Byzantine Catholic)* , Toth honored the custom that required him to visit the local Roman Catholic bishop in his new area, even though as a Ruthenian Catholic he had been given authority to serve in Minneapolis by his own prelate and did not require the Roman bishop's permission to function as a priest there. The Catholic bishop of the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis at this time was John Ireland, who was involved in attempts to "Americanize" German and other Catholic immigrants, and who desired the expulsion of all *(Byzantine Catholic)* clergy from the United States. When speaking of their meeting, Toth later reported that Bishop Ireland became angry and threw Toth's priestly credentials onto his table while ardently protesting his presence in the city. Ireland even insisted that neither Toth nor his bishop were Catholic at all, in clear contradiction of the Union of Brest and Papal decrees to the contrary. Toth reported that the conversation became more heated as it progressed, with both men losing their tempers.
Ireland refused to give Toth permission to serve as a priest in Minneapolis, although such permission was not legally required under Catholic law (as Toth was Ruthenian Catholic, and thus under a separate synod of bishops from the Roman Catholic church). He furthermore ordered the Roman Catholic parishes and priests in the city not to have anything to do with Toth or his parishioners."
...................................................................................

This is beyond outrageous. No wonder Father Toth converted to Russian Orthodoxy.
N.B. Original article in wikipedia has the U word instead of *(Byzantine Catholic)*. I changed it because of the policy of the board, so it is not a completely 100% accurate quote from wikipedia. But the full article is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Toth

[deusveritasest]

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.
 
Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

St. Alexis Toth does not personally persecute Christians of other denominations not have the support of the government behind him.  There is no comparison.

Wikipedia has a revealing article on him. Here is part:
"As a Uniate, Toth honored the custom that required him to visit the local Roman Catholic bishop in his new area, even though as a Ruthenian Catholic he had been given authority to serve in Minneapolis by his own prelate and did not require the Roman bishop's permission to function as a priest there. The Catholic bishop of the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis at this time was John Ireland, who was involved in attempts to "Americanize" German and other Catholic immigrants, and who desired the expulsion of all Uniate clergy from the United States. When speaking of their meeting, Toth later reported that Bishop Ireland became angry and threw Toth's priestly credentials onto his table while ardently protesting his presence in the city. Ireland even insisted that neither Toth nor his bishop were Catholic at all, in clear contradiction of the Union of Brest and Papal decrees to the contrary. Toth reported that the conversation became more heated as it progressed, with both men losing their tempers.

Ireland refused to give Toth permission to serve as a priest in Minneapolis, although such permission was not legally required under Catholic law (as Toth was Ruthenian Catholic, and thus under a separate synod of bishops from the Roman Catholic church). He furthermore ordered the Roman Catholic parishes and priests in the city not to have anything to do with Toth or his parishioners."
This is beyond outrageous. No wonder Father Toth converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

It depends. The bishops may or may not have been justified. I have encountered a number of "Eastern Catholics" nowadays who blatantly repudiate the dogmatic tradition of Rome.

[Irish Hermit]

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.
 
Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

St. Alexis Toth does not personally persecute Christians of other denominations not have the support of the government behind him.  There is no comparison.

Wikipedia has a revealing article on him. Here is part:
"As a Uniate, Toth honored the custom that required him to visit the local Roman Catholic bishop in his new area, even though as a Ruthenian Catholic he had been given authority to serve in Minneapolis by his own prelate and did not require the Roman bishop's permission to function as a priest there. The Catholic bishop of the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis at this time was John Ireland, who was involved in attempts to "Americanize" German and other Catholic immigrants, and who desired the expulsion of all Uniate clergy from the United States. When speaking of their meeting, Toth later reported that Bishop Ireland became angry and threw Toth's priestly credentials onto his table while ardently protesting his presence in the city. Ireland even insisted that neither Toth nor his bishop were Catholic at all, in clear contradiction of the Union of Brest and Papal decrees to the contrary. Toth reported that the conversation became more heated as it progressed, with both men losing their tempers.

Ireland refused to give Toth permission to serve as a priest in Minneapolis, although such permission was not legally required under Catholic law (as Toth was Ruthenian Catholic, and thus under a separate synod of bishops from the Roman Catholic church). He furthermore ordered the Roman Catholic parishes and priests in the city not to have anything to do with Toth or his parishioners."
This is beyond outrageous. No wonder Father Toth converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

It depends. The bishops may or may not have been justified. I have encountered a number of "Eastern Catholics" nowadays who blatantly repudiate the dogmatic tradition of Rome.

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

[elijahmaria]

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.
 
Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

St. Alexis Toth does not personally persecute Christians of other denominations not have the support of the government behind him.  There is no comparison.

Wikipedia has a revealing article on him. Here is part:
"As a Uniate, Toth honored the custom that required him to visit the local Roman Catholic bishop in his new area, even though as a Ruthenian Catholic he had been given authority to serve in Minneapolis by his own prelate and did not require the Roman bishop's permission to function as a priest there. The Catholic bishop of the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis at this time was John Ireland, who was involved in attempts to "Americanize" German and other Catholic immigrants, and who desired the expulsion of all Uniate clergy from the United States. When speaking of their meeting, Toth later reported that Bishop Ireland became angry and threw Toth's priestly credentials onto his table while ardently protesting his presence in the city. Ireland even insisted that neither Toth nor his bishop were Catholic at all, in clear contradiction of the Union of Brest and Papal decrees to the contrary. Toth reported that the conversation became more heated as it progressed, with both men losing their tempers.

Ireland refused to give Toth permission to serve as a priest in Minneapolis, although such permission was not legally required under Catholic law (as Toth was Ruthenian Catholic, and thus under a separate synod of bishops from the Roman Catholic church). He furthermore ordered the Roman Catholic parishes and priests in the city not to have anything to do with Toth or his parishioners."
This is beyond outrageous. No wonder Father Toth converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

It depends. The bishops may or may not have been justified. I have encountered a number of "Eastern Catholics" nowadays who blatantly repudiate the dogmatic tradition of Rome.

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.   Not all Slavs behave like some of the more aggressive and nasty Slavic peoples, so you cannot judge the ones who are not mean-spirited as simply submissive by comparison. 

Many Greek Catholics were deeply disturbed and still are but they see things changing and are happy for that and not regretful for remaining with what they believe to be the true Catholic Church.

M.

[Irish Hermit]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

[elijahmaria]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....    Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

M.

[Irish Hermit]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.   
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself? 

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....    Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

[elijahmaria]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....   Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

This is false witness.  I protest.  I have said they allow any manner of pressures from other bishops to deter them and I have called some of them venal and corrupt but I know how our episcopacy works and I have NEVER faulted a bishop for loyalty to the Catholic faith....never.

Mary

[Irish Hermit]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.   
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself? 

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....    Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

This is false witness.  I protest.  I have said they allow any manner of pressures from other bishops to deter them and I have called some of them venal and corrupt but I know how our episcopacy works and I have NEVER faulted a bishop for loyalty to the Catholic faith....never.

Mary

Hmmm... nice red herring!   Did I say you have faulted bishops for their loyalty to the Catholic faith?

[ialmisry]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.   
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself? 

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....    Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

This is false witness.  I protest.  I have said they allow any manner of pressures from other bishops to deter them and I have called some of them venal and corrupt but I know how our episcopacy works and I have NEVER faulted a bishop for loyalty to the Catholic faith....never.

Mary

Hmmm... nice red herring!   Did I say you have faulted bishops for their loyalty to the Catholic faith?

What loyalty to the Catholic Faith?  They submitted to the Vatican.

[Orthodoc]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....   Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

Mary:

Speaking of the Byzantine Catholic Forum, from your own admission you were banned from there for life!  When I used to participate, I was suspended more than once.  Usually for thirty days at a time.  But never banned for life!  Since you are the one who made it public, mind sharing with us why you received such a harsh punishment? 

Orthodoc

[elijahmaria]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.   
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself? 

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....    Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

This is false witness.  I protest.  I have said they allow any manner of pressures from other bishops to deter them and I have called some of them venal and corrupt but I know how our episcopacy works and I have NEVER faulted a bishop for loyalty to the Catholic faith....never.

Mary

Hmmm... nice red herring!   Did I say you have faulted bishops for their loyalty to the Catholic faith?

What loyalty to the Catholic Faith?  They submitted to the Vatican.

I profess the same Creed that you do! and I am a Catholic and I revere the pope and look to him and to his office for guidance on many things,  and believe without question that the Mother of God was filled with the Holy Spirit from the instant of her becoming.

 

[ialmisry]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.   
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself? 

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....    Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

This is false witness.  I protest.  I have said they allow any manner of pressures from other bishops to deter them and I have called some of them venal and corrupt but I know how our episcopacy works and I have NEVER faulted a bishop for loyalty to the Catholic faith....never.

Mary

Hmmm... nice red herring!   Did I say you have faulted bishops for their loyalty to the Catholic faith?

What loyalty to the Catholic Faith?  They submitted to the Vatican.

I profess the same Creed that you do!

Not with filioque you don't.

and I am a Catholic and I revere the pope and look to him and to his office for guidance on many things, 

after upholding the Catholic Faith on filioque, at the emperor's direction (they don't talk much about Caesaropapism in the West) he misguided you on filioque.  He has misguided you on Kuntsevich.

and believe without question that the Mother of God was filled with the Holy Spirit from the instant of her becoming.

So was the prophet Jeremiah and St. John the Baptist.  Are their feasts for their immaculate conceptions too?

[elijahmaria]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....   Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

Mary:

Speaking of the Byzantine Catholic Forum, from your own admission you were banned from there for life!  When I used to participate, I was suspended more than once.  Usually for thirty days at a time.  But never banned for life!  Since you are the one who made it public, mind sharing with us why you received such a harsh punishment? 

Orthodoc

I do not know really what caused the hardness of heart in John Vernosky.  

What I THINK started it does not bear repeating in detail.  I will give you this much.  

My spiritual father was exceptionally ill treated by a bishop.  I was irate watching my spiritual father suffer unduly and without just cause, and have to grovel to people outside of the Church just for groceries, so I began to call for the timely retirement of that bishop.  That set a number of people and priests in the diocese against me to the point where I was called at my home and harassed by them.  I had been seeking counsel with my Church for help with a vocation and I was told that my vocation was "dead in the water."  In the sense that I will ever again seek with them, they are correct.  God will provide.  There is much that is ugly in all of this and that is as much of it as I will air now.

Also I defended Catholic teaching strongly against those who would represent it falsely.  

Also I am a woman working hard in a man's world...Intellectual world.

So I was bullied as I have been bullied here.  For example Father Ambrose in an effort to best me in a discussion here has revealed something in my private life that is deeply distressing to me and that I had asked for prayers for in a semi-private forum where he was a periodic participant.  But he unloaded it here simply to make a point knowing that his comparison is apples and oranges, but he exposed my personal distress nonetheless.  I am shocked that a priest would do that simply to gain points in an argument, but one learns not to have great expectations in this life.  This is not our home and so we should not look for creature comforts.

Frankly I think John Vernosky has control issues and I challenged him for his double standard...the one he imposes on others for civil discourse but does not keep himself.  He is the one who has insisted that I never return there.  It is no loss to me.  But I think it was a combination of things and I am sorry for the times I did loose my temper but I never apologize for telling the truth as my Church has taught me over the years.

Mary

[Orest]

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?   

By the way, the proposed "Articles of Brest" were never signed by the Pope or any official of the Roman Catholic Church.
So they are just that "proposed".  What created the Ruthenian Catholic Church was an act of submission to the Pope and a declaration signed by the Pope not the "Articles of Brest".

[elijahmaria]

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?   

By the way, the proposed "Articles of Brest" were never signed by the Pope or any official of the Roman Catholic Church.
So they are just that "proposed".  What created the Ruthenian Catholic Church was an act of submission to the Pope and a declaration signed by the Pope not the "Articles of Brest".

It is true Orest and more's the pity because the reasonable understanding was that Rome agreed to the terms and it was upon those terms that the unionizing bishops agreed to come forward, and it was what the people expected as well.

It is a deep shame to the Catholic Church...this treatment of those who would accept union.  It is a very deep shame, and in some measure we deserve what we get.  But even that has limits and it has been said over and over again that it would not happen ever again.  I'd like to trust that as the truth.  I think there are many people dedicated to insuring that it does not.

Mary

[Orthodoc]

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

By the way, the proposed "Articles of Brest" were never signed by the Pope or any official of the Roman Catholic Church.
So they are just that "proposed".  What created the Ruthenian Catholic Church was an act of submission to the Pope and a declaration signed by the Pope not the "Articles of Brest".

If I remember correctly was signed by only 66 priests out of hundreds and not one Orthodox bishop.  All the Orthodox bishops were in prison at the time!

Orthodoc

[Irish Hermit]

For example Father Ambrose in an effort to best me in a discussion here has revealed something in my private life that is deeply distressing to me and that I had asked for prayers for in a semi-private forum where he was a periodic participant.  But he unloaded it here simply to make a point......

No, sweet Mary (although you caused me to be stricken with a moment of profound guilt.)  You have spoken of this publicly and on this forum on 1st May.

May I have your son's first name? I'll add him to my prayers. I've struggled with faith as well over the last few years.

Francis Barrett is his name.  He struggles with alcohol addiction.

Mary

Since you revealed that I have included his name in the Friday night Akathist to the Mother of God of the Inexhaustible Cup.  Let's pray it together, for both our suffering sons, Francis and Nicholas.

Text of this wonderful Akathist: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/resources/services/akathist_inexhaustible_cup.htm

[Orthodoc]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....   Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

Mary:

Speaking of the Byzantine Catholic Forum, from your own admission you were banned from there for life!  When I used to participate, I was suspended more than once.  Usually for thirty days at a time.  But never banned for life!  Since you are the one who made it public, mind sharing with us why you received such a harsh punishment?

Orthodoc

I do not know really what caused the hardness of heart in John Vernosky.  

What I THINK started it does not bear repeating in detail.  I will give you this much.  

My spiritual father was exceptionally ill treated by a bishop.  I was irate watching my spiritual father suffer unduly and without just cause, and have to grovel to people outside of the Church just for groceries, so I began to call for the timely retirement of that bishop.  That set a number of people and priests in the diocese against me to the point where I was called at my home and harassed by them.  I had been seeking counsel with my Church for help with a vocation and I was told that my vocation was "dead in the water."  In the sense that I will ever again seek with them, they are correct.  God will provide.  There is much that is ugly in all of this and that is as much of it as I will air now.


Also I defended Catholic teaching strongly against those who would represent it falsely.  

Also I am a woman working hard in a man's world...Intellectual world.

So I was bullied as I have been bullied here.  For example Father Ambrose in an effort to best me in a discussion here has revealed something in my private life that is deeply distressing to me and that I had asked for prayers for in a semi-private forum where he was a periodic participant.  But he unloaded it here simply to make a point knowing that his comparison is apples and oranges, but he exposed my personal distress nonetheless.  I am shocked that a priest would do that simply to gain points in an argument, but one learns not to have great expectations in this life.  This is not our home and so we should not look for creature comforts.

Frankly I think John Vernosky has control issues and I challenged him for his double standard...the one he imposes on others for civil discourse but does not keep himself.  He is the one who has insisted that I never return there.  It is no loss to me.  But I think it was a combination of things and I am sorry for the times I did loose my temper but I never apologize for telling the truth as my Church has taught me over the years.

Mary

So you were also in there to try and teach them what they should believe as true Eastern Catholics In Communion With The Pope and they disagreed on what you had to say?  

Orthodoc

[elijahmaria]

I apologize. I was wrong then. 

You see how deeply I am distressed by it.  I come and ask prayers of those who cause me deep hurt.

Sometimes I wonder why God has placed this burden in my heart...not my son, but the desire for union of our confessions.  I wish to heaven He had let me alone as a peaceful and good Latin Catholic.  I do not understand any of this some days.

I always have Nicholas in my prayers, and you however upset I get with you.

I can tell you now that if I had know then what I know now about the people on this Forum, I would never has asked so openly and with trust....

Mary

For example Father Ambrose in an effort to best me in a discussion here has revealed something in my private life that is deeply distressing to me and that I had asked for prayers for in a semi-private forum where he was a periodic participant.  But he unloaded it here simply to make a point......

No, sweet Mary (although you caused me to be stricken with a moment of profound guilt.)  You have spoken of this publicly and on this forum on 1st May.

May I have your son's first name? I'll add him to my prayers. I've struggled with faith as well over the last few years.

Francis Barrett is his name.  He struggles with alcohol addiction.

Mary

Since you revealed that I have included his name in the Friday night Akathist to the Mother of God of the Inexhaustible Cup.  Let's pray it together, for both our suffering sons, Francis and Nicholas.

Text of this wonderful Akathist: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/resources/services/akathist_inexhaustible_cup.htm

[/quote]

[elijahmaria]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....   Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

Mary:

Speaking of the Byzantine Catholic Forum, from your own admission you were banned from there for life!  When I used to participate, I was suspended more than once.  Usually for thirty days at a time.  But never banned for life!  Since you are the one who made it public, mind sharing with us why you received such a harsh punishment?

Orthodoc

I do not know really what caused the hardness of heart in John Vernosky.  

What I THINK started it does not bear repeating in detail.  I will give you this much.  

My spiritual father was exceptionally ill treated by a bishop.  I was irate watching my spiritual father suffer unduly and without just cause, and have to grovel to people outside of the Church just for groceries, so I began to call for the timely retirement of that bishop.  That set a number of people and priests in the diocese against me to the point where I was called at my home and harassed by them.  I had been seeking counsel with my Church for help with a vocation and I was told that my vocation was "dead in the water."  In the sense that I will ever again seek with them, they are correct.  God will provide.  There is much that is ugly in all of this and that is as much of it as I will air now.


Also I defended Catholic teaching strongly against those who would represent it falsely.  

Also I am a woman working hard in a man's world...Intellectual world.

So I was bullied as I have been bullied here.  For example Father Ambrose in an effort to best me in a discussion here has revealed something in my private life that is deeply distressing to me and that I had asked for prayers for in a semi-private forum where he was a periodic participant.  But he unloaded it here simply to make a point knowing that his comparison is apples and oranges, but he exposed my personal distress nonetheless.  I am shocked that a priest would do that simply to gain points in an argument, but one learns not to have great expectations in this life.  This is not our home and so we should not look for creature comforts.

Frankly I think John Vernosky has control issues and I challenged him for his double standard...the one he imposes on others for civil discourse but does not keep himself.  He is the one who has insisted that I never return there.  It is no loss to me.  But I think it was a combination of things and I am sorry for the times I did loose my temper but I never apologize for telling the truth as my Church has taught me over the years.

Mary

So you were also in there to try and teach them what they should believe as true Eastern Catholics In Communion With The Pope and they disagreed on what you had to say?  

Orthodoc

Make it look as ugly as you like lovie.  It is your soul, not mine.   I happen to have some understanding of what it is the Latin Church DOES teach and so when I find it being mutilated, I will correct to the best of my ability and there is NO shame in that at all.

Mary

[Orthodoc]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....   Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

Mary:

Speaking of the Byzantine Catholic Forum, from your own admission you were banned from there for life!  When I used to participate, I was suspended more than once.  Usually for thirty days at a time.  But never banned for life!  Since you are the one who made it public, mind sharing with us why you received such a harsh punishment?

Orthodoc

I do not know really what caused the hardness of heart in John Vernosky.  

What I THINK started it does not bear repeating in detail.  I will give you this much.  

My spiritual father was exceptionally ill treated by a bishop.  I was irate watching my spiritual father suffer unduly and without just cause, and have to grovel to people outside of the Church just for groceries, so I began to call for the timely retirement of that bishop.  That set a number of people and priests in the diocese against me to the point where I was called at my home and harassed by them.  I had been seeking counsel with my Church for help with a vocation and I was told that my vocation was "dead in the water."  In the sense that I will ever again seek with them, they are correct.  God will provide.  There is much that is ugly in all of this and that is as much of it as I will air now.


Also I defended Catholic teaching strongly against those who would represent it falsely.  

Also I am a woman working hard in a man's world...Intellectual world.

So I was bullied as I have been bullied here.  For example Father Ambrose in an effort to best me in a discussion here has revealed something in my private life that is deeply distressing to me and that I had asked for prayers for in a semi-private forum where he was a periodic participant.  But he unloaded it here simply to make a point knowing that his comparison is apples and oranges, but he exposed my personal distress nonetheless.  I am shocked that a priest would do that simply to gain points in an argument, but one learns not to have great expectations in this life.  This is not our home and so we should not look for creature comforts.

Frankly I think John Vernosky has control issues and I challenged him for his double standard...the one he imposes on others for civil discourse but does not keep himself.  He is the one who has insisted that I never return there.  It is no loss to me.  But I think it was a combination of things and I am sorry for the times I did loose my temper but I never apologize for telling the truth as my Church has taught me over the years.

Mary

So you were also in there to try and teach them what they should believe as true Eastern Catholics In Communion With The Pope and they disagreed on what you had to say?  

Orthodoc

Make it look as ugly as you like lovie.  It is your soul, not mine.   I happen to have some understanding of what it is the Latin Church DOES teach and so when I find it being mutilated, I will correct to the best of my ability and there is NO shame in that at all.

Mary

Gee, does the pope know what an expert you are on Roman Catholic theology.  How about your martyr complex?

Orthodoc

[elijahmaria]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

It remained this way until Vatican II when the Roman Catholics of the East found the courage to demand respect for the Orthodox traditions from which they had come and Vatican II went a long way towards granting them that respect.

Of course it is a slap in the face to call those who remained as Greek Catholics submissive.    
.

My dear lady,  it is considered a very praiseworthy virtue to be submissive to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff.  This is stressed innumerable times in the canon law of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Oriental Churches, and in more encyclicals than you can shake a stick at..

The medallion struck by the Pope to commemorate the submission of the Orthodox at Brest shows the Pope seated on his throne and a Slav submissively prostrate before him.  This is just the way of it!   Don't they hand out copies of this medallion to transverts such as yourself?  

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

Send these kinds of raspberries to our bishops and monks.....   Play this at a level that isn't safe and then come back to me.

I have seen you complaining on other venues that your bishops are lickspittles for Rome.   Other well educated Eastern Catholics (including a priest or two) writing on Eastern Forums say the same things.

Mary:

Speaking of the Byzantine Catholic Forum, from your own admission you were banned from there for life!  When I used to participate, I was suspended more than once.  Usually for thirty days at a time.  But never banned for life!  Since you are the one who made it public, mind sharing with us why you received such a harsh punishment?

Orthodoc

I do not know really what caused the hardness of heart in John Vernosky.  

What I THINK started it does not bear repeating in detail.  I will give you this much.  

My spiritual father was exceptionally ill treated by a bishop.  I was irate watching my spiritual father suffer unduly and without just cause, and have to grovel to people outside of the Church just for groceries, so I began to call for the timely retirement of that bishop.  That set a number of people and priests in the diocese against me to the point where I was called at my home and harassed by them.  I had been seeking counsel with my Church for help with a vocation and I was told that my vocation was "dead in the water."  In the sense that I will ever again seek with them, they are correct.  God will provide.  There is much that is ugly in all of this and that is as much of it as I will air now.


Also I defended Catholic teaching strongly against those who would represent it falsely.  

Also I am a woman working hard in a man's world...Intellectual world.

So I was bullied as I have been bullied here.  For example Father Ambrose in an effort to best me in a discussion here has revealed something in my private life that is deeply distressing to me and that I had asked for prayers for in a semi-private forum where he was a periodic participant.  But he unloaded it here simply to make a point knowing that his comparison is apples and oranges, but he exposed my personal distress nonetheless.  I am shocked that a priest would do that simply to gain points in an argument, but one learns not to have great expectations in this life.  This is not our home and so we should not look for creature comforts.

Frankly I think John Vernosky has control issues and I challenged him for his double standard...the one he imposes on others for civil discourse but does not keep himself.  He is the one who has insisted that I never return there.  It is no loss to me.  But I think it was a combination of things and I am sorry for the times I did loose my temper but I never apologize for telling the truth as my Church has taught me over the years.

Mary

So you were also in there to try and teach them what they should believe as true Eastern Catholics In Communion With The Pope and they disagreed on what you had to say?  

Orthodoc

Make it look as ugly as you like lovie.  It is your soul, not mine.   I happen to have some understanding of what it is the Latin Church DOES teach and so when I find it being mutilated, I will correct to the best of my ability and there is NO shame in that at all.

Mary

Gee, does the pope know what an expert you are on Roman Catholic theology.  How about your martyr complex?

Orthodoc

My spiritual father knows and guides me to ever deeper understanding.  Orthodox priests, monks and a bishop or two also know what I do and guide when they have the opportunity or when I ask for guidance.  I have had seminary faculty teach me in formal classes and I have had them teach me informally when I have asked. 

There is much about me that you have no idea about and so when you do this you do it as a reproach to yourself.  It is unfortunate but there it is.

Have fun!! 

[deusveritasest]

In those days there was only the Roman Catholic Church.

Members of any Eastern rite grouping were officially known as "Roman Catholics of the Greek Rite" or "Roman Catholics of the Melkite Rite", etc.

They tended to be submissive to Rome and happy to embrace latinisation.

I don't know that the story makes sense if that is true. What reason would the bishop have had to not recognize Alexis as "Catholic" if he just towed the Roman line?

[deusveritasest]

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

The problem is that actually both you and Irish Hermit are correct. And this results in yet another instance where Eastern sui juris churches don't really respect the dogmatic tradition that they are supposed to be bound to.

[elijahmaria]

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

The problem is that actually both you and Irish Hermit are correct. And this results in yet another instance where Eastern sui juris churches don't really respect the dogmatic tradition that they are supposed to be bound to.

Many eastern Catholic priests from all the jurisdictions have gone well out of their way to move against the westernizing tide and reintroduce traditional liturgies during the early-middle and middle centuries of the 20th century.  My spiritual father was one of them and it took a good deal of persistence and willingness to struggle with his own brother clergy and with some of his flock as well.  So when the man from NZ by gross generalization tells me that Father is just another toadie...I feel compelled to correct.

[deusveritasest]

Why don't you ask some of the Byzantine priests on the Byzantine Catholic Forum?  Why don't you write to my spiritual Father and get the skinny from the horse's mouth?  Do this with them and see how far you get.

The problem is that actually both you and Irish Hermit are correct. And this results in yet another instance where Eastern sui juris churches don't really respect the dogmatic tradition that they are supposed to be bound to.

Many eastern Catholic priests from all the jurisdictions have gone well out of their way to move against the westernizing tide and reintroduce traditional liturgies during the early-middle and middle centuries of the 20th century.  My spiritual father was one of them and it took a good deal of persistence and willingness to struggle with his own brother clergy and with some of his flock as well.  So when the man from NZ by gross generalization tells me that Father is just another toadie...I feel compelled to correct.

I wasn't really commenting on that personal situation. There is no criticism of you on that level.

What I was commenting on was the general issue of submission to Rome. With regards to that, a good amount of those of the Eastern rites today appear to be questioning the dogma of papal supremacy.

[stanley123]

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.
 
Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

St. Alexis Toth does not personally persecute Christians of other denominations not have the support of the government behind him.  There is no comparison.

Wikipedia has a revealing article on him. Here is part:
"As a Uniate, Toth honored the custom that required him to visit the local Roman Catholic bishop in his new area, even though as a Ruthenian Catholic he had been given authority to serve in Minneapolis by his own prelate and did not require the Roman bishop's permission to function as a priest there. The Catholic bishop of the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis at this time was John Ireland, who was involved in attempts to "Americanize" German and other Catholic immigrants, and who desired the expulsion of all Uniate clergy from the United States. When speaking of their meeting, Toth later reported that Bishop Ireland became angry and threw Toth's priestly credentials onto his table while ardently protesting his presence in the city. Ireland even insisted that neither Toth nor his bishop were Catholic at all, in clear contradiction of the Union of Brest and Papal decrees to the contrary. Toth reported that the conversation became more heated as it progressed, with both men losing their tempers.

Ireland refused to give Toth permission to serve as a priest in Minneapolis, although such permission was not legally required under Catholic law (as Toth was Ruthenian Catholic, and thus under a separate synod of bishops from the Roman Catholic church). He furthermore ordered the Roman Catholic parishes and priests in the city not to have anything to do with Toth or his parishioners."
This is beyond outrageous. No wonder Father Toth converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

It depends. The bishops may or may not have been justified. I have encountered a number of "Eastern Catholics" nowadays who blatantly repudiate the dogmatic tradition of Rome.

I see. This is something that I did not think about. Still, I thought that according to the Brest treaty, that the Byzantine Catholics were allowed to keep their customs.

[deusveritasest]

I don't personally believe that Fr. Alexis Toth is a saint, but that does not give me permission to make such uncharitable comments about him.
 
Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat, pray for us!

St. Alexis Toth does not personally persecute Christians of other denominations not have the support of the government behind him.  There is no comparison.

Wikipedia has a revealing article on him. Here is part:
"As a Uniate, Toth honored the custom that required him to visit the local Roman Catholic bishop in his new area, even though as a Ruthenian Catholic he had been given authority to serve in Minneapolis by his own prelate and did not require the Roman bishop's permission to function as a priest there. The Catholic bishop of the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis at this time was John Ireland, who was involved in attempts to "Americanize" German and other Catholic immigrants, and who desired the expulsion of all Uniate clergy from the United States. When speaking of their meeting, Toth later reported that Bishop Ireland became angry and threw Toth's priestly credentials onto his table while ardently protesting his presence in the city. Ireland even insisted that neither Toth nor his bishop were Catholic at all, in clear contradiction of the Union of Brest and Papal decrees to the contrary. Toth reported that the conversation became more heated as it progressed, with both men losing their tempers.

Ireland refused to give Toth permission to serve as a priest in Minneapolis, although such permission was not legally required under Catholic law (as Toth was Ruthenian Catholic, and thus under a separate synod of bishops from the Roman Catholic church). He furthermore ordered the Roman Catholic parishes and priests in the city not to have anything to do with Toth or his parishioners."
This is beyond outrageous. No wonder Father Toth converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

It depends. The bishops may or may not have been justified. I have encountered a number of "Eastern Catholics" nowadays who blatantly repudiate the dogmatic tradition of Rome.

I see. This is something that I did not think about. Still, I thought that according to the Brest treaty, that the Byzantine Catholics were allowed to keep their customs.

Sure, they are. But they are not allowed to keep their dogma.

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