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Author Topic: Redemptive Suffering  (Read 8568 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2010, 02:36:10 PM »

This has NO bearing on my point which is simply to offer an example of analogous language to express the strength and direction of a relationship between humankind and the divine.

If you want to discuss your point that's fine but it adds nothing to my point.

Mary

What I did was give you an example where an Orthodox text uses the term hypostatic union as an analog for theosis.  That is what I actually did, and what I said I did and in fact the text does do that.
Hello Mary:

You did indeed give such an example. However, the hypostatic union of Theosis has been exhaustively addressed by Orthodox theologians, and has been clearly defined as a union with Divine Energies only, not a union with Divine Essence. As such, Theosis allows us to achieve only a limited personal deification, due to our inherent imperfection, but not a complete and total deification as manifested by Christ alone.

Thus, the term hypostatic union has to be understood in this context as differing in degree from the hypostatic union of human and divine natures manifested in the Incarnation of Christ.

Warm regards ~

Cosmos
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« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2010, 02:40:40 PM »

Are you tracking this discussion?

Yes.

I know you are not.  

You are mistaken.

It is analogous language.

Like Fr Ambrose--I don't see it.  

There is no need to demean people because they are not understanding your mindset.  Undecided

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« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2010, 02:40:52 PM »

This has NO bearing on my point which is simply to offer an example of analogous language to express the strength and direction of a relationship between humankind and the divine.

Understood. Thank you for the clarification.  Smiley

Cosmos
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« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2010, 02:56:43 PM »

That is a very protestant approach and besides which the Saint that I use to introduce the topic is an Orthodox saint...


That line of argumentation did not work well with you when I wanted to talk about the Quasi-Incarnation of the Spirit as taught by the Polish Saint Maximilian Kolbe and advocated by Steubenville University and some of its professors!
 laugh laugh

It seems to me that Quasi-Incarnation is much like the Orthodox claim that we are all hypostatic unions.

M.

Ummmm. What are you talking about?
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« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2010, 02:59:21 PM »

That is a very protestant approach and besides which the Saint that I use to introduce the topic is an Orthodox saint...


That line of argumentation did not work well with you when I wanted to talk about the Quasi-Incarnation of the Spirit as taught by the Polish Saint Maximilian Kolbe and advocated by Steubenville University and some of its professors!
 laugh laugh

It seems to me that Quasi-Incarnation is much like the Orthodox claim that we are all hypostatic unions.

M.

Ummmm. What are you talking about?

Analogous language
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« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2010, 03:05:00 PM »

That is a very protestant approach and besides which the Saint that I use to introduce the topic is an Orthodox saint...


That line of argumentation did not work well with you when I wanted to talk about the Quasi-Incarnation of the Spirit as taught by the Polish Saint Maximilian Kolbe and advocated by Steubenville University and some of its professors!
 laugh laugh

It seems to me that Quasi-Incarnation is much like the Orthodox claim that we are all hypostatic unions.

M.

Well, if an apparition can appear and make the somewhat surprising claim "I Am The Immaculate Conception"  I suppose some other equally odd people may claim "I am a hypostatic union." Both would be seriously wrong! 

What most Orthodox probably do not know is that apparitions continue to appear all over the world.  Quite large numbers of them in fact.  Some have received Vatican approval and others have not.   Has any appeared claiming "I am the Co-Redeemer"?

These apparitions have a direct bearing on this thread since the woman who appears nearly always stresses co-redemptive suffering.  "You must do penance for the sins of the world.  You must make reparation to my Immaculate Heart and to Jesus' heart."   This is always accompanied by some form of threat that if her wishes are not carried out God will visit the world with something quite horrible.

You keep right on laughin' Father Ambrose.

Here's one and there's loads more if you need me to go on out there and do your research for you, but it is not at all uncommon for Orthodox theology and spiritual writers to refer to theosis or deification as "hypostatic union"....NOT just the archetype in Christ but also deification in the rest of mankind!!

So scoff-on!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/general/spirituality/theosis

The Incarnation

In the East, the fact that the Word became flesh and died for us has not meant that humankind has been simply justified from God's anger, but rather has assumed an intimate and hypostatical unity with divinity itself. The essence of our redemption lies in the lifting up of human nature into the everlasting communion with the divine life which was realized by Christ's redeeming work. The whole emphasis of the Greek fathers centered around this foundational conception: the Incarnation of the Word as Redemption. The whole destiny and history of humankind was completed in the Incarnation. The Incarnation is not to be seen as a reduction of Christ's divinity but on the contrary, a lifting-up of human persons, the deification or theosis of human nature. The East has always seen the Incarnation as the union of the divine majesty with human frailty and therefore the ultimate redemptive act of God.

As it has been stated above, the Greek fathers see the Incarnation as that which begins the whole process of our redemption. But more than that, the fathers speak of the original destiny of human nature as one leading to a hypostatic union with the divine Logos in Christ - ie our deification. Christ, who as the perfect union of divine and human opened the way for our human nature to participate in the divine. For this reason many fathers interpret the Incarnation of the Logos not as a simple consequence of the fall, but as the fulfillment of the original will of God - namely that in the person of the Logos, human nature is capable of being united with the divine. The deification of Christ's human nature made possible our deification as well. In his book, Deification in Christ, Nellas wonderfully sums it up in this way: "Christ is not the result of an act of Satan. The union of the divine and human natures took place because it fulfilled the eternal will of God..... Prior to the hypostatic union of the divine nature with the human, man even before the fall was anterior to Christ, a fact which means that even then, in spite of not having sinned, man had need of salvation, since he was an imperfect and incomplete "child". This teaching lies at the core of the theology of St Irenaeus. Human nature could not have been completed simply by its tendency; it had to attain union with the Archetype. Since Christ is "the head of the body, the Church" (Col. 1.18), a fact which means in patristic thought that Christ is the head of true humanity, as long as human nature had not received the hypostasis of the Logos it was in some way without real hypostasis - it lacked real substance". Nellas implies that the deification of humanity, even if humanity had not sinned, needed the hypostatic union of the divine and human natures of Christ in the Logos.

The hypostatic union of divine and human accomplished in Christ, was the very foundation of the deification of humanity. Since Christ took on human nature and bestowed upon it the fullness of grace, he made humanity capable of ascending to God. Therefore St Athanasius could say that "God became human so that humanity may become God". It is the gift of the Incarnation which gives humanity the possibility of deification. Since the first Adam went astray and deprived himself of the gratuitous gift of union with God, the Second Adam, the divine Logos achieved this union of the two natures in his person. Therefore the Incarnation of Christ does not simply redeem humanity from the effects of the fall but completes the pre-fallen nature of humanity by deifying it. For the fathers the deification of Christ's human nature becomes the vessel by which our human nature too can be deified. This is the basis of the theology of deification which is found in the fathers. Meyendorff describes it in this way:

"The hypostatic union of divinity and humanity in Jesus Christ is the very foundation of salvation, and therefore of deification: in Christ humanity has already participated in the uncreated life of God because the 'flesh' has truly become 'the flesh of God'".

Such is the fundamental position of the Incarnation of the Word for a credible and contemporary teaching on redemption. The Incarnation of the Logos has opened to all human persons the possibility of restoring their unity with God. And the death of Christ was effective in humanity's redemption, not because it satisfied a transcendent Justice which required retribution for humanity's sins but because it was the death of the Son of God in the flesh (ie, in virtue of the hypostatic union). Fr Georges Florovsky writes that

"the death of of the Cross was effective, not as a death of an Innocent One, but as the death of the Incarnate Lord".

The Orthodox notion of redemption is clearly not simply an act to satisfy a legal requirement, but one which destroys death by his death and opens the way for our immortality. For this reason many fathers would view the mystery of the Incarnation independent of the Fall. This hypostatic, complete mingling of created and uncreated natures without division or confusion had as its immediate consequence the deification of the nature created in Christ and by extension human nature in general. And it is to this doctrine of deification that we now turn.

This does seem to have a highly generalized sense of the humanity of Christ. However, it doesn't seem to go so far as to suggest that hypostatic union with the Logos occurs individually in each of us.
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« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2010, 03:06:19 PM »

That is a very protestant approach and besides which the Saint that I use to introduce the topic is an Orthodox saint...


That line of argumentation did not work well with you when I wanted to talk about the Quasi-Incarnation of the Spirit as taught by the Polish Saint Maximilian Kolbe and advocated by Steubenville University and some of its professors!
 laugh laugh

It seems to me that Quasi-Incarnation is much like the Orthodox claim that we are all hypostatic unions.

M.

Ummmm. What are you talking about?

Analogous language

I was confused at first. I was wondering if perhaps you were speaking of the hypostatic union between soul and flesh that Cyril of Alexandria said constitutes our individual humanity. In that sense it is absolutely true that we are a hypostatic union, between our soul and our flesh.
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« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2010, 03:08:52 PM »

Yes.  Then you have my point.  Very often strong analogous language is made to draw comparisons and show strength of relationships between the human and the divine.

My attitude is that if Orthodoxy can do it, the Catholic Church should be able to show some of the same kinds of writing without being mocked or poked at as though it is some sort of strange heresy.

I would think that the idea that a human being becomes a hypostatic union with Christ is indeed a strange heresy.


Not in the second sense I established. A human being is naturally a hypostatic union between his/her flesh and his/her soul.
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« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2010, 03:11:19 PM »

To the best of my humble knowledge, the term 'hypostatic union' is used in Orthodox theology only in reference to the complete union of Christ's divine and human natures as uniquely both God and man.

No. Cyril of Alexandria explicitly referred to the unity of the flesh and soul in a human as a hypostatic union.
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« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2010, 03:13:11 PM »

Here is the sentence with the precise analogous use:

But more than that, the fathers speak of the original destiny of human nature as one leading to a hypostatic union with the divine Logos in Christ - ie our deification.

If the language is not clear enough here, I really am not sure what would be.

M.



As I pointed out, they are speaking of our human nature in a common sense, which is present in Christ, being united to the Logos, not to each of our individual instances of humanity.
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« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2010, 03:14:50 PM »

I am trying to understand what you are asking.

First, could you tell me exactly what it means for suffering to be redemptive?
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« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2010, 03:33:13 PM »

To the best of my humble knowledge, the term 'hypostatic union' is used in Orthodox theology only in reference to the complete union of Christ's divine and human natures as uniquely both God and man.

No. Cyril of Alexandria explicitly referred to the unity of the flesh and soul in a human as a hypostatic union.
Agreed. Quite so. Thank you.

I was referring to the Great Hypostatic Union of Christ's human and divine natures, not the lesser hypostatic union of our soul and flesh that each of us experiences.

Cosmos
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« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2010, 03:40:46 PM »

To the best of my humble knowledge, the term 'hypostatic union' is used in Orthodox theology only in reference to the complete union of Christ's divine and human natures as uniquely both God and man.

No. Cyril of Alexandria explicitly referred to the unity of the flesh and soul in a human as a hypostatic union.
Agreed. Quite so. Thank you.

I was referring to the Great Hypostatic Union of Christ's human and divine natures, not the lesser hypostatic union of our soul and flesh that each of us experiences.

Cosmos

Ok.  Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2010, 12:13:35 AM »

But more than that, the fathers speak of the original destiny of human nature as one leading to a hypostatic union with the divine Logos in Christ - ie our deification.

How are you interpreting this?

Huh?  Are you tracking this discussion?... laugh

I know you are not.  Neither is anyone else.
Why, you are!



Quote

It is analogous language.

No, it is not: the hypostatic union is quite literal, and the means of theosis.

Quote
So is Father Kolbe's use of the phrase quasi-Incarnation.

Quite literal: yes, we know. That's the problem with it.

Quote
It is meant to show the strength and direction of human relationships with the divine.

It is meant to make her the great exception rather than the great example.

Quote
It is not an unusual way of speaking in theological or spiritual terms for either Catholics or Orthodox.

That is my point.

Very simple.

M.

Not unusual with all those apparitions with the Vatican's approval. Quite odd for us.
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2010, 03:13:55 AM »


What I did was give you an example where an Orthodox text uses the term hypostatic union as an analog for theosis.  That is what I actually did, and what I said I did and in fact the text does do that.

I don't believe that the Australian Greek gentleman did in fact do that but I have to say it is a major relief that you have drawn back from your first contention that a human being can form a hypostatic union with Christ.  The reduction of this contention to merely "analogous language" is still misleading but not nearly as worrying as what you first seemed to be saying.

-----------

The definition of analogous in the American Heritage Dictionary: Similar or alike in such a way as to permit the drawing of an analogy.

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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2010, 09:08:08 AM »

My original contention was to illustrate analogous language.  I have said that now several times.  It is simple and I set down one example of analogous language to compare to another example. 

Perhaps rather than twisting my purpose you should deal with ialmisry above who seems to think, as many young Orthodox faithful do, that theosis is a literal hypostatic union.

Again another example of allowing internal error to flourish just to prove some baseless accusation against Catholic teaching.  Seems to be a silly way to run a faith...but once you have defined yourselves as that which is NOT Catholic, I don't see where you have many choices but to foster error in order to continue to define yourselves in the negative.

M.




What I did was give you an example where an Orthodox text uses the term hypostatic union as an analog for theosis.  That is what I actually did, and what I said I did and in fact the text does do that.

I don't believe that the Australian Greek gentleman did in fact do that but I have to say it is a major relief that you have drawn back from your first contention that a human being can form a hypostatic union with Christ.  The reduction of this contention to merely "analogous language" is still misleading but not nearly as worrying as what you first seemed to be saying.

-----------

The definition of analogous in the American Heritage Dictionary: Similar or alike in such a way as to permit the drawing of an analogy.


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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2010, 09:36:04 AM »

My original contention was to illustrate analogous language.  I have said that now several times.  It is simple and I set down one example of analogous language to compare to another example. 

Perhaps rather than twisting my purpose you should deal with ialmisry above who seems to think, as many young Orthodox faithful do, that theosis is a literal hypostatic union.

So now I join the ranks of the sources you twist.


Quote
Again another example of allowing internal error to flourish just to prove some baseless accusation against Catholic teaching.  Seems to be a silly way to run a faith...but once you have defined yourselves as that which is NOT Catholic, I don't see where you have many choices but to foster error in order to continue to define yourselves in the negative.

Since Orthodoxy defines the Catholic Church, i.e. us,  I don''t know who you are talking about.

As defining ourselves "in the negative," we do no such thing.  What we do, in face of Vatican claims other "the other lung" and other such nonsense, is say "no, we are different."



What I did was give you an example where an Orthodox text uses the term hypostatic union as an analog for theosis.  That is what I actually did, and what I said I did and in fact the text does do that.

I don't believe that the Australian Greek gentleman did in fact do that but I have to say it is a major relief that you have drawn back from your first contention that a human being can form a hypostatic union with Christ.  The reduction of this contention to merely "analogous language" is still misleading but not nearly as worrying as what you first seemed to be saying.

-----------

The definition of analogous in the American Heritage Dictionary: Similar or alike in such a way as to permit the drawing of an analogy.


[/quote]
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2010, 10:46:15 AM »

Here is another example of hypostatic union being used analogously:

The Council's position is a natural corollary to the earlier Chalcedonian proclamation of the divine and human natures co-existent in Christ, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation..."  Since we are called to a similar hypostatic union in Theosis, our will in this world, our action in this world is not be at the mercy of God's will, but to cooperate with it.  The principal of synergy. We cannot passively allow evil to win.  We must act.  In a fallen world, that action will, at times, entail direct, physical confrontation.  At times that means we must fight and even kill.  The reason for the killing is altogether different however.  Evil kills for the sheer joy of killing, to spread discord, terror and confusion.  The confronter of evil kills as a last resort and only because of the continued resistance of the evil doer.  Not unlike Christ's judgment of us.  We are consigned to hell only because of our obstinate refusal to repent.
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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2010, 11:06:10 AM »

Here is another example of hypostatic union being used analogously:

The Council's position is a natural corollary to the earlier Chalcedonian proclamation of the divine and human natures co-existent in Christ, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation..."  Since we are called to a similar hypostatic union in Theosis, our will in this world, our action in this world is not be at the mercy of God's will, but to cooperate with it.  The principal of synergy. We cannot passively allow evil to win.  We must act.  In a fallen world, that action will, at times, entail direct, physical confrontation.  At times that means we must fight and even kill.  The reason for the killing is altogether different however.  Evil kills for the sheer joy of killing, to spread discord, terror and confusion.  The confronter of evil kills as a last resort and only because of the continued resistance of the evil doer.  Not unlike Christ's judgment of us.  We are consigned to hell only because of our obstinate refusal to repent.

Good grief!  Do these people get together for a drink after work on Friday nights and dream up unheard of theology!  It is rank heresy to teach that a human being may form any sort of hypostatic union with any one of the Trinity.  The hypostatic union of Christ Himself comprises the fulness of His humanity and the fulness of His divinity in its essence and its energies.  A man cannot achieve a hypostatic unity with the divine essence.  With Chrismation the Holy Spirit takes up His abode in us and we become His living temples but He des not form a hypostatic union with us.  Neither does Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity.
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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2010, 11:13:04 AM »

Here is another example of hypostatic union being used analogously:

The Council's position is a natural corollary to the earlier Chalcedonian proclamation of the divine and human natures co-existent in Christ, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation..."  Since we are called to a similar hypostatic union in Theosis, our will in this world, our action in this world is not be at the mercy of God's will, but to cooperate with it.  The principal of synergy. We cannot passively allow evil to win.  We must act.  In a fallen world, that action will, at times, entail direct, physical confrontation.  At times that means we must fight and even kill.  The reason for the killing is altogether different however.  Evil kills for the sheer joy of killing, to spread discord, terror and confusion.  The confronter of evil kills as a last resort and only because of the continued resistance of the evil doer.  Not unlike Christ's judgment of us.  We are consigned to hell only because of our obstinate refusal to repent.

May we ask if this is the doctrine of the Eastern Catholic Churches?  Is a kind of hybrid being created when a hypostatic union is created, composed of a human being and the God-Man Jesus Christ?  Presumably it would be a trithelite entity, with the two wills of Christ and the third will of the human?    How is the fact of sin handled in this entity - presumably because of the hypostatic union of the human and Christ, Christ partakes of the sins of the human hypostasis?
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« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2010, 11:17:25 AM »

As I said these are only examples of analogous language.  I do not believe any of the authors of the examples that I might present here would say that what they are referencing is the literal equivalent of Christ's hypostatic union.  I am simply presenting these things to demonstrate that Orthodoxy has its own share of analogous references.  It is not an uncommon thing to do when speaking theologically.

Mary

Here is another example of hypostatic union being used analogously:

The Council's position is a natural corollary to the earlier Chalcedonian proclamation of the divine and human natures co-existent in Christ, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation..."  Since we are called to a similar hypostatic union in Theosis, our will in this world, our action in this world is not be at the mercy of God's will, but to cooperate with it.  The principal of synergy. We cannot passively allow evil to win.  We must act.  In a fallen world, that action will, at times, entail direct, physical confrontation.  At times that means we must fight and even kill.  The reason for the killing is altogether different however.  Evil kills for the sheer joy of killing, to spread discord, terror and confusion.  The confronter of evil kills as a last resort and only because of the continued resistance of the evil doer.  Not unlike Christ's judgment of us.  We are consigned to hell only because of our obstinate refusal to repent.

Good grief!  Do these people get together for a drink after work on Friday nights and dream up unheard of theology!  It is rank heresy to teach that a human being may form any sort of hypostatic union with any one of the Trinity.  The hypostatic union of Christ Himself comprises the fulness of His humanity and the fulness of His divinity in its essence and its energies.  A man cannot achieve a hypostatic unity with the divine essence.  With Chrismation the Holy Spirit takes up His abode in us and we become His living temples but He des not form a hypostatic union with us.  Neither does Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity.
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« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2010, 11:23:29 AM »

These are all Orthodox sources.  I've never seen this kind of analogous language used in any Eastern Catholic source to date.

M.

Here is another example of hypostatic union being used analogously:

The Council's position is a natural corollary to the earlier Chalcedonian proclamation of the divine and human natures co-existent in Christ, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation..."  Since we are called to a similar hypostatic union in Theosis, our will in this world, our action in this world is not be at the mercy of God's will, but to cooperate with it.  The principal of synergy. We cannot passively allow evil to win.  We must act.  In a fallen world, that action will, at times, entail direct, physical confrontation.  At times that means we must fight and even kill.  The reason for the killing is altogether different however.  Evil kills for the sheer joy of killing, to spread discord, terror and confusion.  The confronter of evil kills as a last resort and only because of the continued resistance of the evil doer.  Not unlike Christ's judgment of us.  We are consigned to hell only because of our obstinate refusal to repent.

May we ask if this is the doctrine of the Eastern Catholic Churches?  Is a kind of hybrid being created when a hypostatic union is created, composed of a human being and the God-Man Jesus Christ?  Presumably it would be a trithelite entity, with the two wills of Christ and the third will of the human?    How is the fact of sin handled in this entity - presumably because of the hypostatic union of the human and Christ, Christ partakes of the sins of the human hypostasis?
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« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2010, 11:41:52 AM »


These are all Orthodox sources.

Well, two laymen, to be exact rather than "all Orthodox sources" and two laymen whom we have never heard of!

Quote
 I've never seen this kind of analogous language used in any Eastern Catholic source to date.

And that proves my point that it is a piece of modern idiocy.  If it belonged in our Tradition it would be found among the Eastern Catholics also.


Here is another example of hypostatic union being used analogously:

The Council's position is a natural corollary to the earlier Chalcedonian proclamation of the divine and human natures co-existent in Christ, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation..."  Since we are called to a similar hypostatic union in Theosis, our will in this world, our action in this world is not be at the mercy of God's will, but to cooperate with it.  The principal of synergy. We cannot passively allow evil to win.  We must act.  In a fallen world, that action will, at times, entail direct, physical confrontation.  At times that means we must fight and even kill.  The reason for the killing is altogether different however.  Evil kills for the sheer joy of killing, to spread discord, terror and confusion.  The confronter of evil kills as a last resort and only because of the continued resistance of the evil doer.  Not unlike Christ's judgment of us.  We are consigned to hell only because of our obstinate refusal to repent.

May we ask if this is the doctrine of the Eastern Catholic Churches?  Is a kind of hybrid being created when a hypostatic union is created, composed of a human being and the God-Man Jesus Christ?  Presumably it would be a trithelite entity, with the two wills of Christ and the third will of the human?    How is the fact of sin handled in this entity - presumably because of the hypostatic union of the human and Christ, Christ partakes of the sins of the human hypostasis?
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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2010, 11:50:50 AM »


 I am simply presenting these things to demonstrate that Orthodoxy has its own share of analogous references. 


That's really stretching it, Mary.  You have found TWO statements from a couple of laymen of whom nobody has heard.... presenting a teaching of which nobody has heard. 

I find it hard to believe that my bishop is going to pop up and say to the clergy: "Look, Bauman and Kariatlis have discovered an Orthodox teaching of which we were not previously aware.  We'd better start preaching a few sermons on it and I'll see about including it in seminary courses."   laugh
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« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2010, 11:54:06 AM »

Actually Father, the first example was on a theological teaching page from a Greek Orthodox diocese.  So it carries a bit more gravitas that just another layman yappin'

Also this is all beside the point since my only point is that analogous language and referents are readily found in Orthodoxy.

Mary


 I am simply presenting these things to demonstrate that Orthodoxy has its own share of analogous references. 


That's really stretching it, Mary.  You have found TWO statements from a couple of laymen of whom nobody has heard.... presenting a teaching of which nobody has heard. 

I find it hard to believe that my bishop is going to pop up and say to the clergy: "Look, Bauman and Kariatlis have discovered an Orthodox teaching of which we were not previously aware.  We'd better start preaching a few sermons on it and I'll see about including it in seminary courses."   laugh
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2010, 12:03:06 PM »


Actually Father, the first example was on a theological teaching page from a Greek Orthodox diocese.  So it carries a bit more gravitas that just another layman yappin'

Right!  So someone should alert the Greek Archbishop of Australia that whoever screens what is published on the archdiocesan website is being negligent and allowing unheard of teachings to appear.  Speculative theology may have its place but not on such sites and sowing confusion.
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2010, 12:08:49 PM »

Well...I cannot speak for the GO bishop of Oz but I think that I might say, if it were mine to say, that it is used and understood analogously and not really a problem.

M.


Actually Father, the first example was on a theological teaching page from a Greek Orthodox diocese.  So it carries a bit more gravitas that just another layman yappin'

Right!  So someone should alert the Greek Archbishop of Australia that whoever screens what is published on the archdiocesan website is being negligent and allowing unheard of teachings to appear.  Speculative theology may have its place but not on such sites and sowing confusion.
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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2010, 12:16:16 PM »

The concept of humans becoming totally immersed in God as One spiritually is more akin to the theology of certain Eastern religions like Hinduism in which this idea is referred to as Nirvikalpa Samadhi. This concept has always been foreign to Orthodox spirituality and theology.

Cosmos
Most Hindus don't believe in the idea of being "totally immersed in God". That idea is held mostly by the Advaita tradition, and even in Advaita, one doesn't "become" one with God -- one instead realizes one's 'non-difference' from God.
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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2010, 12:41:12 PM »

My brothers and sisters:

All of this haggling over semantics accomplishes little or nothing for any of us spiritually.  Undecided

The concepts of hypostatic union and Theosis have been exhaustively defined in Orthodox writings through the history of the Church to date, and are thus presumed to be understood accordingly by the authors of those works. From a traditional Orthodox perspective, therefore, the accepted definitions are theologically sound, and are not open for redefining according to individual interpretation.

With all due respect for all parties in this discussion, I have previously offered links to resources which clearly define the accepted meaning of these two terms in Orthodox theology, and many other supporting resources are easily accessed online today, so there is really no appropriate reason to use them in a different context as "analogous language" in support of divergent interpretations, in my humble opinion.

Cosmos
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« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2010, 12:58:03 PM »

Jetavan:

In the Advaita Vedanta school of Hinduism, Nirvikalpa Samādhi is generally defined as a total absorption in the Universal Divine Presence, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without self-consciousness. As such, it represents a complete merging of individual mental activity (cittavṛtti) in the Divine Self to such a degree, or in such a way, that all distinction of admitting any alternative to this spiritual state is thoroughly dissolved.

All dualistic sense of separation between the knower, the act of knowing, and that which is known vanishes. All segregation between self and others, including any sense of separation between self and God, completely disappears, resulting in the equivalent of a full hypostatic union of the individual with God. This concept is clearly not what Orthodox Christianity defines the personal deification of Theosis to be.

That having been said, I don't want to derail this thread with further discussion of Eastern religious thought. Thank you.

Cosmos

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« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2010, 01:04:25 PM »

My brothers and sisters:

All of this haggling over semantics accomplishes little or nothing for any of us spiritually.  Undecided

The concepts of hypostatic union and Theosis have been exhaustively defined in Orthodox writings through the history of the Church to date, and are thus presumed to be understood accordingly by the authors of those works. From a traditional Orthodox perspective, therefore, the accepted definitions are theologically sound, and are not open for redefining according to individual interpretation.

With all due respect for all parties in this discussion, I have previously offered links to resources which clearly define the accepted meaning of these two terms in Orthodox theology, and many other supporting resources are easily accessed online today, so there is really no appropriate reason to use them in a different context as "analogous language" in support of divergent interpretations, in my humble opinion.

Dear Father,

Both Mary and I know summit about the hypostatic union and I remember the good old days when she and I linked forces and rode to battle on our warhorses to demolish the heretical (should we be kind and just say mistaken) convert clergy on Orthodox-Forum who denied that Christ was present in the Sacred Mysteries with His soul and His divinity.  They argued from a kind of sola scriptura angle.  We made good use of the teaching of the Lord's hypostatic union and the Council of Chalcedon to destroy the folly of these impious clerics.
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« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2010, 01:05:42 PM »

I was not aware that identifying analogous usage was haggling over semantics.

So far nothing I've presented has any bearing on divergences in meaning.  They are simply presented as examples of the analogous forms of language usage.

M.


My brothers and sisters:

All of this haggling over semantics accomplishes little or nothing for any of us spiritually.  Undecided

The concepts of hypostatic union and Theosis have been exhaustively defined in Orthodox writings through the history of the Church to date, and are thus presumed to be understood accordingly by the authors of those works. From a traditional Orthodox perspective, therefore, the accepted definitions are theologically sound, and are not open for redefining according to individual interpretation.

With all due respect for all parties in this discussion, I have previously offered links to resources which clearly define the accepted meaning of these two terms in Orthodox theology, and many other supporting resources are easily accessed online today, so there is really no appropriate reason to use them in a different context as "analogous language" in support of divergent interpretations, in my humble opinion.

Cosmos
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« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2010, 01:07:05 PM »

My brothers and sisters:

All of this haggling over semantics accomplishes little or nothing for any of us spiritually.  Undecided

The concepts of hypostatic union and Theosis have been exhaustively defined in Orthodox writings through the history of the Church to date, and are thus presumed to be understood accordingly by the authors of those works. From a traditional Orthodox perspective, therefore, the accepted definitions are theologically sound, and are not open for redefining according to individual interpretation.

With all due respect for all parties in this discussion, I have previously offered links to resources which clearly define the accepted meaning of these two terms in Orthodox theology, and many other supporting resources are easily accessed online today, so there is really no appropriate reason to use them in a different context as "analogous language" in support of divergent interpretations, in my humble opinion.

Dear Father,

Both Mary and I know summit about the hypostatic union and I remember the good old days when she and I linked forces and rode to battle on our warhorses to demolish the heretical (should we be kind and just say mistaken) convert clergy on Orthodox-Forum who denied that Christ was present in the Sacred Mysteries with His soul and His divinity.  They argued from a kind of sola scriptura angle.  We made good use of the teaching of the Lord's hypostatic union and the Council of Chalcedon to destroy the folly of these impious clerics.

Sadly we lost those battles.  Perhaps the war is not lost however  Smiley

M.
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« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2010, 01:17:17 PM »

I was not aware that identifying analogous usage was haggling over semantics.

So far nothing I've presented has any bearing on divergences in meaning.  They are simply presented as examples of the analogous forms of language usage.

Very well. What purpose exactly, if not merely haggling over semantics, does your continued insistence on pressing the issue of "analogous forms of language usage" serve then?  Huh

If the analogy drawn is one which implies or overtly states a different nuance of meaning, which I believe you have done, then it isn't a good analogy, IMO.  Undecided

Cosmos
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« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2010, 01:17:30 PM »

Dear Father,

Both Mary and I know summit about the hypostatic union and I remember the good old days when she and I linked forces and rode to battle on our warhorses to demolish the heretical (should we be kind and just say mistaken) convert clergy on Orthodox-Forum who denied that Christ was present in the Sacred Mysteries with His soul and His divinity.  They argued from a kind of sola scriptura angle.  We made good use of the teaching of the Lord's hypostatic union and the Council of Chalcedon to destroy the folly of these impious clerics.

Sadly we lost those battles.  Perhaps the war is not lost however  Smiley

I see that the posts are all still there in the archives under the subject of Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity   Dozens of posts - what a fierce battle.  laugh
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« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2010, 01:37:15 PM »

A loooong time ago in the thread Father poked fun at a Catholic lay-person's use of analogous language with respect to the Incarnation, and I suggested that the same thing happens in Orthodoxy regarding theosis and the hypostatic union...

I was roundly hooted down...

And here we are.

Apparently there are Orthodox laymen and also dioceses who use analogous language regarding theosis and the hypostatic union, so I am not nearly as stoopid as a look  Cheesy.

They are not the only examples but they are the ones I was able to find most readily on the Internet.

M.

I was not aware that identifying analogous usage was haggling over semantics.

So far nothing I've presented has any bearing on divergences in meaning.  They are simply presented as examples of the analogous forms of language usage.

Very well. What purpose exactly, if not merely haggling over semantics, does your continued insistence on pressing the issue of "analogous forms of language usage" serve then?  Huh

If the analogy drawn is one which implies or overtly states a different nuance of meaning, which I believe you have done, then it isn't a good analogy, IMO.  Undecided

Cosmos
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« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2010, 01:39:05 PM »

Dear Father,

Both Mary and I know summit about the hypostatic union and I remember the good old days when she and I linked forces and rode to battle on our warhorses to demolish the heretical (should we be kind and just say mistaken) convert clergy on Orthodox-Forum who denied that Christ was present in the Sacred Mysteries with His soul and His divinity.  They argued from a kind of sola scriptura angle.  We made good use of the teaching of the Lord's hypostatic union and the Council of Chalcedon to destroy the folly of these impious clerics.

Sadly we lost those battles.  Perhaps the war is not lost however  Smiley

I see that the posts are all still there in the archives under the subject of Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity   Dozens of posts - what a fierce battle.  laugh


Yes.  To the credit of the owner/moderators they were not removed.

M.
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« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2010, 01:45:26 PM »

I was not aware that identifying analogous usage was haggling over semantics.

So far nothing I've presented has any bearing on divergences in meaning.  They are simply presented as examples of the analogous forms of language usage.

Very well. What purpose exactly, if not merely haggling over semantics, does your continued insistence on pressing the issue of "analogous forms of language usage" serve then?  Huh

If the analogy drawn is one which implies or overtly states a different nuance of meaning, which I believe you have done, then it isn't a good analogy, IMO.  Undecided

Cosmos

To be honest with you I believe that one of the more recent texts that I think encourages this parallel construction between the hypostases of ordinary humans and the hypostasis of Christ is  The Person in Orthodox Tradition.  Now please...I am not suggesting that Metropolitan Hierotheos uses the exact phrase "hypostatic union" in relationship to theosis, but he does define at great length how the prosperon becomes hypostasis and says that human beings do not develop as hypostasis until they come into union with the divine energies.

I think that this particular text has a great deal of influence on some of the young scholars in Orthodoxy who seem to be more prone to using that kind of analog than anyone else I've encountered.

I really just lucked out finding it on the Australian GO diocesan page.  I thought that might carry more weight than a MDiv candidate on a blog somewhere.

So that is essentially a more sober look at what I was referring to earlier.

Mary
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« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2010, 03:23:14 PM »

To be honest with you I believe that one of the more recent texts that I think encourages this parallel construction between the hypostases of ordinary humans and the hypostasis of Christ is The Person in Orthodox Tradition.  Now please...I am not suggesting that Metropolitan Hierotheos uses the exact phrase "hypostatic union" in relationship to theosis, but he does define at great length how the prosperon becomes hypostasis and says that human beings do not develop as hypostasis until they come into union with the divine energies.

Mary:

Thank you for the clarification. This statement..."human beings do not develop as hypostasis until they come into union with the divine energies", is exactly right, and in keeping with the theological definition of Theosis as personal deification through "union with the divine energies", not union as One with God's Divine Essence, which Christ alone represents as fully God and fully man both.

Nice job of sorting that all out!  Cool

Cosmos  Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2010, 03:35:57 PM »

To be honest with you I believe that one of the more recent texts that I think encourages this parallel construction between the hypostases of ordinary humans and the hypostasis of Christ is The Person in Orthodox Tradition.  Now please...I am not suggesting that Metropolitan Hierotheos uses the exact phrase "hypostatic union" in relationship to theosis, but he does define at great length how the prosperon becomes hypostasis and says that human beings do not develop as hypostasis until they come into union with the divine energies.

Mary:

Thank you for the clarification. This statement..."human beings do not develop as hypostasis until they come into union with the divine energies", is exactly right, and in keeping with the theological definition of Theosis as personal deification through "union with the divine energies", not union as One with God's Divine Essence, which Christ alone represents as fully God and fully man both.

Nice job of sorting that all out!  Cool

Cosmos  Smiley


Question:  Is it even accurate to speak of the Christ being one in union with the divine essence, as essence is defined in either the east or the west?  Is it not Orthodoxy that encourages one to say that the divinity is beyond being?

Also if the human being is not truly a person until they achieve theosis, or come into union with the divine energies, what does that do to moral precepts concerning such things as abortion?

M.
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« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2010, 06:38:24 PM »


Apparently there are Orthodox laymen and also dioceses who use analogous language regarding theosis and the hypostatic union, so I am not nearly as stoopid as a look  Cheesy.

They are not the only examples but they are the ones I was able to find most readily on the Internet.


It is heresy to say that a human may become a hypostatic union with divinity.

You have presented a mere TWO examples from a couple of completely unknown laymen.  Neither of them gives one passage from any Church Council or any Church Father to support their unheard of contention. 

I believe you have access to Orthodox hierarchs?  Ask them.  Are you acquainted with any seminary professors?  Ask them.  If you have any pull, get the matter placed on the agenda for the forthcoming Great and Holy Council; I am sure they are casting around for new doctrines which will make the Council momentous.   laugh
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« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2010, 06:42:18 PM »

Analogous language.  Not literal one to one equivalency.

heh....

Analogous language.  Not literal one to one equivalency

heh....

.... Grin


Apparently there are Orthodox laymen and also dioceses who use analogous language regarding theosis and the hypostatic union, so I am not nearly as stoopid as a look  Cheesy.

They are not the only examples but they are the ones I was able to find most readily on the Internet.


It is heresy to say that a human may become a hypostatic union with divinity.

You have presented a mere TWO examples from a couple of completely unknown laymen.  Neither of them gives one passage from any Church Council or any Church Father to support their unheard of contention. 

I believe you have access to Orthodox hierarchs?  Ask them.  Are you acquainted with any seminary professors?  Ask them.  If you have any pull, get the matter placed on the agenda for the forthcoming Great and Holy Council; I am sure they are casting around for new doctrines which will make the Council momentous.   laugh
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« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2010, 07:20:41 PM »

Analogous language.  Not literal one to one equivalency.

heh....

Analogous language.  Not literal one to one equivalency

heh....

.... Grin

Sorry but that won't wash.  You are now chanting the mantra of "analogous language" and my head is aching from it.  But the two websites you have offered do not explain it so.  *You* have imposed this view of "analogous language" on the two writers.



Apparently there are Orthodox laymen and also dioceses who use analogous language regarding theosis and the hypostatic union, so I am not nearly as stoopid as a look  Cheesy.

They are not the only examples but they are the ones I was able to find most readily on the Internet.


It is heresy to say that a human may become a hypostatic union with divinity.

You have presented a mere TWO examples from a couple of completely unknown laymen.  Neither of them gives one passage from any Church Council or any Church Father to support their unheard of contention. 

I believe you have access to Orthodox hierarchs?  Ask them.  Are you acquainted with any seminary professors?  Ask them.  If you have any pull, get the matter placed on the agenda for the forthcoming Great and Holy Council; I am sure they are casting around for new doctrines which will make the Council momentous.   laugh
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« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2010, 09:49:14 PM »

Here is another example of hypostatic union being used analogously:

The Council's position is a natural corollary to the earlier Chalcedonian proclamation of the divine and human natures co-existent in Christ, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation..."  Since we are called to a similar hypostatic union in Theosis, our will in this world, our action in this world is not be at the mercy of God's will, but to cooperate with it.  The principal of synergy. We cannot passively allow evil to win.  We must act.  In a fallen world, that action will, at times, entail direct, physical confrontation.  At times that means we must fight and even kill.  The reason for the killing is altogether different however.  Evil kills for the sheer joy of killing, to spread discord, terror and confusion.  The confronter of evil kills as a last resort and only because of the continued resistance of the evil doer.  Not unlike Christ's judgment of us.  We are consigned to hell only because of our obstinate refusal to repent.

Since you cite no reference, I must conclude that these are your words.
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« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2010, 10:01:28 PM »

Here is another example of hypostatic union being used analogously:

The Council's position is a natural corollary to the earlier Chalcedonian proclamation of the divine and human natures co-existent in Christ, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation..."  Since we are called to a similar hypostatic union in Theosis, our will in this world, our action in this world is not be at the mercy of God's will, but to cooperate with it.  The principal of synergy. We cannot passively allow evil to win.  We must act.  In a fallen world, that action will, at times, entail direct, physical confrontation.  At times that means we must fight and even kill.  The reason for the killing is altogether different however.  Evil kills for the sheer joy of killing, to spread discord, terror and confusion.  The confronter of evil kills as a last resort and only because of the continued resistance of the evil doer.  Not unlike Christ's judgment of us.  We are consigned to hell only because of our obstinate refusal to repent.

Since you cite no reference, I must conclude that these are your words.

I thought I had attached the url with it.  I generally do:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/ResponsesOPFArticle.shtml
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