Topic: Days of Obligation

[Rosehip]

I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'

Offensive  ?
That's how the peasants among I grew up lived. I never heard them talk about "loving God", but I've heard them often talk about "fearing God".
And of course most things were done with a thought at what the neighbours/other villagers might say or think of. Avoiding to give occasion for gossip is very important in a village. And they were thoroughly Eastern Christians. They never read books about "Eastern theology", that's true, as well.

But isn't that really living in the fear of man, rather than the fear of God, if we are always worrying about what the neighbours think of us?

I don't think one needs to read any books whatsoever about 'eastern theology" to know these things, and to understand the happy balance between loving and fearing God. The gospels are simple to read, and available to all.

[Papist]

It is not something written in the catechism, but is a very strong, and socially sanctioned tradition.
One would observe these days partly out of fear of God (ensure good luck, health, abundant crops, ensure good weather), partly out of social conformity (avoid being gossiped about and judged by neighbours etc).

I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'.

I've always considered and understood attendance at liturgical services on the Great or Solemn Feasts to be done for love of God - not fear of Him.

Do you really believe that the Slavic Eastern Catholic and Orthodox miners in Jacob's Creek, PA whose lives were spared on the Old Calendar Feast of St Nicholas (or, for that matter, the Italian Latin Catholic ones in Monongah, WV, likewise spared two weeks earlier, on the New Calendar feast of the same Saint) acted from fear of God when they gave up a day's pay to attend liturgy - in an era when doing so was an incredible sacrifice. One thinks not.  

Many years,

Neil

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" - Psalm 111:10

[Mickey]

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" - Psalm 111:10

Do you think that the word "fear" is referring to the state of being "afraid" or "scared"?

[Papist]

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" - Psalm 111:10

Do you think that the word "fear" is referring to the state of being "afraid" or "scared"?

Its probably not that simple. I think its the sense of awe and fear that the Israelites felt when they were in the desert and realized that mountain that was ablaze was on fire because of the presence of the LORD. They would not approach because they feared that they would die. God was pleased with their attitude of revernce. But this does not mean that the Israelites did not know that God loved them. But they also recognized his awesomeness.

[Irish Melkite]

I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'.

I've always considered and understood attendance at liturgical services on the Great or Solemn Feasts to be done for love of God - not fear of Him.

Do you really believe that the Slavic Eastern Catholic and Orthodox miners in Jacob's Creek, PA whose lives were spared on the Old Calendar Feast of St Nicholas (or, for that matter, the Italian Latin Catholic ones in Monongah, WV, likewise spared two weeks earlier, on the New Calendar feast of the same Saint) acted from fear of God when they gave up a day's pay to attend liturgy - in an era when doing so was an incredible sacrifice. One thinks not.  

Yes. 

Mickey, my brother,

'yes' - you agree with me? or 'yes' , you believe they acted out of fear?

Many years,

Neil

[Mickey]

Mickey, my brother,

'yes' - you agree with me? or 'yes' , you believe they acted out of fear?

Yes, I agree with you.

[Mickey]

Its probably not that simple. I think its the sense of awe and fear that the Israelites felt when they were in the desert and realized that mountain that was ablaze was on fire because of the presence of the LORD. They would not approach because they feared that they would die. God was pleased with their attitude of revernce. But this does not mean that the Israelites did not know that God loved them. But they also recognized his awesomeness.

You skirted the question.  Do you ever interpret "fear" to be synonymous with "being afraid" of God?

[Schultz]

No, he didn't.  He answered your question pretty honestly and directly.

You're asking him a different one, now.

[Papist]

Its probably not that simple. I think its the sense of awe and fear that the Israelites felt when they were in the desert and realized that mountain that was ablaze was on fire because of the presence of the LORD. They would not approach because they feared that they would die. God was pleased with their attitude of revernce. But this does not mean that the Israelites did not know that God loved them. But they also recognized his awesomeness.

You skirted the question.  Do you ever interpret "fear" to be synonymous with "being afraid" of God?

No I didn't. I said that it's more complicated than your question suggests. It is indeed a certain kind of fear, but a kind of fear that is associated with the recognition of awesomeness and not a fear that God wants us to destroy us or is against us. A fear that God is out to get us would not be Christian at all. Perfect love casts out such fear.

[Mickey]

No, he didn't.  He answered your question pretty honestly and directly.

You're asking him a different one, now.

I beg your pardon Mr moderator--let me clarify.

Original question: Do you think that the word "fear" is referring to the state of being "afraid" or "scared"?

After he talked around it--I rephrased it.

Rephrased:  Do you ever interpret "fear" to be synonymous with "being afraid" of God?

[Mickey]

It is indeed a certain kind of fear, but a kind of fear that is associated with the recognition of awesomeness and not a fear that God wants us to destroy us or is against us.

So there is no state of "being afraid of" or "scared of" God?  Correct?

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

From Biblical accounts and the writings of the Early Fathers, we see that the Holy Eucharist was celebrated weekly.

Have you ever read the book: "Concerning Frequent Communion" by Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite?  It is excellent!

I just read an excerpt and it was excellent. I especially like Saint Nikodemos' quotation of several famous Orthodox saints, all of whom extolled frequent communion. My primary inspiration, however, is Father Alexander Schmemann whose words on frequent communion I think were inspired by the Holy Spirit. They were not different in their substance than the earlier theologians and saints of the Church but they were so wonderfully and clearly phrased that they resonated in me and convinced me that it is indeed the Lord's will that we do take communion frequently.

[Schultz]

No, he didn't.  He answered your question pretty honestly and directly.

You're asking him a different one, now.

I beg your pardon Mr moderator--let me clarify.

Original question: Do you think that the word "fear" is referring to the state of being "afraid" or "scared"?

After he talked around it--I rephrased it.

Rephrased:  Do you ever interpret "fear" to be synonymous with "being afraid" of God?

Firstly, I'm not posting as a moderator.  For the umpteenth time, unless it's in green, I'm posting as a poster.  

I just found your insinuation that Papist is being disingenuous to be, well, disingenuous.  He answered your question how you put it and, instead of just clarifying your question, you felt the need to craft your post in such a manner to make him look like he's avoiding your original question in the way you initially phrased it.

Such rhetoric should be beneath all of us, and I'm just tired of seeing here on OC.net as a poster, especially in the Orthodox-Catholic forum.  

[Mickey]

He answered your question how you put it and, instead of just clarifying your question, you felt the need to craft your post in such a manner to make him look like he's avoiding your original question in the way you initially phrased it.

I truly felt he avoided a direct answer. It was not my intention to be disingenuous. I am sorry you feel that way.

Such rhetoric should be beneath all of us, and I'm just tired of seeing here on OC.net as a poster, especially in the Orthodox-Catholic forum.  

I think you are over reacting and misinterpreting my intentions--and frankly I am tired of seeing this kind of judgementalism here at OC.net.

I will tell you what I was trying to get at---before you decided to reprimand me.

I was raised and taught in a Latin Catholic era, which kind of perpetuated an atmosphere of fear---not a fear which eminates from love, reverence, and awe---but a fear of being condemned by an angry God.  When I hear the term “day of obligation” it brings back this kind of memory to me. True fear is not terror, but awe and reverence in the presence of absolute beauty and grace.

I am going to remove myself from this forum now.

Blessings to all!

[stashko]

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell..  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Because they have the power....Yea Right...

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  

[elijahmaria]

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell..  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Because they have the power....Yea Right...

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  

Any person who sins knowingly and does so in direct disobedience to God's laws and dies unshriven runs the grave risk of ending up unrepentant on the wrong side of the Father.  What can the Father do short of forcing someone to be obedient?

Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as a sin by which we condemn ourselves?  Sounds like it.

Makes the life of the Spirit something of a bad joke if that is what you are suggesting.

M.

[WetCatechumen]

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell..  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Because they have the power....Yea Right...

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

[Papist]

It is indeed a certain kind of fear, but a kind of fear that is associated with the recognition of awesomeness and not a fear that God wants us to destroy us or is against us.

So there is no state of "being afraid of" or "scared of" God?  Correct?

Well, we should be afraid of the fact that if we do not serve God, we will end our lives in his judgement rather than in his mercy.
BUT,
We should approach the throne of grace with confidence, knowing that God is a loving Father and does everying in our lives with our salvation in mind.

[stashko]

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell..  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Because they have the power....Yea Right...

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God.......

[stashko]

I Listened to Serbian Orthodox Priest Give a sermon ,On being Tardy For Holy liturgy ,Coming at different times...He said the Church is the House of God ,the lord being the Host sending out invitations,Hosting a banqued at his house ,why offend the host of the banquet by being late...

He associated attending the house of God with a Human Host  giving a party Banquet, sending invitation to the guests some come on time, some later ,the ones that came later sort of offended the host of the banquet...He never attached a mortal or venial sin to it though.... maybe better late than never he had in mind...  

[WetCatechumen]

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell..  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Because they have the power....Yea Right...

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God.......

Nevertheless, the orthodox pastor of this parish calls missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays a mortal sin. Is he in error to do so?

[PeterTheAleut]

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell..  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Because they have the power....Yea Right...

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God.......

Nevertheless, the orthodox pastor of this parish calls missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays a mortal sin. Is he in error to do so?

I don't know.  I am aware, though, that the mortal sin vs. venial sin distinction is foreign to Orthodoxy, which means that, even if this priest is not teaching error, he is at least teaching a concept he likely borrowed from a heterodox tradition.

[WetCatechumen]

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell..  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Because they have the power....Yea Right...

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God.......

Nevertheless, the orthodox pastor of this parish calls missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays a mortal sin. Is he in error to do so?

I don't know.  I am aware, though, that the mortal sin vs. venial sin distinction is foreign to Orthodoxy, which means that, even if this priest is not teaching error, he is at least teaching a concept he likely borrowed from a heterodox tradition.

Nevertheless, he still finds it highly important for Orthodox Christians to attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday. If he is not teaching error, then why do we Westerners get ripped upon for using the word "obligation"? If we love God, we are obligated to celebrate the sacraments regularly. It should be done with joy and devotion, but I do not see why it would be incorrect for it to be described as sinful for us to neglect to celebrate the sacraments. This particular priest has done so publicly with no correction from his bishop.

[PeterTheAleut]

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell..  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Because they have the power....Yea Right...

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God.......

Nevertheless, the orthodox pastor of this parish calls missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays a mortal sin. Is he in error to do so?

I don't know.  I am aware, though, that the mortal sin vs. venial sin distinction is foreign to Orthodoxy, which means that, even if this priest is not teaching error, he is at least teaching a concept he likely borrowed from a heterodox tradition.

Nevertheless, he still finds it highly important for Orthodox Christians to attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday. If he is not teaching error, then why do we Westerners get ripped upon for using the word "obligation"? If we love God, we are obligated to celebrate the sacraments regularly. It should be done with joy and devotion, but I do not see why it would be incorrect for it to be described as sinful for us to neglect to celebrate the sacraments. This particular priest has done so publicly with no correction from his bishop.

Even if the Orthodox don't use such language as "day of obligation", such that some even find the phrase offensive for the legalistic images it brings to their minds, I think it fair to say that the Orthodox Church does place a very high value on weekly participation in her worship and does consider it a sin to miss the Divine Liturgy for more than just a couple of weeks without a reason worthy of a blessing.  As such, I agree with those who on this thread call the contrasting Latin/Eastern views on this question a distinction without a difference.

I think of it this way:  Jesus commanded us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood and told us that we have no life in us unless we do so.  If I miss the Divine Liturgy for a few Sundays and end up banned from reception of His Flesh and Blood until I'm restored to Communion via confession, I've essentially deprived myself of the very Source of my life.  What can be more mortal than that?

[stashko]

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love...

[PeterTheAleut]

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love...

Yes, but love does put on us an obligation to die to ourselves so that we may live solely for our beloved.  Is that not what marriage is all about?

[stashko]

Even the Orthodox Christians that attend Church only on Great and Holy days,the clergy and the bishop probably know quite a lot them ,never pointing a finger towards them condemning them to hell they may give a sermon on receiving Holy communion regularly,,The clergy prays for them that the Holy Spirit moves them in the right direction unto repentance and reconciliation and a deepening of there Faith the church is there to heal us and intercede for us......

[PeterTheAleut]

Even the Orthodox christians that attend Church only on Great and Holy days,the clergy and the bishop prabably know quite a lot them ,never point a finger towards them condeming them to hell they may give a sermon on recieving Holy communion regularly,,The clergy prays for them that the Holy Spirit moves them in right direction unto repentance and reconciliation and a deepening of there Faith......

Yes, it is one thing to speak in general of how damaging failure to attend the Liturgy regularly can be, but it's another to point fingers and "condemn people to hell" for not attending.  I don't believe that any right-practicing Orthodox, or any pious Catholic for that matter, would make such a judgment.  (Heck, I think it's a wonderful thing to see the Easter-and-Christmas Christians in church that often, for at least they're coming to church.)

[WetCatechumen]

Even the Orthodox christians that attend Church only on Great and Holy days,the clergy and the bishop prabably know quite a lot them ,never point a finger towards them condeming them to hell they may give a sermon on recieving Holy communion regularly,,The clergy prays for them that the Holy Spirit moves them in right direction unto repentance and reconciliation and a deepening of there Faith......

Yes, it is one thing to speak in general of how damaging failure to attend the Liturgy regularly can be, but it's another to point fingers and "condemn people to hell" for not attending.  I don't believe that any right-practicing Orthodox, or any pious Catholic for that matter, would make such a judgment.  (Heck, I think it's a wonderful thing to see the Easter-and-Christmas Christians in church that often, for at least they're coming to church.)

While I would prefer that the Christmas and Easter Christians would attend more often, when faced with the massive secularization of our culture in the United States I too find myself happy that they are there at all.

[WetCatechumen]

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love...

I've always understood non-attendance of Mass being a mortal sin not being a threat, but a mere statement of fact. Some interpret it as a commandment of the church, which if violated, constitutes a mortal sin. However, we must remember that all mortal sins are ultimately matters of the heart. Hence, if my love for God in my heart fails to the point where for no just reason I cannot be bothered to spend an hour offering the Eucharistic sacrifice once weekly, then my soul is clearly in serious trouble regardless of whether or not I am violating a commandment of my bishop.

You said the Church is there to heal us - I agree. Weekly attendance at Mass is the prescription. If we fail to take the medicine of Eternal Life, why should we be surprised if we do not gain Eternal Life?

[PeterTheAleut]

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love...

I've always understood non-attendance of Mass being a mortal sin not being a threat, but a mere statement of fact. Some interpret it as a commandment of the church, which if violated, constitutes a mortal sin. However, we must remember that all mortal sins are ultimately matters of the heart. Hence, if my love for God in my heart fails to the point where for no just reason I cannot be bothered to spend an hour offering the Eucharistic sacrifice once weekly, then my soul is clearly in serious trouble regardless of whether or not I am violating a commandment of my bishop.

You said the Church is there to heal us - I agree. Weekly attendance at Mass is the prescription. If we fail to take the medicine of Eternal Life, why should we be surprised if we do not gain Eternal Life?

Very well said!

[WetCatechumen]

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love...

I've always understood non-attendance of Mass being a mortal sin not being a threat, but a mere statement of fact. Some interpret it as a commandment of the church, which if violated, constitutes a mortal sin. However, we must remember that all mortal sins are ultimately matters of the heart. Hence, if my love for God in my heart fails to the point where for no just reason I cannot be bothered to spend an hour offering the Eucharistic sacrifice once weekly, then my soul is clearly in serious trouble regardless of whether or not I am violating a commandment of my bishop.

You said the Church is there to heal us - I agree. Weekly attendance at Mass is the prescription. If we fail to take the medicine of Eternal Life, why should we be surprised if we do not gain Eternal Life?

Very well said!

Thank you!

However, I would like to add a caveat to what I said. Some who read this may misinterpret my saying "love" as the tender emotion which we often feel. While it is indeed commendable that we feel this emotion towards God (along with many other emotions), the lack of this emotion, which may result in us not feeling like attending our weekly Eucharist, is not necessarily a volitional sin. Certainly, I think that it is evidence of our sinful condition, but it only means that we must fight the flesh even stronger and attend Eucharist nonetheless.

I view each Sunday kind of like being an anniversary. Those of us who are lucky enough to be married (of whom I am not one) know that even if they are in a bad mood on the day of their anniversary, God help them if they forget to take their wife to dinner and give her a gift (or at least acknowledge the date in an appropriate manner). Just because the passion which exists between you and your wife is temporarily diminished does not mean that you love her any less. Likewise, not feeling like going to Divine Liturgy or Mass is all right. You still love God; it only proves that you love him all the more if you force yourself to go against your natural inclinations.